Amill/Preterist Kingdom of God on Earth

[Just The Facts]

Hi

The Amill/preterist position says that we are in the Kingdom. That the Church is the Kingdom on Earth.

So lets take a look back at the History of their kingdom on earth and Compare it to what we know from Scripture about what happens when Jesus reigns and the Kingdom comes.

Isaiah 2:2: And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.3: And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. 4: And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

Above we are told the Nations will come to the kingdom of God to learn the Ways of the God of Peace.

Rev 21:24: And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.

Rev 22:2: In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

Ok so we are told the Nations will come unto Holy Jerusalem out of Heaven and destroy all their weapons and learn war no more and it shall be the healing of the Nations. So can we say Christianity has fulfilled this……………………… has Christianity destroyed its weapons and learned war no more have we been the healing of the Nations or a Plague unto the world..

Pre 314 Ad Christians did not serve in Armies or go to War.

We have words of Many Christina to back this fundamental truth.

Justin Martyr Dialoge with Trypho Chap. CX is just one such example

High, shall venture to do unlawful deeds on the earth against us the Christians, who, having learned the true worship of God from the law, and the word which went forth from Jerusalem by means of the apostles of Jesus, have fled for safety to the God of Jacob and God of Israel; and we who were filled with war, and mutual slaughter, and every wickedness, have each through the whole earth changed our warlike weapons,--our swords into ploughshares, and our spears into implements of tillage,--and we cultivate piety, righteousness, philanthropy, faith, and hope, which we have from the Father Himself through Him who was crucified;


……………………. I have not included every century or every Christian war………….because well………….it would have taken tooooo many posts

314 AD Cibalae
323 AD Adrianople
323 AD Hellespont (Naval)
324 AD Chrysopolis
344 AD Singara Romans
351 AD Mursa Romans
353 AD Mons Seleucus Romans
356 AD Reims Alemannia
357 AD Argentorate
359 AD Amida
363 AD Ctesiphon
367 AD Solicinium
377 AD Willows
378 AD Argentaria
378 AD Adrianople
387 AD Siscia
394 AD River Frigidus

402 AD Asta
402 AD Pollentia
403 AD Verona
410 AD Sack of Rome
425 AD Italy
432 AD Ravenna
436 AD Narbonne
447 AD Utus Romans
451 AD Campi Catalaunii
455 AD Sack of Rome
468 AD Carthage
472 AD Rome
476 AD 'Fall of Rome'

500 Ouche between Clovis and Gundobad.
500 Avignon between Clovis and Gundobad.
502 Theodosiopolis (Erzurum) between Kavadh and Anastasius.
503 Amida (Diyarbakir) between Kavadh and Anastasius.
507 Vouille between Clovis and Alaric II.
516 or 518 Badon Hill between Artorius and the Saxons.
524 Vererance between Gundimar and the Franks.
528 between al-Harith ibn Jabalah and the Lakhmids.
530 Dara between Belisarius and the Persians.
531 Callinicum between Belisarius and the Persians.
533 Carthage between Belisarius and Gelimar.
536 Naples between Belisarius and the Goths.
536 Rome between Belisarius and the Goths.
539 Ravenna between Belisarius and Vitiges.
589 Nisibis (Nusaybin) between Bahram Chobin and the Romans.
589 Araxes (Aras) River between Bahram Chobin and the Romans.

Crusades 1096 - 1254

We will Jump to the 1600
English-French Wars 1194 - 1337

English Scottish Wars 1314
Hundred Years War 1337 - 1453
Venetian-Turkish Wars 1416 - 1573
Wars of the Roses 1455 - 1487
Spanish-Moslem Wars 1481 - 1492
Spanish Conquest of Mexico 1519 - 1521
Mogul-Afghan War 1526
Spanish Conquest of Peru 1531 - 1533
English Spanish Wars 1588

