Matrix Reloaded: C+... What Do You Think?

[bar Jonah]

Anyone else even nearly as disappointed in Matrix Reloaded as I am? I really wanna know.

My gosh... The story wasn't written as well as the first one, and frequently used "cop out" plot devices out of pure laziness. The ending was almost incomprehensible. The world-view philosophy in this movie is markedly different from the first one, creating a break in story continuity. Some of the movie's characters (especially villains) seemed to have no discernable purpose and are never explained or resolved in the plot. Many of the fight scenes seemed to just drag on... until I was wishing they'd just get it over with so we could see the next part of the story.

And perhaps most shocking of all... the special effects sucked. Considering the first Matrix was one of the most significant special effects movies ever created... this is almost criminal. Many of the special effects were blatantly fake. In many of the fight scenes, they didn't even use actors but only used CGI animated characters, and it was so obvious that it was painful. Sometimes they pasted a real human face on the animated body... and sometimes they didn't even bother.

Don't get me wrong, it was entertaining. But man, considering the necessarily high expectations, the movie was a huge let down. And I heard dozens of other people saying the same thing as we left the theater last night, so I know I'm not alone in that opinion.

The original Matrix, I'd give an A-. This movie... I'd give a C+ at best.

[geebob]

WARNING: MAJOR SPOILERS AHEAD

I totally felt the opposite. As I was watching the movie I felt like I was watching something even better than the first movie. Granted, I don't know that I'd stick with that assesment as the novelty of the movie is wearing off a bit.

There were a few threads untied, and the success in wrapping those up will of course be the third movie and hopefully the third movie will blow us away. But then that would be mimicking another great trilogy, Star Wars. And as for unexplained villains...Bobba Fett anyone? I'm actually happy not to have everything explained as a rich history is implied. I loved the albino reggae agents even if they don't fill us in much on them.

Quite frankly, I was blown away with some of the twists in the story. The oracle's explanation of rogue programs was pretty interesting. Maybe I'm just stupid but I didn't realize even in the first movie just how personal the AI made the programs and in this movie, the autonomy, free will (albeit a free will that may be adequately described by compatibilism), and more surprising personal aspects of the programs are emphasizeded to a tremendous degree.



MAJOR SPOILERS, IF YOU HAVEN'T SEEN THE MOVIE, YOU REALY SHOULDN'T BE READING THIS.


And Neo's encounter with the architect was pretty incredible. that there were six matrices and "neos" before hand!! that just goes to show that we haven't reached bottom of the rabbit hole yet! And the oracles hand in all this surprised me.

As for the notion that the philosophy changed, I don't see that it did really, as the metaphysic is still basically bhuddistic and none of that changed. Neo is still the bhuddisatva and the world is still illusory. Now there wasn't as much christian imagery as before (or at least I'm not smart enough to pick it out) but that sort of established that neo's messiaship which is no longer an issue, and though I think that it would have been ingenious to continue to weave the religious imagery through the next movie, I don't feel that it was a terrible loss. Those philosophical issues are much less, but others are emphasized but I wouldn't say that was necessarily a change.

And of course there was more of a flirtation with issues of determinism and the compatibility of free will and foreknowledge. As an open theist, how can you not appreciate that the bad guys were the determinists? :brow: albeit the final conclusion may still favor determinism.

And of course this only scratches the surface of the deep stuff broached in the film.

One thing that I did not like, and this is not a criticism in terms of what makes a great movie, I did not care for the temple scene for two reasons. Of course, you gotta love the praise and worship band of the future but aside from that, for one thing, the "prayer" was anything but. I don't recall any invocation of providence, and Morpheous statement of hope was in their survival in the past. For me, this is what the tower of Babel was about: community without God. Secondly, the dance scene at a religious gathering was quite sexual (with "grinding" a plenty) and resonated with the ancient paganism that involved human sexuality (such as temple prostitution) in it's communion with the gods, and of course this I believe was emphasized in panning back and forth from the dance to the intercourse of neo and trinity. If perfect worship of God is anything like this, we are too sinful to comprehend it without corruption, and as we are, we cannot mix these elements and I don't think it is even beneficial to mix it in art as art cannot lift us out of our our corrupt point of view.

But I don't expect the world to get worship right, and apart from that, I'd say it was a very enjoyable movie and one of the best I've seen.

[Jaltus]

I got a bit better than I expected. Remember that the second movie in a trilogy is always the weak one since it MUST leave open doors and it MUST change the philosophy of the first movie (otherwise there is no point in moving on).

I see this movie as a direct link to The Empire Strikes Back. The story progressed, a major wrinkle was added, the good guys made it out MOSTLY unscathed, but it was all very unsettling and had unsettling implications for what was to come next.

No, it was nowhere near as good as the first movie, but it is not supposed to be...the third one is.

I must admit that as soon as Neo got to the Oracle this time I had figured it out...it really bothers me that I did not pick it up before this.

As for the bad guy who controls the pale dreadlocks, I thought he was perfect. My biggest problems were in how weak Neo was and how poorly Agent Smith fit. Neo used the flying gig, but he never destroyed any other programs...if he was a real thinker, he destroys the architect and frees everyone and THEN goes after Trinity.

[quetzalphoenix]

The effects were definitely lacking in parts, and I thought that they did overdo it on some of the fight scenes--the choreography was too cluttered for me at least.

As far as plot, I agree with Socrates that as the 2nd in a trilogy it does need to shake our understanding of the 1st a bit. I'm waiting for the third to make a final decision. I liked the twist on vampires/ghosts as defective programs, and I did like a further exploration of some of the issues of free will and cause.

On a different note, I thought that the massive cave temple dance scene was a little overboard--they could have gotten the point across without some of the extra skin. It's frustrating to go into movies and have to deal with unexpected scenes like that.

[quetzalphoenix]

Today @ 04:36 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=98024#post98024)
geebob:

And of course there was more of a flirtation with issues of determinism and the compatibility of free will and foreknowledge. As an open theist, how can you not appreciate that the bad guys were the determinists? :brow: albeit the final conclusion may still favor determinism.


Yes, and I sat there thinking...the Architect is exactly the straw man God the open theists misrepresent Calvinists as believing in.

(Off topic, I know...but I couldn't resist...)

[Ryokan]

I liked it alot. After the first half hour I thought it was gonna be a big pretentious suckfest, but another half hour in and I was completely sold. Completely. I thought the fight sequences were very very well done, not to cluttered at all. And the Twins were great. A-

[bar Jonah]

The fight scenes were well done? :hrm:

They were just 3-d cartoons! LOL It was glaringly obvious there weren't any people in the vast majority of fight scene camera shots. :doh:

[Jin-Roh]

Spoiler warning

I'm pretty much in agreement with RightIdea's first statements. The villians really didn't have much of a purpose, and 'purpose' seems to be the big philosophical thing going on here.

What was up with Agent Smith? What the hell?

Also, in the last movie there were two "forces" (man and the machine), but now we seem to have two or three fighting against eachother. I was kinda confused.

It's definantly the "Empire Strikes Back" part of the Matrix Trilogy, but it did not reslove well at the end. That really bugged me. There were to many pointless fight scenes and not enough plot and explanation of what was going on.

I'm sure in hindsight (after the final movie), everything about this matrix episode will make sence. I just hope they are able to tie everything together, because they really screwed everything up.

[Jin-Roh]

One thing that I did not like, and this is not a criticism in terms of what makes a great movie, I did not care for the temple scene for two reasons. Of course, you gotta love the praise and worship band of the future but aside from that, for one thing, the "prayer" was anything but. I don't recall any invocation of providence, and Morpheous statement of hope was in their survival in the past. For me, this is what the tower of Babel was about: community without God. Secondly, the dance scene at a religious gathering was quite sexual (with "grinding" a plenty) and resonated with the ancient paganism that involved human sexuality (such as temple prostitution) in it's communion with the gods, and of course this I believe was emphasized in panning back and forth from the dance to the intercourse of neo and trinity. If perfect worship of God is anything like this, we are too sinful to comprehend it without corruption, and as we are, we cannot mix these elements and I don't think it is even beneficial to mix it in art as art cannot lift us out of our our corrupt point of view.

The friend who I saw the movie with described the temple scene as Steich Orgy from Dune. Maybe all that was more eastern-Buddhism thing since ancient Chinese and Japanesse cultures thought that when people climaxed they where one with the Gods. It was a very religious act to them.

...or it could've been just cheap porn.

Yeah that wasn't much of a prayer either. It did remind me of temple prostitution as well.

[A_Theist]

Yes, and I sat there thinking...the Architect is exactly the straw man God the open theists misrepresent Calvinists as believing in.

I don't see any misrepresentation of the calvinist God in Open Theist's thinking. And I honestly doubt the Wachowski brothers had the same God of open theism in mind when they created afformentioned character. So I believe that this portrayal runs a little deeper than the so-called strawman God of open theism. This has been the view of the calvinist God for a while. If this isn't the case, then I would have to say that the calvinist's are seriously having a hard time explaining their God in a cogent fashion.:shrug:

Peace,
Paul:read:

[Ryokan]

Right Idea, the 3-d peoples replaced the people on string of the first movie, which allowed for a larger variety of stunts and camera angles. Several scenes would have been impossible otherwise. They did all the string stuff in blue rooms, and used ff cgi tech to put them in the movie. I didn't find it distracting, and found the fight scenes exciting.

[bar Jonah]

Today @ 12:54 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=98802#post98802)
Ryokan:

Right Idea, the 3-d peoples replaced the people on string of the first movie, which allowed for a larger variety of stunts and camera angles. Several scenes would have been impossible otherwise. They did all the string stuff in blue rooms, and used ff cgi tech to put them in the movie. I didn't find it distracting, and found the fight scenes exciting.
I found it extremely distracting. I thought the fight scenes in the first movie were some of the most incredible of any action movie, ever. They were superhuman and yet I was able to fully suspend disbelief.

But in Reloaded, I couldn't even begin to suspend disbelief as I was watching something that was obviously a cartoon and not a person. It was unreal, and at times almost silly.

