Questions To Preterists On Zechariah 14

[Terral]

Greetings to All:

This thread is dedicated to proving beyond all doubt that the context of Christ discourse in Matthew 24 concerns the fulfillment of the Prophecies of Zechariah 14 having absolutely nothing to do with the Romans in 70 AD. My hypothesis is that ‘this generation’ (Matt. 24:34) is the one seeing ‘all these things’ (Matt. 24:2, 8, 33+34), and witnessing the events of Zechariah 14:3-7. The title says "Questions To Preterists" but everyone is welcome to post here.


"Jesus came out from the temple and was going away when His disciples came up to point out the temple buildings to Him. And He said to them, "Do you not see all these things? Truly I say to you, not one stone here will be left upon another, which will not be torn down. As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?"


“Then the LORD will go forth and fight against those nations, as when He fights on a day of battle. In that day His feet [ Christ’s ] will stand on the Mount of Olives [ Matt. 24:30 ], which is in front of Jerusalem on the east; and the Mount of Olives [ where He is sitting: Matt. 24:3 ] will be split in its middle from east to west by a very large valley, so that half of the mountain will move toward the north and the other half toward the south.”

1.) When Christ was talking about all the stones being cast down (Matt. 24:2), do you believe it is possible He was speaking with reference to the fulfillment of Zechariah 14:3-7, and not anything related to the Romans? If no, why not?


2.) If you cannot believe that Christ was telling His Twelve (Matt. 24:3-31) about the fulfillment of this “end of the age” Prophecy (Zech. 14:3-7) in Matthew 24, then when do you believe this “Mount of Olives” event Zechariah describes shall be fulfilled?

3. ) What Scriptural evidence do you have that Christ is giving His discourse with the Romans of 70 AD in mind?

In Christ,

Terral

[Chief of Staff Lizard]

Greetings to All:

This thread is dedicated to proving beyond all doubt that the context of Christ discourse in Matthew 24 concerns the fulfillment of the Prophecies of Zechariah 14 having absolutely nothing to do with the Romans in 70 AD. My hypothesis is that ‘this generation’ (Matt. 24:34) is the one seeing ‘all these things’ (Matt. 24:2, 8, 33+34), and witnessing the events of Zechariah 14:3-7. The title says "Questions To Preterists" but everyone is welcome to post here.
Thank you Terral, and I really mean that. I am more than happy (eager in fact) to answer these questions in a thread dedicated to this topic.


In order to understand Zech. 14:3-7, lets back up a little to Zech. 13:7:


7"Awake, O sword, against my shepherd,
against the man who stands next to me,"
declares the LORD of hosts. "Strike the shepherd, and the sheep will be scattered;


I will turn my hand against the little ones.

Nearly all agree that this is the begining of a poem predicting the death of the Messiah. (Ref. Mark 14:27) Chapter 14 followes immediately after this poem, so from this context Chapter 14 follows the crucifiction. Again, almost all agree. The real question is how long after the crucifiction do the events in Zech. take place:

2For I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem to battle, and the city shall be taken and the houses plundered and the women raped. Half of the city shall go out into exile, but the rest of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

Notice that this is not talking about a 'world wide' tribulation, but a tribulation local to Jerusalem. But did this actually happen in AD 70? or is it a still future event?

Lets look at the passage in more detail:

"For I will gather all the nations"
[the Roman armies were populated by peoples from every country in the empire.] Ref Luke 2:1

"the houses plundered"
did this happen in AD 70? Yes. In fact it is alluded to in Mt. 24:17

"the women raped"
happened and was predicted by Jesus in Luke 17:35

"half the city exiled" "rest of the people cut off"
Yep. Mt. 24:16

Now let us look at v. 3
3Then the LORD will go out and fight against those nations as when he fights on a day of battle.The bold part assumes that the reader knows how the Lord fights against those nations that come against Jerusalem. So the question must be, when did He do that prior to Zech. and How?

Answer:

Isaiah 10:5-13 (ESV)
Ah, Assyria, the rod of my anger;
the staff in their hands is my fury!
[6] Against a godless nation I send him,
and against the people of my wrath I command him,
to take spoil and seize plunder,
and to tread them down like the mire of the streets.

[12] When the Lord has finished all his work on Mount Zion and on Jerusalem, he will punish the speech of the arrogant heart of the king of Assyria and the boastful look in his eyes.
[13] For he says:
"By the strength of my hand I have done it,
and by my wisdom, for I have understanding;
I remove the boundaries of peoples,
and plunder their treasures;
like a bull I bring down those who sit on thrones.[/quote] God used Assyria to punish Israel for her faithlessness. (v. 5-6) then God punishes Assyria for their arogance (v. 12-13)-the Assyrian empire declines after it invades Israel.

What happened in AD 70. God used Rome to punish Jerusalem for the ultimate faithlessness (rejecting her Messiah) with Rome. Rome experienced a steady decline thereafter.

This leads us to Terrals pet verse, Zech 14:4

[verse=Zech. 14:4]4On that day his feet shall stand on the Mount of Olives that lies before Jerusalem on the east, and the Mount of Olives shall be split in two from east to west by a very wide valley, so that one half of the Mount shall move northward, and the other half southward.

Notice that Terral insist that this is in reference to Jesus coming back. Yet no where in that verse does it refer to Jesus comeing down. In fact, On that day refers back to the day God exacts vengence on Jerusalem, which I have established as happening in AD70.

But when Terral ask, did the Mount of Olives split? Good question.

In the OT mountains are often used to represent nations, tribe, or people groups.

Amos 4:1 Amos 4:1 (ESV)
"Hear this word, you cows of Bashan,
who are on the mountain of Samaria,
who oppress the poor, who crush the needy,
who say to your husbands, 'Bring, that we may drink!'

Zech. 4:7 (ESV)
Who are you, O great mountain? Before Zerubbabel you shall become a plain. And he shall bring forward the top stone amid shouts of 'Grace, grace to it!' "

Daniel 2:35 & 44(ESV)
Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver, and the gold, all together were broken in pieces, and became like the chaff of the summer threshing floors; and the wind carried them away, so that not a trace of them could be found. But the stone that struck the image became a great mountain and filled the whole earth.

44 And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that shall never be destroyed, nor shall the kingdom be left to another people. It shall break in pieces all these kingdoms and bring them to an end, and it shall stand forever,

Just to mention a few.

In Micah 1:3-4 we are told of God coming down to destroy Jerusalem and the rest of Juday in terms of "mountains melting"

Micah 1:3-4 (ESV)
For behold, the Lord is coming out of his place,
and will come down and tread upon the high places of the earth.
[4] And the mountains will melt under him,
and the valleys will split open,
like wax before the fire,
like waters poured down a steep place

This happened in 605 BC. Did the mountains really mealt in 605 BC, did the valley really split? No. What really happened is that God used a foriegn army to destroy His rebelious people. In the same way Zech. is descrbing the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70.

As early as Tertullian, (AD 145-220) we see evidence of Christian writers who make a connection between Zech. 14:4 and the Olivet Discourse.

In AD 30 or thereabouts, Jerusalem reject thier Messiah, saying "we have no king but Ceasar". Is this act not deserving of judgment? And this is where we get the spliting of the Mt. of Olives (representing ethnic Israel).

Before AD 70 Christians were considered a sect of Judiasm. After AD 70, they were considered seperate. This, accordeing to Matthew Henry was. "the Jewish pale [being taken] down, and the church laid in common with the Gentiles, who were made one with the Jews by the breaking down of This middle wall of partition.

This is perfectly compatable with the preterist interpretation of Mt. 24:34.

Thanks,

:sig:


[Note: For a more detailed explanation of this veiw of Zech. 14 read Last Days Madness by Gary DeMar. Appendix 5: Zechariah 14 and the Coming of Christ. Most of the material in this post is a summary of this work.]

[Terral]

Faramir:
Faramir >> In order to understand Zech. 14:3-7, lets back up a little to Zech. 13:7:
No sir. We are limited by the context of the question the Twelve asked, and the only Old Testament reference to the “Mount of Olives,” which is given in the OP. The reason you are limited to Zechariah 14 is because of the way in which this chapter begins. “Behold, a day is coming for the LORD when the spoil taken from you will be divided among you.” Zech. 14:1. Zechariah has made a transition from chapter 13 to chapter 14 and to begin (Behold) describing ‘a day is coming for the Lord’ (day of the Lord). “Spoil taken from you and divided among you” is a reference to the Final Judgment.

“For to everyone who has, more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but from the one who does not have, even what he does have shall be taken away. Throw out the worthless slave into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. But when the Son of Man comes in His glory [ Matt. 24:30 ], and all the angels with Him [ Matt. 24:31 ], then He will sit on His glorious throne. All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.”

Your point is mute, because Christ did not come in judgment 2000 years ago, but to die for our sins. The Mount of Olives is still there (not split open), and obviously these prophecies are still future. (shepherd, poem, snip)
Faramir Quotes >> Zech. 14:2 ESV 2For I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem to battle, and the city shall be taken and the houses plundered and the women raped. Half of the city shall go out into exile, but the rest of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

Faramir Asks >> Notice that this is not talking about a 'world wide' tribulation, but a tribulation local to Jerusalem. But did this actually happen in AD 70? or is it a still future event?
Zechariah is describing things from the perspective of the Mount of Olives like Christ in Matthew 24. The battle of Armageddon consists of the armies of all the nations coming to the Middle East for the final battle. Zechariah says “all the nations” and not a nation. In this chapter he continues to prophecy about events that are fulfilled in Revelation 21:1+, and right through the ‘end of the age.’ All of these events are still future, as the Mount of Olives is split open to begin the fulfillment of these things that follow:

“In that day there will be no light; the luminaries will dwindle. For it will be a unique day which is known to the LORD, neither day nor night, but it will come about that at evening time there will be light. And in that day living waters will flow out of Jerusalem, half of them toward the eastern sea and the other half toward the western sea; it will be in summer as well as in winter. And the LORD will be king over all the earth; in that day the LORD will be the only one, and His name the only one.”
Faramir >> Lets look at the passage in more detail: "For I will gather all the nations" [the Roman armies were populated by peoples from every country in the empire.] Ref Luke 2:1
No sir. Countries exist at the ‘end of the age’ that never existed in 70 AD.. ‘All the nations’ includes the ‘kings of the east’ (Rev. 16:12) and everybody. “whole world” Rev. 3:10. Heh. Are you trying to say that the Romans had Chinamen in their army? The Romans hired mercenaries to fight with them. Do not pretend that foreigners simply populated themselves in the Roman army. Scripture also records that the EuphratesRiver will be dried up (Rev. 16:12) to pave the way for the eastern nations to enter the battle. Your watered down definition of ‘all the nations’ in no way fits the events of Revelation that describe these “Day of the Lord” events.
Faramir >> "the houses plundered" did this happen in AD 70? Yes. In fact it is alluded to in Mt. 24:17 "the women raped" happened and was predicted by Jesus in Luke 17:35 "half the city exiled" "rest of the people cut off" Yep. Mt. 24:16
This side of the debate acknowledges that there are minor similarities between the Roman destruction of Jerusalem and the end time Catastrophic events of the ‘end of the age.’ Did the Mount of Olives split open and divide like Zechariah says? No. That is still future at the ‘end of the age.’ What the Romans did 2000 years ago was a pin prick in comparison. We already concluded that the ‘Romans’ did it, and not ‘all the nations.’ You are comparing apples to oranges here.
Faramir >> Now let us look at v. 3 Zech. 14:3 ESV 3Then the LORD will go out and fight against those nations as when he fights on a day of battle. The bold part assumes that the reader knows how the Lord fights against those nations that come against Jerusalem. So the question must be, when did He do that prior to Zech. and How?
You just stumbled by saying, “against those nations,” when your interpretation says “Rome only.” John describes it like this:

