The doctrine of "recreation" in WT theology

[Krusader]

Jehovah's Witnesses believe that the vast majority of their number cease to exist at death. That's right - they are completely annihilated. They have no concept of a spirit/soul within them. The only ones who can count on being changed instantaneously to spirit life are members of the 144,000 (of which very few are left).

Jehovah's Witnesses believe that their god, Jehovah, will "recreate" them based on his memory of them. At the "resurrection" Jehovah will make a new body, and will put in it the thought patterns, personality and memories of the dead person.

Now, if I'm not mistaken, this is not a "resurrected" person, but a totally new person who thinks and acts like the dead person. However, there is nothing which really links the dead person with this newly created individual....such as a soul or spirit.

Russell, the WT founder, did away with the spirit/soul in man concept, since he so hated the doctrine of torment in an eternal hell. Without a soul/spirit, the unrepentant sinner at Judgement Day is simply cast into fire and annihilated. There can be no "eternal torment," since the soul is simply the physical body which will be totally destroyed in the flames.

However, when Russell did away with the soul/spirit as active components in humans apart from the body, he also did away with the regeneration of the spirit/soul which happens at salvation. The only one's who are "born-again" are the 144,000 who are "born-again" to spirit-life when they die. This is why no JWs seek to be born-again - they can't be, since they believe they have only a physical nature.

So, if a JW dies, he simply goes into the earth, or his ashes are cast to the wind. Someday, Jehovah may make a replica of that individual - but it will be just that, a replica!

[Sparko]

Yeah, without some continuity, the new person is just a clone of the old person.

It is like the old sci-fi teleportation dilemma. The teleproter scans a person, then dissolves them into molecules. the molecules are stored in the machine for the next arrival. The information is then transmitted to another location and OTHER molecules are used to reconstruct the person at the new location.

1. is the person who appears at the other end the same person? or just a copy of that person who thinks he is the same person?

2. What if after scanning the original, the machine did NOT destroy the original, but still transmitted the information to the other booth? Then you would have two people who think they are the same person, but one is just a copy.

[Alien]

2. What if after scanning the original, the machine did NOT destroy the original, but still transmitted the information to the other booth? Then you would have two people who think they are the same person, but one is just a copy.

Or transmitted it 100 times? :teeth:

I read a sci fi story once about someone whose wife had died. She had taken a trip to the moon six months previously by teleporter, and he was offered the chance to have her re-transmitted, which he accepted. He then had a duplicate of his wife as she was six months ago, with none of the intervening memories. I can't remember how it went from there ....

[barryrob]

Don't you all underestimate the power of my God, that is why I will never join any of your faiths as you have a very small view of the transcendent God I/We worship that you refuse to!

Barryob

[Sparko]

Don't you all underestimate the power of my God, that is why I will never join any of your faiths as you have a very small view of the transcendent God I/We worship that you refuse to!

Barryob
Uh...

No answer, eh?

At least we made you think. Or at least I hope we did.

[Krusader]

Don't you all underestimate the power of my God, that is why I will never join any of your faiths as you have a very small view of the transcendent God I/We worship that you refuse to!

Barryob

Barryrob, don't you understand that you have underestimated God. Jehovah of the Watchtower, for instance, is not an omnipresent God, as Christians believe our God to be. The Watchtower god sits enthroned in yonder heavens, and must rely on intermediaries (angels, spirit creatures) to bring him news of his creation. Actually, Watchtowerism is a form of Gnosticism - a belief that the ultimate God must work through intermediaries since he cannot be contaminated with the material world. This is why your Society teaches that it was an angel that took on flesh and became Christ - Jehovah of the Watchtower could not!

[David_A_Reed]

Jehovah's Witnesses believe that the vast majority of their number cease to exist at death. That's right - they are completely annihilated. They have no concept of a spirit/soul within them. The only ones who can count on being changed instantaneously to spirit life are members of the 144,000 (of which very few are left).

Jehovah's Witnesses believe that their god, Jehovah, will "recreate" them based on his memory of them. At the "resurrection" Jehovah will make a new body, and will put in it the thought patterns, personality and memories of the dead person.

Now, if I'm not mistaken, this is not a "resurrected" person, but a totally new person who thinks and acts like the dead person. However, there is nothing which really links the dead person with this newly created individual....such as a soul or spirit.

Russell, the WT founder, did away with the spirit/soul in man concept, since he so hated the doctrine of torment in an eternal hell. Without a soul/spirit, the unrepentant sinner at Judgement Day is simply cast into fire and annihilated. There can be no "eternal torment," since the soul is simply the physical body which will be totally destroyed in the flames.