1618-1648 Thirty Years War
1632 French Civil War
1640 Wars of Louis XIV
1642-1649 English Civil Wars
1643-1645 Danish – Swedish War
1644 Candian War*
1648-52 Wars of the Fronde (French Civil war)
1651-1660 Polish – Swedish War
1651-1667 Polish – Cossack War
1652-1656 Anglo – Dutch War
1657-1659 Danish – Swedish War
1665 War of Devolution*
1677-1687 Ottoman Wars
1689-1700 Russo – Turkish War
1690 War of the Grand Alliance*
1690 War of the British Succession

1700 Great Northern War (Russia, Poland and Denmark against Sweden
Spanish Succession, War of the 1701 - 1714
French and Indian War 1754 - 1763
Seven Years' War 1756 - 1763
American Revolution 1775 - 1783
French Revolutionary Wars 1792 – 1802

Napoleonic Wars 1803 - 1814
Indian Wars in United States 1811 - 1887
War of 1812 1812 - 1815
Peruvian War of Independence 1824
Texan War of Independence 1836
Afghan-British War, First 1839 - 1842
Mexican War 1846 - 1847
American Civil War 1861 - 1865
Seven Weeks' War 1866
Franco-Prussian War 1870 - 1871
Afghan-British War, Second 1878 - 1880
Zulu-British War 1879
Sudan, War for the 1881 - 1899
Spanish-American War 1898
Boer War, Second 1899 – 1902

Russo-Japanese War 1904 - 1905
World War I 1914 - 1918
Turkish War of Independence 1919 - 1923
Afghan-British War, Third 1919
World War II 1939 - 1945
French Indochina War 1946 - 1954
Arab-Israeli War 1948 - 1949
Korean War 1950 - 1953
Hungarian Uprising 1956
Vietnam War 1965 - 1975
Persian Gulf War 1991


Weapons production by Nations of world production in % of total

1.USA = 46% of world Weapon production in 2002
2.Britian= 18% of world Weapon production in 2002
3.Russia = 18% of world Weapon production in 2002
4.France = 5% of world Weapon production in 2002
5. China = 3% of world Weapon production in 2002

Remaining Countries 10 % of world Weapon production in 2002

So can we say the Amill/Preterist concept of the Kingdom of God on Earth is in line with scripture.

Can we say these churches that claim the Title of Queen /Wife of the King of Kings have fulfilled the words of God…………………..

Or can we say this is a lie perpetrated on mankind by accumulated teachers that have no true knowledge of the God Of Peace.

6: And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.

4: And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.5: For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.6: Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.7: How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow.8: Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.

[Xavier]

Hi

Greetings Just the Facts... Welcome to TWeb... :smile:

The Amill/preterist position says that we are in the Kingdom. That the Church is the Kingdom on Earth.

Excellent, I'm glad that there are people who pick up on this. However, I think it would be a fallacy to say that preterists think of the Kingdom as only "Earthly". Most preterist (and amills) that I am aware have a more nuansed view of Kingdom than a simple Earthly political structure.

So lets take a look back at the History of their kingdom on earth and Compare it to what we know from Scripture about what happens when Jesus reigns and the Kingdom comes.

Interesting excercise... :smile:

Isaiah 2:2: And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.3: And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. 4: And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

Above we are told the Nations will come to the kingdom of God to learn the Ways of the God of Peace.

Well, I think that many people have turned to Christianity (or namely, the Church) as a source of peace and peaceful actions. Yes, we are still a fallen people and many so-called "Christian Wars" have been fought, but rarely do we this as a result of the teaching of Christianity. They are often fought over Earthly political reasons.

Rev 21:24: And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.

Seem accurate on the face...

Rev 22:2: In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

I would suggest that the imagry here is referencing something from past Scripture. I don't have my commentaries in front of me at the moment for further explication, but the "twelve fruits" would lead me suspect more than face value here.

Ok so we are told the Nations will come unto Holy Jerusalem out of Heaven and destroy all their weapons and learn war no more and it shall be the healing of the Nations.

I am sorry, but there seems to be some really bad exegesis going on here. Some of these passages refer to God's action on the people, not the people's actions on others.

So can we say Christianity has fulfilled this……………………… has Christianity destroyed its weapons and learned war no more have we been the healing of the Nations or a Plague unto the world..

