PDA

View Full Version : What is authority?


context
May 15th 2003, 09:22 AM
Preface, Introduction, and then the Topic.


PREFACE
Why is our government 'comprised' of three "powers"? Executive, legistative, judicial. So many people today have the impression that these three 'branches' were just lying around here and there, and then someone bound them up together into a new invention and stuck this bunch into the US Constitution. But, this impression is false, to say the least. The 'three branches' together is the very nature of government. But, when most people today read that, they are of no impression that I am saying anything of any relation to anything else. But, this impression is also very ignorant. Government is of the person.
------------------------

INTRODUCTION
There is a version of the "Chinese room" experiment in which a person born without experience of sight has been given the mindless procedural rules of interaction by which to tutor a sighted youngster on the nature of sight and light, and this tutoring is conducted through a Braille-to-visual computer link. Such an experiment would actually work, just like a computer that is programmed with these same procedures: the literate sighted child can learn of the nature of sight and light from this blind person, even though this blind person has never experienced sight.

Here is the either/or question:

1)Is this experiment, in itself, a convincing case for the notion that genuine intelligence can be reduced (even if only functionally) to mindless mechanics?

or,

2)is this experiment convincing of the notion that genuine intelligence can be reduced to mindless mechanics only because of some (quite possibly wrong) assumptions that many people both within and without the field of Artificial Intelligence do not realize that they are making?

The problem with this "Chinese room" experiment is that the rules must have been originated by a person who could see. The common failure to realize this simple fact is what has made current the notion that human functional intelligence is nothing but a complex combination of mindless procedures and interactions. In reality, the "Chinese room" experiment is nothing but a simulation--like all simulations--which is being made to work by way of the living intelligence that is ultimately behind it. The power and logic of the simulation seem to all be in place sufficiently well to raise the hopes of the atheist who seeks a way to make God obselete; but, the "Chinese room" experiment, like the computer, actually knows nothing about what it is supposed to be doing. The missing third ingredient is that "subjective" quality which allows us to say " I think, therefore I am." This is ontological agency (more on that term later), more often poorly known by its derivative, "qualia". It is ontological agency which makes a power/logic entity, such as a human body, capable of doing things that exhibit ontological agency. There has to be "somebody" in there (or, at least, somewhere), in order for the machine to be recognized by an ontological agent as having an ontological agent behind the behavior. The logic-and-power aspect is not enough, and there is not going to be any mere logic-and-power entity which can, without prior input, exhibit intelligence. Computers only do programs, and the car stereo speaker blurting out the voice of the talk show host does not have any idea of what it is saying (and this print you are reading has no idea what it is being used to express).

Some atheists who work in the field of Artificial Intelligence seek to nullify God by thinking that they actually have the potential to engineer an ontological agent (an agent that can know something "subjectively", as opposed to appearing to know something by way of its behavior, or, less, non-behavior, such as an inanimate object). If man can be his own true master, then God is a useless entity at best --and this premise is intoxicating to those who would deny the existence of an entity that is both personal and is the ground of all other being. This intoxicant is very much like that which pertains to the fantasy of making a surplus-energy perpetual motion machine. But, 'Strong' AI it is so much more intoxicating, because it aims to cut at the very foundation of reality and to take that foundation to pieces, all while allowing man to gain dominance over it all. In the field of AI this aim has been unsuccessful; yet, the premise still holds captive the reprobate mind because other avenues are available by which to help maintain this self-deception, such as Transhumanism, the Hedonistic Imperative, and, at the head of them all, evolutionary biology.