I don't mind the animation style of, say, Final Fantasy. But you shouldn't just jump back and forth from real people to what is obviously a bunch of cartoons, expect people to not notice, expect people to suspend disbelief.

[geebob]

The friend who I saw the movie with described the temple scene as Steich Orgy from Dune.

That also occured to me.






PREDICTION

I bet in the third movie, a faction of rogue programs will join the side of the humans and overthrow the status quo. Humanity and AI machinery will live in symbiotic harmony. The matrix won't necessarily be destroyed, but the humans will gain the autonomy to leave if and when it is practical. (you can't just flush em all down the drain at the same time).

I think they may have given the machines to much genuine personhood and to wipe them all out would be genocide.

Also, I think this was foreshadowed in the elder's speech on Zion's dependence on the machines.

[brother vinny]

Warning: Spoilers Ahead.

Let me start by saying that The Matrix Reloaded is not a bad film. Something of a disappointment after the expectations set by the first film and by the hyping of this one by producer Joel Silver? Yes. But by no means is the movie a complete failure.

Story-wise the film is pretty decent, if just a tad convoluted. There were so many story elements that it was hard to keep up-- practically ensuring repeat viewings by fans. If anything was disappointing about the story, it was the direction the Wachowski Brothers took with the story (and this disappointment may just lie in one's personal bias). One wonders if the writing-directing team wasn't subtlely insulting those who drew so many parallels between Keanu Reeves' Neo character and Christ. In the first film we are set up to believe that Neo is "the One," a messiah-figure phophesied to liberate humanity from the enslavement of the Matrix. In this film, we learn the the religion surrounding the One is a sham-- another construct of the machine intelligences designed to control anomalies (those who can bend the Matrix to their wills, such as Neo) that crop up among the human populace of the Matrix on a fairly cyclical basis. From what I understand of it, every time an anomaly pops up, the machines destroy the human city of Zion (according to the film, currently in it's seventh incarnation), and the One chooses a select few to free from the Matrix to begin rebuilding a new Zion. Thus, the person Morpheus referred to in the first film, who could bend the Matrix to his will, was merely the most recent anomaly prior to Neo. Instead of a vehicle for freedom, mythology and religion become just another mechanism of control. Or, as Trent Reznor once put it, "The slave frees himself only to find himself in a larger set of chains."

The good news is that this message endures only up until the end of the movie. Apparently Neo has developed some powers the Matrix didn't anticipate. He can now sense the presence of machines, such as sentinels, in the real world. He can also exert some sort of control over them, albeit with some harm to himself. How this is so isn't explained in this film, so hopefully the third movie will shed light on this. Maybe Neo will indeed be the one to free humanity from the Matrix once and for all, but one gets the feeling it won't be according to prophecy.

Neo isn't the only one to have developed since the last film. Agent Smith returns with the much-hyped ability to replicate himself. He has also freed himself from the control of the Matrix, and now exists as a rogue program. The film explains his presence thusly: Neo imprinted something of himself (including Neo's ability to rebel) upon Agent Smith when he destroyed Smith in the first film. So, instead of simply dying like he was programmed to do, Smith disobeyed his programming and now seeks to destroy Neo as Neo once sought to do to him. Furthermore, Smith has found his way into the real world, inhabiting the residual self-image of one of the Matrix runners and using a hard line to inhabit the runner's body. From this body Smith seeks to assassinate Neo.

One of the most surprising elements of this movie is that much of the too-cool-for-school attitude of the first film is missing. There are elements of it here and there when characters are in the Matrix, but much of the film takes place in the real world. Instead, this attitude is replaced by a very welcome sense of wonder, especially at the human city of Zion. Complaints I've read about the ritual dance/lovemaking scene seem to miss the point. Zion is a warm, utterly human place, existing in polar opposition to the cold, controlled world of the Matrix, and this scene beautifully captures that.

So, with so much that's right with this movie, what's wrong? Well, for starters, the viewer is overwhelemed with story elements. New characters abound, both in the Matrix and the real world, so much so that one wishes for a score card to keep track of them all. Philosophical talk flies so fast as to make one's head swim. Again, these things practically ensure repeat viewings by die-hard fans hoping to understand it all, but one can imagine casual fans scratching their heads and waiting for the next big action scene to happen.

Speaking of which, the action scenes are by-and-large done well, the best of which being the fourteen-minute freeway chase scene. I have minor complaints about the use of CGI in some scenes, especially the "big brawl" pitting Neo against multiple Smiths. The largest complaint I have is that the Matrix is, necessarily due to the events of the first film, no longer the menacing place it once was, at least for Neo. At only one time do we feel that he is in any real danger, when Agent Smith attempts to replicate himself through Neo, and even this is thwarted rather handily. Because of this, dramatic tension is negated, and Neo's fight scenes become litlle more than pleasing eye candy.

In conclusion, The Matrix Reloaded is an ambitious movie, but one which often and noticably fails to live up to its own ambitions. Maybe this film will look better when seen as the connective tissue between parts one and three. As it stands on its own merit, it is simply a good movie, not a great one. Thus, it earns:

:yipee: :yipee: :yipee: three (out of four) dancing bananas.

[geebob]

That was an excellent movie review Brother Vinny. I really appreciate the explanation of the religious meaning that you've given with regard to how the matrix relgion is sort of a sham.

I also appreciate your the explanation of of the temple scene, however, note that I mentioned that it was not criticism of what makes a good movie, and more specifically, I meant what makes a good story, but nevertheless, I stand by the criticism that I have given on that account. Largely the criticism was ignorant of the meaning of the temple scene, but the purpose was not to challenge the intended meaning and oppose it. Nevertheless what is portrayed does conflict something that christians should be opposed to and is in fact a very real and tangable threat even in real life and that is the seeking of peace and community without God. I suppose this isn't so much a defect in the story as a whole as it is a defect in the society to which this story is given and as that story reflects the values of our society, it reflects the flaws of our society.

Perhaps Robert Mapplethorp is a great photographer and perhaps his controversial photos have a meaning that goes beyond the controversy, but that does not negate that what he portrays is greiviously immoral (he's a photographer who portrays gay sex) and that should not be ignored merely on the strength of meaning and aesthetics of his art. (honestly though, I'm sure the meaning of many of his photographs is worthless-I believe for example, one of his works is a crucifix in a jar of urine-but I think you can get the gist of what I am saying here).

[brother vinny]

Thanks, geebob.

BTW, I wasn't referring specifically to your critique of the temple scene, but to assorted reviews I'd read where the reviewer thought the scene unneeded (story-wise).

[brother vinny]

. . . I hope everyone was smart enough to stay for the end credits, after which there was a teaser for The Matrix Revolutions (!) .

:teeth:

[bar Jonah]

Yesterday @ 03:41 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=99661#post99661)
Brother Vinny:

. . . I hope everyone was smart enough to stay for the end credits, after which there was a teaser for The Matrix Revolutions (!) .

:teeth:
Darn, wish I'd known that.

That way, I could have intentionally missed it, instead of accidentally, like I did. :huh:

[Jaltus]

Worst trailer ever.

[brother vinny]

Yesterday @ 02:48 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=100610#post100610)
Jaltus:

Worst trailer ever.

No no, Jaltus, you got to affect a very snooty voice when you say that, placing pauses between eash of the words:

"Worst. . . trailer. . . EVER!" (We need a smiley that looks like "Comic Book Guy" from The Simpsons, don't we?)

I didn't think the trailer was that bad; I've seen worse. Most of the trailers for T3 have, sad to say, done nothing to pique my interest in the film, or even to allay my fears that this movie will drag the Terminator franchise in to an abyss (and not James Cameron's Abyss, since he wisely washed his hands of this project) of silly mediocrity.

[DanielleJoy]

I looooooooooooooooooooooooooooved the movie, the thing you need to consider with the fx is that there are so many that you don't even realize ARE fx... for instance, 90% of the cars in the highway scene AREN'T real... i can't imagine how many rendering hours went into that movie... you can't get any better than what they did, look at how fake star wars loooks in comparison, especially when it comes to fake characters... and consider that in order to give superhuman traits, the characters HAD to be CGI'd at some points.

[Ryokan]

I agree with Danielle.

[mattbballman19]

Spoiler!!!!!!!!

The speech by Morpheus and the subsequent dancing sequence were a totally superflous pimple on the face of that beauty of a movie. Other than that, I LOVED it!!!!!!!

matt

[Epoetker]

Vaguely disturbing love-with-plugs scenes a bit out the hizzouse.

Otherwise, the biggest thing about this movie is that it's FUNNY! Agent Smith rules! The Merovingian is the best French villain I've seen in a long time. The throwaway line that describes cursing in French like "wiping your [rear] with silk" had every single person in the theater rolling.

Eh, as far as determinism goes, all those machines are is pretentious God-wannabes. The Architect lied about it being impossible for Neo to save Trinity-either from ignorance or malice. Just wondering how it's suddenly possible for Neo to kill Sentinels in the real world. If the sequel goes all Metal Gear Solid on me I will instantly lose all respect forthe Wachowskis.

[bar Jonah]

Today @ 06:33 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=101637#post101637)
Epoetker:
Just wondering how it's suddenly possible for Neo to kill Sentinels in the real world. If the sequel goes all Metal Gear Solid on me I will instantly lose all respect forthe Wachowskis.
I have little doubt many of you will think I'm just saying this to be cool, but that's okay.

Frankly, I saw this coming before I got halfway through the movie. LOL I even considered it an outside possibility during the first movie, and halfway through this one, I believed it was almost inevitable. The only thing I wasn't sure about was whether they'd go ahead and reveal it in this one... or wait til the third installment.

[Epoetker]

"Midichlorians" is not an answer...

[DanielleJoy]

i *think* that neo's sudden ablility has something to do with the fact that agent smith is now in the real world... and the balance has to be made even... presence of the matrix in the real world... therefore neo has matrix abilities in the real world... i don't know how they could execute this, but the theory makes sense to me

[Epoetker]

No...only Agent Smith's consciousness was transferred. Just as normal Agents have the ability to force themselves into the brains of those connected to the Matrix (thus immediately warping the "residual self-image" into Agent persona) so Smith retained the ability to copy himself that way. Whether his outside self can still communicate with those inside is another matter entirely. I wonder if this "human" experience might change the way Smith #43 in the real world relates to the #1-100 and counting in the Matrix. That whole scene where he was cutting himself just to experience true, non-healable, non-Matrixy, feeling was a gruesome if prescient commentary on the subject. One good question-what will his residual self image look like immediately after he plugs himself back in? I figure everyone's gonna be asking questions about THAT one...