“and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore. And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them.”
“Romans” is the name on one of the Apostle Paul’s Epistles, but Christ is returning to fight an army of ‘all the nations’ in the biggest battle this world has ever seen. “And the wine press was trodden outside the city, and blood came out from the wine press, up to the horses' bridles, for a distance of two hundred miles.” Rev. 14:20. The major point that the Preterists fail to realize here is that the Gentile nations are supposed to lose the coming Battle against the Lord. There was not even a battle in 70 AD, because Israel was already defeated and occupied by the Romans. You are Pretending that Christ came back in 70 AD and fought with the Romans and lost! (Assyrian, treasures, snip)
Faramir >> What happened in AD 70. God used Rome to punish Jerusalem for the ultimate faithlessness (rejecting her Messiah) with Rome. Rome experienced a steady decline thereafter.
They what? You are trying to reconcile massive amounts of Bible prophecy relating to the ‘day of the Lord’ and the ‘end of the age’ with a partial and inadequate knowledge of Roman history. (http://www.geocities.com/delerius2001/Timeline.htm (http://www.geocities.com/delerius2001/Timeline.htm) ). The Colosseum was completed a decade after the destruction of Rome with Nerva becoming Emperor in 96 AD. The death of Marcus Aurelius does not occur for almost a century in 180 AD. The Arch of Septimus Severus was constructed in 204 AD, and 134 years after you have Rome in steady decline. Constantine did not become sole emperor, until 324 AD., and Theodosius made Christianity the state religion just before 400 AD. The Roman Empire was around after the destruction of Jerusalem longer than the USA has been a nation under God.
Faramir Quotes >> Zech. 14:4 4On that day his feet shall stand on the Mount of Olives that lies before Jerusalem on the east, and the Mount of Olives shall be split in two from east to west by a very wide valley, so that one half of the Mount shall move northward, and the other half southward.

Faramir’s Commentary >> Notice that Terral insist that this is in reference to Jesus coming back. Yet no where in that verse does it refer to Jesus coming down. In fact, On that day refers back to the day God exacts vengence on Jerusalem, which I have established as happening in AD70.
What? Did you forget what you just wrote about above as commentary for Zech. 14:3? “Then the LORD will go forth and fight against those nations, as when He fights on a day of battle.” Before you were trying to prove that ‘those nations’ were part of the Roman Army. Now you are transforming Jerusalem into ‘those nations.’ What’s next?
Faramir Continues >> But when Terral ask, did the Mount of Olives split? Good question. In the OT mountains are often used to represent nations, tribe, or people groups.
Heh. “Often used” to is your argument? :lmbo:

Please forgive, while I pick myself back up off the floor . . . No sir. The Mount of Olives is the same Mount of Olives where Christ is seated while giving this discourse in Matthew 24. Your mountain = people argument is not worth any reply, as anyone believing that is far beyond the reach of anything I could possibly say. (crush needy, trace found, steep place, 605 BC, snip)
Faramir >> Did the mountains really mealt in 605 BC, did the valley really split? No. What really happened is that God used a foriegn army to destroy His rebelious people. In the same way Zech. is descrbing the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70.
Now you are really being foolish. Perhaps this is the very first time you have read Zechariah 14 or something. The Lord is the one fighting the nations and overcoming them. That is how we go into the next age throughout this chapter (same as Revelation exactly). You have the Lord fighting the nations and losing, by some distorted mental image of what you think Zechariah is describing. Zechariah and John in Revelation are describing the same things. Christ is describing the events leading up to “Your coming” and the “end of the age” in Matthew 24. Romans have NOTHING whatsoever to do with these prophecies. If they did, then the Lord would be defeating them anyway. (Tertullian, snip).
Faramir >> This is perfectly compatable with the preterist interpretation of Mt. 24:34.
Heh. Do you know what? And I believe you too. The Preterists here will take that story hook, line and sinker. I do not see many futurists switching to adopt your interpretation any time soon. Good luck working out those inconsistencies. Most Preterists run from this kind of challenge, and I admire you for at least trying to reconcile these things with something from the Text.

In Christ,

Terral

[Chief of Staff Lizard]

Faramir:

No sir. We are limited by the context of the question the Twelve asked, and the only Old Testament reference to the “Mount of Olives,” which is given in the OP.



What???? Are you really saying you can not get an idea of the context of Zech. 14 by reading the preceding chapter. You realize, I assmue that the chapter heading were not in the original and are artificially created by man, and not inspired.



I also hope you realize that when you say that we are limited in how we can interpret Zech. by the Disciples questions, you are basically saying that there was no valid interpretation when Zech. was first written, hundreds of years before the disciples first question.



I hope you realize that the topic of this thread when I agreed to post here was Zech. 14 and not Mt. 24.



Showing how Zech 14 and Mt. 24 line up within your own interpretation is good suport of your argument. However, trying to force me to accept your interpreation of Mt. 24. into my interpreation of Zech. 14 is begging the question.

The reason you are limited to Zechariah 14 is because of the way in which this chapter begins. “Behold, a day is coming for the LORD when the spoil taken from you will be divided among you.” Zech. 14:1. Zechariah has made a transition from chapter 13 to chapter 14 and to begin (Behold) describing ‘a day is coming for the Lord’ (day of the Lord). “Spoil taken from you and divided among you” is a reference to the Final Judgment.



I agree that there is a transition. From talking about the death of Jesus to talking about the coming judgment. But to say we are limmited in our understanding of Zech. 14 because there is a transition at 14:1 is quite an over statement. The transition does not negate my point. My point is that there is a natural flow from 13 to 14 though there is a change in focus.



“For to everyone who has, more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but from the one who does not have, even what he does have shall be taken away. Throw out the worthless slave into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. But when the Son of Man comes in His glory [ Matt. 24:30 ], and all the angels with Him [ Matt. 24:31 ], then He will sit on His glorious throne. All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.”

Your point is mute, because Christ did not come in judgment 2000 years ago, but to die for our sins.



No sir. Your point is mute (though I think the term is moot) Christ came and did both. He came and died for the sins of the elect. But He also came in judgment against Jerusalem for rejecting Him.



All you did was throw out bible verses and assert that Christ did not come in judgment. What I did was throw out bible verses. Explain why I interpreted them the way I did. I have no idea why you beleive these verse support your position.



If you really want this discussion to get deeper than assertions. You really need to do more in depth explaining.



But exchanging assertions is not prodictive debate.



The Mount of Olives is still there (not split open), and obviously these prophecies are still future. (shepherd, poem, snip)



Come on Terral. I explained that the Mt. of Olives splitting open was symbolic. I provided numerous examples of Mountians being used symbolically to represent nations.



Asserting that the Mt. of Olives is still there dosn't address my points. It just asserts your position.



I beleive that the splitting of Mt. of O. is symbolic. I explained why useing similar prophecies that we know have already been fulfilled.



You didn't even address that. Other than to say the Mt. of O. is still there. :duh: I knew that.



In order to actually address my point you need to a) give a reason why the Zech. prophecy is different from the previous prophecies that have already been fulfilled. or b) show that the prophecies that I gave are also literal, and have either been fulfilled literraly or are still future.



Hint: I would go for a) since the overwhelming majority of scholarship both futurist and preterist (and historicist) agree that the Isa. prophecy was fulfilled when Jerusalem fell to Babylon.





“In that day there will be no light; the luminaries will dwindle. For it will be a unique day which is known to the LORD, neither day nor night, but it will come about that at evening time there will be light. And in that day living waters will flow out of Jerusalem, half of them toward the eastern sea and the other half toward the western sea; it will be in summer as well as in winter. And the LORD will be king over all the earth; in that day the LORD will be the only one, and His name the only one.”

No sir. Countries exist at the ‘end of the age’ that never existed in 70 AD.. ‘All the nations’ includes the ‘kings of the east’ (Rev. 16:12) and everybody. “whole world” Rev. 3:10.



In those days a decree went out from Caesar Augustus that all the world should be registered.



Indeed they have, for "Their voice has gone out to all the earth, and their words to the ends of the world."



because of the hope laid up for you in heaven. Of this you have heard before in the word of the truth, the gospel, 6which has come to you, as indeed in the whole world it is bearing fruit and growing--as it also does among you, since the day you heard it and understood the grace of God in truth,



First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for all of you, because your faith is proclaimed in all the world.



Heh. Are you trying to say that the Romans had Chinamen in their army?



Heh. Are you trying to say that Caesar Augustus sent a decree to China? Are you trying to say that at the time Paul wrote Romans that the words of Christians had reached the Aztec? Are you trying to say that Zulu’s were aware of the Gospel in AD 67? Are you trying to say that the faith of the Roman Christians was know in ancient Japan?



No sir. What I am trying to say is that Zech. was written by an ancient Jew, to an original audience that was composed of ancient Jews. And when he used the phrase “whole world” he meant it in a way that other ancient Jews used the phrase, not in the way the 21st century Americans use the phrase.



Are you trying to say that Zech. was writing with 21st century Americans in mind and meant by “whole world” what we mean by “whole world”? That the scripture really had no meaning until it was translated into English where “whole world” means the entire planet Earth? That though first century readers would understand Zech.’s use of “whole world” to be the “known inhabited world at that time” he really meant something that only English speakers in the 21st century would understand?



Your watered down definition of ‘all the nations’ in no way fits the events of Revelation that describe these “Day of the Lord” events.



Wrong. I consistently apply the phrase all the nations to mean the same thing every time it is used in scripture. You are the one who changes the definition to match your interpretation.



But every nation still made gods of its own and put them in the shrines of the high places that the Samaritans had made, every nation in the cities in which they lived.



Did the Chinese erect idols in Samaria? Did the Hindus? Did the Aztec?



This side of the debate acknowledges that there are minor similarities between the Roman destruction of Jerusalem and the end time Catastrophic events of the ‘end of the age.’ Did the Mount of Olives split open and divide like Zechariah says? No.



What you failed to acknowledge is that this side of the debate has given reasons as to why Zech 14’s reference to the Mt. Of O is symbolic. You’ve ask questions I have already answered. Did the Mount of O. split open and divide like Zechariah says? Yes. According to the symbolic interpretation that I provided.



Was not Jerusalem destroyed in AD 70? Did not the Jewish (apostate) community split from the true faith of Christianity? Yes and yes. These things are actual documented historic events.



When you ask these types of questions you are totally ignoring the points I made. Instead of addressing why my interpretation is wrong you ask:



Did this thing happen the way my interpretation says it would? The answer is always going to be no, because you’re interpretation has all these events in the future.



Please do not ask again “Did X happen”? I believe it did you believe it didn’t. This gets us no where. Instead address why you believe that X is still future according to the passage. I have shown why I think it is past. You have just asserted that it is still future.





They what? You are trying to reconcile massive amounts of Bible prophecy relating to the ‘day of the Lord’ and the ‘end of the age’ with a partial and inadequate knowledge of Roman history. (http://www.geocities.com/delerius2001/Timeline.htm (http://www.geocities.com/delerius2001/Timeline.htm) ). The Colosseum was completed a decade after the destruction of Rome with Nerva becoming Emperor in 96 AD. The death of Marcus Aurelius does not occur for almost a century in 180 AD. The Arch of Septimus Severus was constructed in 204 AD, and 134 years after you have Rome in steady decline. Constantine did not become sole emperor, until 324 AD., and Theodosius made Christianity the state religion just before 400 AD. The Roman Empire was around after the destruction of Jerusalem longer than the USA has been a nation under God.