It has been by way of AI (or, for me, personally, by way of the realms of proof and then realizing on my own that these three together were the very definition of a living being) that the definition of a person has come to light, and this definition holds that a person--an ontological agent--is triune. I suggested as much in my mention of the problem with the "Chinese room" experiment. "Strong AI" wishes to get beyond the mere power/logic (behavioral) aspect of human intelligence and to arrive at a way by which to engineer ontological agency itself. Many of those in the field of AI have had to admit that ontological agency is required in order for a power/logic agent to be truly intelligent, and they also admit that this simple fact presents a fundamental barrier to the success of "Strong AI". While there are those who hold to the idea that ontological agency (life) exists on a spectrum (so that either there is no such thing as a non-ontological agent, or that ontological agency comes with a certain kind of power/logic which is simply not present in brute-engineered machines), yet, we can have the very notion of non-ontological agency only by our own ontological agency. This presents a sort of conflict, and the fundamental failure of the "Chinese room" experiment to uphold the "Strong AI" position is a case in point.

Not only is there some sort of conflict in observing that the idea of non-ontological agency cannot be had except by an ontological agent, but our ontological agency asserts that something can be known to be objectively false. In order for us to be able to conclude that something is objectively false, we must, at least tacitly, be operating from something else which we take to be an objective truth by which to know that this first thing is objectively false (hense the term 'ontological agency'). But, ontological agency is supposed, by many positivist evolutionists, to be inherently subjective, in the sense of being incapable of objectively knowing anything to be true beyond the fact that 'what seems to be seems to be' (i.e., a thing true by definition). In a sense, this is the correct view, but only so long as we are willing to see our mistakes as such. The denial that anything can be known objectively is a misapplication of the Adamic mind, by supposing that the inability of the creature to once and for all define anything to a 'T' implies that ontological agency cannot have objective knowledge. There is no little man in the radio, and the only reason that "Strong AI" has a foothold in anyone's mind is because the aim of "Strong AI" can easily seem to be viable to the kind of mind that was created to have dominion over the physical world.
-------------------

TOPIC
The following quote is from _The Theology of the Ancient Creeds
Part 4: The Athanasian Creed_, by Greg Uttinger (paul_ryland@hotmail.com) posted at www.chalcedon.edu/article...nger.shtml <http://www.chalcedon.edu/articles/0208/020827uttinger.shtml>


"We must be careful....not to think that our confessions have netted all there is to say about God, let alone all that God knows of Himself. For example, "One God, three Persons" does not mean that we have a three-headed God, three separate personalities that share some abstract substance in common. God is simple in His essence and has no parts. There are not three wills or three intelligences in the Substance of God, but each Person possesses all the divine attributes fully and equally. Or to look at the doctrine from another direction, Scripture speaks of the one God ("one Substance") as "He," not as "It" or "They"; and unless the three Persons are making reference to one another, God says "I," not "We." Clearly, our formulas - as crucial as they are - do not exhaust the mystery of the Godhead."


God is an ontological agent. Therefore, God is triune by definition. The ground of all being, the standard by which all else is judged, is a person. The Biblical data which has been used to support the Orthodox Trinity is an implicit, multi-leveled revelation whose mysteries are open to inquiry. When this data is understood for what it is, and not as a bizarre notion which elevates mystery above God by way of a pan-logical view of God's ineffability, is in the most direct opposition to the most prized possession of atheism: the conviction that life ultimately comes from non-life, whether this be abiogenesis (evolutionism), or 'Strong' AI.

God's life is authority.

John Powell
May 15th 2003, 08:11 PM
POWELL:
Welcome to TWEB, Context. :cheers:

I hope you don't mind if I comment now on only a few of the things you said.

Context:
Why is our government 'comprised' of three "powers"? Executive, legistative, judicial. So many people today have the impression that these three 'branches' were just lying around here and there, and then someone bound them up together into a new invention and stuck this bunch into the US Constitution. But, this impression is false, to say the least. The 'three branches' together is the very nature of government.


POWELL:
Are you suggesting, Context, that governments are naturally three separate branches, executive, legislative, and judicial as in the U.S. system? If yes, then why were most ancient governments a single branch, such as a chief, a king, or a Senate? And, why are most non-governmental organizations structured with a single supreme power?