Ahem. One copy of the Smith pattern now exists within a person in the real world. If he can affect stuff in the real world, it would probably be through manipulation of some part of human physiology that even the humans didn't know about. Which is either very good or very bad for the film's overall Christian message (one annoying thing about using films like these for sermonettes is that this sequel leaves so many theological questions hanging that you can't say anything definitive on for fear the Wachowskis decided to do a 180 on you come November. But apparently one of Reeves's big lines in the next one is "Because I chose to.", so be happily prepared for the annihilation of determinism, at least!)

[Ryokan]

to start, Epo, I liked MGS1 & MGS2. Don't knock completely cracked out plotlines:cir:
My personal theory is that Smith, not the machines, will prove to be humanities greatest threat. Smith could concievably replicate himself onto every person in the Matrix, use his personage in real life to free all the people he copied, and thereby destroy all of humanity and turn off the machine. Agent Smith rules the world because there is only Agent Smith.

I have no idea how neo killed the Sentinel's in the "real" world.

[brother vinny]

As to determinism's place in this movie: I think determinism has already been dealt a serious blow. Remember Neo's dream of Trinity at the beginning? He dreams Trinity is shot by the agent and then she falls into the automobile below, followed by the agent. Because of Neo's choice, when the real event occurred, Neo caught Trinity and the agent was the one who slammed into the vehicle. And yes, I think determinism will be obliterated in part three.

As to how Neo caused the EMP: I don't think the Wachowskis will do anything so lame as to make the supposed "real world" another "Matrix." For starters, such has already been done in movies like The Thirteenth Floor. What I think happened is this: When Neo did his little dive into Agent Smith in part one, we already know something of Neo was imprinted upon Smith. Who says the imprinting doesn't work both ways? Maybe something of Smith (and hence the Matrix, since Smith is a construct of same) was imprinted upon Neo, which explains why he sees possible future patterns of the Matrix in his sleep, and may also explain how he could feel the squiddies coming and was able to halt them.

I need to go see this movie again. :huh:

[Jaltus]

I think BV is going the right way, but he missed the important part of the speech by the Architect.

Neo has a part of the coding of the Matrix inside him which is why the machines need him to go into the core, to fix the coding. By having the coding within him, he is able to tell where the machines are. He did not EMP the squids, he stopped their programming since he is connected to their coding now.

[Epoetker]

Jaltus deserves a "Whoa" and a pearl for that bit of wisdom.

[Kenny]

I loved the movie. I give it an A.

For those disappointed that the Christian imagery didn’t seem to carry through, you shouldn’t be. The imagery was never explicitly Christian to begin with. Geebob is right in noticing the Buddhist connotations, but the best fit, by far, is Gnosticism. The manner in which Christian imagery is employed in the Matrix is very close to the manner in which it was employed by the second century Gnostics. The problem with the world is not human moral evil. The problem with the world is, rather, that it is the creation of an evil power which has conspired to trap human souls (or “minds” in Matrix terminology) in a delusion. What is required to be liberated is not repentance but Gnosis (a secret knowledge only shared by a select few) – in this case, knowledge of what the Matrix actually is. As the Christ figure, Neo enters the Matrix to combat those who are holding the keys and blocking the doors that have locked people in ignorance.

The second movie amply confirms the Gnostic theme. In it, we meet the Architect. Of course, this is obviously the demiurge of Gnostic mythology, the evil god who created the material world (often identified with the god of the Old Testament in Gnostic mythology). The Oracle is Sophia or Wisdom. In Gnostic mythology, Sophia’s desire to know the One results in chaos in the original wholeness and eventuates in the birth of the demiurge (okay, so the parallel isn’t exact here, but we shouldn’t expect it to be – in any case, it is still close enough to be very suggestive) ultimately resulting in the creation of the material world (hence, we find that the Oracle is the “mother” of the Matrix). The implicit animism hinted at by the Oracle (personal programs control the birds, the wind, etc.) as well as the disorder and conflict among some of the programs (or gods) also fit the Gnostic scheme very well.

As for the prophecy, I think it’s true. The prophecy said that when the One returned to the Source, the war would be over. But Neo hasn’t done that yet. He only spoke with the Architect. The Source is beyond the Architect and Neo hasn’t been there yet. So the prophecy has not yet been falsified. In the next movie, Neo will go to the Source and it will be fulfilled. I suspect, like Geebob, that the humans and machines will then enter into some sort of harmonious symbiotic relationship after the One returns to the Source (and thus restores the harmony in the original wholeness just as Gnostic mythology predicts).

As for the temple scene, perhaps I’m off here, but I was reminded of the Golden calf scene in The Ten Commandments (of course, that scene was far less explicit, but sexual license was implied by the narration and we saw depictions of “lewd” dancing). Of course, we know that after the Golden Calf, judgment follows. Perhaps the connection was deliberate. The people of Zion, at that point, were trusting in a false hope that they would be saved from destruction. If I’m right, that mitigates Geebob’s criticism of the scene. This is just speculation on my part though.

As for Agent Smith, I think he fits into the overall plan. Smith himself said he had to fulfill his purpose. And the rest of the plot implies, that though the various programs and humans may be at odds with one another, their interactions are all coordinated by a larger deterministic scheme. Smith may have rebelled against the System, but so did Neo and we now know that Neo’s rebellion was part of the plan all along. Plus, there was a hint that Smith’s presence played a role in assisting the destruction of Zion and so His exit from the Matrix actually helped serve the end of the System. However, I don’t think the Architect has it all under wraps. I believe the Oracle was sincere when she said that she wanted to help the humans and the machines live in harmony. I believe that what she set in motion by helping the Architect construct the Matrix was part of a broader plan to defeat the Architect and to bring about this end all along. I believe she is a fundamentally good power, but she has to play within the rules of the System just like all the other programs.

But, we’ll see…

As far as the determinism goes, as a Calvinist, compatibilist and metaphysical determinist, I found the philosophical issues raised very interesting. But I wasn’t looking to this movie for any sort of vindication of my theology (or any other orthodox Christian theology). The underlying world view is Gnostic in orientation and (because of the first movie) I expected that going in. As it goes, I expect libertarian free will to somehow win the day in the last film.

God Bless,
Kenny

[bar Jonah]

As for what will be the great secret of the third installment might be... just a little prediction.

Anyone see another nice little movie called The Thirteenth Floor? :cool:

[brother vinny]

Today @ 08:00 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=102649#post102649)
RightIdea:

As for what will be the great secret of the third installment might be... just a little prediction.

Anyone see another nice little movie called The Thirteenth Floor? :cool:

I think you're wrong on that one, RightIdea. I don't think there'll be a "Matrix-within-a-Matrix."

Care to wager on it? :hamster:

[geebob]

Thanks Kenny. That was helpful.

[Epoetker]

I think this comic just about clears it all up:

http://www.penny-arcade.com/view.php3?date=2001-11-30

[DanielleJoy]

i'm pretty confident there won't be a matrix within a matrix... i'll comment more later

[geebob]

If the machines, instead of using "the One" to reset the matrix just let humanity develope AI technology, then there could be a matrix within the matrix that the movies are about. :smile:

[Ignatius J. Reilly]

:shy: I liked the first one way better. The second one had better visual effects, and better character development...but it just seemed over-stylized

[DanielleJoy]

If there were a matrix within a matrix, why would smith have been so adamant about getting the codes for zion's mainframe in the first movie? wouldn't it just not matter? i really hope they don't go that way, it would be an awful plot development, and it would give absolutely no closure... i'm hoping that they're leading us to think it so that they can surpise the living daylights out of us when we watch the next one... like they did when they revealed the oracle to be the mother of the matrix. making it a matrix within a matrix would be completely unoriginal and a cheap cop-out.

[Dilton]

Actually the matrix is not the simulation, it is the real world. And the real world is a simulation created by humans to keep the machines occupied trying to fight computer generated human consciences, like Neo or Trinity.

[bar Jonah]

Today @ 10:23 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=104484#post104484)
DanielleJoy:

If there were a matrix within a matrix, why would smith have been so adamant about getting the codes for zion's mainframe in the first movie? wouldn't it just not matter? i really hope they don't go that way, it would be an awful plot development, and it would give absolutely no closure... i'm hoping that they're leading us to think it so that they can surpise the living daylights out of us when we watch the next one... like they did when they revealed the oracle to be the mother of the matrix. making it a matrix within a matrix would be completely unoriginal and a cheap cop-out.
Not if it turns out that there are a plethora of levels of the Matrix... like levels of existence that the One must evolve up into, from level to level, like a person attaining godhood, or like many levels of incarnation. It could go beyond The Thirteenth Floor. This would mean that the end of the final Matrix movie would only be the beginning.

Besides, what does Smith's search for Zion's keys be irrelevant in a Matrix-within-Matrix model? Seems just as relevant as ever, to me. Especially if Smith didn't/doesn't know about the multiple levels of Matrix existence.

[DanielleJoy]

Today @ 12:29 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=104495#post104495)
Dilton:

Actually the matrix is not the simulation, it is the real world. And the real world is a simulation created by humans to keep the machines occupied trying to fight computer generated human consciences, like Neo or Trinity.

hehe whoa... never thought of that one...

anyway... if the matrix were within another matrix, there would be no reason for the machines and the agents to go berzerk over people leaving and going to zion, because they're getting just as many btu's of energy if the people escape to the second matrix as they are getting if they're in the first... and by attacking the people of zion, they're killing off people who are still feeding them energy. if zion were in a matrix, the machines would be better off just leaving them alone there, content in their illusion of freedom.

