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View Full Version : Does anybody know who the 144,000 are?



Kelp(p)
12-02-2014, 12:55 AM
Like, is there a list? I'm guessing the Apostles and the seven angels were (thought to be) among the number.

Did Rutherford think he was anointed?

Are any still alive?

Cow Poke
12-02-2014, 04:28 AM
Like, is there a list? I'm guessing the Apostles and the seven angels were (thought to be) among the number.

Did Rutherford think he was anointed?

Are any still alive?

Revelation being a book of "signs", I'm not sure the 144,000 number is literal. The number 12 (the tribes) is squared then multiplied by 1,000 to get 144,000, which could well be a way of doubly saying "completeness" - the redeemed will surely be in Heaven.

In both Rev 7 and 14, they are obviously "the redeemed", having God's mark on their foreheads.

If we take the number, 144,000, literally, then we should also take literally the statement that these 144,000 come from the 12 tribes, 12,000 from each tribe of Israel, so they must necessarily be Israelites.

I don't think the angels would be among that number, as they aren't "redeemed".

I don't think we have any JWs on Tweb, but they, of course, have taken this number quite literally, seemingly unable to understand the fact that Revelation is quite often very symbolic.

Cow Poke
12-02-2014, 04:34 AM
Interesting... the Watchtower takes this even more literally than I had thought (http://www.towerwatch.com/Witnesses/statistics/partakers.htm)....

2959

Kelp(p)
12-02-2014, 05:36 AM
Actually, that's tracking the people who took communion. The J-Dubs believe that only 144,000 were chosen to be born again from the Apostles to 1935. Only they get to take communion. All the rest just set a table with bread and wine once a year and sit around staring at it. Oddly, if they do decide to take communion, the leadership doesn't stop them though apparently it does shame them:
Over the years some, even ones newly baptized, have suddenly begun to partake. In a number of cases, after a while they acknowledged that this was an error. Some have recognized that they partook as an emotional response to perhaps physical or mental strain. But they came to see that they really were not called to heavenly life. They asked for God’s merciful understanding. And they continue to serve him as fine, loyal Christians, having the hope of everlasting life on earth.

There is no need for any of us to be concerned if a person begins to partake of the emblems or ceases to do so. It really is not up to us whether someone actually has been anointed with holy spirit and called to heavenly life or not. Recall Jesus’ solid assurance: "I am the fine shepherd, and I know my sheep." Just as assuredly, Jehovah knows those whom he has chosen as spiritual sons. There is every reason to believe that the number of anointed ones will continue to decline as advanced age and unforeseen occurrences end their earthly lives. Yet, even as these truly anointed ones prove faithful till death, in line for the crown of life, the other sheep, who have washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb, can look forward to surviving the impending great tribulation.—2 Timothy 4:6-8; Revelation 2:10.

Christianbookworm
12-02-2014, 05:47 AM
The idea of only 144,000 in 1900 years seems weird.

Kelp(p)
12-02-2014, 06:01 AM
Really. Everyone else is just a "grandchild of God," not a child.

Although, in 2007, they actually changed the prophecy! Now anybody could be anointed, but the crazy psychological pressure I mentioned above can still happen.

Kelp(p)
12-02-2014, 06:05 AM
I guess I got my answer. They only actually count the anointed by who takes the communion and is good enough. http://christianity.stackexchange.com/questions/5607/do-jehovahs-witnesses-celebrate-communion

Jedidiah
12-02-2014, 01:47 PM
My folks are JW so I have a little information. The 144,000 being the only ones who go to heaven does not mean they are the only ones saved. All good JWs who are not among the 144,000 will dwell eternally in what amounts to a restored sinless Eden. So there are no limits to salvation. They even seem to agree, according to a fellow who comes around once in a while (having accepted that I am not ready to be converted, but my folks are JW . . .) ready to accept that even non JW believers can be saved. I think this is a recent position, not sure.

Christianbookworm
12-02-2014, 01:53 PM
My folks are JW so I have a little information. The 144,000 being the only ones who go to heaven does not mean they are the only ones saved. All good JWs who are not among the 144,000 will dwell eternally in what amounts to a restored sinless Eden. So there are no limits to salvation. They even seem to agree, according to a fellow who comes around once in a while (having accepted that I am not ready to be converted, but my folks are JW . . .) ready to accept that even non JW believers can be saved. I think this is a recent position, not sure.
So... the New Earth! What's funny is that some ex-JW website pretty much denied the physical resurrection, presumably as a reaction to this doctrine.