CONTEXT:
It has been by way of AI (or, for me, personally, by way of the realms of proof and then realizing on my own that these three together were the very definition of a living being) that the definition of a person has come to light, and this definition holds that a person--an ontological agent--is triune.


POWELL:
How are humans triune?

What do you mean by "ontological"?

CONTEXT:
Here is the either/or question:

1) Is this experiment, in itself, a convincing case for the notion that genuine intelligence can be reduced (even if only functionally) to mindless mechanics?

or,

2) is this experiment convincing of the notion that genuine intelligence can be reduced to mindless mechanics only because of some (quite possibly wrong) assumptions that many people both within and without the field of Artificial Intelligence do not realize that they are making?


POWELL:
I haven't been convinced either way by your description of the experiment.

UTTINGER:
"We must be careful....not to think that our confessions have netted all there is to say about God, let alone all that God knows of Himself. For example, "One God, three Persons" does not mean that we have a three-headed God, three separate personalities that share some abstract substance in common. God is simple in His essence and has no parts.


POWELL:
That's a weird kind of entity, Context. Doesn't your God have at least 3 parts, namely the 3 persons? Besides that, doesn't your God have at least a part that thinks and a part that observes and a part that interacts with our universe and a part that loves, and . . . .?

UTTINGER:
There are not three wills or three intelligences in the Substance of God, but each Person possesses all the divine attributes fully and equally.


POWELL:
So, the three persons don't each have their own intelligence, but they share the single intelligence, is that it? Doesn't that mean they each get a part of the entire intelligence about 33% each or does this mean that they each have 100% of it, so there's actually 3 times as much intelligence as there is or what?

Perhaps it's like 3 terminals connected to the same computer. Each person can access the full power of the CPU, but only if the other two terminals are inactive. If the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are all acting at the same time (e.g. at the baptism of Jesus) then they must each have less than 100% of the total, right? Also at the baptism, wasn't Jesus a separate thing from the Father, a separate part, as was the Holy Ghost? At the baptism of Jesus, it appears God was at least 3 parts.

UTTINGER:
Or to look at the doctrine from another direction, Scripture speaks of the one God ("one Substance") as "He," not as "It" or "They"; and unless the three Persons are making reference to one another, God says "I," not "We." Clearly, our formulas - as crucial as they are - do not exhaust the mystery of the Godhead."


POWELL:
Why should God be a "he" if he doesn't have the male "parts"? Shouldn't God be called an "it," then? Are you saying that God the Father never speaks to the other two of the trinity by saying things like "Let us make man in our image . . ."?

If we are in God's image doesn't that mean we sort of look like God?

CONTEXT:
God is an ontological agent. Therefore, God is triune by definition.


POWELL:
Here's your definition:

CONTEXT:
ontological agent (an agent that can know something "subjectively", as opposed to appearing to know something by way of its behavior, or, less, non-behavior, such as an inanimate object).


POWELL:
Where in your definition does it say or clearly imply that an ontologicial agent is triune?

CONTEXT:
The ground of all being, the standard by which all else is judged, is a person. The Biblical data which has been used to support the Orthodox Trinity is an implicit, multi-leveled revelation whose mysteries are open to inquiry. When this data is understood for what it is, and not as a bizarre notion which elevates mystery above God by way of a pan-logical view of God's ineffability, is in the most direct opposition to the most prized possession of atheism: the conviction that life ultimately comes from non-life, whether this be abiogenesis (evolutionism), or 'Strong' AI.

God's life is authority.


POWELL:
Is it possible, Context, that you are wrong and that the evolutionists are right about abiogenesis?

John Powell

context
May 15th 2003, 11:02 PM
Today @ 01:11 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=97879#post97879)
John Powell:

POWELL:
Welcome to TWEB, Context. :cheers:

Hey, those two little guys look exactly alike!

I hope you don't mind if I comment now on only a few of the things you said.

I don't mind if you don't.