[DanielleJoy]

btw... never seen 13th floor... :-X

[Em7add11]

I'm going to see this movie tonight finally. Once that happens I'll read the rest of this thread. :bunny:

[A_Theist]

anyway... if the matrix were within another matrix, there would be no reason for the machines and the agents to go berzerk over people leaving and going to zion, because they're getting just as many btu's of energy if the people escape to the second matrix as they are getting if they're in the first... and by attacking the people of zion, they're killing off people who are still feeding them energy. if zion were in a matrix, the machines would be better off just leaving them alone there, content in their illusion of freedom.




http://www.corporatemofo.com/stories/051803matrix.htm

This link might give you some insite on the Architect. (Amongst other things in the movie.)

[Em7add11]

Today @ 09:17 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=105484#post105484)
A_Theist:

http://www.corporatemofo.com/stories/051803matrix.htm

This link might give you some insite on the Architect. (Amongst other things in the movie.)

That is a really good article, somebody did his homework, hehe. I thought the point about Neo having free-will was interesting because at almost every junction the machines told him that they were expecting him. All he's done so far is what he's supposed (has) to do: fullfill the same role that his predecessors did, exactly like they did (well...except for dooming humanity, which I assume is why there's another movie).

[johnransom]

I side with those who thought this movie was a big disappointment. Now, granted that I got soaked to the skin getting to the theater only to find out that the advertised "giant screen experience" didn't exist (thanks, Muvico) when I got there, and was thus in a really bad mood; however,the movie fell far below expectations.

For a start, it was highly pretentious. I got tired of the pseudo-religious ramblings really early. It was like Kung Fu in cool clothes and shades. Beyond that, it seemed to be trying to do the comedy-of-manners style of the TV series La Femme Nikita (whose star, BTW, is the lead actress in the upcoming [i]League of Extraordinary Gentlemen[i/]), but merely ended up being stilted rather than sophisticated. The Merovingian and Persephone added to this impression - and ended up as the best part of the movie, IMO. The Wachowskis lucked out in making a major baddie a Frog wannabe.

And what was the deal with the shades anyway? I didn't remember them as quite so prevalent in the original. I found them extremely distracting in the end; it was as if the movie was deliberately trying to make a joke out of itself.

I also didn't understand why Neo didn't simply destroy all the agents the way he had with Smith, rather than go through elaborate fight scenes and not kill them at all (OK, it didn't work with Smith - but Neo didn't know that). Nor did I get why the Matrix would allow rogue programs to exist - I can understand why rogue humans would be permitted to exist in the Matrix, since they could get out, but the rogue programs couldn't (except for Smith, and even he had spent at least six months inside before getting out). Why would the Architect design programs it could not delete? That didn't make sense to me.

The Architect too seemed rather cliched - the room looked like it came straight out of an early 70's cheesy sci-fi flick and the Architect reminded me of James Coburn in any bad guy role he ever played. he also seemed to contradict himself: he first stated that there had been six Matrices, then later said there had been two (unless he meant that the second successful Matrix had been run five times). Also, if Neo was an "anomaly", then how come he had acted to that point in apparently fully predictable ways? Especially if choice was the true cause of his anomaly. And surely choice wasn't limited to Neo - or was the freeing of all the other human minds predetermined?

Maybe I need to see the movie again, but on one viewing I thought it was simply an action flick that took itself way too seriously.

[Ignatius J. Reilly]

And what was the deal with the shades anyway? I didn't remember them as quite so prevalent in the original. I found them extremely distracting in the end; it was as if the movie was deliberately trying to make a joke out of itself.

Yeah besides being over-stylized...I think that they borrowed the shades idea from "They Live". Put 'em on and everything is viewed the way it really is.

[DanielleJoy]

Alright, my boyfriend and I watched it again last night, and we were talking about it, and he figured out some MAJOR points that were more important than they seemed at first. it also explains why zion has to be real. I'll just post what he posted in a forum he goes to:

"in the conversation with the architect, the architect gives the ENTIRE thing away, i didn't realize it before because i originally mis-heard one of the lines *misinterpreted, whatever*...

when the architect talked about the fact that it was the 6th time they were going to destroy ''it'' i thought he was talking about the matrix but he wasn't, he was talking about zion... ZION was going to be destroyed... the reason no one knew that there had been previous one's is because all of the human beings that existed in the real world during each successive ''one'' were DEAD

not only does this mean that the war has been going for over 1,000 years *morpheus thought it was 2199, that was as long as they were keeping count, which means it's been 200 years since the last one, that must be about average*, but it ALSO means that zion is 100% DEFINITELY in the real world!

if only 99% of the human beings in the matrix accepted the program *the matrix*, it means that 1% of the population wouldn't accept it AT ALL *the anomaly*... THOSE were the people that got out to live in Zion and repopulate it over and over
****
the right door led to the source, NEO was carrying the original programming for the matrix, which would reset it, and he would be allowed to choose 23 people out of the matrix to come to the real world and repopulate Zion! thus accounting for the anomaly! (in the first movie remember morpheus saying ''it was he who freed the first of us''???)
****

the reason that this time will be different is simple... OBVIOUSLY none of the previous ''ones'' EVER took the door to the left... they had all gone through the door on the right, unable to handle the thought of being responsible for the eradication of mankind... NONE OF THEM EVER WENT BACK TO THE REAL WORLD AT THAT POINT AND REALIZED THEY HAD POWER OVER THE MACHINES IN THE REAL WORLD!

neo took the left door... the matrix is about to have a massive system crash and will be destroyed *the matrix has never been destroyed before, ONLY RESET!* the only problem with this equation is the destruction of Zion! not the destruction of the matrix! all of the previous ''ones'' were convinced by the architect that there was nothing they could do to save zion but that there WAS something they could do to save the human race!

neo took the left door because of trinity... they both got out of the matrix and are now on a ship that MUST get back to Zion before the machines tunnel to it at all costs...

and that is where the second movie leaves us... unmistakeably in the REAL WORLD about to fight a REAL BATTLE against the ACTUAL MACHINES... with neo, somehow, having REAL POWER over the machines

it also means that at the end of the third movie, neo will NOT wake up in front of a computer screen, because the matrix is about to be completely destroyed and all of the humans used to power it, lost... the machines will have no power...

i believe, in the third movie, the machines will be slowly running out of power and that will be the end factor enabling the humans to destroy them... that and the fact that neo can wave them to the ground...

the jury is still out on exactly what it is smith in the real world will have to do with anything... two battles against smith? in the matrix and the real world? who knows"

other important points: when neo and smith fight in the real world, neither of them will have ever fought without the ability to "bend" the rules... both of them will be severly disadvantaged... in the scene with the kid that neo saved, trinity remarks "you know what they say about the life you save" to neo... meaning "the life you save may be your own"... that kid is going to come in BIGTIME in revolutions. he has the advantage that he has never used the "rule-bending"... he is used to the limits of human power.

i love this movie, it wasn't a dissapointment at all to me, but the exact opposite... it completely exceeded my expectations. it was, rather, a blockbuster movie with an original and intriguing plot instead of just having merits for its fight scenes... difficult to find these days.

[Dilton]

Thank you, DanielleJoy, I was going to answer johnransom, but you took the words out of my mou... er keyboard.

[Dilton]

Today @ 12:38 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=106846#post106846)
DanielleJoy:



in the scene with the kid that neo saved, trinity remarks "you know what they say about the life you save" to neo... meaning "the life you save may be your own"... that kid is going to come in BIGTIME in revolutions. he has the advantage that he has never used the "rule-bending"... he is used to the limits of human power.



The last of the Animatrix, which is called "a kid´s story", tells the tale of Neo saving that kid from the Matrix. It is very amazing.

[DanielleJoy]

Today @ 11:39 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=107248#post107248)
Dilton:

Thank you, DanielleJoy, I was going to answer johnransom, but you took the words out of my mou... er keyboard.

hehe :teeth:

yeah, dilton, i've been wanting to see the animatrix for the storyline developments, i'm going to go see about that now actually...

[johnransom]

Fascinating, DJ. Keep a copy of that post till Christmas to see how good your predictions were.

And I guess my last comment was spot on - I probably should see it again.

[Dilton]

yes, that would be my advice, go out and see the movie again, with the DJ´s "predictions" in mind, and you will see they are not predictions.

[dawnghost]

Yesterday @ 12:38 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=106846#post106846)
DanielleJoy:
other important points: when neo and smith fight in the real world, neither of them will have ever fought without the ability to "bend" the rules... both of them will be severly disadvantaged... in the scene with the kid that neo saved, trinity remarks "you know what they say about the life you save" to neo... meaning "the life you save may be your own"... that kid is going to come in BIGTIME in revolutions. he has the advantage that he has never used the "rule-bending"... he is used to the limits of human power.

i love this movie, it wasn't a dissapointment at all to me, but the exact opposite... it completely exceeded my expectations. it was, rather, a blockbuster movie with an original and intriguing plot instead of just having merits for its fight scenes... difficult to find these days.

thanks for your post, it's exactly as I saw that movie.

I would like to add some comments, though (btw, Dilton's kind of my neighbour, we saw the movie together):

first point
when you say of the fight between Neo and Smith, if I could make a prediction... I don't think their "ultimate fight" will be in the real world. I think it will be inside the Matrix.

remember when Smith talks to Neo for the first time, when he says that something from Neo was imprinted into him, and he was compelled to stay, compelled to disobey? well, Smith's had a unique chance now: to feel as a man, not as a machine, outside the Matrix (he cuts his hand to experience pain and bleeding). I think this experience will be a critical advantage for him once he's back in the Matrix for the final duel (trailer for the Revolutions, it shows a lot of Smiths cheering for one very strong one, who's going to fight Neo).


second point
I think this is pretty clear but anyway. the Oracle's predictions, as I see them, are TRUE, and Neo's shown lack of faith in the end of the movie, just like Morpheus and Trinity. the Oracle is fighting for a new partnership between machines and men (she says that to Neo, that only together they will survive) and when Neo asks "what if I make the wrong choice?" she answers "then Zion will fall".

Zion is not destroyed yet. the Oracle knew that Trinity was going to re-enter the Matrix to save Neo, and that her action would be critical for Neo to make the decisive, right choice.

the prophecy will be fulfilled.



ok, there goes my two cents.

