When were angels created?

[Rubia Warren]

I wasn't sure where to put this, so go ahead and move it, if it should be in a better place.
I was wondering if anybody knew when were angels created? Did they exist before the beginning of the 6 day creation?
If not, were they created before or after man?

[yxboom]

Were you interested in having this a debate or non-debate topic? If the latter than I will move it to the Liberal Arts section where you can specify which point of view you would like respond to this question, otherwise I will leave it here. :)

[Rubia Warren]

I don't mind if it turns into a debate. It just won't be ME debating, because I don't know the answer to my question.
So does anybody know?

[Rubia Warren]

Surely someone must know- or at least have an idea. :huh:

[Gavin]

La Rubia:

this subject is appropriate for the non-essentials section, in my judgement, and does not need to be moved.

What I have always been told is that angels were created before men. A select number of them revolted against God and became demons, with their leader as Satan. Then the creation of man occurred, with the subsequent events of Adam and Eve and the fall, etc.

Not a lot of Scripture clearly addresses this, although John Milton wrote an extremely beautiful epic about it in _Paradise Lost_. Milton describes the conversation of the devils that are in Hell and their decision to try to get back at God by seducing men to their side. It is really interesting.

But of course only Scripture is authorative. A few Scriptures hint at the fall of demons, but only indirectly. For example, Luke 10:18, "he replied, 'I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.'"

Then of course you have the passages of judgement in the Old Testament which refer to ancient kings, but by analogy and the force of the language, many theologians argue, are actually references to Satan himself. I think the reasons for this are strong. Here is one example:

Ezekiel 28:
12 "Son of man, take up a lament concerning the king of Tyre and say to him: 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says:

" 'You were the model of perfection,
full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
13 You were in Eden,
the garden of God;
every precious stone adorned you:
ruby, topaz and emerald,
chrysolite, onyx and jasper,
sapphire, turquoise and beryl.
Your settings and mountings were made of gold;
on the day you were created they were prepared.
14 You were anointed as a guardian cherub,
for so I ordained you.
You were on the holy mount of God;
you walked among the fiery stones.
15 You were blameless in your ways
from the day you were created
till wickedness was found in you.
16 Through your widespread trade
you were filled with violence,
and you sinned.
So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God,
and I expelled you, O guardian cherub,
from among the fiery stones.
17 Your heart became proud
on account of your beauty,
and you corrupted your wisdom
because of your splendor.
So I threw you to the earth;
I made a spectacle of you before kings.
18 By your many sins and dishonest trade
you have desecrated your sanctuaries.
So I made a fire come out from you,
and it consumed you,
and I reduced you to ashes on the ground
in the sight of all who were watching.
19 All the nations who knew you
are appalled at you;
you have come to a horrible end
and will be no more.' "

I made some of the more obvious stuff in bold. He is called a gaurdian cherub who was made perfect in lived in luxury in Eden,
but sinned and was cast away from the presence of God. Sounds a lot like a description of Satan's fall to me!

I feel like I am kind of giving you a mile when you are asking for an inch, so I will stop here, but I hope this helps, and let me know if you have any thoughts.

:p

[Rubia Warren]

Hey, Gavin! I'm going to have to check out "Paradise Lost"- it sounds like it's really good!
I have always assumed that angels existed before the 6- day creation period, and I heard something that got me thinking about it.
I think I was listening to Bob Enyart (somebody correct me if I'm wrong- I am pretty sure it was him, though.) one day when he was talking about it. I am pretty sure that he was saying that the angels were created within the 6- day period as well as the earth and it's inhabitants. Hopefully someone who knows this point of view better than I am explaining it will post and clarify what I am saying.
Genesis 1:1 says that in the beginning God created the heavenS and the earth. I always assumed that that was talking about the sky, the atmosphere, the solar system, etc. But I think that Enyart was saying that He also created HEAVEN during that time, and also made angels during that 6-day creation period. What have you been taught, Gavin? I always thought that Heaven- as in the place where God is at now, was not part of that 6- day creation, and that the angels were there before he started making the earth and the "heavens".
It sparked a curiosity in me the day I heard it on the radio, I hope I didn't misrepresent what Enyart was teaching (it's been a while since it was broadcast).
And yes, you did kind of give me a mile- but it was a good mile! Thanks! Miles are okay with me (except Dee Dee's preterist miles that make my head spin!!! LOL Just kidding, DDW!)
(btw- I have seen the OT scripture you posted, and I took it the same way, to be referring to Satan).