Are you suggesting, Context, that governments are naturally three separate branches, executive, legislative, and judicial as in the U.S. system? If yes, then why were most ancient governments a single branch, such as a chief, a king, or a Senate? And, why are most non-governmental organizations structured with a single supreme power?

Separate? No. I thought I was clear to everyone when I said: "many people today have the impression that these three 'branches' were just lying around here and there, and then someone bound them up together into a new invention"




How are humans triune?

I thought I would be clear to everyone when I said: "Government is of the person." Do you know what the founding fathers of the US Constitution said about the 'separation of powers'?

What do you mean by ontological?

I thought you read my post. I said: "In order for us to be able to conclude that something is objectively false, we must, at least tacitly, be operating from something else which we take to be an objective truth by which to know that this first thing is objectively false (hence the term 'ontological agency')." It is indeed odd that one can think to have determined that nothing can be known for what it really is. How does one know that one does not know anything for what it really is? Shall we say that, for anything which we may ever think we know, we are 100% mistaken?


I haven't been convinced either way by your description of the experiment.

Are you saying that you know of examples of a 'Chinese' room experiment in which the rules were *not* orginated by the same senses that interpret the output?


That's a weird kind of entity, Context. Doesn't your God have at least 3 parts, namely the 3 persons? Besides that, doesn't your God have at least a part that thinks and a part that observes and a part that interacts with our universe and a part that loves, and . . . .?

First, I am along the lines of a Van Tillian (although I understand the object much better than did he). God is not made up of anything, rather, God is one thing (namely, a living being who *is* the power of life). Second, you are dancing with infinite regress if you admit that the ground of all contingent being is made up of yet more fundamental stuff. Do you think it wise to in effect suppose that you are the ground of being? Of course you don't think it wise.




So, the three persons don't each have their own intelligence, but they share the single intelligence, is that it? Doesn't that mean they each get a part of the entire intelligence about 33% each or does this mean that they each have 100% of it, so there's actually 3 times as much intelligence as there is or what?


It would help you to understand everything I'm saying if you would get it out of your mind that I am a 'Trinitarian'. God is no more comprised of three people than he is comprised of ten people. I thought I made this clear when I said, among just about everything else: "Suppose there is a King of a wayward Kingdom and, as the Judge over his Kingdom, the King disguises himself as a pauper. He goes around as a pauper so as to test how loyal are both his good and his wicked subjects to his laws (logos) for the common man, for the poor, and for the traveler. The pauper refers to the King as 'other' and, even when in appeal to the King by letter, refers to the King as 'other'. Is the King comprised of two people?"

it's like 3 terminals connected to the same computer. Each person can access the full power of the CPU, but only if the other two terminals are inactive. If the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are all acting at the same time (e.g. at the baptism of Jesus) then they must each have less than 100% of the total, right?

I thought you read my post. Ponder a little more my paragraph about space. Do you think that the "three dimensions" of space is each 33.3333....% of space?


Also at the baptism, wasn't Jesus a separate thing from the Father, a separate part, as was the Holy Ghost? At the baptism of Jesus, it appears God was at least 3 parts.

Assuming that you admit that space-as-you-know-it is a relative and not an absolute dimension of reality, then on what ground do you assume that a 'hypothetical' living being who created space is understood *in terms of* space? To such a being, space is arbitrary (this is the premise). The premise is what you have to assume if you are going to assume to argue with someone in terms of that premise. If you don't want to argue in terms of that premise, you are free to argue in other terms. But, do not think to be arguing well by (even unwittingly) changing premises within your argument.



Why should God be a he if he doesn't have the male
parts? Shouldn't God be called an it, then?

The term 'father', when used in reference to a living being who is the Creator, connotes the idea of ultimate power and authority. That is all. To this, you may say that we are then only anthropomorphizing. But, this is not the case, for unless you assume, as you seem to be doing, that we are talking of a literal human male-ness on the part of this living Creator, then you must (must) seek the connotation. And, were you to fail on both counts, you would have no argument. Please argue within the premise, or else challenge the premise.