You know I almost didn’t put that part in about the decline of the Roman Empire, because it is the hardest to defend, plus even if it is not true, my argument does not stand or fall on the decline of the Roman Empire after AD 70. It is just icing on the cake.



It is interesting that this is the only point of mine you actually address. And the best you can come up with is, “Well they made some really cool buildings after AD 70, so they could not be in decline”. However, whether or not Rome declined after AD 70 is tangential to the argument. So, I will remove that portion of my argument from consideration. This leaves you free to address the rest of my points which are much more substantial.



I must also confess an overstatement my statement was based on :



"It is also observable, that the Romans after having been thus made the executioners of divine vengeance on the Jewish nation, never prospered as they had done before; but the Lord evidently fought against them, and all the nations which composed their overgrown empire; till at last it was subverted, and their fairest cities and provinces were ravaged by barbarous invaders."



So when I said, “...a slow and steady decline thereafter”, it was an overstatement of my position.



What? Did you forget what you just wrote about above as commentary for Zech. 14:3? “Then the LORD will go forth and fight against those nations, as when He fights on a day of battle.” Before you were trying to prove that ‘those nations’ were part of the Roman Army. Now you are transforming Jerusalem into ‘those nations.’ What’s next?



Read it again partner. I said that after Rome destroys Jerusalem, God exacts vengeance on “those nations” that destroyed Jerusalem i.e. Rome. :sigh:

Heh. “Often used” to is your argument?



Yes. And the above is your rebuttal. I showed other placed in Scripture used Mountains symbolically. What did Terral provide to support his contention that for some reason Zech. 14 is different than all the other prophecies:









You’ll have to do better than that to convince third party readers.



Please forgive, while I pick myself back up off the floor . . . No sir. The Mount of Olives is the same Mount of Olives where Christ is seated while giving this discourse in Matthew 24. Your mountain = people argument is not worth any reply, as anyone believing that is far beyond the reach of anything I could possibly say



Not worth a reply. I hope that the non-reply is enough to convince third party readers. I have found however, that third party readers see an unrefuted point as proven until refuted. And if it is so easily refuted, why not come out and do it. Heck, if it is a simple as you let on, you might even convince me.

Otherwise. Don't be surprised if I bring it up again. Because if you won't refute it, then I am going to assume you can't refute it.


I showed where scripture referred to mountains melting and valleys splitting in reference to known historical events where the mountains neither melted nor the valleys actually split. You are saying that Zech. couldn’t have possibly using the same sort of symbolism as Isaiah et al. Why not? Why is this so unworthy of a response?



Now you are really being foolish. Perhaps this is the very first time you have read Zechariah 14 or something. The Lord is the one fighting the nations and overcoming them.



No sir it is you who are being foolish (must we use such pejorative words?). Perhaps you have never read Isaiah 10:5-6 (even though I posted it in my last post in this thread :sigh: ):



Isaiah 10:5-13 (ESV)
Ah, Assyria, the rod of my anger;
the staff in their hands is my fury!
[6] Against a godless nation I send him,
and against the people of my wrath I command him,
to take spoil and seize plunder,
and to tread them down like the mire of the streets



How does God “go against a nation”? He uses armies of other nations. My interpretation is perfectly consistent with all the OT prophecies that have been fulfilled.



They use mountains symbolically. I use mountains symbolically. They say that God uses armies to bring judgment. I say God uses armies to bring judgment.



The futurist has to treat all prophecies that we all agree have been fulfilled differently from those that they think are still future. Preterism on the other hand is consistent in the way we interpret scripture.



That is how we go into the next age throughout this chapter (same as Revelation exactly). You have the Lord fighting the nations and losing, by some distorted mental image of what you think Zechariah is describing.



No sir. You obviously did not read my post too carefully because I never said that the Lord fought a loosing battle. Show me where I said that.



This is the second time you attributed something to me that I did not say.



Zechariah and John in Revelation are describing the same things. Christ is describing the events leading up to “Your coming” and the “end of the age” in Matthew 24.



Why do insist on stating the obvious. We both agree that they are talking about the same thing. The disagreement is what exactly this “thing” is they are talking about.



Heh. Do you know what? And I believe you too. The Preterists here will take that story hook, line and sinker. I do not see many futurists switching to adopt your interpretation any time soon.



Nor do I see many futurist switching to adopt yours.



Good luck working out those inconsistencies.



No sir. Good luck to you working out your inconsistencies. My interpretation my be inconsistent with futurism. But it is most definitely consistent within itself and within the rest of scripture.



Futurism is only consistent within itself. That is why they interpret mountains as symbolic in one place but not another. That is why they interpret “whole world” as “known inhabited lane” differently in different passages. That is why they interpret “this generation” two totally different ways. But then I digress. That is just an off topic rant. Feel free to ignore.



Most Preterists run from this kind of challenge, and I admire you for at least trying to reconcile these things with something from the Text.

Come Terral. Most preterist? You admitted that TWeb is the first time you ever heard of preterism. How many preterist do you know? And how many of them have run?





In Christ,



:sig:

[Xavier]

:bump: Reminding Terral that he has even more unanswered points to deal with...

Go get him :faramir:... :hehe:

[Terral]

Faramir:(I posted this directly from notepad with no coding at all, and everything is bold . . . )Faramir >> I also hope you realize that when you say that we are limited in how we can interpret Zech. by the Disciples questions, you are basically saying that there was no valid interpretation when Zech. was first written, hundreds of years before the disciples first question.Christ is describing the events leading up to the fulfillment of Zech. 14 here in Matthew 24. Nobody in Zechariah’s day knew that the Lord (Zech. 14:3) was our Lord Jesus Christ, as He had yet to become flesh and dwell among us. Your statement above amounts to more Preterist nonsense. Zechariah is describing the Mount of Olives being split in half, with one part going north and the other part going south. Christ was sitting at this very spot while giving His Olivet Discourse. You can continue to be in denial of this truth all you like, but that his your problem and not mine. Zechariah is describing the ‘end of the age’ and our transition into the new heavens and new earth of Rev. 21:1+. When do you believe the prophecies of Zechariah 14 will be fulfilled?Faramir >> I hope you realize that the topic of this thread when I agreed to post here was Zech. 14 and not Mt. 24The topic of this thread is outlined in the OP. The quoted verses are Matthew 24:1-3 and Zechariah 14:3+4. Preterists on this site want this topic to go away, because these things are a source of embarrassment for their theology. I do not expect to see a long line of those believing in Preterism to post on this thread. Already we see signs that your arguments are very weak, by your attempts to limit my participation on my own thread. You Preterists have some nerve . . .Faramir >> Showing how Zech 14 and Mt. 24 line up within your own interpretation is good suport of your argument. However, trying to force me to accept your interpreation of Mt. 24. into my interpreation of Zech. 14 is begging the question.My goal is to present a good series of arguments to the third party reader showing that Christ is describing end of the age events leading up to the fulfillment of Zechariah 14 in Matthew 24. This is the only mention of the “Mount of Olives” in the Old Testament, and our Lord Jesus Christ is sitting on this very spot (Matt. 24:3) giving this Olivet Discourse. Christ’s feet are “His feet” in Zechariah 14:3, and Christ’s feet are on the mountain when giving testimony concerning all of these “end of the age” events to the Twelve in Matthew 24. Go ahead and try to convince everybody that these two passages are totally unrelated, when both apply to the ‘end of the age.’ Heh . . . I can hardly wait.Terral Original >> The reason you are limited to Zechariah 14 is because of the way in which this chapter begins. “Behold, a day is coming for the LORD when the spoil taken from you will be divided among you.” Zech. 14:1. Zechariah has made a transition from chapter 13 to chapter 14 and to begin (Behold) describing ‘a day is coming for the Lord’ (day of the Lord). “Spoil taken from you and divided among you” is a reference to the Final Judgment.

Faramir >> I agree that there is a transition. From talking about the death of Jesus to talking about the coming judgment. But to say we are limmited in our understanding of Zech. 14 because there is a transition at 14:1 is quite an over statement. The transition does not negate my point. My point is that there is a natural flow from 13 to 14 though there is a change in focus.Please . . . Of course there is a flow, as these are consecutive chapters of Zechariah. The events in Zechariah 14 are ‘end of the age’ events, while those in chapter 13 are not. The people are still being ‘refined’ in Zech. 13:9, but the language to start chapter 14 is of judgment and the gathering of the nations. The Mount of Olives is split in verses 3 and 4, and we have light in the evening time in Zech. 14:7. Do not try to Pretend that Zech. 13 and 14 are describing the same thing, as there is an obvious ‘end of the age’ transition in Chapter 14.

Terral Quoted >> “For to everyone who has, more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but from the one who does not have, even what he does have shall be taken away. Throw out the worthless slave into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. But when the Son of Man comes in His glory [ Matt. 24:30 ], and all the angels with Him [ Matt. 24:31 ], then He will sit on His glorious throne. All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.” Matt. 25:29-32.

Terral Original >> Your point is mute, because Christ did not come in judgment 2000 years ago, but to die for our sins. The Mount of Olives is still there (not split open), and obviously these prophecies are still future.

Faramir >> No sir. Your point is mute (though I think the term is moot) Christ came and did both. He came and died for the sins of the elect. But He also came in judgment against Jerusalem for rejecting Him.Yes sir; I meant moot, but Christ is judging all the nations in Matthew 25 above. Again you are comparing apples and oranges as always when your arguments make no sense. Christ’s coming in Matthew 24+25 is the same ‘coming,’ as there is only one “Your coming” in Matthew 24:3. The funny thing is that you seek to connect Zechariah 13+14 but REFUSE to connect the events of Matthew 24 and 25 even though they BOTH clearly show Christ’s coming with His angels in glory. In both cases you must remain in complete denial of the evidence to continue believing in this Preterism, which is more important to you than accepting the simple truth. At some point I leave you to your own delusions to help others who will listen to common sense.Faramir >> All you did was throw out bible verses and assert that Christ did not come in judgment. What I did was throw out bible verses. Explain why I interpreted them the way I did. I have no idea why you beleive these verse support your position.That is because of the blindness that goes along with your Preterism that allows you to connect Christ’s coming (Matt. 24+25) as being one and the same. The Mount of Olives is split (Zech. 14:3+4) between Christ appearing in the clouds (Matt. 24:30) and His Judgment of the nations in Matt. 25:31-33.
Faramir >> If you really want this discussion to get deeper than assertions. You really need to do more in depth explaining.Do not be foolish, Faramir. I am explaining my interpretation of the passages under discussion on this thread, and you are doing the same thing. The fact that you disagree with me in no way makes my view an assertion. Scripture is saying exactly what I am saying, whether you agree with me or not. Go ahead and tell everybody when Zechariah 14 is fulfilled, because it OBVIOUSLY has not happened yet to date. My view is that the Mount of Olives is destroyed at the ‘end of the age,’ when Christ comes to Judge the Living (Matt. 25:31-33) and the dead (Rev. 20:11-15). Matthew 24 AND 25 are descriptions of the ‘SAME COMING’ of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is most definitely still future. The interpretation that Christ came and Judged everybody in 70 AD is definitely a MERE ASSUMPTION. You have no evidence to support your bogus interpretation whatsoever.Terral Original >> The Mount of Olives is still there (not split open), and obviously these prophecies are still future. (shepherd, poem, snip)

Faramir >> Come on Terral. I explained that the Mt. of Olives splitting open was symbolic. I provided numerous examples of Mountians being used symbolically to represent nations.This is not an example of mountains, but Zechariah describing the same and specific “Mount of Olives” where Christ is seated giving His Olivet Discourse. Nobody believes your nonsense. The Bible is saying exactly what I am saying word for word, and you would rather defend your man-made interpretation and theology than accept the truth. This is what I mean by Preterists believing whatever they wish for no reason; even though we show them the Biblical proofs that say otherwise. And then you cast stones at me for showing you the truth. If you cannot see the sickness in all that, then you are too far gone to be helped by anyone teaching the truth. (ridiculous dribble, hint, China, Zulu, 21st century, snip)

No sir. I am not snipping anymore of your foolishness. The facts in this case are clear and you are resorting to everything other than addressing the facts in this case to bring up everything else. The more we discuss these things, then the less regard I have for those adhering to the Preterist theology. Instead of offering me an answer on when Zechariah 14 is fulfilled, you expect me to buy your ‘symbolic’ interpretation to mean that the whole chapter means nothing while Pretending that it simply does not exist. My interpretation of Scripture accounts for every passage, sentence, verse and syllable while accounting for all of the prophecies for the end of the age and the day of the Lord. Preterism is a theology that tries in vain to connect the end of the age prophecies to ‘The Romans Did It in 70 AD’ historical events. I continue to be truly amazed that a group of thinking human beings can believe the day of the Lord is already in the past, when Paul says we are taken when the day of the Lord is ‘at hand.’ 2Thes. 2:2.