[Xmansmommy]

Hey Rubes! Great ? :thumb:
I may not know when angels were created per se, but we certainly learn from scripture that they were watching and praised God as He created the earth...(God's discourse with Job)....
Job:38:4: Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding 38:5: Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?:38:6: Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof; 38:7: When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
Certainly the angels were present when God created the earth and all that lies therein. Hope that helps some.

In His Grace,
Linda

[Rubia Warren]

If you can find anything else, Gavin, or have any other thoughts, please let me know. :help:

[Iceman]

La Rubia,

Whether or not angels were created before or during the 6 days of creation is a matter open to a lot of discussion, debate, and interpretation. You did ask for an inch, but you'll get a mile.

One reason why is that people disagree about whether Creation happened in 6 literal days or if 6 days is symbolic, meaning perhaps 6 ages. Angels may have been created with the rest of creation, but if Creation is taken literally at 6 days, then this is not likely. It's not because God is bound by time and didn't have the time to fit in angels, Satan's rebellion, and the war in heaven, but because if 6-day description is literal, you wouldn't likely find such significant events completely ignored.

Personally, I think the Job reference strongly implies that angels were created before the creation of the world. Also, remember that God did not create heaven and earth those 6 days. He created light, atmosphere, land, sky, breathable air, animals, birds, humans, etc. Therefore I find it easy to assume angels already existed at that point.

I'll post more thoughts later if I have any.

Oh... and DO NOT READ MILTON. First of all, it's written in Old English. (Think Shakespeare, but three times as difficult.) Unless you're experienced with it, you might find it daunting. Second, it's bloody long. Third, it's absolutely full of Biblical inaccuracies, so even if it was easy to read and short, it wouldn't teach you much about the Bible.

[Iceman]

by the way, there's also Isaiah 14:3-20 (and a few verses beyond) that make reference to Satan as the king of Babylon. It speaks of his fall from heaven and his eventual damnation. This might help understanding the old rascal better.



On the day the LORD gives you relief from suffering and turmoil and cruel bondage, you will take up this taunt against the king of Babylon:

How the oppressor has come to an end!
How his fury has ended!
The LORD has broken the rod of the wicked,
the scepter of the rulers,
which in anger struck down peoples
with unceasing blows,
and in fury subdued nations
with relentless aggression.
All the lands are at rest and at peace;
they break into singing.
Even the pine trees and the cedars of Lebanon
exult over you and say,
"Now that you have been laid low,
no woodsman comes to cut us down."

The grave below is all astir
to meet you at your coming;
it rouses the spirits of the departed to greet you-
all those who were leaders in the world;
it makes them rise from their thrones-
all those who were kings over the nations.
They will all respond,
they will say to you,
"You also have become weak, as we are;
you have become like us."
All your pomp has been brought down to the grave,
along with the noise of your harps;
maggots are spread out beneath you
and worms cover you.

How you have fallen from heaven,
O morning star, son of the dawn!
You have been cast down to the earth,
you who once laid low the nations!
You said in your heart,
"I will ascend to heaven;
I will raise my throne
above the stars of God;
I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly,
on the utmost heights of the sacred mountain.
I will ascend above the tops of the clouds;
I will make myself like the Most High."
But you are brought down to the grave,
to the depths of the pit.

Those who see you stare at you,
they ponder your fate:
"Is this the man who shook the earth
and made kingdoms tremble,
the man who made the world a desert,
who overthrew its cities
and would not let his captives go home?"

All the kings of the nations lie in state,
each in his own tomb.
But you are cast out of your tomb
like a rejected branch;
you are covered with the slain,
with those pierced by the sword,
those who descend to the stones of the pit.
Like a corpse trampled underfoot,
you will not join them in burial,
for you have destroyed your land
and killed your people."

[Iceman]

One more thing... it may seem weird we're all talking about Satan. This was originally supposed to be, "When were angels created?" But since he's the most-talked about angel in the Bible (except for the people, like Milton, who believe Christ was once an angel), it's only logical that we focus on passaged about him.

But I think Gavin has it down pretty good with his description.

[automatthew]

Outside of purely biblical reasoning, angels would have to have some sort of material existence, some sort of universe. I think C. S. Lewis addressed this in one of the really popular books. Only God is immaterial. Any other person would have to exist in a material universe to distinguish itself from other persons. Anyone know the reference offhand?