:idea: oh yeah, and I think the movie is very, very 'christian', or at least has lots of christian elements in it. that guy that was guarding the Keymaker, the one that spoke french... he was advocating that purpose didn't exist and all... didn't he resemble Satan for you? think about him. and all the talk about creation and purpose... talk about ID! that's another thing that leads me to think that Neo, Morpheus and Trinity fell for the Architect's bluff and lacked faith in the Oracle at the end ("it was all a lie").

[dawnghost]

Yesterday @ 04:43 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=107250#post107250)
Dilton:
The last of the Animatrix, which is called "a kid´s story", tells the tale of Neo saving that kid from the Matrix. It is very amazing.

actually, the kid saves himself :teeth:

[dizzle]

Well I came away from the movie not liking very much but now after hearing the analysis, perhaps I too need to see it again.

[dawnghost]

Today @ 02:47 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=108011#post108011)
Dee Dee Warren:
Well I came away from the movie not liking very much but now after hearing the analysis, perhaps I too need to see it again.

please do! and then tell us what you think!!

:joy:

[DanielleJoy]

Yeah, I've seen the trailer for Revolutions, and there definetly is a HUGE showdown between Smith and Neo in the Matrix, but I think that the fight will more than likely happen in the real world as well... if Neo fights Smith in the Matrix, there are still hundreds more of him... if he kills the man who is ''hosting'' Smith's ''essence''... it could mean an end to the Smiths altogether... maybe, not sure about that one.

The Oracle's predictions haven't failed... she said in the first one that either Morpheus or Neo would die... Neo DID die. She said in this one things to the effect that Trinity would die (even though she said it was up to Neo, it seemed pretty inevitable)... technically, Trinity DID die. I guess bringing people back is a loop in the system, lol.

[dawnghost]

Today @ 06:34 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=108172#post108172)
DanielleJoy:

Yeah, I've seen the trailer for Revolutions, and there definetly is a HUGE showdown between Smith and Neo in the Matrix, but I think that the fight will more than likely happen in the real world as well... if Neo fights Smith in the Matrix, there are still hundreds more of him... if he kills the man who is ''hosting'' Smith's ''essence''... it could mean an end to the Smiths altogether... maybe, not sure about that one.

The Oracle's predictions haven't failed... she said in the first one that either Morpheus or Neo would die... Neo DID die. She said in this one things to the effect that Trinity would die (even though she said it was up to Neo, it seemed pretty inevitable)... technically, Trinity DID die. I guess bringing people back is a loop in the system, lol.

yes, exactly! thanks for pointing the Oracle's predictions in the first movie as well, you're certainly right. she said "sorry kid, you have it in you, but it's like you're waiting for something... maybe in your next life".

about the hundreds of Smiths, though... I have NO idea how the Smiths are gonna be destroyed, but I don't believe in "hosting Smith's essence"... I think every single one of them is the original Smith, but one of his instances has had the privilege of visiting the world in human flesh. that doesn't necessarily make him the original one. :ponder:

[DanielleJoy]

Yeah, i understand what you mean, that's why i wasn't so sure on that one... but then again, Smith is in that guy, and the other ones are there while the guy isn't plugged into the matrix at all... so if all of the other Smiths are defeated, that one in Zion will still have to be killed... so there will have to be a showdown with him.

[dawnghost]

Today @ 06:58 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=108186#post108186)
DanielleJoy:

Yeah, i understand what you mean, that's why i wasn't so sure on that one... but then again, Smith is in that guy, and the other ones are there while the guy isn't plugged into the matrix at all... so if all of the other Smiths are defeated, that one in Zion will still have to be killed... so there will have to be a showdown with him.

yes exactly! but I believe that one who isn't plugged will somehow return to the Matrix for the showdown... but that's just an idea. :teeth:

[Wesley's son]

05-20-2003 @ 12:35 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=102304#post102304)
Jaltus:

I think BV is going the right way, but he missed the important part of the speech by the Architect.

Neo has a part of the coding of the Matrix inside him which is why the machines need him to go into the core, to fix the coding. By having the coding within him, he is able to tell where the machines are. He did not EMP the squids, he stopped their programming since he is connected to their coding now.

Inside his "wetware" ?

[DanielleJoy]

Today @ 02:41 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=108201#post108201)
dawnghost:



yes exactly! but I believe that one who isn't plugged will somehow return to the Matrix for the showdown... but that's just an idea. :teeth:

that's definetly a possibility... i wonder whether or not he'd come in looking like Smith or like the host... if he looks like Smith... the other people on the ship he goes in with are going to go dezi style... ''Lucy!!! You got some 'splainin to doooo!!!''

[johnransom]

Today @ 01:41 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=108201#post108201)
dawnghost:
yes exactly! but I believe that one who isn't plugged will somehow return to the Matrix for the showdown... but that's just an idea. :teeth:
My thought was that Neo and real-world Smith end Reloaded plugged into the same (medical?) equipment. Therefore, they probably have a connection to each other. I was thinking that given their mutual anomalous condition they could construct and fight in their own private little matrix.

To DJ: one thing I didn't get in your predictions - you thought that the sentinels have not yet reached Zion. If that were so, then how come everyone is dead?

[Dilton]

Were did you get the idea everyone is dead???

The ships tried to pull off a counter-attack by attacking the digging machines, but smith on the real world screwed all up by activating an emp, and so the human strike force were killed, and only smith-in-the-real-world saved himself.

If I am right, there´s still 24 hours before the machines reach zion. Why don´t you pay attention when you watch the god damned movie?

Watch the profanity, this is a family site.

[DanielleJoy]

what dilton said, the sentinals didn't hit zion, they hit a group of *i think* five ships that were sent to slow them down, smith's host hit the bmp, and the sentinals killed everyone else *out of those few ships*

they do have about 24 hours until all get out breaks loose...

i think the medical eq. thing is kind of a stretch... maybe they'll use it, i don't know, it really isn't the same kind of connection at all, but in the preview for revolutions, neo is fighting smith with all of the other smith's watching, so..... i'd think it's in the real matrix

[Dilton]

When I go to rottentomatoes.com and read some negative reviews about the movie, I realize that most of the critics didn´t even understand the movie accordingly, and that is happening with the majority of people who actually did not enjoy the movie: they just simply didn´t have a clue of what was happening on the big screen.

I guess the watchouski brothers overestimated the intelligence of the people in the world.

[bar Jonah]

Today @ 07:18 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=108851#post108851)
Dilton:

When I go to rottentomatoes.com and read some negative reviews about the movie, I realize that most of the critics didn´t even understand the movie accordingly, and that is happening with the majority of people who actually did not enjoy the movie: they just simply didn´t have a clue of what was happening on the big screen.

I guess the watchouski brothers overestimated the intelligence of the people in the world.
If a couple of people didn't get the movie, that is pretty much the problem of those viewers.

If a large number of people don't get the movie, that's the fault of the movie makers.

I guess it's no surprise that the lame "Bruce Almighty" has already overtaken Matrix Reloaded at the box office! Wow! What a telling sign...

[dawnghost]

Today @ 03:03 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=108871#post108871)
RightIdea:
If a couple of people didn't get the movie, that is pretty much the problem of those viewers.

If a large number of people don't get the movie, that's the fault of the movie makers.

I guess it's no surprise that the lame "Bruce Almighty" has already overtaken Matrix Reloaded at the box office! Wow! What a telling sign...

:hrm:

* dawnghost throws away his Schöenberg CD and goes to the store to buy N'SYNC albums.

[DanielleJoy]

i don't care if people don't get it... should a book be bad just because people don't understand it? i LOVE LOVE LOVE being able to THINK about a movie... i don't care about special effects AT ALL. not one iota. yes, it's awesome that they have the cool effects, and it's mind boggling, especially now that i'm getting into graphic design, but if it weren't there, i wouldn't like the movie any less at all. you have to expect some things to not make sense, this is the segue between the beginning and the conclusion... they have to leave open ends and unanswered questions so that you go OHHHHHH!!!!! in november.

[bar Jonah]

Today @ 12:03 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=109102#post109102)
DanielleJoy:

i don't care if people don't get it... should a book be bad just because people don't understand it? i LOVE LOVE LOVE being able to THINK about a movie... i don't care about special effects AT ALL. not one iota. yes, it's awesome that they have the cool effects, and it's mind boggling, especially now that i'm getting into graphic design, but if it weren't there, i wouldn't like the movie any less at all. you have to expect some things to not make sense, this is the segue between the beginning and the conclusion... they have to leave open ends and unanswered questions so that you go OHHHHHH!!!!! in november.
I love movies that require me to think, too. I strongly prefer intelligent movies. But if most people don't "get" a movie, then that is the fault of the movie maker. If you are a communicator by trade, and you dont' know how to effectively communicate to people, then you're the one at fault, not the audience. That's the bottom line.

[brother vinny]

Today @ 09:03 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=108871#post108871)
RightIdea:

I guess it's no surprise that the lame "Bruce Almighty" has already overtaken Matrix Reloaded at the box office! Wow! What a telling sign...

I think the poll numbers here are an even more telling sign.

[bar Jonah]

Today @ 12:32 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=109152#post109152)
Brother Vinny:
I think the poll numbers here are an even more telling sign.
Ah, yes, I'm sure you're right. A polling size of 25 within a narrow demographic is bound to be far more accurate than, say, the whole movie-going population of America. :thumb:

[johnransom]

Yesterday @ 09:48 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=108540#post108540)
Dilton:

Were did you get the idea everyone is dead???

The ships tried to pull off a counter-attack by attacking the digging machines, but smith on the real world screwed all up by activating an emp, and so the human strike force were killed, and only smith-in-the-real-world saved himself.

If I am right, there´s still 24 hours before the machines reach zion. Why don´t you pay attention when you watch the * edited by a moderator * movie?


Like I said, I wasn't in the greatest of moods when I got to the theater, but even so things weren't exactly clear. Since the guy who brought the report was from the fleet, I had assumed that he was part of the force defending against the sentinels. Therefore, when he said that there was only one survivor of the massacre, that it had to be a massacre of Zion itself, since i) five ships hardly constitutes a massacre (fifty crew total maybe?) and ii) if he was also in the fleet himself, then that made two survivors.