However, when Russell did away with the soul/spirit as active components in humans apart from the body, he also did away with the regeneration of the spirit/soul which happens at salvation. The only one's who are "born-again" are the 144,000 who are "born-again" to spirit-life when they die. This is why no JWs seek to be born-again - they can't be, since they believe they have only a physical nature.

So, if a JW dies, he simply goes into the earth, or his ashes are cast to the wind. Someday, Jehovah may make a replica of that individual - but it will be just that, a replica!

That's an excellent summary of the JW position on the resurrection -- or as their version is more appropriately termed, re-creation! And the comments about the implications (such as re-creation while the individual is still alive) are right-on as well.

For those who might be helped by a graphic illustration, I would submit http://www.cftf.com/death/index.html#Resurrect

It is interesting that a visiting JW could respond only with anger.

[Pythagoras]

Mr. David Reed,

Hello.

Let me get straight to the point. I'm an Arian.

Although I believe some of the doctrines of the JW's are wrong, they are right in the most fundamental precept,-- that God is One and not a "trinity", "tri-uinty" , a "hypostatic union" within a "Godhead" etc. The simple acknowledgment of this basic truth puts them miles ahead of any trinitarian.


What made you leave the worship of the One true God for three false ones?

Besides, isn't it preposterous to suggest God died, as Hab. 1:12 clearly states God cannot die.

best wishes,

[Krusader]

Mr. David Reed,

Hello.

Let me get straight to the point. I'm an Arian.

Although I believe some of the doctrines of the JW's are wrong, they are right in the most fundamental precept,-- that God is One and not a "trinity", "tri-uinty" , a "hypostatic union" within a "Godhead" etc. The simple acknowledgment of this basic truth puts them miles ahead of any trinitarian.


What made you leave the worship of the One true God for three false ones?

Besides, isn't it preposterous to suggest God died, as Hab. 1:12 clearly states God cannot die.

best wishes,

Oh, Pyth, why so many red herrings? You know very well Christians worship One God, Who is Tri-Personal in nature. I know you know because I've told you zillions of times. Furthermore, God did not die - and this was just a purely stupid statement by you. You know very well that it was the Man, Christ, Who died upon the cross, and that His divine nature never died. At least debate like an intelligent individual.

[Pythagoras]

Hi Crusader,


Oh, Pyth, why so many red herrings? You know very well Christians worship One God, Who is Tri-Personal in nature.


If something is "tri-personal" it cannot be the One God of the Shema, unless you believe the Shema declares a trinitarian God. If something is a "compound unity" it cannot be an absolute one. So your difficulty remains.

Crusader, I would go so far as to grant that Modalism, or "Oneness" doctrine could conceievably be defined as the belief in "One" God, though it's stretching the concept, but the "triune God" as One, not a chance. On a related note,, the traditional Hindu definition of God falls within a Sabelliastic(Modalist) framework-- Braham, Vishnu and Shiva -- is the great "Om", the "One God" , the "Holy Trimurthi" , who appears sometimes as Vishnu, sometimres as Shiva and sometimes as Brahma .-- Eko Deva Trimurthi, "One God, three hypostasis"... The "Oneness Pentacostals" view God in the same way. Trinitarians, though they claim to believe in only One God, actually believe in three gods. The logical pitfalls associated with their point of view are insurmountable. that's why the catholic church has rendered the trinity a mystery which canot be comprehended and logically fathomed.




Furthermore, God did not die - and this was just a purely stupid statement by you. You know very well that it was the Man, Christ, Who died upon the cross, and that His divine nature never died. At least debate like an intelligent individual


Unfortunately the "Hypostatic Union" states that Christ was "God" and "man" in one being. Therefore when Christ died on the cross, both his humanity and his "Deity" must of necessity have died, otherwise you declare him two beings in the body of one man by default.

best wishes,

[Sparko]

Hi Crusader,



If something is "tri-personal" it cannot be the One God of the Shema, unless you believe the Shema declares a trinitarian God. If something is a "compound unity" it cannot be an absolute one. So your difficulty remains.

:offtopic:

Please stay on topic Pythagoras.

[Pythagoras]

:offtopic:

Please stay on topic Pythagoras.

How was my last post off topic? I was directly replying to Crusader.

[Sparko]

How was my last post off topic? I was directly replying to Crusader.

This thread is NOT about the trinity. You are attempting to derail it. You are warned (again)