In Christ,

Terral


Howdy Terral...

There was a parsing error with Faramir's post above. I have corrected it. I've also removed the quote tag that surrounded this post, so Faramir could easily reply.

[Chief of Staff Lizard]

Faramir:(I posted this directly from notepad with no coding at all, and everything is bold . . . ) Thanks a lot. I really mean it. I have never said anything about your coding (I don't think) though others have. But it is sometimes difficult to respond with all that coding.

Again. Thanks.
Faramir >> I also hope you realize that when you say that we are limited in how we can interpret Zech. by the Disciples questions, you are basically saying that there was no valid interpretation when Zech. was first written, hundreds of years before the disciples first question.
Christ is describing the events leading up to the fulfillment of Zech. 14 here in Matthew 24. Nobody in Zechariah’s day knew that the Lord (Zech. 14:3) was our Lord Jesus Christ, as He had yet to become flesh and dwell among us. But Terral. They were expecting a Missiah were they not? They had an idea what was coming. Did they not? If we follow your logic, and if your interpretation is true, you can't have a valid interpreation of future events. Or do you have more insight into scripture than the Jews of Zechariah's day?

Your statement above amounts to more Preterist nonsense.
Terral. Your statement above amounts to more Futurist nonsense. :sigh: Is this really the way to have productive dialog? :no:
Zechariah is describing the Mount of Olives being split in half, with one part going north and the other part going south. Christ was sitting at this very spot while giving His Olivet Discourse. You can continue to be in denial of this truth all you like, but that his your problem and not mine. I actually agree with you up to this point. Our real differences lies on when we think Zech. 14 and Mt. 24 were fullfilled. That is why it would be off topic to drag Mt. 24 into this debate. Let's stick to Zech 14.

Zechariah is describing the ‘end of the age’ and our transition into the new heavens and new earth of Rev. 21:1.
Here Terral is a perfect example of you making an assertion. You assert that Zech. is in reference to Rev. 21:1. I have no idea why you belive this. Assertion is saying what you beleive. Argumentation is saying why you belive it.

When do you believe the prophecies of Zechariah 14 will be fulfilled? I already said they were fulfilled in AD 70. Didn't you read my post??????? :stare:

Faramir >> I hope you realize that the topic of this thread when I agreed to post here was Zech. 14 and not Mt. 24The topic of this thread is outlined in the OP. The quoted verses are Matthew 24:1-3 and Zechariah 14:3+4. The thread title is questions on Zech 14. When I began posting in this thread. It was my understanding that that would be the topic. :shrug:
I was under the impression, based on the thread title, that you only brought up Mt. 24 to indicate that Mt. 24 and Zech. 14 are parallel, and that by supporting your interpretation of Zech 14, you would support your interpretation of Mt. 24.
Preterists on this site want this topic to go away, because these things are a source of embarrassment for their theology. Give me a break Terral both Xavier and I had to practically beg you to answer my last post. This statement is dishonest at best and borders on outright lieing.

I do not expect to see a long line of those believing in Preterism to post on this thread. There is no need for more than one preterist per thread to refute you.

Already we see signs that your arguments are very weak, by your attempts to limit my participation on my own thread.
Wrong. You can participate in any way you want to Terral. I was stating what I was willing to talk about. You can bring up Mt. 24 all you want. I will just link to other post on Tweb, where I have already answered your questionson that passage and restrict my answers in this thread to Zech. 14.

IOW. You are free to bring up any subject you want. I am free to answer only Zech. 14 issues.

Faramir >> Showing how Zech 14 and Mt. 24 line up within your own interpretation is good suport of your argument. However, trying to force me to accept your interpreation of Mt. 24. into my interpreation of Zech. 14 is begging the question.My goal is to present a good series of arguments to the third party reader showing that Christ is describing end of the age events leading up to the fulfillment of Zechariah 14 in Matthew 24. This is the only mention of the “Mount of Olives” in the Old Testament, and our Lord Jesus Christ is sitting on this very spot (Matt. 24:3) giving this Olivet Discourse. Christ’s feet are “His feet” in Zechariah 14:3, and Christ’s feet are on the mountain when giving testimony concerning all of these “end of the age” events to the Twelve in Matthew 24. Go ahead and try to convince everybody that these two passages are totally unrelated, when both apply to the ‘end of the age.’ Heh . . . I can hardly wait :argh: They are related. And I have said as much in this thread. Go ahead and try to convince everybody that I didn't
Zechariah and John in Revelation are describing the same things. Christ is describing the events leading up to “Your coming” and the “end of the age” in Matthew 24.Why do insist on stating the obvious. We both agree that they are talking about the same thing. The disagreement is what exactly this “thing” is they are talking about.

This is like the third time in this post that you stressed that Mt. 24 and Zech 14 are talking about the same eventsIf you want a mutual agreement thread keep it up. If you want a debate, then focus on the topic of what the proper interpretation of Zech 14 is.
<snip> more stuff Terral and I agree on.

Spoil taken from you and divided among you” is a reference to the Final Judgment.
Another example of assertion. Why do you think that this verse is in reference to the Final Judgment?

<snip> reference to Mt. 24 which I have addressed here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?t=43767) and here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?t=45484), and several other threads. <snip>

<snip> off topic question about Mt. 25 which makarios answers here. (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?t=41881)
Faramir >> If you really want this discussion to get deeper than assertions. You really need to do more in depth explaining.Do not be foolish, Faramir. I am explaining my interpretation of the passages under discussion on this thread, and you are doing the same thing. The fact that you disagree with me in no way makes my view an assertion. I have shown two assertions in this thread, and I probably sniped that many as well. I really think you believe that you are presenting arguments, but you are not . In fact, you prove this with your very next assertion.

Scripture is saying exactly what I am saying, whether you agree with me or not. Assertion. I think scripture is saying exactly what I am saying. I provided several examples of known fulfilled prophecies similar to Zech. to show why I belive what I belive. All you did was assert that you are right. It is right there above, in black and white, for everyone to see.
Go ahead and tell everybody when Zechariah 14 is fulfilled, because it OBVIOUSLY has not happened yet to date. My interpretation of Zech. OBVIOUSLY has happened. You see I can assert too. But check out post #2 in this thread for my reasoning.
My view is that the Mount of Olives is destroyed at the ‘end of the age,’ when Christ comes to Judge the Living (Matt. 25:31-33) and the dead (Rev. 20:11-15). Matthew 24 AND 25 are descriptions of the ‘SAME COMING’ of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is most definitely still future. Yet another assertion.

The interpretation that Christ came and Judged everybody in 70 AD is definitely a MERE ASSUMPTION. No sir. That is clearly not true. It is a well supported assumption. I provided several supporting statements in post #2. What was your response?

Your mountain = people argument is not worth any reply That is not a refutation. That is an assertion. Tell, me why you think my mountian=people argument is no good. If it is that obvious it should be simple.

My guess is that the only reason Terral has is that it does not fit his interpretation. If that is the case then maybe Terral needs to change his interpretation.


You have no evidence to support your bogus interpretation whatsoever.
I provided the evidence in post #2. You saying that it is not there does not change that. This is yet another assertion that anyone reading this thread can see is false. I provided evidence. You did not address it. I think it is good evidence, but even bad evidence unrefuted will be accepted over unsupported assertions (like my evidence is not worthy of a response). Thank you for giving me such an easy victory in the all important third party reader catagory.

Terral Original >> The Mount of Olives is still there (not split open), and obviously these prophecies are still future. (shepherd, poem, snip)

Faramir >> Come on Terral. I explained that the Mt. of Olives splitting open was symbolic. I provided numerous examples of Mountians being used symbolically to represent nations.This is not an example of mountains, but Zechariah describing the same and specific “Mount of Olives” where Christ is seated giving His Olivet Discourse. Nobody believes your nonsense. Nobody? Not even me? Not even Gary DeMar, who I used as a major source for this?
When you make assertions like this that are clearly false, it makes your other assertions even less believable. Keep it up.
The Bible is saying exactly what I am saying word for word, and you would rather defend your man-made interpretation and theology than accept the truth. I could assert the same thing about you. I would rather debate.

This is what I mean by Preterists believing whatever they wish for no reason; even though we show them the Biblical proofs that say otherwise. What proofs? Assumptions are not proofs. I provided proof. It may be poor proof, but until you actually attempt to refute it, no one will ever know.
And then you cast stones at me for showing you the truth. Does anyone else see the irony. He accuses me of casting stone then follows it with this statement about how sick and far gone I am:
No sir. I am not snipping anymore of your foolishness.
More not addressing my points. The facts in this case are clear and you are resorting to everything other than addressing the facts in this case to bring up everything else. What points? All you have are assertions. The only one who has made any points in this thread is me!!! Points which you deemed unworthy of response. Again, anyone else see the irony?

The more we discuss these things, then the less regard I have for those adhering to the Preterist theology. Instead of offering me an answer on when Zechariah 14 is fulfilled, AD 70 for the umpteent time.
you expect me to buy your ‘symbolic’ interpretation to mean that the whole chapter means nothing I expect a compitent debater to try to refute why it is not symolic. I expect you to assert you are right and not to address my points. So far you have not let me down.

By the way. I have great respect for Scripture. Please do not accuse a fellow believer of thinking that a passage means nothing just becuase it was meant to be taken symbolically. That should be benieth you!!! I told you what I think it means in post #2.

My interpretation of Scripture accounts for every passage, sentence, verse and syllable while accounting for all of the prophecies for the end of the age and the day of the Lord. MIne does too. Your interpretation has plenty of symbolism (ie the parable of the fig tree). I would never accuse you of thinking that that verse means nothing.
Preterism is a theology that tries in vain to connect the end of the age prophecies to ‘The Romans Did It in 70 AD’ historical events.
Preterism is a sound exegitacally accurate interpretation of scripture. I can assert too, it proves nothing. I have made my points in post #2, points which you by your own admission you have not addressed.

I continue to be truly amazed that a group of thinking human beings can believe the day of the Lord is already in the past, when Paul says we are taken when the day of the Lord is ‘at hand.’ 2Thes. 2:2. There is more than one day of the Lord. But that is a topic for another thread.

Your brother in Christ,
[Faramir]

I've cleaned up the coding in here again. It's not your fault Faramir. The posts you were quoting of Terral's were causing the problem. Several of them contained malformed font calls.

[Just The Facts]

Hi

There are several points that show WITHOUT A DOUBT that this was not 70 AD.

Since it is the position of the preterist that Zech 14 was 70 AD then the armies that surround Jerusalem must have been the Roman Legions.

So when did this happen..................

12: And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

So on what Date did the Armies of Rome get consumed by a plague where they stood.