I have to agree with RightIdea; it seems the producers were so preoccupied with making a cool movie they forgot to make it comprehensible. Forcing moviegoers to watch a movie more than once just to get the basic gist is definitely bad moviemaking; if you're making a movie that people want to see more than once, then it should be because the movie has background subtleties to it that an initial and relatively superficial viewing might miss. This is especially true in an age when it costs $10 or more to see a movie.

[Dilton]

Look, I don´t want to be rude. The movie isn´t hard to understand. Okay, okay, lots of philosophies and even theology-alike subjects inside the movie, but one does not need to understand that to know what is going on.

I mean, if you have seen the first matrix and have understood it completely, you will be able to fully understand the sequel. Some sequences near the ending are at a fast pace, but nothing too fast one cannot understand.

I watched the movie with its original score in English, and portuguese subtitles (I live in Brazil). I mean, as you can see, I´m not even a native american, and I was able to get the whole idea of the movie.

Forgive me anyone, but I will stick with my opinion that the majority of the viewers are indeed stupid.

[DanielleJoy]

considering how much movies like ''ghost ship'' sell, i'll say that a lot of that group of standard american moviegoers expect to have a movie that just hands them a well developed plot that they can grasp without any work... i understood a majority of the movie the first time i watched it... the second time just tied things together... how many other movies do the same thing? memento, sixth sense, i could name more, but another thing is that these other movies HAVE to explain them within themselves, this movie still has another installment to get everything out, you're SUPPOSED to be left scratching your head.

[Dilton]

DanielleJoy couldn´t be more right.

[dawnghost]

Today @ 12:22 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=109400#post109400)
DanielleJoy:
the second time just tied things together... how many other movies do the same thing? memento, sixth sense, i could name more, but another thing (...)

actually I figured The Sixth Sense out in the first 20 minutes. I mean, the guy never changed his clothes!


:joy: :joy: :yipee: :joy: :yipee: :joy: :joy:

[Dilton]

Anyway, has anyone ever noticed that in the movie, when the ship that remains away from Zion to await contact from the Oracle returns, the crew delivers a small object to Neo. I wonder what is that. Would that be a small disk containing information on where Neo should meet her? Or is it something else?

[brother vinny]

Today @ 01:48 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=109163#post109163)
RightIdea:


Ah, yes, I'm sure you're right. A polling size of 25 within a narrow demographic is bound to be far more accurate than, say, the whole movie-going population of America. :thumb:

Yep. The whole movie-going population of America makes pretty crappy choices, by and large. The American movie-going majority, for example, made Jackass: The Movie a hit. Meanwhile, the majority of the posters here at T-Web have displayed keen intelligence, blue mohawks on some nonwithstanding.

[bar Jonah]

Today @ 05:22 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=109400#post109400)
DanielleJoy:

considering how much movies like ''ghost ship'' sell, i'll say that a lot of that group of standard american moviegoers expect to have a movie that just hands them a well developed plot that they can grasp without any work... i understood a majority of the movie the first time i watched it... the second time just tied things together... how many other movies do the same thing? memento, sixth sense, i could name more, but another thing is that these other movies HAVE to explain them within themselves, this movie still has another installment to get everything out, you're SUPPOSED to be left scratching your head.
I understood everything about Memento and Sixth Sense both (two of my all-time favorite movies, btw), the first times I saw them. I am in the majority of the movie-goers, and contrary to what Dilton thinks, I am not "stupid." Amazingly, just because people disagree with Dilton doesn't mean they are automatically "stupid." I have an IQ that is borderline genius (roughly 140), and I was home-school educated by two parents who both have degrees in math and who have both taught at the university level. I've been around the world a couple times, am bilingual, am the poet laureate of a British territory in the Indian Ocean and a former journalist in both print and television... NONE of which makes me better than anyone here, believe me; that has nothing to do with it. Point is simply ... I'm obviously not "stupid."

[johnransom]

Today @ 01:06 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=109700#post109700)
RightIdea:


I understood everything about Memento and Sixth Sense both (two of my all-time favorite movies, btw), the first times I saw them. I am in the majority of the movie-goers, and contrary to what Dilton thinks, I am not "stupid.&quot:...
Same for me. Sixth Sense was obvious from the moment he lay on the bed dying. And while we're on Shyamalan (sp?), Unbreakable was fairly obvious too; and Signs was a well-constructed plot dealing with real religious issues and had a coherent, theologically tenable and interesting resolution - none of the self-important philosophizing of TMR.

The trouble with figuring TMR out was that there were so many logical inconsistencies, it was hard to keep up.

Another peeve: the abrupt "To Be Concluded" ending was a rip. I had expected a complete story in its own right. Even the Star Wars series does that. Lord of the Rings can get away with it because everyone knows it's a three-part story. But unless you had read a review that told you TMR was an incomplete story requiring you to shell out more money to find out how it ends, you had no idea what was coming.

And my IQ has been measured in the same range, BTW.

[Yog^sothoth]

the one thing that always bothered me was the card carrying, wanna be, mensa.

It's like dragon ball z for smart people.

except without the cool power up scenes.

I very much enjoyed "Reloaded." Sure it had it's problems and things that just didn't need to be in there but I didn't think that it detracted from the movie enough for anyone to call it bad. In the end most people just can't get past the dance dance revolution in zion. I mean, what were they thinking?

But in the end, right at the end of that scene I was like, "Oh, that's what they were thinking."

You gotta give a couple of geeks the credit.

[bar Jonah]

Today @ 09:06 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=109974#post109974)
Yog^sothoth:

the one thing that always bothered me was the card carrying, wanna be, mensa.
You're missing the point. I wasn't saying "I'm so smart." I was only saying, "I'm not stupid."

Today @ 09:06 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=109974#post109974)
Yog^sothoth:
It's like dragon ball z for smart people.

except without the cool power up scenes.

I very much enjoyed "Reloaded." Sure it had it's problems and things that just didn't need to be in there but I didn't think that it detracted from the movie enough for anyone to call it bad. In the end most people just can't get past the dance dance revolution in zion. I mean, what were they thinking?

But in the end, right at the end of that scene I was like, "Oh, that's what they were thinking."

You gotta give a couple of geeks the credit.
Well, I didn't give it a D or an F. I gave it a C+. :smile: I wouldn't even say, "Don't go see it."

Mostly, I'm just saying it was a colossal disappointment, because they set the bar so high and ended up making an overall mediocre work.

By the way, I just created a poll about The Twins in this forum. Please check it out. http://bysshe.homestead.com/files/Smiley_RightIdea.gif

[Jaltus]

Oh, oh, can I say what my IQ is?

Oh, oh, pick me!

(no, I am not making fun of you guys, I just like showing off)

[bar Jonah]

Today @ 10:02 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=110027#post110027)
Jaltus:

Oh, oh, can I say what my IQ is?

Oh, oh, pick me!

(no, I am not making fun of you guys, I just like showing off)
Oy... it's not about our IQs... LOL I dont' even consider that something to brag about. I didn't earn it; God made me how he made me. Lots of people with far higher IQs than mine who are utter fools, or totally evil. The only point was simply that we're not "stupid." :smile:

I hadn't even realized we were going to get into grade-school name-calling. Sheesh.

[dawnghost]

RightIdea is dumb and ugly and I'm no friends with him anymoure. but he has blue haiyr, and that's cool cuz blue haiyr is different and stuff. so he's cool but he doesn't like the Matrix so he's dumb. he's dumb and cool like Shwaznegar. and I'm not friends with Schwznegar either. I think Schwaznegar should have blue haiyr. that wuld be niiiice.

[Yog^sothoth]

:rofl:

SUPER DUPER MESAYAN

of course, instead of blond hair ya'll'd'be havin da blue.

BLUE HAIR!

/me goes and does the bevis and butthead thing

duh nu nu duh nu nu DUH DUH DUH!

/me makes the rock symbol

GO WEB!

[DanielleJoy]

i never said you WERE stupid.... i didn't even say that that group of typical moviegoers was stupid.... but you used it as the quote to expressely point out that you weren't...

i wasn't insulting your intelligence at all, the last time i was tested my iq was in the 145-150 range, that was in elementary school though, so i have no idea how it has adjusted since. i was just saying that using the choices of the american public isn't the best indicator of a movie's merits.... like someone else stated- look at how popular Jackass was....

and if you're paying any attention to the movies you're going to go see, like i do, especially a movie as media-hyped as this one, you're going to know that it's part of a series....

[dawnghost]

last time I checked my IQ, it was in the 30 - 40 range.

it was a disgrace for my family, and my mother cried.

since then, I've made an oath and I will never take any IQ tests again.


and I really liked Jackass - The Movie. really.

[Epoetker]

Notes that Brother Vinny's new avatar is an invitation to DUEL!

[johnransom]

OK, I bit the bullet and shelled out another $8 to see Reloaded again. While some of it made more sense, some of it just generated more inconsistencies – including one enormous one.

First, as to my misunderstanding that Zion had been depopulated already: when the captain of the Hammond (I think that’s what Morpheus called it) describes the “slaughter” (not “massacre” as I had earlier recalled), he first says that the sentinels had “broken through” the counter-offensive. So I imagine I had understood that to mean that what had been slaughtered was behind the counter-offensive, i.e., Zion. An easy mistake, and hardly worthy of the description “stupid”. However, this does happen after Neo says that Zion will be destroyed in 24 hours.

And there’s the big inconsistency. Neo never says where he gets this information from. It can’t be from the Architect (although this is strongly implied), as this statement is not made during the course of their conversation, of which we hear the entirety. So he may simply be guessing, and guessing wrong. If not, and this information is supposedly accurate, then there’s a problem. That’s because earlier in the movie, before Lock launches the counter-attack, the woman monitoring the progress of the sentinels’ digging tells Lock that even after taking into account the fact that the sentinels were slowed by a deposit of iron ore, they were still only nine hours away. So Neo is at least 15 hours off, probably more, since a considerable amount of time must have passed after that report: the counter-offensive is launched, digs its own way to the sentinels (which logically it would have to do) and gets destroyed, and then the Hammond picks up its only survivor and finds the Nebuchadnezzar’s crew.