Are you saying that God the Father never speaks to the other two of the trinity by saying things like "Let us make man in our image?"

There can't be any connotation there either. If there were, you would not see what it could reasonably be, for you are determined to spend your mind on ways to debunk what you mistakenly claim to understand.


If we are in God's image doesn't that mean we sort of look like God?

If I speak of the facets of a certain problem concerning, say, the philosophy of education, do you assume that I'm saying that the problem is ontologically equivalent to a cut gem?




Where in your definition does it say or clearly imply that an ontologicial agent is triune?

Watever do *you* mean by 'triune' in your question? Or, do you know?




Is it possible, Context, that you are wrong and that the evolutionists are right about abiogenesis?

A surplus-output perpetual motion turbine, made with magnets on the principle of the waterwheel, looks entirely feasible to the ignorant fool whose hopes are in his abililty to be the master of infinite free power. It was the search for the surplus-output pm machine (as well as for the "philosopher's stone") that finally brought these fools great knowledge of their own limits. The field has changed, the fools have not.

John Powell
May 16th 2003, 03:25 AM
POWELL:
Welcome to TWEB, Context. :cheers:

CONTEXT:
Hey, those two little guys look exactly alike!


POWELL:
Yep, except they blink with the opposite eye and reverse which hand they use. (Maybe it's one person and the mirror image?).

POWELL:
I hope you don't mind if I comment now on only a few of the things you said.

CONTEXT:
I don't mind if you don't.

POWELL:
Are you suggesting, Context, that governments are naturally three separate branches, executive, legislative, and judicial as in the U.S. system? If yes, then why were most ancient governments a single branch, such as a chief, a king, or a Senate? And, why are most non-governmental organizations structured with a single supreme power?

CONTEXT:
Separate? No. I thought I was clear to everyone when I said: "many people today have the impression that these three 'branches' were just lying around here and there, and then someone bound them up together into a new invention"


POWELL:
It's not clear to me what you mean. Are you saying that all governments cover these three functions? Do you find that idea to have some metaphysical relevance? These are useful ways of categorizing functions of government, but there are others as well, such as domestic and foreign.

POWELL:
How are humans triune?

CONTEXT:
I thought I would be clear to everyone when I said: "Government is of the person."


POWELL:
Nope, that doesn't help. How are humans triune?

CONTEXT:
Do you know what the founding fathers of the US Constitution said about the 'separation of powers'?


POWELL:
A little. Consider the following from:

http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/jefferson/quotations/jeff1050.htm

JEFFERSON:
"The radical idea of the character of the constitution of our government, which I have adopted as a key in cases of doubtful construction, is, that the whole field of government is divided into two departments, domestic and foreign (the States in their mutual relations being of the latter); that the former department is reserved exclusively to the respective States within their own limits, and the latter assigned to a separate set of functionaries, constituting what may be called the foreign branch, which, instead of a federal basis, is established as a distinct government quoad hoc [to this extent], acting as the domestic branch does on the citizens directly and coercively; that these departments have distinct directories, co-ordinate, and equally independent and supreme, each within its own sphere of action." --Thomas Jefferson to Edward Livingston, 1824. ME 16:23


POWELL:
What are you referring to, Context, that the three branches you refer to should be made separate?

POWELL:
What do you mean by ontological?

CONTEXT:
I thought you read my post.


POWELL:
I read it, but perhaps too quickly.

CONTEXT:
I said: "In order for us to be able to conclude that something is objectively false, we must, at least tacitly, be operating from something else which we take to be an objective truth by which to know that this first thing is objectively false (hence the term 'ontological agency')." It is indeed odd that one can think to have determined that nothing can be known for what it really is. How does one know that one does not know anything for what it really is? Shall we say that, for anything which we may ever think we know, we are 100% mistaken?