The destroying of weapons is bad exegesis. Notice a couple of verses back refering to the judgement of God and this as a consequence thereof. It would seem to me that it rules out your attempted reading (from within the preterist stance).

We have been the healing of the nations and plague throughout the world. We have been able to spread the gospel of the Christ throughout the world. We have brought the world peace by offering them atonement for their sins. It's not some political statement refering to Kings, Presidents, Ministers, etc., but rather a much more spiritual victory (like the one achieved by Christ at the outset of the Kingdom).

Pre 314 Ad Christians did not serve in Armies or go to War.

I would argue this is exactly because they knew the Kingdom as being in place...

We have words of Many Christina to back this fundamental truth.

Justin Martyr Dialoge with Trypho Chap. CX is just one such example

High, shall venture to do unlawful deeds on the earth against us the Christians, who, having learned the true worship of God from the law, and the word which went forth from Jerusalem by means of the apostles of Jesus, have fled for safety to the God of Jacob and God of Israel; and we who were filled with war, and mutual slaughter, and every wickedness, have each through the whole earth changed our warlike weapons,--our swords into ploughshares, and our spears into implements of tillage,--and we cultivate piety, righteousness, philanthropy, faith, and hope, which we have from the Father Himself through Him who was crucified;

Analysis of why Justin (or any of the earlier Christians) believed this would be remarkablely insightful to the outcome of this discussion.

*snip*

So can we say the Amill/Preterist concept of the Kingdom of God on Earth is in line with scripture.

Can we say these churches that claim the Title of Queen /Wife of the King of Kings have fulfilled the words of God…………………..

Or can we say this is a lie perpetrated on mankind by accumulated teachers that have no true knowledge of the God Of Peace.

I don't think that you have explicated your case sufficently to judge either way. As a committed preterist for other reasons, I would hold that "Yes, many of these are fulfilled".

I think that you would do good to offer some more exegesis on your scripture early on in this post.

Yours,
Xavier

[spiritmech]

From Psalm 110

1. The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
2. The Lord shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies.

Both amillenialists and postmillenialists believe that Christ is sitting on the throne right now, and is in the process of putting His enemies under His feet. While there is a battle, it is primarily a spiritual one, and may or may not bring more physical peace on this earth.

His Kingdom will come in fulness at His 2nd coming, when He will be present with us and His enemies will be destroyed. Neither the premill nor the amill position has an entirely peaceful millenium.

SM

[Solly]

Hi

The Amill/preterist position says that we are in the Kingdom. That the Church is the Kingdom on Earth.


What is your source for this comment? The church is not the kingdom of God on earth, it is merely an agent of the kingdom, although God is not restricted to the Church in his actions. The kingdom is yet to come in its fullnes.

[Xavier]

The kingdom is yet to come in its fullnes.

What do you mean by "fullness"? Could you elaborate?

[Solly]

That it will cover the earth, involve all alive, will show clearly the meeting of heaven and earth; it will not be hidden as the leaven in the dough, it will not be small as the mustard seed, but will be fully grown, etc.

[spiritmech]

That it will cover the earth, involve all alive, will show clearly the meeting of heaven and earth; it will not be hidden as the leaven in the dough, it will not be small as the mustard seed, but will be fully grown, etc.

:yes:

Don't forget the bodily resurrection, too! We will be in the presence of all our brothers and sisters and in the full presence of God himself! (Okay, I know you didn't forget, I just wanted to say it.)

EDIT: Also, all of Christ's enemies will be vanquished and fully put under his feet. The kingdom has begun, but it has not yet come into its fulness.

SM

[Xavier]

I'm not sure that Solly would place the events at the same time... :smile:

I suppose the further follow question for Solly would be:
What do you think the State of the Kingdom is today?

[Solly]

I'm not sure that Solly would place the events at the same time... :smile:

I suppose the further follow question for Solly would be:
What do you think the State of the Kingdom is today?

yes, the resurrection, and all that stuff; i was speaking thematically, rather than programmatically.
And i would tend to go with SM; i am not preterist, just an old fashioned Vossian amiller.