Preterism is the False Doctrine of the last days in 2 Peter 3

3: Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4: And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. 5: For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: 6: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: 7: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. 8: But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9: The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
10: But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

I think Justin Martyr explained amill/preterism best

Justin Martyr: Second Apology
[Dialogue with Trypho]
Chap. LXXX

Moreover, I pointed out to you that some who are called Christians, but are godless, impious heretics, teach doctrines that are in every way blasphemous, atheistical, and foolish. But that you may know that I do not say this before you alone, I shall draw up a statement, so far as I can, of all the arguments which have passed between us; in which I shall record myself as admitting the very same things which I admit to you.(3) For I choose to follow not men or men's doctrines, but God and the doctrines[delivered] by Him. For if you have fallen in with some who are called Christians, but who do not admit this[truth],(4) and venture to blaspheme the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob; who say there is no resurrection of the dead, and that their souls, when they die, are taken to heaven; do not imagine that they are Christians, even as one, if he would rightly consider it, would not admit that the Sadducees, or similar sects of Genistæ, Meristae,(5)Gelilaeans, Hellenists,(6) Pharisees, Baptists, are Jews(do not hear me impatiently when I tell you what I think), but are[only] called Jews and children of Abraham, worshipping God with the lips, as God Himself declared, but the heart was far from Him. But I and others, who are right-minded Christians on all points, are assured that there will be a resurrection of the dead, and a thousand years(7) in Jerusalem, which will then be built, adorned, and enlarged,[as] the prophets Ezekiel and Isaiah and others declare.

[Terral]

Faramir:
Faramir >> Thanks a lot. I really mean it. I have never said anything about your coding (I don't think) though others have. But it is sometimes difficult to respond with all that coding. Again. Thanks.
This thread had a malfunction; hopefully Dee Dee fixed it. Everyone’s posts contain coding information in the background. Other sites using this editor have different settings that do not allow us to grab the coded info. I am doing nothing different here than on the Christian Forums site (same Editor), and we have none of these problems over there. When working here I must cut and paste all information to the notepad program, and then paste that cleaned version to my word processor. That removes all of ‘your’ coded information from the message. Otherwise, I would see all of that junk also. I am a little surprised that you guys have not figured out how to clean up the coding . . . But whining at me is not going to clean up the text.
Faramir >> But Terral. They were expecting a Missiah were they not? They had an idea what was coming. Did they not? If we follow your logic, and if your interpretation is true, you can't have a valid interpreation of future events. Or do you have more insight into scripture than the Jews of Zechariah's day?
Of course we have an much more insight into Scripture than the Jews of Zechariah’s day, and more than those of Christ’s day. We have the completed Scriptures which include the words from our Lord Jesus Christ Himself. He led the Twelve directly to the spot of Zechariah’s Prophecy and told them exactly what was going to happen. Christ is standing on the Mount of Olives telling them about the ‘end of the age.’ Matt. 24:3+. Zechariah is the ONLY Old Testament Prophet to use the phrase “Mount of Olives” in his descriptions of the end of the age. And you are Pretending that Christ is telling the Twelve about the Romans, when He NEVER MENTIONS THEM. Christ says that all of these stones are going to be thrown down, and Zechariah says that the Mount of Olives is going to be split in two (Zech. 14:3+4). Then you complain that I cannot add two plus two and get four! Instead, you force your Preterist interpretation that all the events of Matthew 24 are past, and pretend that Zechariah has nothing to do with this case. That is just plain foolish . . .
Terral Original >> Zechariah is describing the Mount of Olives being split in half, with one part going north and the other part going south. Christ was sitting at this very spot while giving His Olivet Discourse. You can continue to be in denial of this truth all you like, but that his your problem and not mine.

Faramir >> I actually agree with you up to this point. Our real differences lies on when we think Zech. 14 and Mt. 24 were fullfilled. That is why it would be off topic to dragMt. 24 into this debate. Let's stick to Zech 14.
Bullony! Zechariah 14 cannot be fulfilled, because the Mount of Olives is still in one piece! Your “Mount of Olives = peoples” interpretation is nonsense! I could sooner believe the earth is flat than fall for anything as ridiculous as that. Who do you people prey upon to believe that sort of tale, grade school kids? You have started in Matthew 24:34 with the distorted notion that ‘this generation’ = the one living 2000 years ago, then you have systematically redefined everything else to fit that man-made interpretation. That is a form of spiritual wickedness (2Thes. 2:12) that leads to the blindness of others who also fall for such trickery. I cannot believe that you have taken the only reference to the Mount of Olives in the OT and transformed it into people being divided, and then conjured up some historical event to justify this foolishness.
Terral Original >> Zechariah is describing the ‘end of the age’ and our transition into the new heavens and new earth of Rev. 21:1.

Faramir >> Here Terral is a perfect example of you making an assertion. You assert that Zech. is in reference to Rev. 21:1. I have no idea why you belive this. Assertion is saying what you beleive. Argumentation is saying why you belive it.
That is because you are blind to seeing the truth with tunnel vision that is almost beyond my ability to comprehend. Do you actually read the entire chapter and find Zechariah describing events of Revelation 22?
“In that day there will be no light; the luminaries will dwindle. For it will be a unique day which is known to the LORD, neither day nor night, but it will come about that at evening time there will be light. And in that day living waters will flow out of Jerusalem, half of them toward the eastern sea and the other half toward the western sea; it will be in summer as well as in winter.” Zechariah 14:6-8.

Rev 21:24 The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it.

Rev 22:5 And there will no longer be any night; and they will not have need of the light of a lamp nor the light of the sun, because the Lord God will illumine them; and they will reign forever and ever.
Instead of reading the remainder of Zechariah 14, you want to run back into chapter 13 or anywhere else. And you are going to sit there and type out that these things are already fulfilled? Then you have no credibility in accurately handling the word of truth at all. God’s Word is your lump of PlayDoo and a toy to be fashioned into anything you wish. You people should be ashamed of what you are doing by twisting Scripture into fulfilling God’s ‘day of the Lord’ events back in 70 AD; as if He fulfilled all His promises to Israel be destroying Jerusalem.
Terral Original >> When do you believe the prophecies of Zechariah 14 will be fulfilled?

Faramir >> I already said they were fulfilled in AD 70. Didn't you read my post???????
Do you bother to read the whole chapter, before giving such a lame reply? NONE of those things in Zechariah 14 have been fulfilled at any time in earth history. And you accuse me of making mere assertions? What a HIPOCRITE! (Faramir whining about the topic, assertion nonsense, snip)

I honestly believe that the Jehovah’s Witnesses who go running from my door are more convincing than ANYTHING I hear from these Preterists. It is very difficult for me to even begin to believe that anyone can believe the things coming out of your mouth. The things you are saying are so cockeyed, that I see no reason at all to address them.

In Christ,

Terral

[Xavier]

Faramir:

[font=Georgia][size=3]

This should speak for itself... This is exactly what I have to sort through in every one of your posts. No one else's seem to have this problem, even when they used the advanced editing features we have here at TWeb.

This thread had a malfunction; hopefully Dee Dee fixed it.

There was a parsing error that resulted from a conflict between a Bold and a Cite tag. The syntax that caused the error follows:
[cite=SOURCE]

The problem is that when the Cite tag is used its own style automatically takes over and nullifies any formatting from previous tags. When the close bold tag was placed inside the Cite tag, the editor parsed that it refered to an attribute of the Cite tag's style and not of the post in general. When the close tag was not parsed, the close bold tag was not inserted into the HTML that actually displays the post. This is why all following plain text in the thread was also bold.

This is a known issue with the parser and the Cite tag.

Everyone’s posts contain coding information in the background.

Except for the fact that not everyone has the coding information in the background, I opperate on a lower level of editor because I am a control freak and like to know exactly what is going on in posts.

Any formatting tags that you use in your posting are automatically moved into the quoted material that you write responses from.

Other sites using this editor have different settings that do not allow us to grab the coded info.

In my opinion, this is not a good thing. TWeb's advanced offering of three types of editors is preferable given the different types of users that we have at TWeb.

I am doing nothing different here than on the Christian Forums site (same Editor), and we have none of these problems over there.

Here and there are completely different. Last I checked Christians Forums was running the basic vB3 package with their own customized postbit. We at TWeb run on a severely hacked vB3 package to incorporate features that are needed for our applications. These things include the Greek tags, the Cite tags, the Verse tags, etc.

When working here I must cut and paste all information to the notepad program, and then paste that cleaned version to my word processor. That removes all of ‘your’ coded information from the message. Otherwise, I would see all of that junk also. I am a little surprised that you guys have not figured out how to clean up the coding . . . But whining at me is not going to clean up the text.

But see, what you are too dense to understand is that when you copy your text from your word processor (more than likely Word or WordPerfect) the WYSIWYG editor automatically lifts the formatting information that your word processor has and translates it over to the vB code equivalant. The problem occurs in how your word processor does its coding as compared to vB. Everytime you press the Font button and select text to set as that font, your software just adds a notation to the File to state that this text should be in this font. So what happens over the course of your text is that you have selected text bit by bit and assigned it attributes. Your word processor records the formating in the exact same bit by bit manner. When vB translates the code, it takes the bit by bit formating information and changes it into bit by bit vBCode. This is the mess that I am constantly refering to.

There are two proper solutions to YOUR error:
1) Do not format in your Word Processor. Simply type the post in it then copy the plain text into the WYSIWYG editor and do your formating there. This will limit it errant code.

2) Format your text using the vBCode in your word processor. That means do NOT use the formating features of your word processor, but rather the coding language that is detailed in the following threads:
http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?t=18764
http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?t=19188
and
http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/misc.php?do=bbcode

The simple truth is that your ignorance of how the board actually operates lead to this issue. Most posters here use the Editor on-site to do their coding. It is percisely because of the errant code that I have been mentioning for quite some time now.

Now, you errant code is caused by the very fact that you copy the text into your word processor, mark up the code using ITS features, and then pasting it back here. In other words, the "solution" that you ignorantly offer is the problem.

This is last time I'm going to explain this. I've spent way too much time as it is to this point. I will keep your text exactly as it is present to me so everyone can enjoy the mess that I have to go through in order to respond to your improperly formatted posts.

Yours,
Xavier

[Terral]

Xavier:

Xavier >> The simple truth is that your ignorance of how the board actually operates lead to this issue.

What does being rude and calling people names get you? GL with your problem.

In Christ,

Terral

[Xavier]

What does being rude and calling people names get you? GL with your problem.

What does being ignorant and dense get you? Good Luck on figuring out why no one will EVER take you seriously...

In Christ, eh? Kinda have to know what that means first... :ahem:

Yours,
Xavier

[Terral]

Xavier:
Xavier >> What does being ignorant and dense get you? Good Luck on figuring out why no one will EVER take you seriously...
Why not seriously try to speak to the topic of this thread, if you can ever figure out how to work your word processor. Christ is sitting on the Mount of Olives giving His discourse about when these things happen and Your coming at the ‘end of the age.’ It just so happens that Zechariah also describes the end of the age, and the Lord’s feet standing on the Mount of Olives. This is the only place in the OT that the phrase “Mount of Olives” is used.
“Then the LORD will go forth and fight against those nations, as when He fights on a day of battle. In that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which is in front of Jerusalem on the east; and the Mount of Olives will be split in its middle from east to west by a very large valley, so that half of the mountain will move toward the north and the other half toward the south.” Zechariah 14:3+4.
Zechariah then continues describing end of the age events that go right into Revelation 21+22. Christ is describing events that lead up to the fulfillment of Zechariah 14 in Matthew 24. Are you trying to tell us that these things were fulfilled in 70 AD with the Romans? Where does Christ mention any Romans in Matthew 24? NEVER. Please tell everybody again why you believe Christ was talking about Nero and his goons in Matthew 24. Since Zechariah 14 has obviously not been fulfilled, please tell us when those things shall take place.