POWELL:
I'm not asking here what you mean by "ontological agency" since you gave a definition elsewhere for that, but "ontological" by itself. What do you mean by ontological? I might decide later your definition of "ontological agent" is misguided.

POWELL:
I haven't been convinced either way by your description of the experiment.

CONTEXT:
Are you saying that you know of examples of a 'Chinese' room experiment in which the rules were *not* orginated by the same senses that interpret the output?


POWELL:
No. Perhaps I just haven't thought about the experiment and the ramifications enough to be persuaded to accept either of your choices.

POWELL:
That's a weird kind of entity, Context. Doesn't your God have at least 3 parts, namely the 3 persons? Besides that, doesn't your God have at least a part that thinks and a part that observes and a part that interacts with our universe and a part that loves, and . . . .?

CONTEXT:
First, I am along the lines of a Van Tillian (although I understand the object much better than did he). God is not made up of anything, rather, God is one thing (namely, a living being who *is* the power of life). Second, you are dancing with infinite regress if you admit that the ground of all contingent being is made up of yet more fundamental stuff. Do you think it wise to in effect suppose that you are the ground of being? Of course you don't think it wise.


POWELL:
If God is not made of parts why does He behave like He is?

I'm not so sure it's unwise to think that the individual person is the ground of being. What is this "ground of being" you're referring to? Are you suggesting that if God didn't exist then there could be no existence of anything at all or something like that?

POWELL:
So, the three persons don't each have their own intelligence, but they share the single intelligence, is that it? Doesn't that mean they each get a part of the entire intelligence about 33% each or does this mean that they each have 100% of it, so there's actually 3 times as much intelligence as there is or what?

CONTEXT:
It would help you to understand everything I'm saying if you would get it out of your mind that I am a 'Trinitarian'. God is no more comprised of three people than he is comprised of ten people.


POWELL:
Do you believe God is a triune being? If yes, what does that mean to you?

CONTEXT:
I thought I made this clear when I said, among just about everything else: "Suppose there is a King of a wayward Kingdom and, as the Judge over his Kingdom, the King disguises himself as a pauper. He goes around as a pauper so as to test how loyal are both his good and his wicked subjects to his laws (logos) for the common man, for the poor, and for the traveler. The pauper refers to the King as 'other' and, even when in appeal to the King by letter, refers to the King as 'other'. Is the King comprised of two people?"


POWELL:
Are you suggesting that God played a game of deception with us by claiming to be a certain physical man when He really wasn't, like the King deceived the people into thinking he was a pauper when he really wasn't? Did God deceive us by claiming that Jesus was His Son, when, in fact, this was a lie because Jesus was Him?

POWELL:
Perhaps it's like 3 terminals connected to the same computer. Each person can access the full power of the CPU, but only if the other two terminals are inactive. If the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are all acting at the same time (e.g. at the baptism of Jesus) then they must each have less than 100% of the total, right?

CONTEXT:
I thought you read my post. Ponder a little more my paragraph about space. Do you think that the "three dimensions" of space is each 33.3333....% of space?


POWELL:
No, but we're not talking about spacial dimensions, Context. We're talking about using available resources. There's a conservation of matter / energy issue you are possibly denying. If persons A, B, and C all have access to the same source of power then they cannot each be using 100% of that power for different things. It would violate this conservation law. Are you suggesting that an equivalent spiritual version of this conservation law does not apply to God?

POWELL:
Also at the baptism, wasn't Jesus a separate thing from the Father, a separate part, as was the Holy Ghost? At the baptism of Jesus, it appears God was at least 3 parts.

CONTEXT:
Assuming that you admit that space-as-you-know-it is a relative and not an absolute dimension of reality, then on what ground do you assume that a 'hypothetical' living being who created space is understood *in terms of* space?


POWELL:
Because that's how you and I understand things, Context, in terms of space.