I can't tell you what the state of the Kingdom is today Xav, that's God's job, he's the king. Is the world transformed, and bringing forth justice, righteousness, mercy and peace? There are patches of it, but it doesn't last; even churches fall apart. There are movements abroad, but there are counter movments too. God doesn't tend to give State of the Kingdom addresses. All I know is, that following Norman Kraus' explanation, the church is the God movement, and our job is to be their when God is doing kingdom work. Sadly, we have fallen behind: poverty, environment, social issues generally. Marxism - which may well be seen as part of God's action in the world - got ahead of us in the 19th century, and we have yet to catch up. I'm no liberal, building Jerusalem here and now, but i do think the church can do a lot.
i like that phrase: Think globally, act locally.
I'm not clock watching for the end, I know that. It's not friday afternoon yet!!

[Just The Facts]

Hi xavier

Thank you for taking the time to read the post and respond.

You stated
Well, I think that many people have turned to Christianity (or namely, the Church) as a source of peace and peaceful actions. Yes, we are still a fallen people and many so-called "Christian Wars" have been fought, but rarely do we this as a result of the teaching of Christianity. They are often fought over Earthly political reasons.
End Quote

Ahhhh well that is not true.................the Crusades...........the 30 year war..................all the wars of the Fourth century were over Doctrine.

The Spanish trying to take England and put all those Protestant heretics to the flame.


You stated
I am sorry, but there seems to be some really bad exegesis going on here. Some of these passages refer to God's action on the people, not the people's actions on others.
End Quote

No what Isaiah 2:2-4 refers to is the 1,000 years of Peace on Earth.

It is very plainly stated........ weapons are destroyed and Nations learn war No more.

So which Nations since this was written or since Jesus ascension learn war no more. It really is a very simple question and statement ...............Which Nation on Earth has no army.


You stated
Analysis of why Justin (or any of the earlier Christians) believed this would be remarkablely insightful to the outcome of this discussion.
End Quote

I am not sure what you are saying ......but if you are going to try and suggest that Justin was amill please read the following

Justin Martyr: Second Apology
[Dialogue with Trypho]
Chap. LXXX
Moreover, I pointed out to you that some who are called Christians, but are godless, impious heretics, teach doctrines that are in every way blasphemous, atheistical, and foolish. But that you may know that I do not say this before you alone, I shall draw up a statement, so far as I can, of all the arguments which have passed between us; in which I shall record myself as admitting the very same things which I admit to you.(3) For I choose to follow not men or men's doctrines, but God and the doctrines[delivered] by Him. For if you have fallen in with some who are called Christians, but who do not admit this[truth],(4) and venture to blaspheme the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob; who say there is no resurrection of the dead, and that their souls, when they die, are taken to heaven; do not imagine that they are Christians, even as one, if he would rightly consider it, would not admit that the Sadducees, or similar sects of Genistæ, Meristae,(5)Gelilaeans, Hellenists,(6) Pharisees, Baptists, are Jews(do not hear me impatiently when I tell you what I think), but are[only] called Jews and children of Abraham, worshipping God with the lips, as God Himself declared, but the heart was far from Him. But I and others, who are right-minded Christians on all points, are assured that there will be a resurrection of the dead, and a thousand years(7) in Jerusalem, which will then be built, adorned, and enlarged,[as] the prophets Ezekiel and Isaiah and others declare.

Yes Justin leaves little doubt that Amill is a big fat lie and those who espouse it are teaching Doctrine's of Demons, and are Heretics in fact he says they are no better than Atheists.



You stated
Well, I think that many people have turned to Christianity (or namely, the Church) as a source of peace and peaceful actions. Yes, we are still a fallen people and many so-called "Christian Wars" have been fought, but rarely do we this as a result of the teaching of Christianity. They are often fought over Earthly political reasons.
End Quote


Please..........I will put it in bold so you do not miss it. It says

4: And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

It is not about inner peace it is about putting an end to war........After all we Follow

Rom:15:33: Now the God of peace be with you all. Amen.