BTW, many of our third party guests write to thank me for showing the folly of Preterism. My posts are directed at them and not you. Thank you for not taking my testimony seriously, and keep up the nice work of avoiding the points in this discussion. Maybe Dee Dee can help you figure out your word processor . . .

In Christ,

Terral

[Xavier]

Why not seriously try to speak to the topic of this thread, if you can ever figure out how to work your word processor.

Why not seriously try to speak to the topic of my Kingdom thread, if you can ever figure out how to work the TWeb editor correctly. I sit and explain to you exactly why what I say is correct and what you say is wrong. Then, you ignore it. This is precisely what you do in your posts EVERYWHERE. You ignore the points that other make in favor of your own interpretation regradless of how valid those points may actually be.

LEARN SOMETHING HERE!!!

Christ is sitting on the giving His discourse about when these things happen and Your coming at the ‘end of the age.’ It just so happens that Zechariah also describes the end of the age, and the Lord’s feet standing on the Mount of Olives. This is the only place in the OT that the phrase “Mount of Olives” is used.

No disagreement so far...

Zechariah then continues describing end of the age events that go right into Revelation 21+22.

And the proof of this statement? See, you refuse to argue and instead assert.

Zechariah then continues describing the end of the age event that do not go into Revelation 21 and 22. Revelation 21 and 22 speaks of the New Jerusalem (New Heavens/New Earth). These events are NOT described in Zechariah 14. Nowhere does Zechariah talk about ANY NEW CREATION. There is no mention what so ever beyond the fact that because of the events described in Zechariah 14 people will worship God. This fits perfectly into my argumentation for that fact that the entire Olivet Discourse speaks to the Vindication of Jesus as the head of the Inagurated Kingdom of God. You may find detailed argumentation that you are STILL avoiding here:
http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showpost.php?p=863768

Christ is describing events that lead up to the fulfillment of Zechariah 14 in Matthew 24. Are you trying to tell us that these things were fulfilled in 70 AD with the Romans?

Bing, We have a winnner... :ahem:

Where does Christ mention any Romans in Matthew 24? NEVER.

And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not alarmed, for this must take place, but the end is not yet. For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be famines and earthquakes in various places.

Mat 24:9 "Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and put you to death, and you will be hated by all nations for my name's sake. And then many will fall away and betray one another and hate one another. And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray. And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold.

"So when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand)

Christ mentions the Romans several times. Of course, you would not know this because you do not pay attention to the context of the verse.

Here's noted commentator Clarke's view on Matthew 24:15:
This abomination of desolation, St. Luke, (Luk_21:20, Luk_21:21), refers to the Roman army; and this abomination standing in the holy place is the Roman army besieging Jerusalem; [...] The Roman army is called an abomination, for its ensigns and images, which were so to the Jews. Josephus says, (War, b. vi. chap. 6), the Romans brought their ensigns into the temple, and placed them over against the eastern gate, and sacrificed to them there. The Roman army is therefore fitly called the abomination, and the abomination which maketh desolate, as it was to desolate and lay waste Jerusalem; and this army besieging Jerusalem is called by St. Mark, Mar_13:14, standing where it ought not, that is, as in the text here, the holy place; as not only the city, but a considerable compass of ground about it, was deemed holy, and consequently no profane persons should stand on it.

Maybe noted commentator John Welsey might intregue you:
When ye see the abomination of desolation - Daniel's term is, The abomination that maketh desolate, Dan_11:31; that is, the standards of the desolating legions, on which they bear the abominable images of their idols: Standing in the holy place - Not only the temple and the mountain on which it stood, but the whole city of Jerusalem, and several furlongs of land round about it, were accounted holy; particularly the mount on which our Lord now sat, and on which the Romans afterward planted their ensigns. He that readeth let him understand - Whoever reads that prophecy of Daniel, let him deeply consider it.

Vincent even makes reference in his Word Studies:
[...] The reference here is probably to the occupation of the temple precincts by the idolatrous Romans under Titus, with their standards and ensigns. Josephus says that, after the burning of the temple the Romans brought their ensigns and set them over against the eastern gate, and there they offered sacrifices to them, and declared Titus, with acclamations, to be emperor.


Please tell everybody again why you believe Christ was talking about Nero and his goons in Matthew 24. Since Zechariah 14 has obviously not been fulfilled, please tell us when those things shall take place.

Please tell everybody again why you believe Christ was talking about some future evil world ruler with microchips. Since its obvious that the event of Matthew 24 have taken place, it is obvious that the events of Zechariah 14 have taken place.

This technique is known as Shifting the Burden of Proof. It is common amoung those who cannot defend their own position. I suggest some study to figure out how NOT to shift the burder of proof

BTW, many of our third party guests write to thank me for showing the folly of Preterism. My posts are directed at them and not you. Thank you for not taking my testimony seriously, and keep up the nice work of avoiding the points in this discussion. Maybe Dee Dee can help you figure out your word processor . . .

BTW, many of our third party guest have written to thank me for showing the folly of Terral. In fact, many futurist have written to apologize for the way that you have misrepresented their view. Several of them have spoken publically have you give all futurist a bad name. My posts are directed at you and not to them for you are the one sputtering utter nonsense with total disregard for what anyone else may be trying to explain to you. Thank you for not taking anyone's testimony seriously, and keep up the nice work avoid the points of ANY discussion. Maybe Mickey can help you figure out how to use the TWeb editor.



In Christ,

Terral


Yours,

Xavier

[Terral]

Xavier:
Terral Original >> Zechariah then continues describing end of the age events that go right into Revelation 21+22.

Xavier >> And the proof of this statement? See, you refuse to argue and instead assert.
“In that day there will be no light; the luminaries will dwindle. For it will be a unique day which is known to the LORD, neither day nor night, but it will come about that at evening time there will be light. And in that day living waters will flow out of Jerusalem, half of them toward the eastern sea and the other half toward the western sea; it will be in summer as well as in winter.” Zechariah 14:6-8.

“And the city has no need of the sun or of the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God has illumined it, and its lamp is the Lamb. The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it. In the daytime (for there will be no night there) its gates will never be closed; and they will bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it.” Rev. 21:23-26.

"And there will no longer be any night; and they will not have need of the light of a lamp nor the light of the sun, because the Lord God will illumine them; and they will reign forever and ever.” Rev. 22:5.
Xavier >> This fits perfectly into my argumentation for that fact that the entire Olivet Discourse speaks to the Vindication of Jesus as the head of the Inagurated Kingdom of God. You may find detailed argumentation that you are STILL avoiding here:
Zechariah 14 shows Christ returning at the end of the age to the Mount of Olives, and that mountain splitting in two. The testimony of Zechariah then mirrors John’s descriptions in Rev. 21 and 22. Your ridiculous ‘gospel of the kingdom’ = ‘kingdom of God’ OP was answered in Post # 12. That nonsense does not deserve any more of my attention, as there is no sense in stating the same things over and over again.
Terral Original >> Christ is describing events that lead up to the fulfillment of Zechariah 14 in Matthew 24. Are you trying to tell us that these things were fulfilled in 70 AD with the Romans?

Xavier’s expert commentary >> Bing, We have a winnner...
No sir. Where is your argument from Scripture? Nowhere. OIC.
Terral Original >> Where does Christ mention any Romans in Matthew 24? NEVER.

Xavier >> Matthew 24 6-7 ESV And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not alarmed, for this must take place, but the end is not yet. For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be famines and earthquakes in various places.
These are references to many wars and rumors of wars, etc.. There was no war in 70 AD, as the Romans had already occupied Israel. You also have no evidence of any famines or earthquakes. These are your assertions that do not mean anything. “Various places” does not mean Israel . . .
Xavier >> Matthew 24:9-12 ESV Mat 24:9 "Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and put you to death, and you will be hated by all nations for my name's sake. And then many will fall away and betray one another and hate one another. And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray. And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold.
Where are your Romans? Christ clearly says “all nations.” Lawlessness did not increase, but Rome imposed her will and leveled the city. You are trying to connect a historical event not even mentioned in Scripture to fulfillment of all the ‘day of the Lord’ and ‘end of the age’ prophecies to “the Romans did it.”
Xavier >> Matthew 24:15 ESV "So when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand)
The ‘abomination of desolation’ (Dan. 12:11-13) is to be ‘set up’ (Dan. 11:31, 12:11). This is no description of any Temple being torn down. Your interpretation is based upon no knowledge at all of the true meaning of ‘abomination of desolation.’ This is when the ‘man of sin’ (2Thes. 2:3) takes his seat in the Temple of God displaying himself as God. 2Thes. 2:4. John describes those events in Revelation 12+13, where the whole world worships the beast (Rev. 13:8, 12, 15, etc.). None of that happened in 70 AD, but only in the imaginations of Preterists.
Xavier >> Christ mentions the Romans several times. Of course, you would not know this because you do not pay attention to the context of the verse.
Please . . . the truth is that Christ never mentions the Romans anywhere in the Olivet Discourse. Instead He is describing the events leading up to “Your coming” at the “End of the Age” where He stands on the Mount of Olives and the mountain is split in two. (Zech. 14:3+4). Your third party Preterist commentary does not mean anything. I cannot believe you think quoting verses of Matthew 24 amounts to an argument. Preterists around here sure are lazy. No wonder you cannot figure out how to work your word processor . . . Heh . . . “Bing . . .” Keep up the good work (not). Preterist Interpretation = "The Romans Did it." :lmbo:

In Christ,

Terral

[Xavier]

Xavier:



Zechariah 14 shows Christ returning at the end of the age to the Mount of Olives, and that mountain splitting in two. The testimony of Zechariah then mirrors John’s descriptions in Rev. 21 and 22. Your ridiculous ‘gospel of the kingdom’ = ‘kingdom of God’ OP was answered in Post # 12. That nonsense does not deserve any more of my attention, as there is no sense in stating the same things over and over again.


Oh I see... You have no counterargumentation whatsoever... Very Well, I didn't think you were able to defend your position. Maybe some day you will actually study enough to be able to show WHY you believe the way that you do.


No sir. Where is your argument from Scripture? Nowhere. OIC.

You asked a question. I gave an answer. Where's your argument from Scripture? All I've seen thus far is more assertion.


These are references to many wars and rumors of wars, etc.. There was no war in 70 AD, as the Romans had already occupied Israel. You also have no evidence of any famines or earthquakes. These are your assertions that do not mean anything.

Oh... So you've never heard of Josephus then... Not surprising given your lack of understanding... :lmbo:

Josephus details ALL of these events occuring in his major works from the period. I suggest you read them in their entirey in order to understand my point:
http://www.earlyjewishwritings.com/josephus.html

Studyhound has done a marvoleous job of detailing the exact reference if you care to attempt to understand:
http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?t=17023

“Various places” does not mean Israel . . .

"Various places" means Israel.


Where are your Romans? Christ clearly says “all nations.” Lawlessness did not increase, but Rome imposed her will and leveled the city. You are trying to connect a historical event not even mentioned in Scripture to fulfillment of all the ‘day of the Lord’ and ‘end of the age’ prophecies to “the Romans did it.”

Lawlessness did increase... To the point that the Romans ended up sacking the city. Your argument show you do not know the history of the period in any manner worthy of being able to comment on it (similar to your knowledge of Greek).



The ‘abomination of desolation’ (Dan. 12:11-13) is to be ‘set up’ (Dan. 11:31, 12:11).

It WAS set up. The Romans marched in, placed their standards, and began to worship their pagan idols.