Cow Poke
12-02-2014, 02:51 PM
My folks are JW so I have a little information. The 144,000 being the only ones who go to heaven does not mean they are the only ones saved. All good JWs who are not among the 144,000 will dwell eternally in what amounts to a restored sinless Eden. So there are no limits to salvation. They even seem to agree, according to a fellow who comes around once in a while (having accepted that I am not ready to be converted, but my folks are JW . . .) ready to accept that even non JW believers can be saved. I think this is a recent position, not sure.

When you ARE ready to be converted, give me a call first, ok? :smile:

Jedidiah
12-02-2014, 09:03 PM
When you ARE ready to be converted, give me a call first, ok? :smile:

I'll talk it over with you in heaven before I convert. OKAY?

It is a funny thing about JWs. If someone is in "society" and leaves they are to be shunned until they return, and even when returned are second class citizens. I have a cousin who is also JW who planned to convert me while I was down visiting. My mother told her not to do it. My folks are afraid that I might join and then leave. They could no longer talk to me. So what does that mean?

Kelp(p)
12-03-2014, 12:18 AM
So... the New Earth! What's funny is that some ex-JW website pretty much denied the physical resurrection, presumably as a reaction to this doctrine.The JWs believe Christ was not physically resurrected.

apostoli
12-03-2014, 01:13 AM
The JWs believe Christ was not physically resurrected.Where did you get such a ignorant, stupid idea. Via my ex-wife I had over 20 years experience with the JWs and never did I hear such a stupidity. Of course you can take issue with the apostle Paul and scripture!!! (try reading Romans 6; 1 Cor 15). I suffer in my current body numerous disabilities, so no way do I want to be resurrected in my current state!!! Under the Christian hope/promise (via A.Paul) I am gauranted that "So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption"

Good idea if you read scripture and poke your head out of your colon inspection occasionally.

Kelp(p)
12-03-2014, 01:46 AM
Duuuude, calm down.

I should have been more precise. JW's believe that Jesus was not raised in the same body in which He died. (http://www.spotlightministries.org.uk/jwjesusres.htm)


"...many persons believe that Christ took his fleshly body to heaven. They point to the fact that when Christ was raised from the dead, his fleshly body was no longer in the tomb (Mark 16:5-7). Also, after his death Jesus appeared to his disciples in a fleshly body to show them that he was alive. Once He even had the apostle Thomas put his hand into the hole in His side so that Thomas would believe that He had actually been resurrected (John 20:24-27) Does this not prove that Christ was raised alive in the same body in which he was put to death? No it does not." (You Can Live Forever on Paradise Earth, pp. 143-144). They believe that Jesus' original body dissolved in atoms in the tomb.

Instead, the JWs came up with this weird idea that there are physical bodies and there are "spiritual bodies." Everybody resurrected gets one of these spiritual bodies. It's ironic that they bash orthodox Christianity for allegedly picking up the idea of the immortal soul from Greek philosophy and yet the closest thing in the rest of the world to their "spiritual body" malarkey is the Hindu idea of a "subtle body." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subtle_body)

In contrast, the orthodox teaching is that the very same physical body we died in is raised and rendered incorruptible and death free. See the difference?

Watchtower Online Library: http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1101989262

Cow Poke
12-03-2014, 04:06 AM
Where did you get such a ignorant, stupid idea. Via my ex-wife I had over 20 years experience with the JWs and never did I hear such a stupidity. Of course you can take issue with the apostle Paul and scripture!!! (try reading Romans 6; 1 Cor 15). I suffer in my current body numerous disabilities, so no way do I want to be resurrected in my current state!!! Under the Christian hope/promise (via A.Paul) I am gauranted that "So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption"

Good idea if you read scripture and poke your head out of your colon inspection occasionally.

It is warm Christlike admonitions like this that restore my hope in the future of Christianity.

Christianbookworm
12-03-2014, 04:17 AM
The JWs believe Christ was not physically resurrected.

The physical resurrection of the saints. He didn't think we would be living in a physical universe.

Kelp(p)
12-03-2014, 04:19 AM
Huh? Sorry, I don't follow.

Christianbookworm
12-03-2014, 04:53 AM
Huh? Sorry, I don't follow.

