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John Reece
May 16th 2003, 09:49 AM
1 John 3

2 Beloved, we are God's children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when he appears* we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is.
Footnote:

*Or: when it appears (ESV)

The reason for the ambiguity (indicated by the footnote) in 1 John 3:2 is the lack of an explicit subject of the verb fanerwqh, which can be rendered "he appears" or "it appears".

From A. T. Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testment:

The subject may be Christ as in verse 9, or the future manifestation just mentioned . Either makes sense, probably “it” here better than “he.” Like him (‘omoioi autw). Autoi is associative instrumental case after ‘omoioi. This is our destiny and glory (Rom. 8:29), to be like Jesus who is like God (2 Cor. 4:6). We shall see him as he is (oyomeqa auton kaqwV estin). Future middle indicative of ‘oraw. The transforming vision of Christ (1 Cor. 13:12) is the consummation of the glorious process begun at the new birth (2 Cor. 3:18).

From David Smith, The Expositor’s Greek Testament:

Ver. 2. Having spoken of our present dignity, the Apostle goes on to speak of our future destiny. The incarnation manifested our standing as children of God, but “it was not yet manifested what we shall be”. The aorist efanerwqh ([I]cf. egnw in previous verse) refers to the historic manifestation in Jesus Christ. The N.T. says nothing definite about the nature of our future glory. With our present faculties we cannot conceive it. It must be experienced to be understood. Jesus simply assures us of the felicity of the Father’s House, and bids us take His word for it (cf. John 14:2). ean fanerwqh, “if it may be manifested,” taking up oupw efanerwqh. This obvious connection is decisive against the rendering “if he be manifested” (cf. 2:28; Col. 3:4). ‘oti, k.t.l.: What we shall be was not manifested, but this we know that we shall be like Him. And how do we know it? From His promise that “we shall see him as He is” (cf. John 17:24). The argument is twofold: (1) vision of God implies likeness to him in character and affection (cf. Matt. 5:8); (2) the vision of God transfigures (cf. 2 Cor. 3:18), even in this life.

“Ah! the Master is so fair,
His smile so sweet to banished men,
That they who meet it unaware
Can never rest on earth again.”

And how will it be when we “see Him face to face” (1 Cor. 13:12)? St. Augustine expresses much of the Apostle’s thought in a beautiful sentence: “Tota vita Christiani boni sanctum desiderium est”.

Anyone care to translate the quote from Augustine?

Solly
August 7th 2003, 05:25 AM
Lonely Thread Bumping Service

Jaltus
August 7th 2003, 10:48 AM
Maybe:

"The total Christian life well sanctified is desired."

Could be totally wrong as my Latin is very limited.

John Reece
August 7th 2003, 11:20 AM
Thanks, Jaltus.

David Smith characterized the quote by saying, "St. Augustine expresses much of the Apostle’s thought in a beautiful sentence". I wonder if it's possible to make "a beautiful sentence" of it in English, while retaining the essence of the meaning it has in Latin.

This is a good example of the fact that languages, foreign to each other, do not have a word-for-word correspondence in terms of sense and meaning, and word-for-word translations are not necessarily the best or most accurate translations. Otherwise, a word-for-word translation of the quote in question would be as beautiful in English as Smith says it is in Latin.

I think I'll ask Carl Conrad for his thought on this.

Solly
August 7th 2003, 11:33 AM
Does he give the source? I have NPNF... (like everyone else I suppose...) :smile:

John Reece
August 7th 2003, 11:57 AM
Today @ 03:33 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=171563#post171563)
Solly:

Does he give the source? I have NPNF... (like everyone else I suppose...) :smile:

No, Solly, no source cited by Smith.

George Blaisdell
August 7th 2003, 11:59 AM
John writes:

“Tota vita Christiani boni sanctum desiderium est”.
I think it might be: "All good Christian life is sacred desire."

My ONT vol2 has this pericope as follows:

3:2 Beloved, now we are children of God, and it was not yet made manifest what we shall be; but we know that if He should be made manifest, we shall be like Him; for we shall see Him even as He is.

This translation both agrees and disagrees with you. The 'eschatology' is a realized one, describing the consequence of Christ's appearance to those purified in heart, how it is that they are changed in that encounter by the mere presence of the encounter... Blessed are the pure in heart... Yet the way is narrow... He is speaking, of course, of the perfection of the saints upon the earth following their discipleship...

geo

John Reece
August 7th 2003, 12:13 PM
Today @ 03:59 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=171626#post171626)
George Blaisdell:

. . . .The 'eschatology' is a realized one, describing the consequence of Christ's appearance to those purified in heart, how it is that they are changed in that encounter by the mere presence of the encounter... Blessed are the pure in heart... Yet the way is narrow... He is speaking, of course, of the perfection of the saints upon the earth following their discipleship...

geo

:huh:

I'm a preterist. But the fulfillment of 1 John 3:2 sure looks yet future to me. Had not the author been discipled? Yet he writes of a fulfillment yet future to him; and it seems to me, yet future to me.

John Reece
August 7th 2003, 03:06 PM
Carl Conrad tried to get to this forum by a link I sent him, but the link did not work for him (I think because he uses a Mac computer), and when he came to TWeb's home page without the link, he did not know how to find this thread. So he asked me to send him our discussion via e-mail. Here is his response:

That helps considerably. While I don't see the immediate relevance of the Augustine citation to the text of John 3:2, I would English it ("Tota vita Christiani boni sanctum desiderium est") as "The whole life of a Christian is a sanctified desire for the good." I am reasonably confident of this translation, and it seems to me perfectly appropriate to Augustine as one who has long been called a Christian Platonist, or as one who has reformulated Platonic thought in Christian terms. The Platonic Socrates in one text after another, particularly in the Phaedo, claims that human beings do all things for the sake of TO AGAQON and the better they are, the more clearly and successfully do they do so. In the Republic TO AGAQON is compared to the Sun as the illuminator of all that is authentically true and real and good; in the Symposium he makes similar affirmations about TO KALON and makes it clear that he means by TO KALON the same thing that he means by TO AGAQON.

I hope this helps. Best Regards, cwc