Rom:16:20: And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.

Phil:4:9: Those things, which ye have both learned, and received, and heard, and seen in me, do: and the God of peace shall be with you.

1Thes:5:23: And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Heb:13:20: Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,

We are not supposed to follow

Dan:11:38: But in his estate shall he honour the God of forces:

The God of Forces is Baal.

Curiously the only False God Mentioned in Rev…………..well not so curious at all really.

What you need to do is study WHO the Angel in the Pit is....you know the king of the Pit................He is the Destroyer ...........So How did he get that Title........................and Who is he. Perhaps that will help you see the Truth of this.

[Just The Facts]

Hi Solly


My source is the dozens of Amill /preterists that tell me there is no literal Kingdom and that it is a spiritual thing inside you.

[spiritmech]

If you're arguing for a premillenial POV, your thesis is defeated at the very start because of the unleashing of Satan at the end of the 1,000 years when all nations go up against the people of God. So even during the pre-millenium nations have NOT put down their weapons. They will be ruled by Christ with an iron fist.

Not until after the millenium (pre/post/a) will the nations finally find peace on earth.
SM

[Solly]

OK JtF, that doesn't really help much though. All the amill books I read: Vos, Ridderbos, Kiddlebarger, Frazier, Goldsworthy, don't say that. By 'amill/preterist' do I take it you mean that position which-must-not-be-named without a thread being moved to unorthodox theology? if so, i am not in that debate. there is very much a real kingdom, and so we pray, Your kingdom come, your will be done on earth as it is in heaven, ie in our domain as in yours.


What you need to do is...

What I need to do when someone starts saying that, after posting a tranche of proof texts, is to reach for my 12-bore...

[dizzle]

By 'amill/preterist' do I take it you mean that position which-must-not-be-named without a thread being moved to unorthodox theology?

No..... many orthodox preterists are amill. Theonomy here on the site is one.

[Solly]

No..... many orthodox preterists are amill. Theonomy here on the site is one.

Yes, I know they are, but the interpretation JtF gives would indicate another sort of preterist; unless he's blowing air, of course.

[dizzle]

Okay I am guilty of only reading your post

[Just The Facts]

Hi Solly


Yes I mean Full Preterists or I think Dee Dee Called them Hyper.

For Sure Amill believe there is no literal Kingdom on Earth………………..ever

They believe Judgement day is the only remaining thing unfulfilled. I am not sure you can say "amil" and refer to just one belief because even within this doctrine there are many schools of thought

As far as the statement "what you need to do" sorry for suggesting that xavier study who the Destroyer is.

He suggested I needed to study other Things I said you need to study the destroyer I do not see why that sets off alarms in your mind.

Now If I said you need to read my book to understand (not that I have a book)..........then I could see your point.

[Solly]

Hi Solly


Yes I mean Full Preterists or I think Dee Dee Called them Hyper.

For Sure Amill believe there is no literal Kingdom on Earth………………..ever

OK, we got that sorted out.
However, amiller's do not believe there will never be a kingdom on earth EVER. I am an amiller for a start, and I do. Our differences are, first, what you mean be a literal kingdom, and second, when that kingdom will come. I, along with Xav, suspect a premill viewpoint behind your posts, but we would not accept that the premill idea of a literal kingdom on earth is what the Bible is speaking about., nor its timescale.

They believe Judgement day is the only remaining thing unfulfilled. I am not sure you can say "amil" and refer to just one belief because even within this doctrine there are many schools of thought.

Amill and preterist are not synonymous. Amill finds its home in Dutch Reformed theology in recent times, as well as in Eastern orthodox, and some early catholic thought. Preterism of the kind you have mentioned is a different kettle of fish.

As far as the statement "what you need to do" sorry for suggesting that xavier study who the Destroyer is.

He suggested I needed to study other Things I said you need to study the destroyer I do not see why that sets off alarms in your mind.

Now If I said you need to read my book to understand (not that I have a book)..........then I could see your point.