Matthew

[automatthew]

Forgot to make my main point.

The angels may have been created before the Earth, but since they interact with our universe, one would think they were created along with it.

m

[Iceman]

automatthew,

I would hesitate to agree that angels need to have physical existance. Scriptural evidence seems to suggest that they are spiritual, but can also interact with the physical. What would cause you to think otherwise?

[automatthew]

Iceman:

I'm really hoping someone will come up with the Lewis quote, 'cause he says it better than I can now. I'll try, though.


The concept of angels made of spirit existing outside of matter is the result of fuzzy thinking, IMO. Not that we can help it much; who can conceive of beings who are wholly immaterial?

If there are more than one angel, how do they tell themselves apart? Lewis's question: How can pure spirit be individualized? Material existence in a material universe is necessary for individuality and free will.

Does that make me a heretic? Anyone?



m

[smilax]

Some people think they were created on the fourth day because they are identified as "stars" in Job.

[Iceman]

automatthew:
If there are more than one angel, how do they tell themselves apart? Lewis's question: How can pure spirit be individualized? Material existence in a material universe is necessary for individuality and free will.


Well... first of all, the whole free will thing doesn't sit well with me, but that's a whole different story. :)

To make a decision about the individualization of beings in a material world, we would really have to define what we mean by material.

I think that individuality can be achieved without material. In fact, I think the most individual parts of us are completely non-material. We all look different, for sure, but often I distinguish my friends because of their love, wit, humor, points of view, etc. None of these are material, at least in my understanding of the word. Would you agree?

If you can prove that personality is material, then we can go somewhere. But I believe that individuality is completely possible wthout material. In fact, I would venture to say that it is more complete, and material only distracts us from what is truly individual.

Remember also that God is spirit, not material. (John 4:24) He managed to be individual, so I think he can create beings who are likewise individual, with material (humans) or without (angels).


I have more to say, but I'll save that for later so we can discuss this stuff.

[Iceman]

smilax:
Some people think they were created on the fourth day because they are identified as "stars" in Job.

I'd really personally love to see a Hebrew comparison of those two words. What seems the same in English is not always the same in the original language.

[smilax]

Nope, this time, it's the same.

Genesis i, 16: "And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars [kowkab] also."

Job xxxviii, 7: "When the morning stars [kowkab] sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?"

The parallelism in the creation account may also be related to this.

[Rubia Warren]

Smilax-
Hmmm.... okay. Maybe THAT'S what I'd heard that day. It seems to be pretty close to what I remember. Is there not another scripture (and I cannot for the life of me remember where it is at) that talks about how the angels are like the stars in the sky, and when Satan rebelled he took 1/3 of them with him? Yeah, you know. Somethin' like that. Is the word the same there, too?

Iceman and automatthew- Thank you thank you for your posts, I like how this thread is going (I was so afraid it would quickly die)... and don't worry, ice... I like these "miles"!! LOL Keep going- I'll just jump in and ask questions as you go along.

[smilax]

La Rubia:
Is there not another scripture (and I cannot for the life of me remember where it is at) that talks about how the angels are like the stars in the sky, and when Satan rebelled he took 1/3 of them with him? Yeah, you know. Somethin' like that. Is the word the same there, too?Revelation xii, 4: "And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born."

So it's Greek... But I'll note that the Septuagint uses "aster" (same word as in Revelation) for both Genesis and Job.

[automatthew]

Smilax,

I've been throwing terms like "individuality" and "free will" around sloppily. I know I have a coherent idea in there somewhere, but it will take some scraping to find.

Matthew

[Socrates]

Let's not forget the reason for the 4th Commandment. Everything in the heavens, earth and seas was created in this six-day period, and the logic of this passage is that the days were the same length as those of our ordinary week. Furthermore, the Hebrews had no word for "universe", so they used the phrase "heavens and earth" instead. This is known as a merism, where two opposites are combined into a whole. Compare "open day and night", meaning not just bright day and dark night but excluding twilight, but the whole 24-hour cycle. Therefore all created entities must have been created during creation week.

The Job passage uses the word "stars" (kokabim) symbolically for angels, so these are not the literal light-giving stars created on Day 4 after the Earth. Rather, these stars sang for joy at seeing the earth (erets) created. From Genesis 1, there are two possibilities. Either they are talking about the whole planet created on Day 1, so the angels were created before this on that day. Or else it's talking about the appearance of the dry land, also called Earth, on Day 3.