I wasn't refering to Jesus' resurrection body. I know that Paul's argument means that denying any physical resurrection of the dead would include Jesus, but I doubt the website guy was thinking that far ahead. Seemed like a reaction to JW theology.

Kelp(p)
12-03-2014, 05:19 AM
Oh, yeah. That was a quote from one of the Watchtower books. The JWs believe the Saints will have spiritual bodies as well, but they'll mostly be living on a Paradise Earth. They also explain things like how Thomas was able to touch His wounds as Jesus assuming a throw-away physical body.

It reaches Ptolemaic levels of complexity.

Christianbookworm
12-03-2014, 05:22 AM
Oh, yeah. That was a quote from one of the Watchtower books. The JWs believe the Saints will have spiritual bodies as well, but they'll mostly be living on a Paradise Earth. They also explain things like how Thomas was able to touch His wounds as Jesus assuming a throw-away physical body.

It reaches Ptolemaic levels of complexity.

:huh: So the ex-JW was wrong about both JW and Christian views of heaven? Maybe I should find the link...

Christianbookworm
12-03-2014, 05:27 AM
http://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/earth-forever.php#L3
http://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/earth-forever.php
And he thinks that entropy would somehow be a problem...
hint: the universe also gets renewed!

Kelp(p)
12-03-2014, 06:38 AM
Huh.

He does raise some interesting points I hadn't thought of before such as the whole population thing. I guess it depends on whether there's different physical laws or not. And I don't think he gave good reasons why God can't just sustain the earth. Really, when we're talking about the renewal of creation, all bets are off.

Christianbookworm
12-03-2014, 06:44 AM
Huh.

He does raise some interesting points I hadn't thought of before such as the whole population thing. I guess it depends on whether there's different physical laws or not. And I don't think he gave good reasons why God can't just sustain the earth. Really, when we're talking about the renewal of creation, all bets are off.

Indeed. Is there a quota for major divine miracles?

Kelp(p)
12-03-2014, 07:06 AM
If the New Earth is to replace this one, what's the stop the new earth from becoming unsuitable? Will there then be a New New Earth?

Cow Poke
12-03-2014, 07:07 AM
If the New Earth is to replace this one, what's the stop the new earth from becoming unsuitable?

Rev 20:10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Christianbookworm
12-03-2014, 07:09 AM
God sustaining the universe to the point of reducing entropy to null?

Cow Poke
12-03-2014, 07:20 AM
God sustaining the universe to the point of reducing entropy to null?

I'm still marveling at the jargon! :stunned:

Kelp(p)
12-03-2014, 07:21 AM
Entropy only applies to a closed system, so if God is constantly adding energy it would be effectively canceled.

DesertBerean
12-03-2014, 07:43 AM
It is warm Christlike admonitions like this that restore my hope in the future of Christianity.
You think?

Jedidiah
12-03-2014, 02:50 PM
Where did you get such a ignorant, stupid idea. Via my ex-wife I had over 20 years experience with the JWs and never did I hear such a stupidity. Of course you can take issue with the apostle Paul and scripture!!! (try reading Romans 6; 1 Cor 15). I suffer in my current body numerous disabilities, so no way do I want to be resurrected in my current state!!! Under the Christian hope/promise (via A.Paul) I am gauranted that "So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption"

Good idea if you read scripture and poke your head out of your colon inspection occasionally.

You are the one with the head in the wrong place. Kelp was not making the statement of his belief but of that of JWs. JWs do indeed deny the physical resurrection of the body of Jesus. According to them He was raised not with a glorified body, but a spiritual one. His physical body is preserved from decay in some undisclosed location. Kelp was not making the statement of his belief but of that of JWs.

Cow Poke
12-03-2014, 02:52 PM
You think?

Sometimes, but it really hurts.

Jedidiah
12-03-2014, 02:53 PM
God sustaining the universe to the point of reducing entropy to null?

Whole new creation. Current physics need not apply.

Kelp(p)
12-03-2014, 07:08 PM
Rev 20:10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Oh! Now I get it. You were saying the Lake of Fire might ruin the New Earth.

I tend to think of that as metaphorical :shrug:

Kelp(p)
12-06-2014, 04:52 AM
Apostoli, if you're still there, this short video describes what I mean about spiritual bodies a lot better than I can, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6jNaVgyqUD8