It was the conjunction with a list of proof texts; we often get people on here who have a list of proof texts, a hot line to God, and a slightly strange look in the eye who tell us we just have to study this and that to get the real view on things; hopefully you are not one of them.

You do need to study more on what preterism is, and what amill is, the differnces within their respective camps, and the differences between them, as many preterists are post millers, within orthodox preterism, and something approaching liberalism amongst hypers, cf Albert Schweizer's work on eschatology.

[Just The Facts]

Hi Solly


Well I would not say I think You ONLY have to study the Destroyer I think and believe that NO VERSE can be left Behind………………If you are willing to ignore verses then you can make the Bible say what ever you want.

I am a Historical premill.....................so yes It is with a pre mill view I state these things.

Perhaps I can demonstrate what I mean by no literal kingdom.

Has this been fulfilled.

Ez 38:10: Thus saith the Lord GOD; It shall also come to pass, that at the same time shall things come into thy mind, and thou shalt think an evil thought: 11: And thou shalt say, I will go up to the land of unwalled villages; I will go to them that are at rest, that dwell safely, all of them dwelling without walls, and having neither bars nor gates, 12: To take a spoil, and to take a prey; to turn thine hand upon the desolate places that are now inhabited, and upon the people that are gathered out of the nations, which have gotten cattle and goods, that dwell in the midst of the land.

Now I DO NOT believe as the futurists that Ezekiel 37: is Modern Israel I believe it to be the First Resurrection

37:12: Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel. 13: And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,

So that means that after the resurrection in Ez 37: and the 1,000 years of the Kingdom of God on Earth we get gog and Magog.

So has Ezekiel 38 been fulfilled……………. In my understanding this is referring to the Kingdom of God on Earth in the following verses

8: After many days thou shalt be visited: in the latter years thou shalt come into the land that is brought back from the sword, and is gathered out of many people, against the mountains of Israel, which have been always waste: but it is brought forth out of the nations, and they shall dwell safely all of them.

The Fact that verse 11 says “Them that are at Rest” I think leaves no doubt this is the Kingdom of God on Earth

[Xavier]

Hi xavier

Thank you for taking the time to read the post and respond.

No problem... Glad to discuss these issues.

Well, I think that many people have turned to Christianity (or namely, the Church) as a source of peace and peaceful actions. Yes, we are still a fallen people and many so-called "Christian Wars" have been fought, but rarely do we this as a result of the teaching of Christianity. They are often fought over Earthly political reasons.

Ahhhh well that is not true.................the Crusades...........the 30 year war..................all the wars of the Fourth century were over Doctrine.

The Spanish trying to take England and put all those Protestant heretics to the flame.

As a point of History, I would disagree with all of your push-backs...

The Crusades were a political move to extend the power of European and the European Chruch.

The 30 Years War falls into the same category. Several parties wished control over various political positions.

The Inquisition was ultimately a war to maintain the power of the Catholic Church. The "Heretics" were attempting to undermine the authority of the church.


I am sorry, but there seems to be some really bad exegesis going on here. Some of these passages refer to God's action on the people, not the people's actions on others.


No what Isaiah 2:2-4 refers to is the 1,000 years of Peace on Earth.

It is very plainly stated........ weapons are destroyed and Nations learn war No more.

Well, I disagree with your interpretation of Isaiah 2:2-4. The emphasis would be on the Lord's acts in the passage, and not the acts of other as you would seem to suggest. Further, most commentators note that the "end days" are the day of the Messiah, not a futurist period of judgement.

So which Nations since this was written or since Jesus ascension learn war no more. It really is a very simple question and statement ...............Which Nation on Earth has no army.

Like I have said previously... I think a further exegesis would be advisable. Why do you think that the passage refers to the Millenium? Especially given its context at the Beginning of Isaiah.


Analysis of why Justin (or any of the earlier Christians) believed this would be remarkablely insightful to the outcome of this discussion.