This is no description of any Temple being torn down.

This is a description of the Temple being torn down.

Your interpretation is based upon no knowledge at all of the true meaning of ‘abomination of desolation.’ This is when the ‘man of sin’ (2Thes. 2:3) takes his seat in the Temple of God displaying himself as God.

Ceaser did it... Titus did it... Josephus concurs on both counts... YAWN!

My scholars concur with my opinion. You offer nothing but your opinion in return. Typical.

2Thes. 2:4. John describes those events in Revelation 12+13, where the whole world worships the beast (Rev. 13:8, 12, 15, etc.). None of that happened in 70 AD, but only in the imaginations of Preterists.

I'm sorry did someone mention 2 Thes... I'm pretty sure this thread nor anything in my post references that. Must be another introduction of an off-topic ploy... Also Typical.

[size=3]Please . . . the truth is that Christ never mentions the Romans anywhere in the Olivet Discourse.

Scholarship and the Church at large disagrees with you on that one, and since you have no proof of such a claim it doesn't rightly matter anyway... :ahem:

Instead He is describing the events leading up to “Your coming” at the “End of the Age” where He stands on the Mount of Olives[font=Georgia] and the mountain is split in two. (Zech. 14:3+4).

And God only own the cows on a Thousand Hills:
For every beast of the forest is mine, the cattle on a thousand hills.

Grow up, Terral... No one buys the literalistic approach to scripture anymore. People have begun to realize that context and genre are important. That fact proves itself by your quotation at the opening of this post. You have no idea of the meaning of the text, because you are too stuck in your dogma of wooden literalism.

Your Preterist commentary does not mean anything.

That's because you are too stupid to understand...

I cannot believe you thing quoting verses of Matthew 24 amounts to an argument.

But sure as Hell, Terral can prooftext until the cows come home... Case in point, Top of the Post. Typical.

Preterists around here sure are lazy. No wonder you cannot figure out how to work your word processor

Man, Futurist here sure are stupid. No wonder you cannot figure out that Christ's return already happened and that the Early Church believed it had already happened.

. . . Heh . . . “Bing . . .” Keep up the good work (not). Preterist Interpretation = "The Romans Did it." :lmbo:

Heh... Keep up the Bad Work... You continue to show yourself to be totally ignorant of scripture, logic, and basic rhetoric.

Yours,
Xavier

PS: Quid pro quo, Terral.... Quid pro quo... :rofl:

PSS: Whatever happened to speaking seriously about the topic of the thread? Or was that another one of your schemes to hide the fact that you cannot prove your view or disprove mine?

[Terral]

Xavier:
Xavier >> I'm sorry did someone mention 2 Thes... I'm pretty sure this thread nor anything in my post references that. Must be another introduction of an off-topic ploy... Also Typical.
The Romans did not fulfill all of the OT and NT prophecies for the day of the Lord and the end of the age by leveling Jerusalem. I pointed out several examples in my last post, and you give these one line answers using no Scripture that do not mean anything. “The Romans Did It” is your answer to everything; or third party commentaries. To you, “Wars and rumors of wars” = Romans, and ‘nation rising against nation’ = Romans; “abomination of desolation” = Romans. Earthquakes and famines in diverse places = Romans. Paul shows you the abomination of desolation being set up (2Thes. 2:3+4), but that is off topic like Zechariah 14. I cannot believe that somebody came along and convinced you that the Roman’s did it, and prophecy is now fulfilled. Heh. What a joke!

In Christ,

Terral

[Xavier]

The Romans did not fulfill all of the OT and NT prophecies for the day of the Lord and the end of the age by leveling Jerusalem.

The Romans did fulfill all of the OT and NT prophecies dealing with the "Day of the LORD" and the "end of the age" by leveling Jerusalem.

I pointed out several examples in my last post, and you give these one line answers using no Scripture that do not mean anything.

I pointed out several answers, and you give no answer whatsoever. Wonder who has the better case?

“The Romans Did It” is your answer to everything; or third party commentaries. To you, “Wars and rumors of wars” = Romans, and ‘nation rising against nation’ = Romans; “abomination of desolation” = Romans. Earthquakes and famines in diverse places = Romans.

That's the context, The Judgement is restricted to Apostate Israel. The people doing the judging, the Romans. I've detailed this argument. You've continuously ignored it.

Paul shows you the abomination of desolation being set up (2Thes. 2:3+4), but that is off topic like Zechariah 14.

Xavier shows you that this has been fulfilled and you don't have a counterargument other than to point to the various places that all the describe the SAME THING!!!

I cannot believe that somebody came along and convinced you that the Roman’s did it, and prophecy is now fulfilled. Heh. What a joke!

Wanna a good joke?

Matthew 24 refers to the Anti-Christ who is coming to implant microchips into people as described by Revelation by the First Century author John...

You accuse ME of believe the unbelieveable... LOOK AT FUTURISM... :rofl:

Yours,
Xavier

[Terral]

Xavier:
Terral Original >> The Romans did not fulfill all of the OT and NT prophecies for the day of the Lord and the end of the age by leveling Jerusalem.

Xavier >> The Romans did fulfill all of the OT and NT prophecies dealing with the "Day of the LORD" and the "end of the age" by leveling Jerusalem.
“The word of the LORD which came to Zephaniah son of Cushi, son of Gedaliah, son of Amariah, son of Hezekiah, in the days of Josiah son of Amon, king of Judah: I will completely remove all things from the face of the earth," declares the LORD. I will remove man and beast; I will remove the birds of the sky And the fish of the sea, [ Rev. 16:3 ] and the ruins along with the wicked [ 2Pet. 3:7-12 ]; And I will cut off man from the face of the earth," declares the LORD. Be silent before the Lord GOD! For the day of the LORD* is near, For the LORD has prepared a sacrifice, He has consecrated His guests. Zephaniah 1:1-7.
“And it shall be in the last days God says, 'That I will pour forth My Spirit upon All Mankind; and your sons and your daughters shall prophecy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams; even on my bondslaves , both men and women, I will in those days pour forth my of My Spirit; and they shall prophesy.” Acts 2:17+18.

Only after the ‘gospel of the kingdom’ goes to the whole world (Matt. 24:14), then the ‘end will come.’

“And I will grant wonders in the sky above and signs on the earth below, blood, and fire, and vapor of smoke. The sun will be turned into darkness and the moon into blood [ Matt. 24:29 ], and before the great and glorious [ Judgment part ] day of the Lord shall come. And it shall be that everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved [ through gospel of the kingdom ].” Acts 2:19-21
The ‘end of the age’ comes when Satan (Rev. 20:10) and all his sons (Rev. 19:20, 20:11-15) are in the lake of fire. Only then can we head into the ‘new heavens’ and ‘new earth’ of Rev. 21:1+. You are Pretending that this is the new age, when Satan is still disguised as an angel of light ( 2Cor. 11:14) and deceiving you (2Thes. 2:11) at the same time, as the ‘god of this world.’ 2Cor. 4:4. Here is the kicker though that even the blind man should be capable of seeing.
“Now as to the times and the epochs, brethren, you have no need of anything to be written to you. For you yourselves know full well that the day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night.” 1Thes. 5:1+2.

“Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him [ 1Thes. 4:17 ], that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.” 2Thes. 2:1+2.
The letters of the Apostle Paul have direct application to the mystery church (Eph. 5:32) in the world today, because we are standing in the same shoes as these Thessalonians in anticipation of the coming of the Day of the Lord. The destruction of Jerusalem did not mark the coming of the ‘day of the Lord,’ but represents God placing His Prophetic program on the back burner. He was gathering the members of the prophetic ‘bride’ (John 3:29) during the Four Gospels and Acts, but is now gathering the members of the mystery ‘body of Christ.’ Eph. 4:11-13 (12). We are now living in a mystery time that none of the OT prophets were given to see. Our church will be ‘caught up’ (1Thes. 4:17), when the day of the Lord COMES, STARTS, BEGINS, ETC. 2Thes. 2:2. Only then will Elijah come to restore all things (Matt. 17:10+11), DURING the ‘thousand years’ (2Pet. 3:8, Rev. 20:5) day of the Lord (2Pet. 3:10).

You are trying to say that the day of the Lord is over, when Paul shows that it has yet to even begin. All of the “Romans Did It” talk is NONSENSE. The ‘end of the age,’ will be here a thousand years AFTER the day of the Lord COMES. The Preterists here have their heads buried in the sand someplace between Matthew 24 and 70 AD and have not the slightest clue about what they are Pretending to pass off as an Interpretation of Scripture concerning these things. Will any of them offer an argument like mine using actual ‘day of the Lord’ Scripture and prove those things are already fulfilled? No Way! They offer one sentence answers that assert their opinions, or the explanations of other Preterists.
Xavier >> Wanna a good joke? Matthew 24 refers to the Anti-Christ who is coming to implant microchips into people as described by Revelation by the First Century author John... You accuse ME of believe the unbelieveable... LOOK AT FUTURISM...
Let’s examine what Scripture says:
“I saw one of his heads as if it had been slain, and his fatal wound was healed. And the whole earth was amazed and followed after the beast . . . And he opened his mouth in blasphemies against God, to blaspheme His name and His tabernacle, that is, those who dwell in heaven. It was also given to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them, and authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation was given to him. All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain . . . And he causes all, the small and the great, and the rich and the poor, and the free men and the slaves, to be given a mark on their right hand or on their forehead, and he provides that no one will be able to buy or to sell, except the one who has the mark, either the name of the beast or the number of his name.” Rev. 13:3-17
As you can clearly see, John is describing the beast (man of sin; 2Thes. 2:3+4) dominating every person on this planet and forcing them to take his mark of the beast. This is the ‘abomination of desolation’ (Matt. 24:15) being ‘set up’ (Dan. 11:31, 12:11), and NOT anything being torn down. They will not be able to buy or sell anything, unless they bear his mark. Today we are sliding our bank cards through a scanner to pay for our groceries at the market. The day is coming when that information shall be implanted in the right hand or forehead. Go ahead and give us your Preterist interpretation on how the beast is going to enforce his law that NOBODY can buy or sell without his mark without advanced technology. Christ is describing the ‘end of the age’ and a time that is still future when technology will be even more advanced than in our day. None of these things happened 2000 years ago, and all this is still future. You cannot even place anyone in the temple of God displaying himself as God (2Thes. 2:3+4).

Let’s put things into perspective to see just how foolish the Preterist interpretation appears in light of the evidence. Most scholars place the writing of Revelation between 90 and 100 AD, which is two or three decades after the Romans leveled Jerusalem. They are trying to say that John’s ‘day of the Lord’ prophecies were fulfilled 20 or 30 years before they were even written. To combat this evidence they simply assert that Revelation was written in the late 60’s, which makes no sense because John would have been exiled to Patmos in the aftermath of the destruction of Jerusalem. Even if we give them that Revelation was written in say 67 AD (not), then all of the “Lord’s day” (Rev. 1:10-20:15) prophecies would be fulfilled before most of the known world had the opportunity to read about them. The Epistles of our NT were not even canonized into the completed Text until farther down the road. The Preterists are saying that all of the OT and NT prophecies were already fulfilled long before God’s Word was assembled into the Bible we read today. They have transformed God’s book of prophecy (Rev. 22:7, 10, 18+19) into a history book, and exchanged God’s truth for a lie. Peter says,
“But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up. Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat!” 2Pet. 3:10-12.
John describes our current heavens and earth passing away with the Judgment of Rev. 20:11-15, and the final events of this ‘Lord’s day’ that began in Rev. 1:10. When the ‘thousand years’ (2Pet. 3:8) ‘day of the Lord’ (2Pet. 3:10) is over, then all of our Bibles will be burned up with this current heavens and earth. God did not hand us His obsolete Word that has already been fulfilled. The Romans leveled many cities during their domination of their known world, and Jerusalem was just one in a long line. All of the ‘day of the Lord’ and ‘end of the age’ prophecies are still future. These Preterists are trying to sell you a bag of goods that is rotten to the core, and based upon a man-made interpretation that is based upon literally NOTHING.