[Iceman]

Socrates:
Therefore all created entities must have been created during creation week.

The Job passage uses the word "stars" (kokabim) symbolically for angels, so these are not the literal light-giving stars created on Day 4 after the Earth. Rather, these stars sang for joy at seeing the earth (erets) created. From Genesis 1, there are two possibilities. Either they are talking about the whole planet created on Day 1, so the angels were created before this on that day. Or else it's talking about the appearance of the dry land, also called Earth, on Day 3.

good points, so-crates.

I'd like to mention that the planet wasn't created on day 1. The earth was already there for some reason. (Don't ask me why. I'm not God.) It was formless and void, but it was there. Light was created on the first day.

Does anyone have an explination about when the actual earth was created? I've heard that "the earth wasvoid..." could be translated to mean "the earth became void," implying it was in fact created on the first day, but it seems to be a lot coming from one word.

[Iceman]

by the way... anyone ever hear about that wacked-out theory that angels are actually humans, but for some reason their molecules vibrate at the speed of light so we can't see them unless they slow themselves down?

[Socrates]

Iceman wrote:

"I'd like to mention that the planet wasn't created on day 1. The earth was already there for some reason. (Don't ask me why. I'm not God.) It was formless and void, but it was there. Light was created on the first day."

Yes it was. Remember what I said about "merism" -- Genesis 1:1 is a summary statement, and Ex. 20:11 makes it clear that EVERYTHING was created in Creation week.

I:
"Does anyone have an explination about when the actual earth was created? I've heard that "the earth wasvoid..." could be translated to mean "the earth became void," implying it was in fact created on the first day, but it seems to be a lot coming from one word."

No, this is hopelessly wrong. No one thought of this dodge until the rise of long age "science" in about 1800. Before then, very few of the Church Fathers and Reformers doubted a straightforward interpretation of Genesis, the way, e.g. Answers in Genesis treats it now. But when "science" supposedly proved long ages, the liberals kept on pointing out that Genesis taught ordinary days, but mistakenly thought they could use this to attack Biblical reliability. But many conservatives invented ideas such as "days were long periods of time" (followed by Hugh Ross of Reasons to Believe), or there was a gap between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2 (popularized by the Scofield Reference Bible). Included in the Gap Theory is the idea that the Hebrew should be "became".

But it's untenable in the Hebrew. Most of the days have the waw consecutive, which advances the narrative. But the sentence with "the Earth XXX tohu va bohu" has the waw disjunctive, which does NOT advance the narrative, but introduces a parenthetical statement. So Genesis 1:1 is a merism, but Genesis 1:2 breaks the narrative to explain something about one component of the merism, the Earth. It is describing what it was like when it was first created. So XXX MUST be "was", not "became". So the tohu va bohu would be consistent with the Earth being a sphere covered by water.

For further refutation of the gap theory, see http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs/1132.asp

[Socrates]

Iceman wrote:

"by the way... anyone ever hear about that wacked-out theory that angels are actually humans, but for some reason their molecules vibrate at the speed of light so we can't see them unless they slow themselves down?"

I wish people who invent what you rightly call a wacked out theory would realise that angels are spirit beings, not matter, and stop trying to invent pseudo-scientific rationalizations. If the molecules really did vibrate at the speed of light, Einstein's special relativity would indicate that their masses would become infinite and time would stop.

[Iceman]

nice posts Socrates,

so have we actually satisfactorally answered the question of the thread?

[Socrates]

Iceman wrote:


nice posts Socrates,

so have we actually satisfactorally answered the question of the thread?

Thanx Iceman :). Yes, I do believe we have :thumb:

[Dr. Jack Bauer]

I don't know about angels, but I just created a freakin ZOMBIE THREAD!!!!!

[SixLiteralDays]

I know this is an old thread but it is an interesting one and I thought I might add one final (non-dogmatic) thought to what Socrates had said. I've reached the tentative conclusion that they were created at the very beginning. Genesis 1: 1 states "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." If Job 38 is referring to the creation of the earth (instead of the appearance of dry land - day three - either is probably acceptable) then I would conclude that they were created along with "the heavens" in Gen. 1: 1 just before the earth.
I can't prove that because there is so little about it in Scripture but IMO this seems to make the most sense. My guess is that Satan fell shortly after day seven with Adam and Eve falling soon after that. Anyways, just wanted to add my two cents (if it was worth that much).