I am not sure what you are saying ......but if you are going to try and suggest that Justin was amill please read the following

I'm not going to suggest that Justin was amill. I don't know. However, my comment was aimed at why Justin and the Early Christians believed the way that they did. Why did they believe in "ultivate piety, righteousness, philanthropy, faith, and hope, which we have from the Father Himself through Him who was crucified"?

Justin Martyr: Second Apology
[Dialogue with Trypho]
Chap. LXXX
Moreover, I pointed out to you that some who are called Christians, but are godless, impious heretics, teach doctrines that are in every way blasphemous, atheistical, and foolish. [...]But I and others, who are right-minded Christians on all points, are assured that there will be a resurrection of the dead, and a thousand years(7) in Jerusalem, which will then be built, adorned, and enlarged,[as] the prophets Ezekiel and Isaiah and others declare.

I will respectfully disagree with Justin on this point. I agree that the resurrection is future, but the rebuilding of the Temple is not an eschatological event.

Yes Justin leaves little doubt that Amill is a big fat lie and those who espouse it are teaching Doctrine's of Demons, and are Heretics in fact he says they are no better than Atheists.

Unfortuately, Justin is just a man with his view of scripture. We must use Scripture to establish our positions. Otherwise, we'd have a tapestry of beliefs that interweave, but never actual give us a picture.

Please..........I will put it in bold so you do not miss it. It says

4: And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

It is not about inner peace it is about putting an end to war...


But WHY??? I've laid forth WHY I do not think that the passage refers to what your interpretation requires.

.....After all we Follow

Rom:15:33: Now the God of peace be with you all. Amen.

Rom:16:20: And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.

Phil:4:9: Those things, which ye have both learned, and received, and heard, and seen in me, do: and the God of peace shall be with you.

1Thes:5:23: And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Heb:13:20: Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,

I'm sorry... Does that not embrace my point about the passage refering to the work of the Lord?

We are not supposed to follow

Dan:11:38: But in his estate shall he honour the God of forces:

The God of Forces is Baal.

Curiously the only False God Mentioned in Rev…………..well not so curious at all really.

What you need to do is study WHO the Angel in the Pit is....you know the king of the Pit................He is the Destroyer ...........So How did he get that Title........................and Who is he. Perhaps that will help you see the Truth of this.

I'm not sure how this affects the discussion at the moment... :smile:

Yours,
Xavier

[Just The Facts]

Hi Xavier

I am not sure why you do not understand this perhaps I am just not explaining it well.......i know my grammar sucks .....so let me try again.

You said
Well, I disagree with your interpretation of Isaiah 2:2-4. The emphasis would be on the Lord's acts in the passage, and not the acts of other as you would seem to suggest. Further, most commentators note that the "end days" are the day of the Messiah, not a futurist period of judgement.
End Quote


That is Just not true .........

1.The Nations come to learn his ways.
2. He tells them they have been wrong all this time............He rebukes many.
3. and THEY shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks:...........It is the Nations that do the destroying of their Weapons as they Learn the Ways of the Prince of Peace and Abandon the God of Forces.
4. And it is the Nations that learn war no more............that means all the military tradition done away with because it is evil in the eyes of the Lord.

Do you see it is the Nations that do these things.

You said
The Crusades were a political move to extend the power of European and the European Chruch.

The Inquisition was ultimately a war to maintain the power of the Catholic Church. The "Heretics" were attempting to undermine the authority of the church.
End Quote


The leaders ALWAYS have a different agenda the People are the ones who buy into the lie.................Here is why people left their homes and left everything to go murder men women and children in another land.

Urban II:
Speech at Clermont 1095

"But if you are hindered by love of children, parents, or of wife, remember what the Lord says in the Gospel, `He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me', 'Every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.'

"This royal city, however, situated at the center of the earth, is now held captive by the enemies of Christ and is subjected, by those who do not know God, to the worship the heathen. She seeks, therefore, and desires to be liberated and ceases not to implore you to come to her aid. From you especially she asks succor, because as we have already said, God has conferred upon you above all other nations great glory in arms. Accordingly, undertake this journey eagerly for the remission of your sins, with the assurance of the reward of imperishable glory in the kingdon of heaven.."

and it was ordinary people for the most part that got killed in the Inquisition. It was not Kings and Queens that is for sure.