In Christ,

Terral

[Just The Facts]

Hi

I would just like ANYONE who believes Zech 14 is Rome and 70 Ad to tell me at what point in the siege of Jerusalem did the Roman Legions have this happen to them.

12: And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

It is really a very simple question.......when did the legions receive this plague where they stood.

[Terral]

Hi Facts:
Facts >> I would just like ANYONE who believes Zech 14 is Rome and 70 Ad to tell me at what point in the siege of Jerusalem did the Roman Legions have this happen to them. 12: And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth. It is really a very simple question.......when did the legions receive this plague where they stood.
The Preterist interpretation of Zechariah 14 makes no sense to me, and they have things completely backwards. If Christ came back in 70 AD (not), then He was supposed to overcome the enemies of Israel and Judge the Living (Matt. 25:31-33) and the dead (Rev. 20:11-15). Zechariah says,
“Then the LORD will go forth and fight against those nations, as when He fights on a day of battle. In that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which is in front of Jerusalem on the east; and the Mount of Olives will be split in its middle from east to west by a very large valley, so that half of the mountain will move toward the north and the other half toward the south.” Zechariah 14:3+4.
But, the Preterists have the Romans winning the battle and destroying Jerusalem after overcoming the Lord who is supposed to come in glory (Matt. 24:30+31). Then the Romans continue to dominate the known world for hundreds of years that follow. No sir. The events of Zechariah 14 are just as much future as all the events of Matthew 24 and Revelation 12+13. You have brought up a very good point for which they cannot give you a Scriptural reply.

In Christ,

Terral

[Just The Facts]

Hi terral

I agree that Zech 14 is Future...........................although I see rev 12 and much of 13 as fulfilled. I find that using the tense of the verses tells us when it becomes future and that is at rev 13 verse 8: I also see all the way to this verse as fulfilled.

14: And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

This is where we are now the Gospel of the coming Kingdom is being preached unto the World. Everything beyond this point I see as not fulfilled.

Matt 24 should be read in the same light as Daniel 11: with each verse covering whole generations and even centuries.

For example

9: Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

This is the Pagan Persecutions from 64 Ad to 314AD

but I digress ........and do wander off topic....Zech 14 was not fulfilled in 70 AD………………. not even close.

[Terral]

Hi Facts:
Facts >> I agree that Zech 14 is Future...........................although I see rev 12 and much of 13 as fulfilled. I find that using the tense of the verses tells us when it becomes future and that is at rev 13 verse 8: I also see all the way to this verse as fulfilled.
We agree that Zechariah 14 is definitely fulfilled in the future. We disagree about Revelation being already fulfilled. The tenses cannot tell you anything, because the entire work is a ‘book of prophecy.’ Rev. 22:7, 10, 18+19. This is the only book in the Bible that has the words ‘prophecy’ and ‘book’ in the same verse. You are trying to make a case for this being a history book, which amounts to adding to and taking way “from the words of the book of this prophecy.” Rev. 22:19. Woooo unto you people guilty of this grievous crime against God and His Word. You must tell me how you can misinterpret the following to mean they are already fulfilled:
“Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.” Rev. 3:10.

“There will be signs in sun and moon and stars, and on the earth dismay among nations, in perplexity at the roaring of the sea and the waves, men fainting from fear and the expectation of the things which are coming upon the world; for the powers of the heavens will be shaken.” Luke 21:25+26.
The ‘day of the Lord’ (Lord’s day: Rev. 1:10) events of Revelation lead up to the ‘end of the age’ in Rev. 20:15 to begin the new age in Rev. 21:1. The first beast (Rev. 13) is the ‘man of sin’ (2Thes. 2:3+4) who takes his place in the Temple of God displaying himself as being God. The world is worshipping the beast in Rev. 13:4 and beyond verse 8. Breaking up the events of the chapter to prop up such an interpretation is not warranted. Christ describes the ‘abomination of desolation’ being set up just once prior to the ‘end of the age.’ There is no Biblical excuse or reason to support your partial fulfillment = past and part = future interpretation of Rev. 13. Paul says that our mystery church (Eph. 5:32) is ‘caught up’ (1Thes. 4:17) when the day of the Lord is ‘at hand.’ 2Thes. 2:2. Since all of the ‘prophetic’ events of “Day of the Lord” are still future (excluding some visions of past events like Rev. 12:1-5) then most everything in Revelation is fulfilled in the future. After all, John is describing the ‘day of the Lord’ throughout this book of prophecy. If we are taken when the day of the Lord COMES, then obviously we will not be here when all of those things are fulfilled.
Facts >> 14: And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. This is where we are now the Gospel of the coming Kingdom is being preached unto the World. Everything beyond this point I see as not fulfilled.
No sir. The common misinterpretation is that we are preaching the ‘gospel of the kingdom’ (Matt. 24:14) in the world today. Note that Christ Himself preached the ‘gospel of the kingdom’ (Matt. 4:23, 9:35) years before He died for anybody. The main components of that gospel message are repentance and water baptism for the forgiveness of sins (Mark 1:4, Acts 2:38). We preach Paul’s ‘Christ and Him crucified’ (1Cor. 2:2) gospel today, and our redemption is through His precious blood. Eph. 1:7. You are confusing the ‘gospel’ of the Four Gospels and Acts (good news concerning the kingdom of God; Acts 8:12) with Paul’s ‘my gospel’ that is ‘according to the revelation of the mystery.’ Rom. 16:25. Our gospel that Christ died for our sins to be raised on the third day (1Cor. 15:1-4) was not revealed to Paul (Gal. 1:11+12), until after Calvary. The ‘gospel of the kingdom’ was rejected by Israel, which Paul describes as their ‘transgression.’ Rom. 11:7, 11+12. Our gospel of today was sent to the nations (Rom. 16:25-27 (26)), because of Israel’s rejection of the ‘gospel of the kingdom’ that is according to Prophecy. The Prophets saw Israel becoming a kingdom of priests (Ex. 19:6), but did not see our mystery church (Eph. 5:32) of today. This ‘gospel of the kingdom’ once again becomes ‘the gospel,’ when we are taken and Elijah comes to restore all things. Matt. 17:10+11. That will be ‘the gospel’ to the end of the age. (snip Matt/Daniel)
Facts >> But I digress ........and do wander off topic....Zech 14 was not fulfilled in 70 AD………………. not even close.
Zechariah is describing the ‘end of the age’ in Zech. 14, just as Christ is describing the events leading up to that time in Matthew 24. His statement about all the stones being thrown down (Matt. 24:2) occurs at the end of the age, when the Mount of Olives is split in two (Zech. 14:3+4). The Romans have nothing to do with Christ’s Olivet Discourse. If the Temple is rebuilt and torn down 100 times, Christ is still describing His coming in Zechariah 14:3+4, and that massive earthquake, as when everything is destroyed.

In Christ,

Terral

[Chief of Staff Lizard]

And you are Pretending that Christ is telling the Twelve about the Romans, when He NEVER MENTIONS THEM.
By the same argument though you believe in a rapture. Though that is never mentioned in scripture. You believe that Revelation is all about "the antichrist" though that is never mentioned in Revelation.

The Trinity is never mentioned in the Bible, do you not believe in that either?

We know the Trinity is real however because of sound exegetical arguments. For sound exegetical arguments of the Romans in Mt. 24, see Xavier's response in this thread. (Thanks X)

and pretend that Zechariah has nothing to do with this case. That is just plain foolish . . .
What does being rude accomplish Terral?

And what does pretending that I do not connect Zech 14 and Mt. 24. I have repetedly said that I do. No wonder you can't address my disagreements with you. You can't even recognize when we agree. :sigh:
Terral Original >> Zechariah is describing the Mount of Olives being split in half, with one part going north and the other part going south. Christ was sitting at this very spot while giving His Olivet Discourse. You can continue to be in denial of this truth all you like, but that his your problem and not mine. :argh: How many times do I have to say that it was no accident that Christ gave this discourse on the Mount of Olives. I have never denied this.

Faramir >> I actually agree with you up to this point. Our real differences lies on when we think Zech. 14 and Mt. 24 were fullfilled. That is why it would be off topic to dragMt. 24 into this debate. Let's stick to Zech 14.
Bullony! Zechariah 14 cannot be fulfilled, because the Mount of Olives is still in one piece! Your “Mount of Olives = peoples” interpretation is nonsense! I could sooner believe the earth is flat than fall for anything as ridiculous as that. If it is such nonsense, then do something other than assert that it is nonsense. Tell me why it is nonsense. I'm waiting.

Who do you people prey upon to believe that sort of tale, grade school kids? Anyone capable of rational thoughts. Grade school kids, truckers, PhD.s, house wifes.

We leave those incapable of rational thought to the futurist.

I cannot believe that you have taken the only reference to the Mount of Olives in the OT and transformed it into people being divided, and then conjured up some historical event to justify this foolishness.
You can't belive it, but you can't refute it either.
Terral Original >> Zechariah is describing the ‘end of the age’ and our transition into the new heavens and new earth of Rev. 21:1.
How can you belive Zechariah is describing the 'end of the age' when he never even mentions 'the end of the age'.

You see, it's a stupid argument when I make it too.

Faramir >> Here Terral is a perfect example of you making an assertion. You assert that Zech. is in reference to Rev. 21:1. I have no idea why you belive this. Assertion is saying what you beleive. Argumentation is saying why you belive it.
That is because you are blind to seeing the truth with tunnel vision that is almost beyond my ability to comprehend. Do you actually read the entire chapter and find Zechariah describing events of Revelation 22?
No. But if it is so clear, why not point the conection out to me instead of asserting your position. What is clear to you, is not clear to every one. That is why we have dialog, that is why we debate. If it were that clear to everyone then we would all agree. Since we do not agree, in order to persuade anyone who does not agree with you, you need to present an argument not an assertion.

Posting the verse with emphasis (as you did) is better than mere assertion but not much.

Let me take the same verses, and emphasise them with my own emphasis, and (this is an important and, something that you do not do) post a brief statement as to why I interpret them the way I do (or in this case do not think they are talking about the same event):

“In that day there will be no light; the luminaries will dwindle. For it will be a unique day which is known to the LORD, neither day nor night, but it will come about that at evening time there will be light.And in that day living waters will flow out of Jerusalem, half of them toward the eastern sea and the other half toward the western sea; it will be in summer as well as in winter.” Zechariah 14:6-8.

This passage talks about a day without light.

[verse=Rev 21:24] The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it. [/quote]
Light present it this verse.

Rev 22:5 And there will no longer be any night; and they will not have need of the light of a lamp nor the light of the sun, because the Lord God will illumine them; and they will reign forever and ever.
Again, light.

See how it is done?

Instead of reading the remainder of Zechariah 14, you want to run back into chapter 13 or anywhere else. And you are going to sit there and type out that these things are already fulfilled? Then you have no credibility in accurately handling the word of truth at all. In you OP you asked me about Zech 14:3-7. I gave you a well thought out detailed response. You fail to answer it with anything other than, “It is not worthy of any resonse”



Now you are suggesting I need to address the rest of Zech. 14?



And you accuse me of running? :lmbo:



Excuse me for not addressing the rest of Zech 14, when my efforts at v. 3-7 have been ignored. Why should I go to all the effort of addressing the rest of Zech. When all you are going to do is say, “It is not worth my while to respond to you.”