This was, I think, one of the things the script tried to be too clever with. At the point where the Keymaker explains what has to be done to reach the source, the movie starts playing around with its own timeline and does so to its detriment, losing track of itself.

Other things: my thought that the second Matrix had been run several times was correct – the Architect says that his favorite mode of looking at it is to think of it in terms of the choices of the anomalies, so that the second Matrix is in its sixth run. As to the previous “ones”, the Merovingian mentions Neo’s “predecessors” twice, before and after the fight with his henchmen. Neo shows remarkably little interest in these very revealing statements, which should have been a huge hint to him that something was amiss.

One point struck me first when the annoying kid gives Neo the battered spoon from an orphan and then a second time watching that fight again with all its swords and other weapons. Clearly the spoon was intended to remind Neo of the incident in the Oracle’s waiting room from the first movie where Neo watches children manipulating matter (one bends a spoon a la Uri Geller, another juggles some objects without touching them). So I thought: if kids can easily learn to do this, how come the free adults with all their training, and especially Neo with his Matrix superpowers, don’t do this in fights? At one point during the fight, Neo stops a sword with the palm of his hand, which begins to bleed (at which the Merovingian shouts out that he’s still only a human). Rather than suffer injury, why not just turn the steel to Jell-O? Especially after he’s just stopped a hail of bullets. It simply doesn’t make sense.

Some other stuff is nitpicky: such as the shots of Trinity in the Architect’s monitors – they include the shot of her falling out the window before it actually happens. The movie also suggests that the message from the Oracle handed to Neo in Zion was what the human operative was carrying in the envelope Bane gives him in the Matrix before Smith gets him. But of course objects can’t be transferred from the Matrix to the real world.

More on the Merovingian, as he is definitely the bright spot in this movie. I have a degree in French, and can confirm that all of his cursing is genuine. However, one thing he said in French I didn’t quite catch both times I heard it: when greeting Trinity in front of his table, he whispers something that ends in “souffrir” (to suffer). This is probably quite a significant statement (very little spoken in this movie is insignificant) and if anyone has good enough French and has a better ear than I do I would like to know exactly what it was that he said.

Another thing: I’m not sure where DJ got 200 years from for the Matrix cycle. The only statement in the movie as to the history of Zion is from Morpheus’ “prayer”, in which he says they’ve been fighting the machines for 100 years, not 200.

And there are inconsistencies in the Animatrix too, BTW, or at least one: in The Second Renaissance Part II it gives a history of the human-machine war, including how humans destroyed the sky. All very well, except that this is supposedly from the Zion Historical Database. But Morpheus in The Matrix clearly tells Neo that no one knows who destroyed the sky.

I still thought the movie heavy-handed in some areas, in particular with its philosophizing, although on a second viewing one can give this more attention. However, I must concede that the conflicts of determinism and choice on the one hand and reason and purpose on the other are an interesting basis for a story, especially one that deals with machines. I found Smith’s search for purpose possibly the most intriguing part of this (if also the least developed). I found myself comparing him to the independent robot Erasmus in Brian Herbert and Kevin Anderson’s Dune: The Butlerian Jihad and his clumsy and evil attempts to figure out what makes people tick. But this has long been a theme of sci-fi involving robots and AI (can anyone say 42?).

OK, that’s enough. Never thought I’d have so much to say about a movie I didn’t like very much.

[Jaltus]

Neo finds out from the Oracle that Zion will be destroyed in 24 hours.

[johnransom]

Today @ 10:08 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=111494#post111494)
Jaltus:

Neo finds out from the Oracle that Zion will be destroyed in 24 hours.
Well, that doesn't help; his conversation with her is long since past.

[Yog^sothoth]

and morpheus says, "We do know that it was us who scorched the sky."

[DanielleJoy]

i wasn't sure on the timeline, and i didn't remember that line, but i did know that the elder who is talking to neo in the engineering room of zion has no idea that the matrix has been reset, he doesn't know the previous ''one'' who would have started the repopulation of the previous zion. therefore, there had to be at least one generation of people before him, and with the way morpheus talks in the first movie about the original person who could manipulate the matrix ''it was he who set the first of us free''... it sounded like it had been a long time ago.

there have been three versions of the matrix- a paradise, one based on our history but with no choice, and the current program. this program is on it's sixth run i believe.

you know, if you go to a matinee on a saturday afternoon, or to a drive in, you get in for like four dollars....

[DanielleJoy]

oh, and about the thing with the blades- i think that has a lot to do with neo's concentration, and with the fact that he's only been exposed to this entire concept for like a year... you know how much easier it is to learn a concept when a) you're young and impressionable and b) you've barely been exposed to any ideas to the contrary. also, when neo is avoiding bullets, he is ONLY doing that, and it obviously takes some concentration. when he's warding off five people at once, and something is being moved randomly instead of in a straight line, and at different times, it'd be really difficult to manipulate it all. he DID manipulate it enough to be able to stop it with his hand though... that thing looked like it would've sliced right through at least the muscles on that side of his hand if not through all of the bones as well.

[bar Jonah]

Today @ 12:18 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=111657#post111657)
DanielleJoy:

i wasn't sure on the timeline, and i didn't remember that line, but i did know that the elder who is talking to neo in the engineering room of zion has no idea that the matrix has been reset, he doesn't know the previous ''one'' who would have started the repopulation of the previous zion. therefore, there had to be at least one generation of people before him, and with the way morpheus talks in the first movie about the original person who could manipulate the matrix ''it was he who set the first of us free''... it sounded like it had been a long time ago.

there have been three versions of the matrix- a paradise, one based on our history but with no choice, and the current program. this program is on it's sixth run i believe.
Yes, the timeline has always bothered me, even from the first movie. In the context of the first movie, the current Matrix has existed for Neo's entire life. However, the Matrix was designed to portray the very end of the 20th Century. How could that iteration of the Matrix been in existence for one or two centuries? That iteration would then have to have begun in the 19th century. LOL

Even worse, in the context of Reloaded, now we know that Neo has been born in the current iteration of the Matrix twice. Which makes no sense. Morpheus claims "it was he who freed the first of us" ... and people have been living outside of the Matrix and plugging in since then, and they are not aware of the multiple iterations, therefore there have been no new versions of the Matrix since then. So... Neo has lived twice in the current one???

Worst of all, ALL of this should have been glaringly obvious to the highly intelligent characters within the story. And they seem oblivious to it. Why?

Completely illogical.

[DanielleJoy]

neo hasn't lived through two, the previous ''one'' is the person referred to in that line, he was the one who repopulated zion after the previous reset of the matrix, and that was when this cycle of the matrix started over.

the characters don't realize it because they they have nothing pointing it out to them, it's like saying to somebody- ghandi was a really smart guy- do you think that maybe he came from some weird alternate reality that is basically a server for all of us to be uploaded onto? .... so then you get them to accept that by taking them into the other reality, and you're reeling from this, but THEN it turns out that the server has crashed and reset and has been leading you into a revolution against it so that it could guide and use your every movement in order to reset it again?? maybe if you're just sitting in your armchair eating popcorn and contemplating the inconsistencies of life something like this might occur to you, but when you're trying to beat up 200 people and protect everyone you're close to, you don't have much time for meditation

[DanielleJoy]

as for it starting in the 19th century... who's saying it didn't? or, perhaps, it's like the chronicles of narnia where the time scheme is different, who knows, i don't think that aspect of it is really that important :shrug:

[johnransom]

Today @ 01:18 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=111657#post111657)
DanielleJoy:
...he doesn't know the previous ''one'' who would have started the repopulation of the previous zion...
That was another curious thing in the movie - why 23 people, mixed 16/7 men/women? It's an odd number, and generally wouldn't a mix favoring women make more sense? And presumably this number excludes the One, since according to the Architect his "programming" has to go back to the core for the reset. And I assume those who are chosen have their memories adjusted in some way so that the truth does not get passed down.

you know, if you go to a matinee on a saturday afternoon, or to a drive in, you get in for like four dollars....[/QUOTE]
When you've got four young kids you don't go to R-rated matinees. And my wife hates sci-fi. The only reason I was able to see the movie at all is because I'm out of town on business.

[DanielleJoy]

oh, i see, sorry :shy:

erm... the way i heard it, the mix was favoring women... but if it isn't, it'd be a lot easier to do the actual building with more men rather than having 7 healthy guys and 16 pregnant women... but i do think that the mix was in favor of the women

[Dilton]

Yesterday @ 01:46 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=111347#post111347)
johnransom:



And there are inconsistencies in the Animatrix too, BTW, or at least one: in The Second Renaissance Part II it gives a history of the human-machine war, including how humans destroyed the sky. All very well, except that this is supposedly from the Zion Historical Database. But Morpheus in The Matrix clearly tells Neo that no one knows who destroyed the sky.



Actually, you are wrong, if you watch the matrix 1 again, you will notice that Morpheus says to Neo that he does not know who attacked first, but he says that "us" destroyed the sky first.

As for the other inconsitancies you mentioned before, none of them are real inconsistancies, you are just picking up details of the story and facing them against each other in a erratic manner that has nothing to do with what really happened, but you pointed out so many inconsistancies that I am bored to explain them.

[geebob]

In the end most people just can't get past the dance dance revolution in zion. I mean, what were they thinking?

I would've been for it if it wasn't for the fact that it was such a pagan thing bordering on an orgy at what is explicitely supposed to be a religious ceremony.



Regarding the recent discussion on the intelligence of movie goers, I think that not only intelligent people will enjoy the matrix but also many stupid people will enjoy the matrix thoroughly.

[DanielleJoy]

Today @ 02:09 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=112846#post112846)
geebob:
Regarding the recent discussion on the intelligence of movie goers, I think that not only intelligent people will enjoy the matrix but also many stupid people will enjoy the matrix thoroughly.

lol... i got into an argument with someone on the whole ''matrix within a matrix'' thing... it was obvious he hadn't understood one word of the thing with the architect, and even though i was trying to explain it to him and i showed him my posts on here, he couldn't fathom that the machines had guided neo's entire journey... no matter how simply i put it.