You said
I'm not going to suggest that Justin was amill. I don't know. However, my comment was aimed at why Justin and the Early Christians believed the way that they did. Why did they believe in "ultivate piety, righteousness, philanthropy, faith, and hope, which we have from the Father Himself through Him who was crucified"?
End Quote



NO Once agian I do not see what you do not get Justin Said That amill is a heresy and that THERE WILL BE A LITERAL 1,000 years .


You said
I will respectfully disagree with Justin on this point. I agree that the resurrection is future, but the rebuilding of the Temple is not an eschatological event.
End Quote


Justin does not say there will be another Temple BUILT BY GOD...............I have no doubt the Fundies and Jews will build a Temple with the AC thinking it is the Temple of God...and That jesus is right there with them ....................but it will only be the abomination of desolation. God does not want or need another Temple.............only Satan wants it so he can sit in it and show himself as God.

What Justin says is the city is built he does not say how and he does not need to Rev and Ezekiel tell us what it will look like.


You said
But WHY??? I've laid forth WHY I do not think that the passage refers to what your interpretation requires.
End Quote


Why??????????...Because you presented NO verses where God says that Nations is a symbol that you get to spiritualise away.

Allow me to demonstrate. In Rev 11: we have this verse. Not that this verse has anything to do with this topic just an example

3: And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.4: These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

Now here we are told that the Olive Trees and Candlesticks are symbols.

You have provided no such direction in scripture for your spiritualisation of Nations into the Inner battle or spiritual battle between good and evil.

DO you understand YOU CAN NOT just interpret at your whim......you must receive scriptural direction to move out of the Literal meaning........................if YOU DO NOT FOLLOW this direction you WILL end up lost. It is like looking at a map and deciding for your self what each symbol means and what is and is not a symbol...........you could do it but you will only get lost.


you said and quoted me

I'm sorry... Does that not embrace my point about the passage refering to the work of the Lord?



Quote:





We are not supposed to follow

Dan:11:38: But in his estate shall he honour the God of forces:

The God of Forces is Baal.

Curiously the only False God Mentioned in Rev…………..well not so curious at all really.

What you need to do is study WHO the Angel in the Pit is....you know the king of the Pit................He is the Destroyer ...........So How did he get that Title........................and Who is he. Perhaps that will help you see the Truth of this.







I'm not sure how this affects the discussion at the moment...
ENd Quote




How this affect the discussion is because if you understand Who and What the principalities and power we are battling are you will better understand what is being said here.

The Beast the King of the Pit.................IS Azazel the Fallen Angel..........................He was the Phoenician God BAAL God of War and Forces.................We are Told This

Enoch 8:1 And Azazel taught men to make swords, and knives, and shields, and breastplates, and made known to them the metals of the earth and the art of working them, and bracelets, and ornaments, and the use of antimony,

Azazel is God of War and Forces .........................He is the God of the Empires of the Earth at the Time of BOTH ADVENTS of Jesus.

Just look at what he taught us and Look at Isaiah 2:2-4 again and perhaps it will start to become clear to you what the Truth of Isaiah 2: is.

This world follows after Azazel the God of War and Forces.................Every single nation is deceived by this lie of Azazel and All Nations are drawn to Battle.

Notice after the 1,000 years in Rev 20: when the Devil is let out of the Pit after the 1,000 years look what he does.

7: And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8: And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle:

He deceives the Nation and that deception is to draw them to Battle.

Please hear the words of the Lord for they are True and Can be Trusted. This Willy-nilly spiritualisation of scripture Denies the True Nature of this Battle of Principalities and Powers that we are part of.

It is time for Christianity to do as it first did ...................its First love………………………..It is time to refuse to serve in the Armies of Azazel and to refuse to participate in the production of the tools of Azazel…………………..could you imagine an Apostle, Saint or Martyr working in a Roman sword factory……………We must return to our first love and repent or receive the plagues of Gods final wrath before judgement day begins.