CONTEXT:
To such a being, space is arbitrary (this is the premise). The premise is what you have to assume if you are going to assume to argue with someone in terms of that premise. If you don't want to argue in terms of that premise, you are free to argue in other terms. But, do not think to be arguing well by (even unwittingly) changing premises within your argument.


POWELL:
Are you suggesting that God was not divided into 3 parts at the baptism of Jesus? Wouldn't that be deceptive to people like John the Baptist?

POWELL:
Why should God be a he if he doesn't have the male parts? Shouldn't God be called an it, then?

CONTEXT:
The term 'father', when used in reference to a living being who is the Creator, connotes the idea of ultimate power and authority. That is all. To this, you may say that we are then only anthropomorphizing.

POWELL:
If God isn't male, why didn't God merely claim to be the creator of Jesus, not the male parent? Wouldn't that be less deceptive?

CONTEXT:
But, this is not the case, for unless you assume, as you seem to be doing, that we are talking of a literal human male-ness on the part of this living Creator, then you must (must) seek the connotation. And, were you to fail on both counts, you would have no argument. Please argue within the premise, or else challenge the premise.


POWELL:
Ok, I'll challenge the premise. The term "mother" connotes more importance than "father." The biological purpose of father is primarily to provide a useful diversity of genes for the organism. The default organism is female. Male humans are essentially females with some useful differences.

If God really existed, I would have expected Her to have made this truth more clear to the chauvinist males who have dominated historical human society. The fact that it is the male Gods who have survived to the present more than the female ones suggests to me that religion is a human invention. Males have controlled the females. To the victors go the spoils, in this case, what gender of God survives.

POWELL:
Are you saying that God the Father never speaks to the other two of the trinity by saying things like "Let us make man in our image?"

CONTEXT:
There can't be any connotation there either. If there were, you would not see what it could reasonably be, for you are determined to spend your mind on ways to debunk what you mistakenly claim to understand.


POWELL:
Ok. Who was speaking in "Let us make man in our image" and to whom was this person speaking?

POWELL:
If we are in God's image doesn't that mean we sort of look like God?

CONTEXT:
If I speak of the facets of a certain problem concerning, say, the philosophy of education, do you assume that I'm saying that the problem is ontologically equivalent to a cut gem?


POWELL:
You still haven't defined "ontological" for me, so I don't know. There seems to be a useful similarity between the facets of a cut gem and the facets of a problem, otherwise the writer wouldn't use the same term.

Could you answer my "image" question?

CONTEXT:
God is an ontological agent. Therefore, God is triune by definition.

POWELL:
Here's your definition:

CONTEXT:
ontological agent (an agent that can know something "subjectively", as opposed to appearing to know something by way of its behavior, or, less, non-behavior, such as an inanimate object).

POWELL:
Where in your definition does it say or clearly imply that an ontologicial agent is triune?

CONTEXT:
Watever do *you* mean by 'triune' in your question? Or, do you know?


POWELL:
How about this:

Dictionary.com:
TRIUNE
being three in one; used especially of the Christian Trinity; "a triune God"

POWELL:
Now, could you answer my question of where in your definition of "ontological agent" that it says or clearly implies that such an ontological agent is triune? If it's not in your definition then with what justification do you claim that an ontological agent, by definition, is triune?

POWELL:
Is it possible, Context, that you are wrong and that the evolutionists are right about abiogenesis?

CONTEXT:
A surplus-output perpetual motion turbine, made with magnets on the principle of the waterwheel, looks entirely feasible to the ignorant fool whose hopes are in his abililty to be the master of infinite free power. It was the search for the surplus-output pm machine (as well as for the "philosopher's stone") that finally brought these fools great knowledge of their own limits. The field has changed, the fools have not.


POWELL:
Perpetual motion machines violate the physical law of conservation of energy. What physical law does abiogenesis violate?

Let me ask again, Context, could you be wrong and the evolutionists right about abiogenesis? Is that possible?

John Powell