[Dilton]

I was visiting another forum, and a user was asking about the matrix 1. He was wondering what happened after Neo took the red pill... He didn´t know why Neo appeared sleeping inside a red vat in the future, that looked just like the red pill (huh????), and he just couldn´t understand that that was the "real" world, and that 1999 was just a simulation. He was thinking that Neo had fallen asleep for a long time.

talk about stupid viewers.

[johnransom]

05-29-2003 @ 02:43 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=111813#post111813)
DanielleJoy:

as for it starting in the 19th century... who's saying it didn't? or, perhaps, it's like the chronicles of narnia where the time scheme is different, who knows, i don't think that aspect of it is really that important :shrug:
There are some problems with this though, most notably the huge increase in human population during the twentieth century. Unless the machines have a huge oversupply of power at the end of each running of the Matrix...(and frankly the whole idea of human bodies producing adequate power is dumb anyway)

[johnransom]

05-29-2003 @ 10:29 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=112333#post112333)
Dilton:
Actually, you are wrong, if you watch the matrix 1 again, you will notice that Morpheus says to Neo that he does not know who attacked first, but he says that "us" destroyed the sky first.
True, my recollection was faulty. But this too doesn't help, because the database still shows humans attacking 01 first. Frankly, after watching both parts of the segment, I felt like the good guys won.

As for the other inconsitancies you mentioned before, none of them are real inconsistancies, you are just picking up details of the story and facing them against each other in a erratic manner that has nothing to do with what really happened, but you pointed out so many inconsistancies that I am bored to explain them.
Drivel. The 24/9 hours thing is a clear screw-up.

[johnransom]

Yesterday @ 02:45 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=112980#post112980)
DanielleJoy:



lol... i got into an argument with someone on the whole ''matrix within a matrix'' thing... it was obvious he hadn't understood one word of the thing with the architect, and even though i was trying to explain it to him and i showed him my posts on here, he couldn't fathom that the machines had guided neo's entire journey... no matter how simply i put it.
Yeah - this was one thing I picked up much better the second time, because various characters have throw-away lines that only make complete sense if this is true, and knowing it ahead of time helps you to spot this: such as Smith's comment very early on that "It's all happening exactly as before" to which his copy replies "Well, not exactly". The first time I figured he meant "before" as in his first set-to with Neo; the second I realized that he probably really meant as with the previous Ones. And it puts a huge question mark over the Oracle's true allegiances.

[DanielleJoy]

Today @ 01:26 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=113426#post113426)
johnransom:

Drivel. The 24/9 hours thing is a clear screw-up.

who says the humans couldn't have been wrong on THEIR estimate? i think this is one of those things we'll just have to wait until november to find out, i wasn't sure on how much time was left either... hehe, gives me an excuse to see the movie again *plots a masterminded scheme to come up with five bucks*

[johnransom]

05-29-2003 @ 10:08 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=111494#post111494)
Jaltus:

Neo finds out from the Oracle that Zion will be destroyed in 24 hours.
Apparently, this isn't true. When asked who told him this Neo says "It doesn't matter. I believed him." I got this from a website that has a near-complete transcript. If anyone wants to check it out, it can be found here (http://www.zionmainframe.net/main/reloaded/archive/transcript.txt).

This also shows I got the gender mix wrong on the new Zion: it is 16 women and 7 men. And when you think about it, the One is probably an 8th man, making a perfect 2:1 ratio.

[johnransom]

Today @ 01:07 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=113447#post113447)
DanielleJoy:
who says the humans couldn't have been wrong on THEIR estimate? i think this is one of those things we'll just have to wait until november to find out, i wasn't sure on how much time was left either... hehe, gives me an excuse to see the movie again *plots a masterminded scheme to come up with five bucks*
Well, that would make it a pretty lousy defense system.

[johnransom]

This is the first time I've ever heard of easter eggs in a website, but if you go to this thread (http://www.rottentomatoes.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=239020) at rottentomatoes.com you'll find some really cool stuff to do at the Matrix website, especially the virtual plastic model of the Nebuchadnezzar.

Whatever you think of the film, you have to give the Wachowskis credit for an overall concept and experience.

[mrsnacks]

How do you all compare "The Matrix Reloaded "with the christian" The Left Behind "movie ???

I saw the Matrix movie a week ago and thought it was excellent and judging by al the comments here on this thread and others that finally Hollywierd comes out with a movie for the thinking crowd. At least the movie raises a lot of philosophical questions .

I haven't seen the Left Behind movie simply because I not only hold to a different eschatological view but that christian movies seem to be very amateurish and silly. I wonder why .

It would seem that the Left Behind on the surface could be a great movie. Much opportunity for fantastic special effects (Jesus in the clouds, christian being zapped in the rapture, The feast in Heaven, the return of Christ and etc. It would be much more exciting then seeing that than let's say a movie expressing the orthodox preterist view.

So will there be a" Left Behind Reloaded"coming out ?????????????????

:shocked:

[geebob]

How do you all compare "The Matrix Reloaded "with the christian" The Left Behind "movie ???

I wouldn't compare them. Matrix is in a league of its own and left behind, whether or not it's a good story (I thought it was ok but I've heard several people say it was bad-I myself am not particularly eager to see it again). I would not say that left behind was particularly innovative and it seems rather conventional and matrix is very original in many ways and I'd say it borders on being an art film.

As for some details such as acting, I am generally not a good judge, but I'd say matrix was leagues above left behind.


So will there be a" Left Behind Reloaded"coming out ?????????????????

I've seen it in video rental places.

[DanielleJoy]

Yesterday @ 03:42 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=113781#post113781)
johnransom:

This is the first time I've ever heard of easter eggs in a website, but if you go to this thread (http://www.rottentomatoes.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=239020) at rottentomatoes.com you'll find some really cool stuff to do at the Matrix website, especially the virtual plastic model of the Nebuchadnezzar.

Whatever you think of the film, you have to give the Wachowskis credit for an overall concept and experience.

you can also get to a lot of them from the dvd of the first movie, i've seen a lot of these

[DanielleJoy]

Yesterday @ 03:35 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=113777#post113777)
johnransom:


Well, that would make it a pretty lousy defense system.

lol, yes, i suppose it would... but we'll see; november isn't all that far from now (thank goodness)

[Jacob]

I think it was a good enough movie, especially for $5 it being the second in a trilogy.

Could have done without the very explicit sex scene.

I read through about 4 or 5 pages of this thread before seeing the movie. Thanks, it helped. I'm still trying to sort out Zion. In some scenes in Zion I can see the "plugs" in the neck, in other scenes they're not visible. Just after the sex scene where the plugs are visible, Neo walks out his door unto the balcony, and the plugs are no longer visible. What gives?

Also, is there a Mr. Smith that is driving the others, or are all replica's fully "Mr. Smith"? The one that infests the guy & then transfers back to reality left me wondering.

I'd agree with much of the view suggesting Gnosticism. Also, while everyone talks in terms of determinism, I don't think it will end up that way. I'm guessing that Neo really is "the one", and that the prophecy will be fullfilled in a secondary way... Sort of like Christ's two comings to earth, which were not clearly distinguished in the OT.

In the end, I think the message of the trilogy will be that people have to choose to make tough choices and not buy into the reality handed to them by the world around them. What is most important is that you make your own choices. Truth & reality are what you make it. There is no universal meaning to life, but you will only find meaning by doin' your own thing. Very existential & postmodern & gnostic all at the same confused time...

Anyone else looking forward to T3?

Jacob

[Epoetker]

"Desire is irrelevant! I am a machine!"

Why do all of the themes of these movies seem to be dovetailing all of a sudden...

[Dilton]

T3, I thought it would be a great movie, but yesterday I watched a new trailer and there´s a stereotyped scene with a north-american flag on top of a car (horrible), the producers could make a good sequel without that stinking appeal.

And also, the trailer was playing a score music on the background that was taken straight from a The Two Towers trailer. Horrible and stinking as well.

If it weren´t all of the above, I would say it would be a good matrix competitor, but now I don´t know about that, because it seemed more like a schwarzenegger anti-colombian movie.

[Dilton]

Has anyone noticed something very incredible?

I was thinking about The Matrix (the first movie), and at the very beginning of the movie, in the scene where Anderson (Neo) wakes up in front of his computer monitor and all that: after he gets confused about the "wake up Neo" message on the monitor, he goes answer the door, and he delivers the hacker cd´s to his customer, and the customer guy says "you´re my own personal Jesus Christ" or something like that. :idea:

[johnransom]

Today @ 08:49 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=115553#post115553)
Dilton:

Has anyone noticed something very incredible?

I was thinking about The Matrix (the first movie), and at the very beginning of the movie, in the scene where Anderson (Neo) wakes up in front of his computer monitor and all that: after he gets confused about the "wake up Neo" message on the monitor, he goes answer the door, and he delivers the hacker cd´s to his customer, and the customer guy says "you´re my own personal Jesus Christ" or something like that. :idea:
The guy's name is Choi (and I'm sure that must mean something given that names almost always have biblical-style importance in the movie) and he says even more than that: "Hallelujah. You're my savior, man. My own personal Jesus Christ."

[graceinme]

I just watched the movie. I thought the movie was an A. I didn't mind that I didn't understand it completely. I really enjoyed being able to read all the explanations everyone has come up with here. I think that I would like to see it again to have a better theological understanding of it now. I agree with DJ about it being refreshing to watch a movie that makes you think a little. It makes sense as to why people on Tweb found it a better movie than the general public. Tweb is a place where people who want a higher understanding of theologies come together for enlightenment. We are a small percentage, most people in this world need someone else to tell them what to think and feel. One might say that Tweb is the 1 percent of the population that refuses to accept the Matrix(the anomaly).:teeth:

[graceinme]

Oh, and I wanted to thank Dj for explaining it so well. So thanks DJ! Have 5 pearls for being Beautiful, and smart.:thumb:

[DanielleJoy]

:joy: thank you!! totally cheered me up! :bunny: