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IwreckNsow
12-04-2014, 12:58 PM
Must you observe to keep the 10 commandments {including the sabbath} in order to be saved to the kingdom?

Bill the Cat
12-04-2014, 01:03 PM
No

IwreckNsow
12-04-2014, 01:17 PM
Are ya sure Bill?

LUKE 4 [14] And JESUS returned in the power of the Spirit into Galilee: and there went out a fame of him through all the region round about.[15] And he taught in their synagogues, being glorified of all.[16] And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, AS HIS CUSTOM WAS, he WENT INTO THE SYNAGOGUE ON THE SABBATH DAY, and stood up for to read.

JESUS kept the sabbath

ACTS 17 [2] AND PAUL, AS HIS MANNER WAS, went in unto them, and three SABBATH DAYS reasoned with them out of the scriptures,[3] Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ.

PAUL kept the sabbath

ACTS 13 [42] And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, THE GENTILES besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.[43] Now when the congregation was broken up, many of the Jews and religious proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God.[44] And THE NEXT SABBATH DAY CAME ALMOST THE WHOLE CITY TOGETHER TO HEAR THE WORD OF GOD.

GENTILES come together on the sabbath to hear the WORD.

Bill the Cat
12-04-2014, 01:37 PM
Are ya sure Bill?.

Positive. Paul says in Romans 7 that the knowledge of the Law was what made sin come alive in him, but grace is what made him alive in Christ. If the 10 commandments were necessary for our salvation, then those before they were given were not saved. But I think that you know what Hebrews 11 says about those who are in faith, even before the Covenant at Sinai was established.

Cow Poke
12-04-2014, 03:08 PM
No

yeah!



I mean... Yeah, "no"!

Cow Poke
12-04-2014, 03:10 PM
Mk 2:27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:

Jedidiah
12-04-2014, 05:44 PM
Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved.

IwreckNsow
12-04-2014, 06:51 PM
Mk 2:27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:

Yes Cow Poke. Jesus did make the sabbath for man. So why would man turn his back on Jesus and try to create a different day of rest. Dont make sence to me. Jesus also said He was Lord of the sabbath day

mossrose
12-04-2014, 07:11 PM
Yes Cow Poke. Jesus did make the sabbath for man. So why would man turn his back on Jesus and try to create a different day of rest. Dont make sence to me. Jesus also said He was Lord of the sabbath day

Are you Seventh Day Adventist?

IwreckNsow
12-04-2014, 07:32 PM
Are you Seventh Day Adventist?

Nope. Dont know what label you might put me under. Read along time ago in the bible that the whole world would be decieved, so i threw out all i heard and all i was told and started studying the bible on my own. I was very surprised at what i found.

Cow Poke
12-04-2014, 07:33 PM
Yes Cow Poke. Jesus did make the sabbath for man. So why would man turn his back on Jesus and try to create a different day of rest. Dont make sence to me. Jesus also said He was Lord of the sabbath day

Sense. Not sence. :glare:

Cow Poke
12-04-2014, 07:34 PM
Nope. Dont know what label you might put me under. Read along time ago in the bible that the whole world would be decieved, so i threw out all i heard and all i was told and started studying the bible on my own. I was very surprised at what i found.

Ah, one of THOSE! :teeth:

Adrift
12-04-2014, 07:35 PM
Nope. Dont know what label you might put me under. Read along time ago in the bible that the whole world would be decieved, so i threw out all i heard and all i was told and started studying the bible on my own. I was very surprised at what i found.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OWwOJlOI1nU

Christianbookworm
12-04-2014, 07:36 PM
Nope. Dont know what label you might put me under. Read along time ago in the bible that the whole world would be decieved, so i threw out all i heard and all i was told and started studying the bible on my own. I was very surprised at what i found.

Great. Unless you're an expert in a multitude of relevant fields(sociology, ancient Hebrew, linguistics, psychology, Koine Greek, literary criticism, history, etc.), that is a really bad idea. We're talking about a collection of documents from a different time and culture totally different from 21st century USA.

IwreckNsow
12-04-2014, 08:26 PM
Sense. Not sence. :glare:

If yer gonna correct all my spellin.....yule be a busy man

IwreckNsow
12-04-2014, 08:31 PM
Ah, one of THOSE! :teeth:

Ya sayin theres more than 1 of me?

Cow Poke
12-04-2014, 08:51 PM
If yer gonna correct all my spellin.....yule be a busy man

Laughing. Fair enough! :thumb:

Cow Poke
12-04-2014, 08:51 PM
Ya sayin theres more than 1 of me?

Yup. A dime a dozen.

pancreasman
12-04-2014, 11:41 PM
Yup. A dime a dozen.

Oh good, another one. I shall call him mini-Michael.

Cow Poke
12-05-2014, 04:22 AM
Oh good, another one. I shall call him mini-Michael.

Well, so far he's POLITE! Gotta give him that! And he doesn't pretend to be a "a writer".

Cow Poke
12-05-2014, 04:35 AM
Nope. Dont know what label you might put me under. Read along time ago in the bible that the whole world would be decieved, so i threw out all i heard and all i was told and started studying the bible on my own. I was very surprised at what i found.

When Jesus chose his disciples, He didn't just give them a book and say, "here, read this" -- he invested 3 years of His life in them, teaching, traveling, eating, instructing...

When Paul was training Timothy, he didn't just give him a bunch of letters and say, "here, read these" -- he took him with him on missionary journeys and spent time with him, showing him what the work of the Gospel was all about.

Before you try to become a self-made Paul, you really need to be a Timothy.

Find some faithful men who can help point you in the right direction. Get involved in a Bible-teaching Christ-preaching Church.

2 Tim 2:2 The things which you have heard from me in the presence of many witnesses, entrust these to faithful men who will be able to teach others also.

Paprika
12-05-2014, 04:59 AM
Read along time ago in the bible that the whole world would be decieved, so i threw out all i heard and all i was told and started studying the bible on my own.
Congratulations! You have been deceived: by your own self.

Bill the Cat
12-05-2014, 06:21 AM
Yes Cow Poke. Jesus did make the sabbath for man. So why would man turn his back on Jesus and try to create a different day of rest. Dont make sence to me. Jesus also said He was Lord of the sabbath day

Hebrews 4 says TODAY is the Sabbath rest for Christians. That means EVERY DAY we rest in Him. We no longer serve the shadow of once a week rest. We rest in Him forever more.

Heb 4:6 Therefore, since it remains for some to enter it, and those who formerly had good news preached to them failed to enter because of disobedience,
Heb 4:7 He again fixes a certain day, “Today,” saying through David after so long a time just as has been said before,


“Today if you hear His voice,
Do not harden your hearts.”

Heb 4:8 For if Joshua had given them rest, He would not have spoken of another day after that.
Heb 4:9 So there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God.
Heb 4:10 For the one who has entered His rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His.

Bill the Cat
12-05-2014, 06:23 AM
Well, so far he's POLITE! Gotta give him that! And he doesn't pretend to be a "a writer".

Or a Creole

Sparko
12-05-2014, 07:25 AM
It's like TeeJay all over again.

probably should be moved to unorthodox.

Cow Poke
12-05-2014, 07:37 AM
Or a Creole

:lmbo:

I had forgotten about that part!!!!!

Christianbookworm
12-05-2014, 07:43 AM
Yeah, works salvation is heretical. You don't do good works to be saved, you are saved to do good works. Faith= loyalty=salvation + works

IwreckNsow
12-05-2014, 01:27 PM
Hebrews 4 says TODAY is the Sabbath rest for Christians. That means EVERY DAY we rest in Him. We no longer serve the shadow of once a week rest. We rest in Him forever more.

Heb 4:6 Therefore, since it remains for some to enter it, and those who formerly had good news preached to them failed to enter because of disobedience,
Heb 4:7 He again fixes a certain day, “Today,” saying through David after so long a time just as has been said before,


“Today if you hear His voice,
Do not harden your hearts.”



Just what does it mean Bill to "hear His voice"

HEBREWS 3 [12]Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. [13] But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. [14] For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; [15] While it is said, TO DAY IF YE WILL HEAR HIS VOICE, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.

GENESIS 26 [3] Sojourn in this land, and I will be with thee, and will bless thee; for unto thee, AND UNTO THY SEED, I will give all these countries, and I WILL PERFORM THE OATH WHICH I SWARE UNTO ABRAHAM thy father; [4] And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; [5] BECAUSE THAT ABRAHAM OBEYED MY VOICE, and kept my charge, MY COMMANDMENTS, my statutes, and MY LAWS.

Honest Abe heard Gods "voice" and so he kept His commandments

JOHN 10 [27] MY SHEEP HEAR MY VOICE, and I know them, and they follow me: [28] And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Also Gods sheep shall also hear His “voice”.

DEUT. 27 [8] And thou shalt write upon the stones all the words of this law very plainly. [9] And Moses and the priests the Levites spake unto all Israel, saying, Take heed, and hearken, O Israel; this day thou art become the people of the Lord thy God . [10] Thou shalt therefore OBEY THE VOICE of the Lord thy God, and DO HIS COMMANDMENTS and his statutes, which I command thee this day.

DEUT. 4 [12] And the Lord spake unto you out of the midst of the fire: ye heard THE VOICE of the words, but saw no similitude; only ye heard a voice. [13] And he declared unto you his covenant, which HE COMMANDED YOU TO PERFORM, EVEN TEN COMMANDMENTS; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.

It is truly Gods 10 commandments. The “voice” we are to hear

ZEPHANIAH 3 [1] Woe to her that is filthy and polluted, to the oppressing city! [2] SHE OBEYED NOT THE VOICE; she received not correction; she trusted not in the LORD; she drew not near to her God. [3] Her princes within her are roaring lions; her judges are evening wolves; they gnaw not the bones till the morrow. [4] Her prophets are light and treacherous persons: her priests have polluted the sanctuary, THEY HAVE DONE VIOLENCE TO THE LAW.

Youll find those lions and wolves mentioned in the new covenant scriptures. The bad guys

Christianbookworm
12-05-2014, 01:31 PM
:nc: Why do these guys start sounding similar after a while? Even when they claim to be original...

IwreckNsow
12-05-2014, 01:48 PM
Heb 4:9 So there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God.
Heb 4:10 For the one who has entered His rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His.

Hey again Bill the Cat. You speak of a new rest in Jesus. But verse 9 says there "remains" a sabbath rest. How can a new rest in Jesus remain if its new?

Verse 10

HEBREWS 4 [10] For HE THAT IS ENTERED INTO HIS REST, he also hath ceased from his own works, AS GOD DID FROM HIS. [11] Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

Verse 10@11 says we are to enter the same rest as God did

HEBREWS 4 [4] For he spake in a certain place of THE SEVENTH DAY on this wise, And GOD DID REST THE SEVENTH DAY from all his works

God rested the 7th day.

Bill the Cat
12-05-2014, 01:53 PM
Just what does it mean Bill to "hear His voice"

So, we are going to play this game, huh? You really need to re-read Hebrews and understand the CHANGING of the covenant, which changed the Law and the Priesthood. The Old was the shadow. The new is the eternal.



HEBREWS 3 [12]Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. [13] But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. [14] For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; [15] While it is said, TO DAY IF YE WILL HEAR HIS VOICE, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.

"Today", meaning the TRUE Sabbath of God. When we are made partakers of Christ, we hear Him "today", and thus we rest TODAY.



GENESIS 26 [3] Sojourn in this land, and I will be with thee, and will bless thee; for unto thee, AND UNTO THY SEED, I will give all these countries, and I WILL PERFORM THE OATH WHICH I SWARE UNTO ABRAHAM thy father; [4] And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; [5] BECAUSE THAT ABRAHAM OBEYED MY VOICE, and kept my charge, MY COMMANDMENTS, my statutes, and MY LAWS.

Cited in Galatians 3, and had nothing to do with obedience to the Law. It had everything to do with faith.

Hebrews 11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called, obeyed [i]by going out to a place which he was to receive for an inheritance; and he went out, not knowing where he was going.
Hebrews 11:9 By faith he lived as an alien in the land of promise, as in a foreign land, dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob, fellow heirs of the same promise;
Hebrews 11:10 for he was looking for the city which has foundations, whose architect and builder is God.


Honest Abe heard Gods "voice" and so he kept His commandments

But the 10 Commandments were not given yet, so that is a red herring. And the writer of Hebrews makes it clear that it was through FAITH, not obedience to a law, that Abraham was justified.


JOHN 10 [27] MY SHEEP HEAR MY VOICE, and I know them, and they follow me: [28] And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Also Gods sheep shall also hear His “voice”.

Why the quotes? Jesus was meaning His LITERAL voice.

John 5:25 Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.


DEUT. 27 [8] And thou shalt write upon the stones all the words of this law very plainly. [9] And Moses and the priests the Levites spake unto all Israel, saying, Take heed, and hearken, O Israel; this day thou art become the people of the Lord thy God . [10] Thou shalt therefore OBEY THE VOICE of the Lord thy God, and DO HIS COMMANDMENTS and his statutes, which I command thee this day.

That was His voice to the Jews in the OLD Covenant. But we have a NEW covenant.

Hebrews 7:12 For when the priesthood is changed, of necessity there takes place a change of law also.



DEUT. 4 [12] And the Lord spake unto you out of the midst of the fire: ye heard THE VOICE of the words, but saw no similitude; only ye heard a voice. [13] And he declared unto you his covenant, which HE COMMANDED YOU TO PERFORM, EVEN TEN COMMANDMENTS; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.

It is truly Gods 10 commandments. The “voice” we are to hear

Nope. That was the voice for that time. God changed the covenant, the priesthood, and the Law, because the Law could make NOTHING perfect.

Heb 7:19 for the Law made nothing perfect

Heb 7:28 For the Law appoints men as high priests who are weak, but the word of the oath, which came after the Law, appoints a Son, made perfect forever.

Christianbookworm
12-05-2014, 01:56 PM
Though he won't listen... still sounds like a crazy seventh day adventist.

Cow Poke
12-05-2014, 01:57 PM
Just what does it mean Bill to "hear His voice"

It is becoming obvious that you don't know. :sad:

Bill the Cat
12-05-2014, 01:58 PM
Hey again Bill the Cat. You speak of a new rest in Jesus. But verse 9 says there "remains" a sabbath rest. How can a new rest in Jesus remain if its new?

The Greek word implies that it is remaining in place and continuing.



Verse 10

HEBREWS 4 [10] For HE THAT IS ENTERED INTO HIS REST, he also hath ceased from his own works, AS GOD DID FROM HIS. [11] Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

Verse 10@11 says we are to enter the same rest as God did

Correct. Our labors are now over, just like God's. He did not pick back up on the 8th day. He rested. We are in the 7th day, the day of rest. Today. And every day. We rest in Him EVERY DAY.

Matthew 11:28 “Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest.



HEBREWS 4 [4] For he spake in a certain place of THE SEVENTH DAY on this wise, And GOD DID REST THE SEVENTH DAY from all his works

God rested the 7th day.

And today is OUR 7th day. We rest with Him.

IwreckNsow
12-05-2014, 02:17 PM
But the 10 Commandments were not given yet, so that is a red herring. And the writer of Hebrews makes it clear that it was through FAITH, not obedience to a law, that Abraham was justified.



As you can see they were givin to Abe

GENESIS 26 [3] Sojourn in this land, and I will be with thee, and will bless thee; for unto thee, AND UNTO THY SEED, I will give all these countries, and I WILL PERFORM THE OATH WHICH I SWARE UNTO ABRAHAM thy father; [4] And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; [5] BECAUSE THAT ABRAHAM OBEYED MY VOICE, and kept my charge, MY COMMANDMENTS, my statutes, and MY LAWS.

Whats do the scriptures say about faith?

GALATIANS 3[10] For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.[11] But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.[12] And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.[13] CHRIST HATH REDEEMED US FROM THE CURSE OF THE LAW, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:[14] That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; THAT WE MIGHT RECEIVE THE PROMISE OF THE SPIRIT THROUGH FAITH.

Christ did not come to destroy the law but came to redeem us from the curse of the law that we might recieve the promise of the spirit through FAITH. BUT...

GALATIANS 3 [23] But BEFORE FAITH CAME, WE WERE KEPT UNDER THE LAW, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. [24] WHEREFORE THE LAW WAS OUR SCHOOLMASTER TO BRING US UNTO CHRIST, THAT WE MIGHT BE JUSTIFIED BY FAITH. [25] But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. [26] For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. [27] For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. [28] There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. [29] And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

This scripture says what it says. Before faith came to each and everyone of us, we are under the law (10 commandments). Then the scripture goes on to say the same thing again (in case you missed it the 1st time). We are under the law (our schoolmaster) UNTIL we are justified by faith. Faith is not something that you mysteriously attain attain at birth. So, according to this scripture you are kept under the law of the 10 commandments (the schoolmaster) until you are justified by faith in Christ. No shortcuts. Then there is no condemnation. After we have been brought to faith in Christ, do we then make void the law or are we to still be keeping Gods law?

ROMANS 3 [30] Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith. [31] DO WE THEN MAKE VOID THE LAW THROUGH FAITH? GOD FORBID: yea, we establish the law.

Just because we have attained faith through the Word are we now to “do away” with Gods 10 commandments? GOD FORBID!

REV. 14 [12] Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS of God, and THE FAITH OF JESUS.

FAITH AND THE COMMANDMENTS

Cow Poke
12-05-2014, 02:19 PM
The Greek word implies that it is remaining in place and continuing.

I'm leaving this in your capable paws, Bill... be gentle!



(I typed Gentile, by accident! :smile:)

IwreckNsow
12-05-2014, 02:21 PM
Matthew 11:28 “Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest.



Scripture below says He will give you rest

MATTHEW 11 [27] All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him. [28] Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. [29] Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. [30] For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

In order to find out what rest Jesus is speaking of simply read the next verse. Keep in mind when this was written it was one continual writing. No chapters and verses.

MATTHEW 12 [1] At that time Jesus went on the sabbath day through the corn; and his disciples were an hungred, and began to pluck the ears of corn, and to eat. [2] But when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto him, Behold, thy disciples do that which is not lawful to do upon the sabbath day.

MATTHEW 12 [10] And, behold, there was a man which had his hand withered. And they asked him, saying, Is it lawful to heal on the sabbath days? that they might accuse him. [11] And he said unto them, What man shall there be among you, that shall have one sheep, and if it fall into a pit on the sabbath day, will he not lay hold on it, and lift it out? [12] How much then is a man better than a sheep? Wherefore it is lawful to do well on the sabbath days.

The Jews added over a hundred laws to the original sabbath commandment which made the 4th commandment more of a burden than a blessing. Jesus sets them straight in Matthew 12 on a couple of these added laws to His 4th commandment.

MATTHEW 23 [1] Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, [2] Saying, THE SCRIBES AND THE PHARISEES sit in Moses' seat: [3] All therefore WHATSOEVER THEY BID YOU OBSERVE, THAT OBSERVE AND DO; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not. [4] For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.

Jesus tells us to do what scribes and pharisees say to do. You can bet one of the things they said we are to observe is Gods sabbath day.

mikewhitney
12-05-2014, 02:43 PM
GALATIANS 3 [23] But BEFORE FAITH CAME, WE WERE KEPT UNDER THE LAW, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. [24] WHEREFORE THE LAW WAS OUR SCHOOLMASTER TO BRING US UNTO CHRIST, THAT WE MIGHT BE JUSTIFIED BY FAITH. [25] But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. [26] For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. [27] For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. [28] There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. [29] And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

This scripture says what it says. Before faith came to each and everyone of us, we are under the law (10 commandments). Then the scripture goes on to say the same thing again (in case you missed it the 1st time). We are under the law (our schoolmaster) UNTIL we are justified by faith. Faith is not something that you mysteriously attain attain at birth. So, according to this scripture you are kept under the law of the 10 commandments (the schoolmaster) until you are justified by faith in Christ. No shortcuts. Then there is no condemnation. After we have been brought to faith in Christ, do we then make void the law or are we to still be keeping Gods law?


Do you not see that Paul was rebuking the Galatians for becoming interested in (and on the verge of) practicing the laws, especially circumcision?

Do you not see that faith came through Christ and hence there no longer was need of a schoolmaster? I know the passage is a bit odd in that Paul has spoken to gentiles as if they grew up in a Jewish environment -- but Paul was trying to stop these gentiles from taking on the former aspects of the law, since the Galatians had already come to live by faith. As such you are missing the context of Paul's discussion when you try to say "we are under the law UNTIL we are justified by faith." The Galatians were never under the law -- and now were being admonished not to place themselves under it.

Do you not realize that 'condemnation' was coming essentially to those under the law? As such if there was no condemnation, it is because the law did not apply to them.

Did you not realize that the benefits through the promise were antithetical to expecting benefits through the law?

It would behoove you to understand a single letter, such as Galatians, before you seek to make dramatic changes from conventional Christian doctrine.

Paula
12-05-2014, 02:44 PM
While I think we should all strive for greater spiritual perfection, ultimately no one can keep even one of the ten commandments let alone all ten of them. Because to keep a commandment means to keep it fully. It is a feat that is beyond our humanity, but it is not beyond Jesus. That is what Christian faith is--trusting in Jesus for your salvation. Once we die we'll experience what sinless humanity is in the final resurrection. But until we die we are going to struggle with sin. Even Paul, who lived an exemplary life, wasn't immune to this, as he discussed in Romans 7 regarding the war between the flesh and the spirit.

For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not. 19 For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want. (Romans 7:18-19)

Cow Poke
12-05-2014, 02:50 PM
While I think we should all strive for greater spiritual perfection, ultimately no one can keep even one of the ten commandments let alone all ten of them. Because to keep a commandment means to keep it fully. It is a feat that is beyond our humanity, but it is not beyond Jesus. That is what Christian faith is--trusting in Jesus for your salvation. Once we die we'll experience what sinless humanity is in the final resurrection. But until we die we are going to struggle with sin. Even Paul, who lived an exemplary life, wasn't immune to this, as he discussed in Romans 7 regarding the war between the flesh and the spirit.

For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not. 19 For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want. (Romans 7:18-19)

Yeah.

Christianbookworm
12-05-2014, 02:50 PM
While I think we should all strive for greater spiritual perfection, ultimately no one can keep even one of the ten commandments let alone all ten of them. Because to keep a commandment means to keep it fully. It is a feat that is beyond our humanity, but it is not beyond Jesus. That is what Christian faith is--trusting in Jesus for your salvation. Once we die we'll experience what sinless humanity is in the final resurrection. But until we die we are going to struggle with sin. Even Paul, who lived an exemplary life, wasn't immune to this, as he discussed in Romans 7 regarding the war between the flesh and the spirit.

For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not. 19 For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want. (Romans 7:18-19)

The calcium carbonate sphere may go to waste with this guy.

IwreckNsow
12-05-2014, 03:17 PM
It would behoove you to understand a single letter, such as Galatians, before you seek to make dramatic changes from conventional Christian doctrine.

So just what is Galatians talkin about? The book of Galatians is a book containing 6 very short chapters. In these 6 chapters circumcision is mentioned 16 times. The commandments are not mentioned but once {the schoolmaster}. Yet, those people that wish to do away with GODS commandments use scriptures from Galatians to try and do so. The law of circumcism is one of the carnal ordinances of the law that were nailed to the cross. Those that wish to do away with Gods 10 commandments will also try and tell you that the ordinances and the ten commandments are simply parts of the law and are not separate from one another. In saying that they will point to a scripture thats speaking of circumcision and then apply that scripture to Gods 10 commandments. This is done to extreme in the book of Galatians. The scripture below separates the law, the commandments and the ordinances

2 KINGS 17 [36] But the LORD, who brought you up out of the land of Egypt with great power and a stretched out arm, him shall ye fear, and him shall ye worship, and to him shall ye do sacrifice.[37] AND the statutes, AND the ordinances, AND the law, AND the commandment, which he wrote for you, ye shall observe to do for evermore; and ye shall not fear other gods.

AND means AND

1 COR. 7 [19] Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

And although the law of circumcision was nailed to the cross, Gods law (the 10 commandments) are to be kept.

mikewhitney
12-05-2014, 03:25 PM
The book of Galatians was a corrective action against those in Galatia who were being convinced by a so-called gospel that said that, in addition to following Christ, they must also assume the laws of the Jews, i.e. those laws, ordinances, statutes and commandments given to those coming out of Egypt (see 2King 17:36-37).

Your proposal is going against the very heart of what Paul was speaking against.

Now are you trying to say that when Paul speaks of 'commandments' he means the 10 commandments? How do you find support for this in the words of Jesus or of Paul?

IwreckNsow
12-05-2014, 03:30 PM
Hebrews 4 says TODAY is the Sabbath rest for Christians. That means EVERY DAY we rest in Him. We no longer serve the shadow of once a week rest.

The sabbath was not the shadow of Christ.

COL.2 [14] BLOTTING OUT THE HANDWRITING OF ORDINANCES that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;[15] And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.[16] Let no man therefore judge you in MEAT, or in DRINK, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:[17] WHICH ARE A SHADOW OF THINGS TO COME; but the body is of Christ.

The handwriting of ORDINANCES {meat and drink offerings} has been blotted out. They were the shadow of things to come

HEBREWS 9 [1] Then verily THE FIRST COVENANT HAD ALSO ORDINANCES {Col.2v14} of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary.... [9] Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;[10] WHICH STOOD ONLY IN MEATS AND DRINKS, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.[12] NEITHER BY THE BLOOD OF GOATS AND CALVES, BUT BY HIS OWN BLOOD he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

The first covenant had ORDINANCES which stood ONLY in meat and drink offerings

EZEKIEL 46 [14] And thou shalt prepare a meat offering for it every morning, the sixth part of an ephah, and the third part of an hin of oil, to temper with the fine flour; a MEAT OFFERING continually by a perpetual ORDINANCE unto the LORD.

Meat offering by ordinance. There ya go. Hebrews 9 was ofcourse correct

HEBREWS 10 [1] For THE LAW HAVING A SHADOW of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with THOSE SACRIFICES WHICH THEY OFFERED YEAR BY YEAR continually make the comers thereunto perfect.[2] For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.[3] But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.[4] For IT IS NOT POSSIBLE THAT THE BLOOD OF BULLS AND OF GOATS SHOULD TAKE AWAY SINS.

Hebrews 10 says it all. The shadow of the law was the offerings (the meat and drink offerings). The Word does not say the sabbath was the shadow of Christ which really makes no sence at all

NUMBERS 19 [2] This is the ORDINANCE OF THE LAW which the Lord hath commanded, saying, Speak unto the children of Israel, that they bring thee a red heifer without spot, wherein is no blemish, and upon which never came yoke:

Before Christ the red heifers lived their lives in fear and trembling, thinking they might be next offering. No worries no more.

JOHN 6 [55] For my flesh is MEAT indeed, and my blood is DRINK indeed.

We are no longer under the law concerning the meat and drink offerings{the shadow}. Jesus fulfilled that portion of the law. Jesus Himself said “For my flesh is MEAT indeed, and my blood is DRINK indeed”.

mikewhitney
12-05-2014, 03:43 PM
Regarding your other statement




1 COR. 7 [19] Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

And although the law of circumcision was nailed to the cross, Gods law (the 10 commandments) are to be kept.


I haven't made a study on 1Cor. But I would suggest that the discussion in chapter 7 wasn't about the role of the 10 commandments within a Christian life. It seems merely that Paul was repeating a common Christian point which, in different words, was that circumcision did not help since those who were circumcised were not doing the other commandments of God.

Your quote of 1Cor 7 does not seem to add any strength to an argument saying that the 10 commandments are emphasized by Paul.

This is a bit beyond the issues of the current discussion but ...

I think some people have sort of the fear that Christians will seek anarchy and seek to do everything evil just because the commandments, laws, and statutes, as given to the Jews, were not also given to the gentiles. We indeed found the Corinthians acting like this. Yet Paul's admonishment wasn't to revert to Jewish laws but rather was to address their own common experience that such behavior was bad, even in their own cultural perspective. Indeed Christians can act badly -- but how does that affect salvation? If we revert to the commandments, laws, and statutes (haha. I'm not sure what distinctions are presented in scripture among these words), how does the accusations of the law make anyone any better?

IwreckNsow
12-05-2014, 03:43 PM
Now are you trying to say that when Paul speaks of 'commandments' he means the 10 commandments? How do you find support for this in the words of Jesus or of Paul?

LUKE 18 [20] Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother.

The translated word for commandments in the above scripture is “entole”. As you can see its the 10 commandments. No doubt about it.

1 Corinthians 7 [19] Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

The translated word for commandments in 1Cor.7 is again “entole”

MATTHEW 19 [16] And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? [17] And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. [18] He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, [19] Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

The translated word for commandments in Matthew 19 is “entole”. Again the 10 commandments.

1 JOHN 5 [2] By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. [3] For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

The translated word for commandments in 1 John 5 is “entole”. Same exact word used in Luke and again in Matthew. Yup, Gods very own ten commandments.

HEBREWS 11 [22] By faith Joseph, when he died, made mention of the departing of the children of Israel; and gave COMMANDMENT concerning his bones.

entellomai,;from Greek 1722 (en) and the base of Greek 5056 (telos); to enjoin :- (give) charge, (give) command (-ments), injoin. Not the 10 commandments, but a simple command.

JOHN 14 [15] If ye love me, keep my COMMANDMENTS. [16] And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; [17] Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

These commandments are translated from the word “entole”. Same “entole” you find in Luke and again in Matthew. Gods 10 commandments.

REVELATION 22 [14] Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

The word commandments found in Rev.22 is in the greek the word entole. Directions to the city

IwreckNsow
12-05-2014, 03:48 PM
Your quote of 1Cor 7 does not seem to add any strength to an argument saying that the 10 commandments are emphasized by Paul.



2 PETER 3 [15] And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; [16] As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which THEY THAT ARE UNLEARNED AND UNSTABLE WREST, AS THEY DO ALSO THE OTHER SCRIPTURES, UNTO THEIR OWN DESTRUCTION.

Pauls writings are hard to understand at times and a lot of people {to their own destruction} dont quite get it.

ACTS 25 [7] And when he was come, the Jews which came down from Jerusalem stood round about, and laid many and grievous complaints against Paul, which they could not prove. [8] While he answered for himself, NEITHER AGAINST THE LAW OF THE JEWS, neither against the temple, nor yet against Caesar, HAVE I OFFENDED ANY THING AT ALL.

Looks like the Jews of Pauls time were saying the same things im hearing now. Paul set them straight. He has done nothing to offend the law of the Jews

IwreckNsow
12-05-2014, 03:52 PM
I think some people have sort of the fear that Christians will seek anarchy and seek to do everything evil just because the commandments, laws, and statutes, as given to the Jews, were not also given to the gentiles.

According to Paul they were givin to the gentiles

EPHES. 2 [11] Wherefore remember, that ye being IN TIME PAST GENTILES in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; [12] That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and STRANGERS FROM THE COVENANTS OF PROMISE, having no hope, and without God in the world: [13] BUT NOW IN CHRIST JESUS ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. [14] For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

It was for Israel only. Was. We were once STRANGERS from Gods covenants of promise, having no hope. BUT NOW in Christ, should we take hold of those covenants, we have hope

ISAIAH 56 [6] Also the sons of THE STRANGER, that join themselves to the Lord, to serve him, and to love the name of the Lord, to be his servants, every one THAT KEEPETH THE SABBATH from polluting it, and TAKETH HOLD OF MY COVENANT; [7] EVEN THEM WILL I BRING TO MY HOLY MOUNTAIN, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for ALL PEOPLE.

Even them (us gentile STRANGERS mentioned in Ephes.2) will He bring to His holy mountain, if we should take hold of His sabbath covenant. Jesus will bring us to the 1000yr period of rest

EXODUS 31 [16] Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the SABBATH, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a PERPETUAL COVENANT.

The above scripture was one of those covenants spoken of in Ephes.2 and if you were to go look at all the wonderful promises of this covenant, should you take hold of it, you’d be amazed.

ROMANS 1 [30] Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, [31] without understanding, COVENANTBREAKERS, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: [32] Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

And you can see who Paul lumps in with the covenantbreakers. Not good company

mikewhitney
12-05-2014, 03:59 PM
2 PETER 3 [15] And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; [16] As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which THEY THAT ARE UNLEARNED AND UNSTABLE WREST, AS THEY DO ALSO THE OTHER SCRIPTURES, UNTO THEIR OWN DESTRUCTION.

Pauls writings are hard to understand at times and a lot of people {to their own destruction} dont quite get it.

ACTS 25 [7] And when he was come, the Jews which came down from Jerusalem stood round about, and laid many and grievous complaints against Paul, which they could not prove. [8] While he answered for himself, NEITHER AGAINST THE LAW OF THE JEWS, neither against the temple, nor yet against Caesar, HAVE I OFFENDED ANY THING AT ALL.

Looks like the Jews of Pauls time were saying the same things im hearing now. Paul set them straight. He has done nothing to offend the law of the Jews


You still haven't addressed the point just made "Your quote of 1Cor 7 does not seem to add any strength to an argument saying that the 10 commandments are emphasized by Paul. "

And the only way Paul's message would not violate the laws of the Jews is that Paul's audience were not considered obligated to the rules given to Jews. Indeed you would be reasonable to observe that Paul did not tell Jews to violate any of the laws given to them by God. But this does not then obligate gentiles to follow their laws.

mikewhitney
12-05-2014, 04:09 PM
According to Paul they were given to the gentiles

EPHES. 2 [11] Wherefore remember, that ye being IN TIME PAST GENTILES in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; [12] That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and STRANGERS FROM THE COVENANTS OF PROMISE, having no hope, and without God in the world: [13] BUT NOW IN CHRIST JESUS ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. [14] For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

It was for Israel only. Was. We were once STRANGERS from Gods covenants of promise, having no hope. BUT NOW in Christ, should we take hold of those covenants, we have hope

ISAIAH 56 [6] Also the sons of THE STRANGER, that join themselves to the Lord, to serve him, and to love the name of the Lord, to be his servants, every one THAT KEEPETH THE SABBATH from polluting it, and TAKETH HOLD OF MY COVENANT; [7] EVEN THEM WILL I BRING TO MY HOLY MOUNTAIN, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for ALL PEOPLE.

Even them (us gentile STRANGERS mentioned in Ephes.2) will He bring to His holy mountain, if we should take hold of His sabbath covenant. Jesus will bring us to the 1000yr period of rest

EXODUS 31 [16] Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the SABBATH, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a PERPETUAL COVENANT.

The above scripture was one of those covenants spoken of in Ephes.2 and if you were to go look at all the wonderful promises of this covenant, should you take hold of it, you’d be amazed.

ROMANS 1 [30] Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, [31] without understanding, COVENANTBREAKERS, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: [32] Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

And you can see who Paul lumps in with the covenantbreakers. Not good company

I'm not sure how you are addressing my point with what you have stated. In part you have used a text ascribed to Israel (e.g. Exo 31:16) in a discussion essentially about non-Jewish people. Now if gentiles were not under the covenant of Moses, how can they be covenant breakers? (It is beyond the current discussion to examine the role of Rom 1:18-31 within the letter -- but it was the Jews who were identified with the idea of 'covenant' and hence would fit as 'covenant breakers'. Now if the Jews themselves were covenant breakers, how would you expect gentiles to be any better when faced with the same Mosaic laws?)

Also, it seems you made an error by assuming that since gentiles enjoy a covenant of promise that somehow this covenant was built using the Jewish laws. This is the point that is still lacking support in the arguments you have made thus far.

IwreckNsow
12-05-2014, 04:11 PM
Your proposal is going against the very heart of what Paul was speaking against.

Now are you trying to say that when Paul speaks of 'commandments' he means the 10 commandments? How do you find support for this in the words of Jesus or of Paul?

Words from Jesus

Matthew 19:16-19 (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Then He names a few of the 10 commandments. Because the sabbath is not mentioned or dont be makin graven images is not mentioned doesnt mean you can ignore those commandments

IwreckNsow
12-05-2014, 04:18 PM
Indeed you would be reasonable to observe that Paul did not tell Jews to violate any of the laws given to them by God. But this does not then obligate gentiles to follow their laws.

Again from the writings of Paul

ROMANS 7 [14] For we know that THE LAW IS SPIRITUAL: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

In Romans 7 we see that the law is spiritual. In Romans 15 we see the gentiles are made partakers of that law

ROMANS 15 [25] But now I go unto Jerusalem to minister unto the saints.[26] For it hath pleased them of Macedonia and Achaia to make a certain contribution for the poor saints which are at Jerusalem.[27] It hath pleased them verily; and their debtors they are. FOR IF THE GENTILES HAVE BEEN MADE PARTAKERS OF THEIR SPIRITUAL THINGS, their duty is also to minister unto them in carnal things.

mikewhitney
12-05-2014, 04:24 PM
LUKE 18 [20] Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother.

The translated word for commandments in the above scripture is “entole”. As you can see its the 10 commandments. No doubt about it.

1 Corinthians 7 [19] Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

The translated word for commandments in 1Cor.7 is again “entole”

MATTHEW 19 [16] And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? [17] And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. [18] He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, [19] Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

The translated word for commandments in Matthew 19 is “entole”. Again the 10 commandments.

1 JOHN 5 [2] By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. [3] For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

The translated word for commandments in 1 John 5 is “entole”. Same exact word used in Luke and again in Matthew. Yup, Gods very own ten commandments.

HEBREWS 11 [22] By faith Joseph, when he died, made mention of the departing of the children of Israel; and gave COMMANDMENT concerning his bones.

entellomai,;from Greek 1722 (en) and the base of Greek 5056 (telos); to enjoin :- (give) charge, (give) command (-ments), injoin. Not the 10 commandments, but a simple command.
The word commandments found in Rev.22 is in the greek the word entole. Directions to the city

You have shown, at best, that a certain root word is used when discussing the 10 commandments. And in Matt 19, Jesus was apparently testing this man's heart. Jesus was not giving a teaching -- not to Jews, in general, and especially not to gentiles here. Then, interesting enough against your exclusive use of 'commandment' for the 10 commandments, you have shown that Joseph could also give a commandment -- one not found in the 10 commandments.

It is a common error to assume a word has a single (and universal) meaning. You seem to be making this mistake. The evidence you have provided only shows that you are rubbering stamping the usage of a word in one passage during those times when the word, with a similar or same root, appears in another passage.

So I am still wondering how you think that Paul or Jesus had instructed us to follow the 10 commandments for salvation.

IwreckNsow
12-05-2014, 04:36 PM
So I am still wondering how you think that Paul or Jesus had instructed us to follow the 10 commandments for salvation.

For salvation. No way. Your saved by grace alone. We are but filthy rags.

EPH.2 [5] Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)[6] And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:[7] That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.[8] FOR BY GRACE ARE YE SAVED through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:[9] Not of works, lest any man should boast. [10] For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which GOD HATH BEFORE ORDAINED THAT WE SHOULD WALK IN THEM.

It is by the grace of God that we are saved. Period. It is a free gift. But to whom is this free gift given? Verse 10 says that those people who will receive the free gift of grace will be walking in good works. What are these good works which GOD HATH BEFORE ORDAINED that "we must walk in"?

2 JOHN 1 [4] I rejoiced greatly that I found of thy children walking in truth, as we have received a commandment from the Father. [5] And now I beseech thee, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment unto thee, but that which we had from the beginning, that we love one another. [6] And this is love, that WE WALK AFTER HIS COMMANDMENTS. This is the commandment, That, AS YE HAVE HEARD FROM THE BEGINNING, YE SHOULD WALK IN IT.

Youve heard it from the beginning {before ordained}. Its the 10 commandments that we should walk in. But we will fall short. We will sin. No one but Jesus has kept the 10 commandments perfectly.

PSALM 78 [1] Give ear, O my people, to my law: incline your ears to the words of my mouth.[2] I WILL OPEN MY MOUTH IN A PARABLE: I will utter dark sayings of old:[3] Which we have heard and known, and our fathers have told us.[4] We will not hide them from their children, shewing to the generation to come the praises of the LORD, and his strength, and his wonderful works that he hath done.[5] FOR HE ESTABLISHED A TESTIMONY IN JACOB, AND APPOINTED A LAW IN ISRAEL, WHICH HE COMMANDED OUR FATHERS, that they should make them known to their children:[6] That the generation to come might know them, even the children which should be born; who should arise and declare them to their children:[7] That they might set their hope in God, AND NOT FORGET THE WORKS OF GOD, BUT KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS:[8] And might not be as their fathers, a stubborn and rebellious generation; a generation that set not their heart aright, and whose spirit was not stedfast with God.[9] The children of Ephraim, being armed, and carrying bows, turned back in the day of battle.[10] THEY KEPT NOT THE COVENANT OF GOD, AND REFUSED TO WALK IN HIS LAW;[11] AND FORGAT HIS WORKS, and his wonders that he had shewed them.

We all know who opened his mouth in parables and who established a testimony in Jacob. Yup, its JESUS CHRIST. So according to Eph.2 Gods people who recieve the free gift of grace, will be walking in the “WORKS” that God ordained {verse 7}. But...verse 9 and 10 prophecies of what will happen to the “many”, because they refuse to walk after the 10 commandments.

TITUS 1 [14] Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.[15] Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.[16] THEY PROFESS THAT THEY KNOW GOD; BUT IN WORKS THEY DENY HIM, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

mikewhitney
12-05-2014, 04:58 PM
For salvation. No way. Your saved by grace alone. We are but filthy rags.

You have helped establish some credibility by your response here.
You may have to clarify how you distinguish between the idea of 'kingdom' and 'salvation' in order for us to understand the question in your original post.

...edited in as an after thought:
Are you saying that 'saved to the kingdom' is a better situation than being merely saved?




EPH.2 [5] Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)[6] And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:[7] That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.[8] FOR BY GRACE ARE YE SAVED through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:[9] Not of works, lest any man should boast. [10] For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which GOD HATH BEFORE ORDAINED THAT WE SHOULD WALK IN THEM.

It is by the grace of God that we are saved. Period. It is a free gift. But to whom is this free gift given? Verse 10 says that those people who will receive the free gift of grace will be walking in good works. What are these good works which GOD HATH BEFORE ORDAINED that "we must walk in"?


This just says were are commanded to good works. This sounds like a new commandment. To associate this with the 10 commandments you would have to establish that the 'before' was through the 10 commandments rather than a later time (such as the arrival of Christ) or an earlier time (e.g. the time of Adam).



2 JOHN 1 [4] I rejoiced greatly that I found of thy children walking in truth, as we have received a commandment from the Father. [5] And now I beseech thee, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment unto thee, but that which we had from the beginning, that we love one another. [6] And this is love, that WE WALK AFTER HIS COMMANDMENTS. This is the commandment, That, AS YE HAVE HEARD FROM THE BEGINNING, YE SHOULD WALK IN IT.

Youve heard it from the beginning {before ordained}. Its the 10 commandments that we should walk in. But we will fall short. We will sin. No one but Jesus has kept the 10 commandments perfectly.


The text of 2John is not clear on the meaning of commandments. We do have a clue that the commandments of interest are focused on 'love.' However the 10 commandments did not include a commandment to love one another. So how do you wish to show that the 10 commandments are unexpectedly addressed here?




TITUS 1 [14] Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.[15] Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.[16] THEY PROFESS THAT THEY KNOW GOD; BUT IN WORKS THEY DENY HIM, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

Again we see that 'commandments' can be made by a source other than God (or Moses). This point contradicts your inclination to apply 'commandment' to only the 10 commandments.

So why are you thinking that the 10 commandments are enforced as a legal requirement upon Christians?

IwreckNsow
12-05-2014, 05:04 PM
God changed the covenant, the priesthood, and the Law, because the Law could make NOTHING perfect.

Heb 7:19 for the Law made nothing perfect

Heb 7:28 For the Law appoints men as high priests who are weak, but the word of the oath, which came after the Law, appoints a Son, made perfect forever.

What law made nothing perfect?

Hebrews 7
19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.
20 And inasmuch as not without an oath he was made priest:
21 (For those priests were made without an oath; but this with an oath by him that said unto him, The Lord sware and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec:)
22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.
23 And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death:
24 But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.
25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.
26 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;
27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.

Verse 27. Theres the points of the law that made nothing perfect. No more animal sacrificies. No more meat and drink offerings for the forgiveness of sins

HEBREWS 10 [7] Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God. [8] Above when he said, SACRIFICE AND OFFERING AND BURNT OFFERINGS AND OFFERING FOR SIN THOU WOULDEST NOT, NEITHER HADST PLEASURE THEREIN; WHICH ARE OFFERED BY THE LAW; [9] Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. HE TAKETH AWAY THE FIRST, THAT HE MAY ESTABLISH THE SECOND. [10] By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. [11] And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: [12] But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

Out with the old. In with the new

IwreckNsow
12-05-2014, 05:18 PM
...edited in as an after thought:
Are you saying that 'saved to the kingdom' is a better situation than being merely saved?



Hi Mike
Thats actually the only place the saved are goin and Jesus will be there with us. We aint headin for heaven at anytime

John 3:12-13 (KJV)
12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

IwreckNsow
12-05-2014, 05:23 PM
The text of 2John is not clear on the meaning of commandments. We do have a clue that the commandments of interest are focused on 'love.' However the 10 commandments did not include a commandment to love one another. So how do you wish to show that the 10 commandments are unexpectedly addressed here?



Your sayin we need not keep Gods 10 commandments because we are givin a new testament commandment “to love one another”. Problem is the new testament scriptures tell us how to “love one another”.

1JOHN 5 [2] By this WE KNOW THAT WE LOVE THE CHILDREN OF GOD, when we love God, and keep his commandments. [3] For THIS IS THE LOVE OF GOD, THAT WE KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS: and his commandments are not grievous.

To love the children of God, we are to keep the commandments

2JOHN1 [5] And now I beseech thee, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment unto thee, but that which we had from the beginning, that WE LOVE ONE ANOTHER.[6] And THIS IS LOVE, THAT WE WALK AFTER HIS COMMANDMENTS. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.

Love one another. Keep the commandments

JAMES 2 [8] If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, THOU SHALT LOVE THY NEIGHBOUR AS THYSELF, ye do well: [9] But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.[10] For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.[11] For he that said, DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, said also, DO NOT KILL. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.

ROMANS 13 [8] Owe no man any thing, but to LOVE ONE ANOTHER: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.[9] For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, THOU SHALT NOT STEAL, Thou shalt not bear false witness, THOU SHALT NOT COVET; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.[10] Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

I decided to show the scripture of James 2 and Romans 13 which explain to us how we are to show our love for one another because im sure the next thing i hear is that it is not the 10 commandments being mentioned. But as you can see in these scriptures, adultry killing, stealing, bearing false witness, covetness are mentioned. And i suppose i will hear you say that since the “keeping of the sabbath” is not mentioned or “thou shalt have no other gods before me" is not mentioned these commandments can be ignored.

JOHN 15 [8] Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.[9] As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.[10] IF YE KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS, ye shall abide in my love; even as I HAVE KEPT MY FATHER'S COMMANDMENTS, AND ABIDE IN HIS LOVE.

Bill the Cat
12-05-2014, 05:24 PM
As you can see they were givin to Abe

GENESIS 26 [3] Sojourn in this land, and I will be with thee, and will bless thee; for unto thee, AND UNTO THY SEED, I will give all these countries, and I WILL PERFORM THE OATH WHICH I SWARE UNTO ABRAHAM thy father; [4] And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; [5] BECAUSE THAT ABRAHAM OBEYED MY VOICE, and kept my charge, MY COMMANDMENTS, my statutes, and MY LAWS.

These are not the Decalogue, which scripture declares several times were given to Moses on Sinai.

John 1:17 For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.



Whats do the scriptures say about faith?

GALATIANS 3[10] For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.[11] But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.[12] And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.[13] CHRIST HATH REDEEMED US FROM THE CURSE OF THE LAW, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:[14] That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; THAT WE MIGHT RECEIVE THE PROMISE OF THE SPIRIT THROUGH FAITH.

Christ did not come to destroy the law but came to redeem us from the curse of the law that we might recieve the promise of the spirit through FAITH.

Correct. No one claims He came to destroy it. He came to fulfil its requirements on our behalf so that those who accept Him are free from the punishments proscribed by that law.


BUT...

GALATIANS 3 [23] But BEFORE FAITH CAME, WE WERE KEPT UNDER THE LAW, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. [24] WHEREFORE THE LAW WAS OUR SCHOOLMASTER TO BRING US UNTO CHRIST, THAT WE MIGHT BE JUSTIFIED BY FAITH. [25] But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. [26] For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. [27] For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. [28] There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. [29] And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

This scripture says what it says. Before faith came to each and everyone of us, we are under the law (10 commandments).

Correct. The law is what lets us know what God considers sin. That is what a "schoolmaster" meant to a Greek speaking city of Galatia.


Then the scripture goes on to say the same thing again (in case you missed it the 1st time). We are under the law (our schoolmaster) UNTIL we are justified by faith.

Nope. We are not under the law unless we choose to be. We are not Jews (at least I am not), so therefore, I do not have to submit to the obsolete covenant.


Faith is not something that you mysteriously attain attain at birth. So, according to this scripture you are kept under the law of the 10 commandments (the schoolmaster) until you are justified by faith in Christ. No shortcuts. Then there is no condemnation. After we have been brought to faith in Christ, do we then make void the law or are we to still be keeping Gods law?

ROMANS 3 [30] Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith. [31] DO WE THEN MAKE VOID THE LAW THROUGH FAITH? GOD FORBID: yea, we establish the law.

We do not obey the law in order to "keep saved". Only apostasy can remove our salvation. That's where you fail miserably. The Decalogue is wholly unnecessary for salvation and is in fact obsolete.

Hebrews 8:13 By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.


Just because we have attained faith through the Word are we now to “do away” with Gods 10 commandments? GOD FORBID!

If we live the Law of love that Jesus gave, we will naturally not violate any of the 10. But, we do not live by the Old, we live by the New with better priesthood and promises.

Heb 8:7 For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another.
Heb 8:8 But God found fault with the people and said:

“The days are coming, declares the Lord,
when I will make a new covenant
with the people of Israel
and with the people of Judah.

Heb 8:9
It will not be like the covenant
I made with their ancestors
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they did not remain faithful to my covenant,
and I turned away from them,
declares the Lord.



REV. 14 [12] Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS of God, and THE FAITH OF JESUS.

FAITH AND THE COMMANDMENTS

The Command of Jesus is to love the One God and to love one another. On this the whole of the Law rests (Mark 12:29-31).

mikewhitney
12-05-2014, 05:26 PM
Hi Mike
Thats actually the only place the saved are goin and Jesus will be there with us. We aint headin for heaven at anytime

John 3:12-13 (KJV)
12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.


So we are left with the question about the role of the 10 commandments as you envision these commandments take on within a Christian's life and salvation. What are you saying we must do? and what are the consequences of not doing these? Your original post addressed the idea of being saved in connection with the 10 commandments.

Bill the Cat
12-05-2014, 05:28 PM
Scripture below says He will give you rest

MATTHEW 11 [27] All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him. [28] Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. [29] Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. [30] For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

In order to find out what rest Jesus is speaking of simply read the next verse. Keep in mind when this was written it was one continual writing. No chapters and verses.

MATTHEW 12 [1] At that time Jesus went on the sabbath day through the corn; and his disciples were an hungred, and began to pluck the ears of corn, and to eat. [2] But when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto him, Behold, thy disciples do that which is not lawful to do upon the sabbath day.

MATTHEW 12 [10] And, behold, there was a man which had his hand withered. And they asked him, saying, Is it lawful to heal on the sabbath days? that they might accuse him. [11] And he said unto them, What man shall there be among you, that shall have one sheep, and if it fall into a pit on the sabbath day, will he not lay hold on it, and lift it out? [12] How much then is a man better than a sheep? Wherefore it is lawful to do well on the sabbath days.

The Jews added over a hundred laws to the original sabbath commandment which made the 4th commandment more of a burden than a blessing. Jesus sets them straight in Matthew 12 on a couple of these added laws to His 4th commandment.

MATTHEW 23 [1] Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, [2] Saying, THE SCRIBES AND THE PHARISEES sit in Moses' seat: [3] All therefore WHATSOEVER THEY BID YOU OBSERVE, THAT OBSERVE AND DO; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not. [4] For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.

Jesus tells us to do what scribes and pharisees say to do. You can bet one of the things they said we are to observe is Gods sabbath day.

No. Jesus bade the JEWS do what those in authority said to do, as long as it was not burdensome or unloving (the reason for the parable of the sheep). We are under a DIFFERENT authority, and Moses' seat is obsolete.

IwreckNsow
12-05-2014, 05:28 PM
So why are you thinking that the 10 commandments are enforced as a legal requirement upon Christians?

Because my Redeemer says so

ISAIAH 48 [17] THUS SAITH THE LORD, THY REDEEMER, THE HOLY ONE OF ISRAEL; I am the LORD thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go.[18] O THAT THOU HADST HEARKENED TO MY COMMANDMENTS! then had thy peace been as a river, and thy righteousness as the waves of the sea:

Bill the Cat
12-05-2014, 05:30 PM
Do you not see that Paul was rebuking the Galatians for becoming interested in (and on the verge of) practicing the laws, especially circumcision?

Do you not see that faith came through Christ and hence there no longer was need of a schoolmaster? I know the passage is a bit odd in that Paul has spoken to gentiles as if they grew up in a Jewish environment -- but Paul was trying to stop these gentiles from taking on the former aspects of the law, since the Galatians had already come to live by faith. As such you are missing the context of Paul's discussion when you try to say "we are under the law UNTIL we are justified by faith." The Galatians were never under the law -- and now were being admonished not to place themselves under it.

Do you not realize that 'condemnation' was coming essentially to those under the law? As such if there was no condemnation, it is because the law did not apply to them.

Did you not realize that the benefits through the promise were antithetical to expecting benefits through the law?

It would behoove you to understand a single letter, such as Galatians, before you seek to make dramatic changes from conventional Christian doctrine.

That's what he gets for teaching himself. A man who represents himself has a fool for a client. Same goes for a man who teaches himself.

Bill the Cat
12-05-2014, 05:32 PM
Because my Redeemer says so

ISAIAH 48 [17] THUS SAITH THE LORD, THY REDEEMER, THE HOLY ONE OF ISRAEL; I am the LORD thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go.[18] O THAT THOU HADST HEARKENED TO MY COMMANDMENTS! then had thy peace been as a river, and thy righteousness as the waves of the sea:

Romans 4:2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.

Galatians 2:16 nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.

Bill the Cat
12-05-2014, 05:34 PM
What law made nothing perfect?

Hebrews 7
19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.
20 And inasmuch as not without an oath he was made priest:
21 (For those priests were made without an oath; but this with an oath by him that said unto him, The Lord sware and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec:)
22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.
23 And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death:
24 But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.
25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.
26 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;
27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.

Verse 27. Theres the points of the law that made nothing perfect. No more animal sacrificies. No more meat and drink offerings for the forgiveness of sins

HEBREWS 10 [7] Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God. [8] Above when he said, SACRIFICE AND OFFERING AND BURNT OFFERINGS AND OFFERING FOR SIN THOU WOULDEST NOT, NEITHER HADST PLEASURE THEREIN; WHICH ARE OFFERED BY THE LAW; [9] Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. HE TAKETH AWAY THE FIRST, THAT HE MAY ESTABLISH THE SECOND. [10] By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. [11] And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: [12] But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

Out with the old. In with the new

Exactly. And the Decalogue was part of the Old.

Bill the Cat
12-05-2014, 05:35 PM
Hi Mike
Thats actually the only place the saved are goin and Jesus will be there with us. We aint headin for heaven at anytime

John 3:12-13 (KJV)
12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
So, you're a Jehovah's Witness then... :no:

IwreckNsow
12-05-2014, 05:42 PM
The Decalogue is wholly unnecessary for salvation and is in fact obsolete.

Hebrews 8:13 By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.


HEBREWS 8 [8] For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: [9] Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. [10] For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR MIND, AND WRITE THEM IN THEIR HEARTS: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: [11] And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. [12] For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more. [13] In that he saith, A NEW COVENANT, HE HATH MADE THE FIRST OLD. NOW THAT WHICH DECAYETH AND WAXETH OLD IS READY TO VANISH AWAY.

Although we are to try and walk as if Gods law was written in our heart, has the covenant of Hebrews 8 already arrived?

Verse 8- I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
Not a gentile mentioned anywhere. Are you from either house Bill?

Verse 11- Does EVERYONE know the Lord? Not even close. There will come a time.

Verse 13- Hebrews 8 was written AFTER the crucified Christ and the scripture clearly says that the old covenant (10 commandments) is WAXING OLD and GETTING READY to vanish. Aint vanished yet! Yes there are some books that claim the ten are obsolete. In them same books youll find in Hebrews 4 the name of Jesus being change to Joshua for the same reason.

Verse 10- When God writes His commandments in our heart you can bet the ranch we will be keeping them. Yes, even His sabbath. When will God write His laws in our hearts? At the time He does this quote takes place.. " I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people". Its after the gathering of His people to the 1000yr period of rest. THE KINGDOM

EZEKIEL 36 [24] For I will take you from among the heathen, and GATHER YOU OUT OF ALL COUNTRIES, AND WILL BRING YOU INTO YOUR OWN LAND. [25] Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. [26] A NEW HEART also will I give you, and A NEW SPIRIT will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. [27] And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. [28] And ye shall dwell in the land that i gave to your fathers; and YE SHALL BE MY PEOPLE, AND I WILL BE YOUR GOD.

Heres another scripture pointing to when God will do heart surgery on us

DEUT. 30 [4] If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will THE LORD THY GOD GATHER THEE, and from thence will he fetch thee: [5] And the Lord THY GOD WILL BRING THEE INTO THE LAND WHICH THY FATHERS POSSESSED, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers. [6] And the Lord THY GOD WILL CIRCUMCISE THINE HEART, and the heart of thy seed, to love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live. [7] And the Lord thy God will put all these curses upon thine enemies, and on them that hate thee, which persecuted thee. [8] And THOU SHALT RETURN AND OBEY THE VOICE OF THE LORD, AND DO ALL HIS COMMANDMENTS which I command thee this day.

The gathering to the 1000 yr period of rest. Verse 8- Yes.... that would be the 10 commandments. Does that include the sabbath

ISAIAH 66 [22] For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain. [23] And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and FROM ONE SABBATH TO ANOTHER, SHALL ALL FLESH COME TO WORSHIP before me, saith the Lord.

Yeah

IwreckNsow
12-05-2014, 05:46 PM
So, you're a Jehovah's Witness then... :no:

Why you say? Cause i believe the scripture from the book of John?

mikewhitney
12-05-2014, 05:48 PM
Because my Redeemer says so

Originally Posted by mikewhitney

So why are you thinking that the 10 commandments are enforced as a legal requirement upon Christians?

Then by iwreck :

ISAIAH 48 [17] THUS SAITH THE LORD, THY REDEEMER, THE HOLY ONE OF ISRAEL; I am the LORD thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go.[18] O THAT THOU HADST HEARKENED TO MY COMMANDMENTS! then had thy peace been as a river, and thy righteousness as the waves of the sea:

So now you have to prove how 'commandments' means only the 10 commandments within Hebrew and Greek.

Also, the passage you quoted only prophesied what would have happened if Israel had obeyed 'commandments' of God. As we see implied in this passage, the Hebrews had failed to hearken to such commandments. What within this passage indicates the idea is to be applied to Christians?

IwreckNsow
12-05-2014, 05:49 PM
Romans 4:2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.

Galatians 2:16 nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.

You nor anyone else can be justified by keeping the law. We will all fall short. Filthy rags are we.

Bill the Cat
12-05-2014, 05:51 PM
Why you say? Cause i believe the scripture from the book of John?

Because you, like them, believe that no one goes to heaven. I'm sure you have an excuse for Revelation 20 too...

Bill the Cat
12-05-2014, 05:52 PM
You nor anyone else can be justified by keeping the law. We will all fall short. Filthy rags are we.

Then you have answered your own question in the OP:

Must you observe to keep the 10 commandments {including the sabbath} in order to be saved to the kingdom?

IwreckNsow
12-05-2014, 05:57 PM
What within this passage indicates the idea is to be applied to Christians?

Jews are Jews and the gentiles are us

MATT.7 [22] Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?[23] And then will I profess unto them, I NEVER KNEW YOU: DEPART FROM ME, YE THAT WORK INIQUITY.

So who are these people God does not know

JER.16 [19] O LORD, my strength, and my fortress, and my refuge in the day of affliction, THE GENTILES shall come unto thee from the ends of the earth, and shall say, Surely OUR FATHERS HAVE INHERITED LIES, VANITY, AND THINGS WHEREIN THERE IS NO PROFIT.

Day of the Lord. Looks like the “many” Gentiles. No profit! Why no profit?

ISAIAH 48 [17] Thus saith THE LORD, THY REDEEMER, the Holy One of Israel; I AM THE LORD THY GOD WHICH TEACHETH THEE TO PROFIT, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go.[18] O THAT THOU HADST HEARKENED TO MY COMMANDMENTS! then had thy peace been as a river, and thy righteousness as the waves of the sea:

Whose your Redeemer? Profit! The 10 commandments

1JOHN2 [3] AND HEREBY WE DO KNOW THAT WE KNOW HIM, IF WE KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS.[4] He that saith, i know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.[5] But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

Theres the people that know God

IwreckNsow
12-05-2014, 06:01 PM
Then you have answered your own question in the OP:

Must you observe to keep the 10 commandments {including the sabbath} in order to be saved to the kingdom?

Its all about our duty and to whom the free gift of grace is givin

ROMANS 3 [21] But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; [22] Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: [23] FOR ALL HAVE SINNED, AND COME SHORT OF THE GLORY of God; [24] BEING JUSTIFIED FREELY BY HIS GRACE through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: [25] Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; [26] To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. [27] Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. [28] THEREFORE WE CONCLUDE THAT A MAN IS JUSTIFIED BY FAITH WITHOUT THE DEEDS OF THE LAW. [29] Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also: [30] Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith. [31] DO WE THEN MAKE VOID THE LAW THROUGH FAITH? GOD FORBID: yea, we establish the law.

Because we all have broken the 10 commandments, we all have sinned and come up short. So we could never be justified by the keeping of the commandments, but by faith. But do we make void the law (10 commandments) because of that faith? GOD FORBID.

LUKE 17 [5] And the apostles said unto the Lord, INCREASE OUR FAITH. [6] And the Lord said, If ye had faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye might say unto this sycamine tree, Be thou plucked up by the root, and be thou planted in the sea; and it should obey you. [7] But which of you, having a servant plowing or feeding cattle, will say unto him by and by, when he is come from the field, Go and sit down to meat? [8] And will not rather say unto him, Make ready wherewith I may sup, and gird thyself, and serve me, till I have eaten and drunken; and afterward thou shalt eat and drink? [9] DOTH HE THANK THAT SERVANT BECAUSE HE DID THE THINGS THAT WERE COMMANDED HIM? I TROW NOT. [10] So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, WE ARE UNPROFITABLE SERVANTS: WE HAVE DONE THAT WHICH WAS OUR DUTY TO DO.

Verse 9. Some parables are so clear. Even though we have done which was our duty to do and did the things commanded of us, we are still unprofitable servants. Filthy rags. Its only by grace through faith that we are saved. OK, so what is our duty that we must do?

ECCLES. 12 [8] Vanity of vanities, saith the preacher; all is vanity. [9] And moreover, because the preacher was wise, he still taught the people knowledge; yea, he gave good heed, and sought out, and set in order many proverbs. [10] The preacher sought to find out acceptable words: and that which was written was upright, even words of truth. [11] THE WORDS OF THE WISE are as goads, and as nails fastened by the masters of assemblies, which are given from ONE SHEPHERD. [12] And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh. [13] LET US HEAR THE CONCLUSION OF THE WHOLE MATTER: FEAR GOD, AND KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS: FOR THIS IS THE WHOLE DUTY OF MAN. [14] For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

Theres the conclusion of the whole matter. Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.

Bill the Cat
12-05-2014, 06:06 PM
HEBREWS 8 [8] For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: [9] Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. [10] For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR MIND, AND WRITE THEM IN THEIR HEARTS: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: [11] And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. [12] For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more. [13] In that he saith, A NEW COVENANT, HE HATH MADE THE FIRST OLD. NOW THAT WHICH DECAYETH AND WAXETH OLD IS READY TO VANISH AWAY.

Although we are to try and walk as if Gods law was written in our heart, has the covenant of Hebrews 8 already arrived?

Verse 8- I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
Not a gentile mentioned anywhere. Are you from either house Bill?

Yes.

Romans 11:17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree,



Verse 11- Does EVERYONE know the Lord? Not even close. There will come a time.

All of His people know Him now.



Verse 13- Hebrews 8 was written AFTER the crucified Christ and the scripture clearly says that the old covenant (10 commandments) is WAXING OLD and GETTING READY to vanish.

It ended in 70 AD with the destruction of the Temple - the last remnant of the Old Covenant.


Aint vanished yet!

Yes it has. The Temple is gone.


Yes there are some books that claim the ten are obsolete. In them same books youll find in Hebrews 4 the name of Jesus being change to Joshua for the same reason.

You must be joking. The Greek name for Jesus and Joshua is the exact same thing :lmbo:


Verse 10- When God writes His commandments in our heart you can bet the ranch we will be keeping them.

You are conflating the word "commandments" with the Decalogue. There are over 600 commandments in Torah. The commandments of the New Testament are to love God and love each other.


Yes, even His sabbath.

The NEW Sabbath of God, TODAY!! That's why the writer of Hebrews takes the time to differentiate the seventh day Sabbath with the "better day" of today.


When will God write His laws in our hearts?

When we are saved.


At the time He does this quote takes place.. " I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people". Its after the gathering of His people to the 1000yr period of rest. THE KINGDOM

Nope. It's at our salvation which initiates our rest.



EZEKIEL 36 [24] For I will take you from among the heathen, and GATHER YOU OUT OF ALL COUNTRIES, AND WILL BRING YOU INTO YOUR OWN LAND. [25] Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. [26] A NEW HEART also will I give you, and A NEW SPIRIT will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. [27] And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. [28] And ye shall dwell in the land that i gave to your fathers; and YE SHALL BE MY PEOPLE, AND I WILL BE YOUR GOD.

This refers to the restitution of the Jews under Messiah.


Heres another scripture pointing to when God will do heart surgery on us

DEUT. 30 [4] If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will THE LORD THY GOD GATHER THEE, and from thence will he fetch thee: [5] And the Lord THY GOD WILL BRING THEE INTO THE LAND WHICH THY FATHERS POSSESSED, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers. [6] And the Lord THY GOD WILL CIRCUMCISE THINE HEART, and the heart of thy seed, to love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live. [7] And the Lord thy God will put all these curses upon thine enemies, and on them that hate thee, which persecuted thee. [8] And THOU SHALT RETURN AND OBEY THE VOICE OF THE LORD, AND DO ALL HIS COMMANDMENTS which I command thee this day.

THis is not the same as the Ezekiel verse. It refers to the Jews who exhibit faith.


The gathering to the 1000 yr period of rest. Verse 8- Yes.... that would be the 10 commandments. Does that include the sabbath

ISAIAH 66 [22] For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain. [23] And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and FROM ONE SABBATH TO ANOTHER, SHALL ALL FLESH COME TO WORSHIP before me, saith the Lord.

Yeah
.:rofl: You sure are funny... The new heaven and new earth are AFTER the Millennium when there will neither be day or night, so Sabbath observation will be irrelevant. Every day will be Sabbath, and every day will everyone come to worship Him.

mikewhitney
12-05-2014, 06:06 PM
Jews are Jews and the gentiles are us

MATT.7 [22] Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?[23] And then will I profess unto them, I NEVER KNEW YOU: DEPART FROM ME, YE THAT WORK INIQUITY.

So who are these people God does not know

JER.16 [19] O LORD, my strength, and my fortress, and my refuge in the day of affliction, THE GENTILES shall come unto thee from the ends of the earth, and shall say, Surely OUR FATHERS HAVE INHERITED LIES, VANITY, AND THINGS WHEREIN THERE IS NO PROFIT.

Day of the Lord. Looks like the “many” Gentiles. No profit! Why no profit?

ISAIAH 48 [17] Thus saith THE LORD, THY REDEEMER, the Holy One of Israel; I AM THE LORD THY GOD WHICH TEACHETH THEE TO PROFIT, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go.[18] O THAT THOU HADST HEARKENED TO MY COMMANDMENTS! then had thy peace been as a river, and thy righteousness as the waves of the sea:

Whose your Redeemer? Profit! The 10 commandments

1JOHN2 [3] AND HEREBY WE DO KNOW THAT WE KNOW HIM, IF WE KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS.[4] He that saith, i know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.[5] But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

Theres the people that know God

I don't see how any of these address my question.
At best you are triggering off the word 'profit' between Jer 16:19 and Isa 48:17. The use of the word 'profit' might convey a shared meaning. However you failed to show that Isa 48:17-18 had anything to say to gentiles. Again there was nothing to connection Isa 48:17-18 with the 10 commandments specifically. You have to find more basis to establish your theory than a connection between two verses on the word 'profit.'

Bill the Cat
12-05-2014, 06:08 PM
Jews are Jews and the gentiles are us

Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is [a]neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

IwreckNsow
12-05-2014, 06:11 PM
Because you, like them, believe that no one goes to heaven. I'm sure you have an excuse for Revelation 20 too...

Revelation 20 is talkin bout the kingdom Bill. Itll be on earth in Jerusalem

ZECHARIAH 8 [1] Again the word of the LORD of hosts came to me, saying, [2] Thus saith the LORD of hosts; I was jealous for Zion with great jealousy, and I was jealous for her with great fury. [3] Thus saith the LORD; I AM RETURNED UNTO ZION, AND WILL DWELL IN THE MIDST OF JERUSALEM: and Jerusalem shall be called a city of truth; and the mountain of the LORD of hosts THE HOLY MOUNTAIN. [4] Thus saith the LORD of hosts; There shall yet old men and old women dwell in the streets of Jerusalem, and every man with his staff in his hand for very age. [5] And the streets of the city shall be full of boys and girls playing in the streets thereof. [6] Thus saith the LORD of hosts; If it be marvellous in the eyes of the remnant of this people in these days, should it also be marvellous in mine eyes? saith the LORD of hosts. [7] Thus saith the LORD of hosts; Behold, I will save my people from the east country, and from the west country; [8] And I WILL BRING THEM, and they shall dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God, in truth and in righteousness.

I love verse 7 and 8. Hes bringing us there with him. Itll be done in the twinkling of an eye.

IwreckNsow
12-05-2014, 06:12 PM
Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is [a]neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

Amen

IwreckNsow
12-05-2014, 06:24 PM
You are conflating the word "commandments" with the Decalogue. There are over 600 commandments in Torah. The commandments of the New Testament are to love God and love each other.



Yeah, i didnt do the counting but someone did. Must have been bored. Anyways he counted 1050 new testament commands.

IwreckNsow
12-05-2014, 06:27 PM
The early Christians were actually givin many warnings about the bad guys and what they would do. The warnings are all around the new testament.

1 PETER 5 [8] Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a ROARING LION, walketh about, SEEKING WHOM HE MAY DEVOUR:

ROARING LIONS! The bad guys

MATT.7 [14] Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.[15] Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are RAVENING WOLVES.

FALSE PROPHETS! They are RAVENING WOLVES. “The many” will follow these false prophets and but a few will take the way of life.

ACTS 20 [29] For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous WOLVES ENTER IN among you, not sparing the flock.[30] Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, TO DRAW AWAY DISCIPLES after them.

The GRIEVOUS WOLVES been hangin round from the beginning

EPH.4 [17] This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth WALK NOT AS OTHER GENTILES walk, in the VANITY of their mind,[18] Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:[19] Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all UNCLEANNESS with GREEDINESS.

All these warnings from the new testament are found in one scripture. The Day of the Lord scriptures are so great. Day of the Lord scriptures do apply to christians (those who believe that Jesus came) and these scriptures will come to pass. To see what these ROARING LIONS and RAVENOUS WOLVES have done, simply read and believe the Word.

EZEK.22 [23] And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,[24] Son of man, say unto her, Thou art the land that is not cleansed, nor rained upon in the day of indignation.[25] There is A CONSPIRACY OF HER PROPHETS in the midst thereof, like a ROARING LION ravening the prey; THEY HAVE DEVOURED SOULS; they have taken the treasure and precious things; they have made her many widows in the midst thereof.[26] HER PRIESTS HAVE VIOLATED MY LAW, and have profaned mine holy things: they have put no difference between the holy and profane, neither have they shewed difference between the UNCLEAN AND THE CLEAN, and HAVE HID THEIR EYES FROM MY SABBATHS, and I am profaned among them.[27] Her princes in the midst thereof are like WOLVES RAVENING THE PREY, to shed blood, and to destroy souls, to get DISHONEST GAIN.[28] And her prophets have daubed them with untempered morter, SEEING VANITY, and divining lies unto them, saying, Thus saith the Lord GOD, when the LORD hath not spoken

A conspiracy of the prophets. HID THEIR EYES FROM MY SABBATHS!

Bill the Cat
12-05-2014, 06:34 PM
Revelation 20 is talkin bout the kingdom Bill. Itll be on earth in Jerusalem

No it isn't. It is in heaven.

Rev 4:1 After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven, and the first voice which I had heard, like the sound of a trumpet speaking with me, said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after these things.”
Rev 4:2 Immediately I was [a]in the Spirit; and behold, a throne was standing in heaven, and One sitting on the throne.
Rev 4:3 And He who was sitting was like a jasper stone and a sardius in appearance; and there was a [b]rainbow around the throne, like an emerald in appearance. Rev 4:4 Around the throne were twenty-four thrones; and upon the thrones I saw twenty-four elders sitting, clothed in white garments, and golden crowns on their heads.

Revelation 7:9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands;

Throne in heaven... check
Christ in heaven... check
People in heaven... check

Bill the Cat
12-05-2014, 06:35 PM
The early Christians were actually givin many warnings about the bad guys and what they would do. The warnings are all around the new testament.

1 PETER 5 [8] Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a ROARING LION, walketh about, SEEKING WHOM HE MAY DEVOUR:

ROARING LIONS! The bad guys

MATT.7 [14] Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.[15] Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are RAVENING WOLVES.

FALSE PROPHETS! They are RAVENING WOLVES. “The many” will follow these false prophets and but a few will take the way of life.

ACTS 20 [29] For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous WOLVES ENTER IN among you, not sparing the flock.[30] Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, TO DRAW AWAY DISCIPLES after them.

The GRIEVOUS WOLVES been hangin round from the beginning

EPH.4 [17] This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth WALK NOT AS OTHER GENTILES walk, in the VANITY of their mind,[18] Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:[19] Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all UNCLEANNESS with GREEDINESS.

All these warnings from the new testament are found in one scripture. The Day of the Lord scriptures are so great. Day of the Lord scriptures do apply to christians (those who believe that Jesus came) and these scriptures will come to pass. To see what these ROARING LIONS and RAVENOUS WOLVES have done, simply read and believe the Word.

EZEK.22 [23] And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,[24] Son of man, say unto her, Thou art the land that is not cleansed, nor rained upon in the day of indignation.[25] There is A CONSPIRACY OF HER PROPHETS in the midst thereof, like a ROARING LION ravening the prey; THEY HAVE DEVOURED SOULS; they have taken the treasure and precious things; they have made her many widows in the midst thereof.[26] HER PRIESTS HAVE VIOLATED MY LAW, and have profaned mine holy things: they have put no difference between the holy and profane, neither have they shewed difference between the UNCLEAN AND THE CLEAN, and HAVE HID THEIR EYES FROM MY SABBATHS, and I am profaned among them.[27] Her princes in the midst thereof are like WOLVES RAVENING THE PREY, to shed blood, and to destroy souls, to get DISHONEST GAIN.[28] And her prophets have daubed them with untempered morter, SEEING VANITY, and divining lies unto them, saying, Thus saith the Lord GOD, when the LORD hath not spoken

A conspiracy of the prophets. HID THEIR EYES FROM MY SABBATHS!

You love equivocating based on English words, don't you? :duh:

IwreckNsow
12-05-2014, 07:15 PM
Revelation 7:9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands;

People in heaven... check

Nope

1COR.15[50] Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.[51] Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,[52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and WE SHALL BE CHANGED.[53] For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.[54] So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP IN VICTORY.

At the 1Cor15 event “death is swallowed up in victory”. It happens only once.

ISAIAH 25 [8] HE WILL SWALLOW UP DEATH IN VICTORY; and the Lord GOD will WIPE AWAY TEARS from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.[9] And it shall be said IN THAT DAY, Lo, this is our God; we have waited for him, and he will save us: this is the LORD; we have waited for him, we will be glad and rejoice in his salvation.

In above scripture "death is swallowed up in victory". Both scriptures, speaking of same event. But in Isaiah 25 you also find that at that time “God shall wipe away all tears”. This to will happen but once.

REVELATION 21 [1] And I saw a NEW HEAVEN AND A NEW EARTH: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.[2]And I John saw the holy city, NEW JERUSALEM, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.[3]And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, BEHOLD, THE TABERNACLE OF GOD IS WITH MEN, AND HE WILL DWELL WITH THEM, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.[4]And God shall WIPE AWAY ALL TEARS from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.[5]And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

No more tears. When? When death is swallowed up in victory {1Cor.15v54} and at the same time Jesus dwells with man in the new Jerusalem {the 1000yr period of rest}

REVELATION 7 [9] After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

Bill, you make the claim that the great multitude is in heaven. Keep readin

REVELATION 7 [13]And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?[14]And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.[15]Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: AND HE THAT SITTETH ON THE THRONE SHALL DWELL AMONG THEM.[16]They shall hunger no more, nei-ther thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.[17]For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall WIPE AWAY ALL TEARS from their eyes.

No more tears. No one will be raptured off to heaven. When we are changed in the twinkling of an eye, we meet the Lord in the air and its off to the kingdom rest with Jesus. So now we know where we are going at the so called “rapture” event.

Pentecost
12-06-2014, 09:57 AM
IwreckNsow, you are a confusing person. You say that we are saved by faith. We all agree. Then you say we must keep the law. For what purpose? To be justified? There are Christian organizations that say this but have a different definition of "commandments" than you. To be sanctified? There are Christian organizations that say this with a different definition of "commandments" than you. Merely to obey? Again, the question is which commandments. Another reason? I think you're saying we must keep the 10 commandments and NT rules but not other OT mitzvot? Is that correct?

IwreckNsow
12-06-2014, 11:31 AM
IwreckNsow, you are a confusing person. You say that we are saved by faith. We all agree. Then you say we must keep the law. For what purpose? To be justified? There are Christian organizations that say this but have a different definition of "commandments" than you. To be sanctified?

Hi Pentecost. When i first started studying the Word i kinda did it backwards. I went to Day of the Lord scriptures to see what they were saying knowing they will come to pass and what they are saying is what will be. You asked the question why should i keep the law? To be sanctified?

GENESIS 2 [1] Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. [2] And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. [3] And GOD BLESSED THE SEVENTH DAY, AND SANCTIFIED IT: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

EZEKIEL 20 [12] Moreover also I GAVE THEM MY SABBATHS, TO BE A SIGN between me and them, that they might know THAT I AM THE LORD THAT SANCTIFY THEM.

The sabbath is a sign between God and his people that the “Lord does sanctify them”.

ISAIAH 66 [15] For, behold, the LORD will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.[16] For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many.[17] THEY THAT SANCTIFY THEMSELVES, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one tree in the midst, EATING SWINE'S FLESH, and the abomination, and the mouse, SHALL BE CONSUMED together, saith the LORD.

I just love “Day of the Lord” scriptures. No one can claim that the scripture is for ancient Israel, because its yet to be fulfilled. It will be fulfilled when Jesus returns. Anyways, if THE SABBATH IS A SIGN THAT GOD SANCTIFYS YOU. Who are those that “sanctify themselves” Pentecost?

IwreckNsow
12-06-2014, 11:49 AM
It would behoove you to understand a single letter, such as Galatians, before you seek to make dramatic changes from conventional Christian doctrine.

So what you are saying is i should follow the "many" and just keep quiet. Wont do that. Their wont be strength in numbers when HE returns

LUKE 12 [31] But rather seek ye the kingdom of God; and all these things shall be added unto you.[32] FEAR NOT, LITTLE FLOCK; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom.

only a little flock will enter the kingdom {saved}

MATT.7 [13] Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction,and many there be which go in thereat:[14] Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life,and FEW THERE BE THAT FIND IT.

few there be that find it

MATT.7 [21] Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.[22] MANY WILL SAY to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?[23] And then will I profess unto them, I NEVER KNEW YOU: DEPART FROM ME, YE THAT WORK INIQUITY.

In footnotes of the KJB, iniquity equals lawlessness. You can find this in 2 THES. 2 verse 7. And the many have come in the name of JESUS saying we need not keep GODS 10 commandments.

LUKE 13 [23] Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them,[24] Strive to enter in at the strait gate: FOR MANY, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.[25] When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are:[26] Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets.[27] But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.

Jesus himself tells us that “the many” will not enter the Kingdom. And he explains why. They are workers of iniquity. They do not keep Gods law. HIS 10 commandments.

ISAIAH 24 [3] The land shall be utterly emptied, and utterly spoiled: for the LORD hath spoken this word.[4] The earth mourneth and fadeth away, the world languisheth and fadeth away, the haughty people of the earth do languish.[5] The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, BROKEN THE EVERLASTING COVENANT.[6] Therefore hath the curse devoured the earth, and they that dwell therein are desolate: therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, AND FEW MEN LEFT.

Well, here we are. The BOTTOM LINE. The DAY OF THE LORD (when Christ returns) and again the Word says that only a few will be saved to the kingdom.

LEV.24 [8] EVERY SABBATH he shall set it in order before the LORD continually, being taken from the children of Israel by AN EVERLASTING COVENANT.

Is this the everlasting covenant that they broke?

Pentecost
12-06-2014, 11:55 AM
Hi Pentecost. When i first started studying the Word i kinda did it backwards. I went to Day of the Lord scriptures to see what they were saying knowing they will come to pass and what they are saying is what will be.Hi! How are you today? And yeah, the Day of The Lord will be great! :smile:
You asked the question why should i keep the law? To be sanctified?That was one of the reasons I thought you might give. :shrug: since you have renounced historic Christianity and seem to be heterodox I thought I would throw out a bunch of possibilities so that we could get to the same page so to speak so we could then discuss the actual point instead of throwing verses at each other all day.


GENESIS 2 [1] Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. [2] And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. [3] And GOD BLESSED THE SEVENTH DAY, AND SANCTIFIED IT: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made. He sanctified the day of rest fantastic I agree, it does not say he sanctified anyone in this passage though.


EZEKIEL 20 [12] Moreover also I GAVE THEM MY SABBATHS, TO BE A SIGN between me and them, that they might know THAT I AM THE LORD THAT SANCTIFY THEM.

The sabbath is a sign between God and his people that the “Lord does sanctify them”. Indeed, and many other posters in your thread have claimed that today, as in every day, is a Sabbath, and we all rest in Jesus etc. so I guess my question is, do you think you are sanctified by observing the Sabbath? That seems to me to be what you are saying.


ISAIAH 66 [15] For, behold, the LORD will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.[16] For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many.[17] THEY THAT SANCTIFY THEMSELVES, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one tree in the midst, EATING SWINE'S FLESH, and the abomination, and the mouse, SHALL BE CONSUMED together, saith the LORD.

I just love “Day of the Lord” scriptures. No one can claim that the scripture is for ancient Israel, because its yet to be fulfilled. It will be fulfilled when Jesus returns. Anyways, if THE SABBATH IS A SIGN THAT GOD SANCTIFYS YOU. Who are those that “sanctify themselves” Pentecost? I never said God didn't sanctify people, you are being rather rude to someone who isn't attacking you. I am trying to have a conversation and discuss, please read what I say instead of what you think I'm saying. I said that there are people who believe they must do certain things to be sanctified, I asked if you were one of them, there was no condemnation in that question. And of course those who sanctify themselves are hypocrites who claim to be holy.

IwreckNsow
12-06-2014, 12:07 PM
He sanctified the day of rest fantastic I agree, it does not say he sanctified anyone in this passage though.

Indeed, and many other posters in your thread have claimed that today, as in every day, is a Sabbath, and we all rest in Jesus etc. so I guess my question is, do you think you are sanctified by observing the Sabbath? That seems to me to be what you are saying.


What do you believe it means to be sanctified? Ive heard in means to be set apart. Some say it means to holy. Would i be set apart by keeping the sabbath. I suppose. Will i be holy by keeping the sabbath. Figure not on its own. Theres more to it

IwreckNsow
12-06-2014, 12:11 PM
I never said God didn't sanctify people, you are being rather rude to someone who isn't attacking you.

Where do you think i said you said God didnt sanctify people.

Pentecost
12-06-2014, 12:21 PM
What do you believe it means to be sanctified? Ive heard in means to be set apart. Some say it means to holy. Would i be set apart by keeping the sabbath. I suppose. Will i be holy by keeping the sabbath. Figure not on its own. Theres more to it
Fair question! :smile: sanctification is the process of becoming holy, which means to be set apart for God. I think there is more to it than just the Sabbath too, I think that Jesus fulfilled the the OT law, and Paul in various places of Scripture taught against Judaizers, and explained how certain Jewish teachings are meant to be applied for Christians which means that while yes, the 10 commandments help us live according to the Law of Christ, we are not bound by them, and that this New Covenant has changed some things, we can now wear clothes of both linen AND cotton (amazing right?), and similarly the Sabbath is for every day resting in Jesus, we both know He is Lord of the Sabbath. If you disagree, maybe we can discuss it? I know I could be wrong even though I don't think so. I'm sure it's the same for you.

IwreckNsow
12-06-2014, 12:28 PM
I never said God didn't sanctify people, you are being rather rude to someone who isn't attacking you.

Wanna discuss this 1st before anything. You made the claim that i said you said God didnt sanctify people. When did i say this? If i did im wanting to say im sorry. If i didnt....

Pentecost
12-06-2014, 12:42 PM
Wanna discuss this 1st before anything. You made the claim that i said you said God didnt sanctify people. When did i say this? If i did im wanting to say im sorry. If i didnt....
I apologize myself because I didn't see you reply to me in two different posts before I made my own so I only addressed the first. It seemed to me that when you were talking about those “sanctify themselves” you were talking to me as if I said something about it. If that wasn't your intent, please forgive me for reading what I thought you said and not what you said.

IwreckNsow
12-06-2014, 12:47 PM
I apologize myself because I didn't see you reply to me in two different posts before I made my own so I only addressed the first. It seemed to me that when you were talking about those “sanctify themselves” you were talking to me as if I said something about it. If that wasn't your intent, please forgive me for reading what I thought you said and not what you said.

Thats OK. I forgive ya.

Just a little somethin extra to show how great the WORD is! There are only 2 places in the KJV where the words “moreover also” can be found

EZEK.20 [12] MOREOVER ALSO I gave them MY SABBATHS, to be a sign between me and them, that they might know that I am the LORD that sanctify them

ACTS 2 [26] Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; MOREOVER ALSO MY FLESH SHALL REST in hope:

If you will notice in ACTS 2 the WORD says “my flesh shall rest in hope”. Just as GODS 4th commandment tells us to do. You will NOT find any scriptures that say you do not need to keep Gods sabbath day because you are NOW resting in Jesus. You will NOT find any scriptures that say Jesus is our sabbath rest.

Bill the Cat
12-06-2014, 01:12 PM
Nope

1COR.15[50] Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.[51] Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,[52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and WE SHALL BE CHANGED.[53] For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.[54] So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP IN VICTORY.

At the 1Cor15 event “death is swallowed up in victory”. It happens only once.

ISAIAH 25 [8] HE WILL SWALLOW UP DEATH IN VICTORY; and the Lord GOD will WIPE AWAY TEARS from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.[9] And it shall be said IN THAT DAY, Lo, this is our God; we have waited for him, and he will save us: this is the LORD; we have waited for him, we will be glad and rejoice in his salvation.

In above scripture "death is swallowed up in victory". Both scriptures, speaking of same event. But in Isaiah 25 you also find that at that time “God shall wipe away all tears”. This to will happen but once.

REVELATION 21 [1] And I saw a NEW HEAVEN AND A NEW EARTH: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.[2]And I John saw the holy city, NEW JERUSALEM, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.[3]And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, BEHOLD, THE TABERNACLE OF GOD IS WITH MEN, AND HE WILL DWELL WITH THEM, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.[4]And God shall WIPE AWAY ALL TEARS from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.[5]And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

No more tears. When? When death is swallowed up in victory {1Cor.15v54} and at the same time Jesus dwells with man in the new Jerusalem {the 1000yr period of rest}

REVELATION 7 [9] After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

Bill, you make the claim that the great multitude is in heaven. Keep readin

REVELATION 7 [13]And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?[14]And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.[15]Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: AND HE THAT SITTETH ON THE THRONE SHALL DWELL AMONG THEM.[16]They shall hunger no more, nei-ther thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.[17]For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall WIPE AWAY ALL TEARS from their eyes.

No more tears. No one will be raptured off to heaven. When we are changed in the twinkling of an eye, we meet the Lord in the air and its off to the kingdom rest with Jesus. So now we know where we are going at the so called “rapture” event.
You consistently isolate one or two scriptures I post and ignore everything else I post. That's lazy and sloppy. I cited EXACTLY where the throne was.

Rev 4:2 Immediately I was in the Spirit; and behold, a throne was standing in heaven,

Your post is refuted by scripture itself.

Bill the Cat
12-06-2014, 01:18 PM
If you will notice in ACTS 2 the WORD says “my flesh shall rest in hope”. Just as GODS 4th commandment tells us to do. You will NOT find any scriptures that say you do not need to keep Gods sabbath day because you are NOW resting in Jesus. You will NOT find any scriptures that say Jesus is our sabbath rest.

Yes you will. I cited them already. So, dance fella, DANCE!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qQPDt_nJJh0

IwreckNsow
12-06-2014, 01:45 PM
You consistently isolate one or two scriptures I post and ignore everything else I post. That's lazy and sloppy. I cited EXACTLY where the throne was.

Rev 4:2 Immediately I was in the Spirit; and behold, a throne was standing in heaven,

Your post is refuted by scripture itself.

And you quoted scriptures i posted about the great multitude and then turned around and posted a scripture about the thone while it was still in heaven

Jeremiah 3:16-17 (KJV)
16 And it shall come to pass, when ye be multiplied and increased in the land, in those days, saith the LORD, they shall say no more, The ark of the covenant of the LORD: neither shall it come to mind: neither shall they remember it; neither shall they visit it; neither shall that be done any more.
17 At that time they shall call Jerusalem the throne of the LORD; and all the nations shall be gathered unto it, to the name of the LORD, to Jerusalem: neither shall they walk any more after the imagination of their evil heart.

That throne is coming to earth. As i said before...to Jerusalem

Pentecost
12-06-2014, 01:46 PM
Thats OK. I forgive ya.

Just a little somethin extra to show how great the WORD is! There are only 2 places in the KJV where the words “moreover also” can be found

EZEK.20 [12] MOREOVER ALSO I gave them MY SABBATHS, to be a sign between me and them, that they might know that I am the LORD that sanctify them Did you read the context though? That chapter is Ezekial prophesying for God that Israel is in rebellion and lists things they've done wrong in the face of His righteousness. I don't think it is reasonable to try to apply that verse to Christiand to say that we should follow the Sabbath because we are not Israel in rebellion and He was talking about how the Sabbath was for them, it's the same silly mistake that people make when they take Jeremiah 29:11 and apply it to their own situation.


ACTS 2 [26] Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; MOREOVER ALSO MY FLESH SHALL REST in hope:

If you will notice in ACTS 2 the WORD says “my flesh shall rest in hope”. Just as GODS 4th commandment tells us to do. You will NOT find any scriptures that say you do not need to keep Gods sabbath day because you are NOW resting in Jesus. You will NOT find any scriptures that say Jesus is our sabbath rest. Again, context is everything. That was a sermon by Peter where he was quoting King David as a prophet, and Peter explains that David was talking about Jesus being the one who's flesh was not corrupted, see vs 31. I taught a small group just this past Tuesday on the topic of how to read Scripture.

Matthew 11:28 shows that Jesus is our rest.
Romans 14 talks about some Christians consider some days more special than others but Paul simply says to paraphrase "to each his own" and to not make stumbling blocks for each other, clearly he does not think the Sabbath is important or he would make everyone obey it.
Acts 15 and Hebrews 8 makes explicit the release from the law of Moses (which is the first time it was a commanded of a human)
Hebrews 4 can be understood in one of two ways about the Sabbath, 1. Christians can currently rest in The Lord. And 2. Christians will be able to rest completely in The Lord in the future. As far as I can tell both are true.

Does Scripture consistently tie Jesus to the "Sabbath rest?" Not that I've seen in those words, but He is Lord of the Sabbath, and we can rest in Him, and it makes sense.

Bill the Cat
12-06-2014, 01:54 PM
And you quoted scriptures i posted about the great multitude and then turned around and posted a scripture about the thone while it was still in heaven

Jeremiah 3:16-17 (KJV)
16 And it shall come to pass, when ye be multiplied and increased in the land, in those days, saith the LORD, they shall say no more, The ark of the covenant of the LORD: neither shall it come to mind: neither shall they remember it; neither shall they visit it; neither shall that be done any more.
17 At that time they shall call Jerusalem the throne of the LORD; and all the nations shall be gathered unto it, to the name of the LORD, to Jerusalem: neither shall they walk any more after the imagination of their evil heart.

That throne is coming to earth. As i said before...to Jerusalem

The throne was in heaven in Rev 4. The 1000 years doesn't begin until Rev 20. And last I checked, Rev 7 comes before Rev 20. So, dance again, partner!

3020

IwreckNsow
12-06-2014, 02:11 PM
The throne was in heaven in Rev 4. The 1000 years doesn't begin until Rev 20. And last I checked, Rev 7 comes before Rev 20. So, dance again, partner!

3020

Do you really believe that the book of Revelation is in chronilogical order? Yikes

IwreckNsow
12-06-2014, 02:21 PM
Acts 15 and Hebrews 8 makes explicit the release from the law of Moses (which is the first time it was a commanded of a human)


Hi Pentecost, thought ya left. So you say Acts 15 releases us from the law. Lets look at it

ACTS 15 [17] That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things. [18] Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world. [19] Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among THE GENTILES are turned to God: [20] But that we write unto them, that THEY ABSTAIN FROM POLLUTIONS OF IDOLS, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood. [21] For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

ACTS 15 as a whole was speaking as to whether gentiles needed to be circumcized or not.

ACTS 15 [4] And when they were come to Jerusalem, they were received of the church, and of the apostles and elders, and they declared all things that God had done with them. [5] But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That IT WAS NEEDFUL TO CIRCUMCISE THEM, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.

ACTS 15 [24] Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, YE MUST BE CIRCUMCISED, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:

Nothing to do with the 10 commandments. So lets look into what pollution of idols {V 20} is all about. Its there we find that we are to be keeping Gods sabbath.

LEVITICUS 19 [3] Ye shall fear every man his mother, and his father, and KEEP MY SABBATHS: I am the Lord your God. [4] TURN YE NOT UNTO IDOLS, NOR MAKE TO YOURSELVES MOLTEN GODS: I am the Lord your God.

LEVITICUS 26 [1]Ye shall MAKE YOU NO IDOLS NOR GRAVEN IMAGE, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the Lord your God. [2] YE SHALL KEEP MY SABBATHS, and reverence my sanctuary: I am the Lord.

EZEKIEL 20 [16]Because they despised my judgments, and walked not in my statutes, BUT POLLUTED MY SABBATHS: FOR THEIR HEART WENT AFTER THEIR IDOLS.

I don’t know what the connection might be as to why graven images and idols are a sign that you don’t keep Gods sabbath but if the WORD says so I believe it. We could have a debate on what an idol is but that would go nowhere but in circles. Does your church have any standing images? I know the churches that do keep the sabbath don’t have any standing images or crosses. Well, least the ones I know.

IwreckNsow
12-06-2014, 02:27 PM
Matthew 11:28 shows that Jesus is our rest.


MATTHEW 11 [27] All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him. [28] Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. [29] Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. [30] For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

In order to find out what rest Jesus is speaking of simply read the very next verse. Keep in mind when this was written it was one continual writing. No chapters and verses.

MATTHEW 12 [1] At that time Jesus went on the sabbath day through the corn; and his disciples were an hungred, and began to pluck the ears of corn, and to eat. [2] But when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto him, Behold, thy disciples do that which is not lawful to do upon the sabbath day.

Its His sabbath day rest

IwreckNsow
12-06-2014, 02:47 PM
the Sabbath is for every day resting in Jesus, we both know He is Lord of the Sabbath. If you disagree, maybe we can discuss it?

Well Pentecost i know that Jesus is Lord of the sabbath. But everyday is a sabbath? Thats not what His sabbath covenant says.

EXODUS 20 [10] But THE SEVENTH DAY IS THE SABBATH of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: [11] FOR IN SIX DAYS THE LORD MADE HEAVEN AND EARTH, the sea, and all that in them is, AND RESTED THE SEVENTH DAY: WHEREFORE THE LORD BLESSED THE SABBATH DAY, AND HALLOWED IT.

Its on the 7th day

Psalm 89:30-34 (KJV)
30 If his children forsake my law, and walk not in my judgments;
31 If they break my statutes, and keep not my commandments;
32 Then will I visit their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with stripes.
33 Nevertheless my lovingkindness will I not utterly take from him, nor suffer my faithfulness to fail.
34 My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips.

And it hasnt been altered nor changed

IwreckNsow
12-06-2014, 02:58 PM
Acts 15 and Hebrews 8 makes explicit the release from the law of Moses (which is the first time it was a commanded of a human)


HEBREWS 8 [8] For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: [9] Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. [10] For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR MIND, AND WRITE THEM IN THEIR HEARTS: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: [11] And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. [12] For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more. [13] In that he saith, A NEW COVENANT, HE HATH MADE THE FIRST OLD. NOW THAT WHICH DECAYETH AND WAXETH OLD IS READY TO VANISH AWAY.

Pentecost, you believe the covenant of Hebrews 8 is already here?

Verse 8- I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
Not a gentile mentioned anywhere. Are you from either house? Which tribe?

Verse 11- Does EVERYONE know the Lord? Not even close. There will come a time when all on earth will know the Lord but surely you cant believe that everyone knows the Lord at this point in time

Verse 13- Hebrews 8 was written AFTER the crucified Christ and the scripture clearly says that the old covenant (10 commandments) is WAXING OLD and GETTING READY to vanish. Aint vanished yet! Yes there are some books that claim the ten are obsolete. But thats only found in denominatioal books that wish to make Gods law void

Verse 10- When God writes His commandments in our heart you can bet the ranch we will be keeping them. Yes, even His sabbath. When will God write His laws in our hearts? At the time He does this quote takes place.. " I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people". Its after the gathering of His people to the 1000yr period of rest.

EZEKIEL 36 [24] For I will take you from among the heathen, and GATHER YOU OUT OF ALL COUNTRIES, AND WILL BRING YOU INTO YOUR OWN LAND. [25] Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. [26] A NEW HEART also will I give you, and A NEW SPIRIT will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. [27] And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. [28] And ye shall dwell in the land that i gave to your fathers; and YE SHALL BE MY PEOPLE, AND I WILL BE YOUR GOD.

Heres another scripture pointing to when God will do heart surgery on us

DEUT. 30 [4] If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will THE LORD THY GOD GATHER THEE, and from thence will he fetch thee: [5] And the Lord THY GOD WILL BRING THEE INTO THE LAND WHICH THY FATHERS POSSESSED, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers. [6] And the Lord THY GOD WILL CIRCUMCISE THINE HEART, and the heart of thy seed, to love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live. [7] And the Lord thy God will put all these curses upon thine enemies, and on them that hate thee, which persecuted thee. [8] And THOU SHALT RETURN AND OBEY THE VOICE OF THE LORD, AND DO ALL HIS COMMANDMENTS which I command thee this day.

The gathering to the 1000 yr period of rest. Verse 8- Yes.... that would be the 10 commandments. Does that include the sabbath

ISAIAH 66 [22] For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain. [23] And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and FROM ONE SABBATH TO ANOTHER, SHALL ALL FLESH COME TO WORSHIP before me, saith the Lord.

sure does

Pentecost
12-06-2014, 03:07 PM
Most conversations on Forums are not rapid fire back and forths, I check a couple times a day for those threads I enjoy posting, or reading and otherwise look and new ones if they appear.

I cannot reply to you across four posts. If you are speaking to me make it one large post. I am sorry if this seems onerous for you, and as interested as I am in conversing with you, I absolutely refuse to in this format. I am typing on a phone (no computer at home) I'll be back tomorrow, if you follow common forum decorum and make it so you aren't at least quadruple posting, I'll give you my reply, otherwise I hope you have a fruitful discussion.

God bless you.

Bill the Cat
12-06-2014, 05:11 PM
Do you really believe that the book of Revelation is in chronilogical order? Yikes

Rev 7 is chronologically before Rev 20.

Sparko
12-08-2014, 05:39 AM
IwreckNsow,

1. Do you believe we are saved by faith alone and not by works or keeping the law (including the 10 commandments)?

2. Or do you believe that we must keep the 10 commandments also or we are not saved?

I am asking in an official capacity as an owner of this site.

If you do not believe #1, you need to edit your profile and change your religion to unorthdox. It is primarily so our moderators can know where you are allowed to post and not. We have some areas that are for orthodox Christians only.

Thank you.

37818
12-15-2014, 12:07 PM
". . . Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. . . . " -- Romans 3:19.

". . . For Christ the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth. . . . " -- Romans 10:4.

". . . I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness [come] by the law, then Christ is dead in vain. " -- [I]Galatians 2:21.

" . . . Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine; According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust." -- 1 Timothy 2:9-11.

footwasher
12-16-2014, 09:29 AM
http://ntwrightpage.com/Wright_New_Perspectives.htmI

Quote
I am fascinated by the way in which some of those most conscious of their reformation heritage shy away from Paul�s clear statements about future judgment according to works. It is not often enough remarked upon, for instance, that in the Thessalonian letters, and in Philippians, he looks ahead to the coming day of judgment and sees God�s favourable verdict not on the basis of the merits and death of Christ, not because like Lord Hailsham he simply casts himself on the mercy of the judge, but on the basis of his apostolic work. �What is our hope and joy and crown of boasting before our Lord Jesus Christ at his royal appearing? Is it not you? For you are our glory and our joy.� (1 Thess. 3.19f.; cp. Phil. 2.16f.) I suspect that if you or I were to say such a thing, we could expect a swift rebuke of �nothing in my hand I bring, simply to thy cross I cling�. The fact that Paul does not feel obliged at every point to say this shows, I think, that he is not as concerned as we are about the danger of speaking of the things he himself has done � though sometimes, to be sure, he adds a rider, which proves my point, that it is not his own energy but that which God gives and inspires within him (1 Cor. 15.10; Col. 1.29). But he is still clear that the things he does in the present, by moral and physical effort, will count to his credit on the last day, precisely because they are the effective signs that the Spirit of the living Christ has been at work in him. We are embarrassed about saying this kind of thing; Paul clearly is not. What on earth can have happened to a sola scriptura theology that it should find itself forced to screen out such emphatic, indeed celebratory, statements?



". . . Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. . . . " -- Romans 3:19.

". . . For Christ the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth. . . . " -- Romans 10:4.

". . . I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness [come] by the law, then Christ is dead in vain. " -- [I]Galatians 2:21.

" . . . Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine; According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust." -- 1 Timothy 2:9-11.

Bill the Cat
12-16-2014, 09:49 AM
http://ntwrightpage.com/Wright_New_Perspectives.htmI

Quote
I am fascinated by the way in which some of those most conscious of their reformation heritage shy away from Paul�s clear statements about future judgment according to works. It is not often enough remarked upon, for instance, that in the Thessalonian letters, and in Philippians, he looks ahead to the coming day of judgment and sees God�s favourable verdict not on the basis of the merits and death of Christ, not because like Lord Hailsham he simply casts himself on the mercy of the judge, but on the basis of his apostolic work. �What is our hope and joy and crown of boasting before our Lord Jesus Christ at his royal appearing? Is it not you? For you are our glory and our joy.� (1 Thess. 3.19f.; cp. Phil. 2.16f.) I suspect that if you or I were to say such a thing, we could expect a swift rebuke of �nothing in my hand I bring, simply to thy cross I cling�. The fact that Paul does not feel obliged at every point to say this shows, I think, that he is not as concerned as we are about the danger of speaking of the things he himself has done � though sometimes, to be sure, he adds a rider, which proves my point, that it is not his own energy but that which God gives and inspires within him (1 Cor. 15.10; Col. 1.29). But he is still clear that the things he does in the present, by moral and physical effort, will count to his credit on the last day, precisely because they are the effective signs that the Spirit of the living Christ has been at work in him. We are embarrassed about saying this kind of thing; Paul clearly is not. What on earth can have happened to a sola scriptura theology that it should find itself forced to screen out such emphatic, indeed celebratory, statements?

IMHO, Wright is not meaning that these things are what saves you, but what is credited to your account as rewards in the last day. That refers to the crowns that will be given to believers (although they are only metaphorical).

Truthseeker
12-16-2014, 03:05 PM
http://ntwrightpage.com/Wright_New_Perspectives.htmIThat link does not work because of the last character ("I"). Delete it (Matthew 5:29) and try again.



you need a different program to compose your posts, like Notepad.

footwasher
12-16-2014, 10:23 PM
IMHO, Wright is not meaning that these things are what saves you, but what is credited to your account as rewards in the last day. That refers to the crowns that will be given to believers (although they are only metaphorical).



Matthew 7:15Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves. 16“You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thornbushes nor figs from thistles, are they? 17“So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. 18“A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit.19“Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20“So then, you will know them by their fruits.
21“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. 22“Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ 23“And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME,YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’

It seems the false prophets believe in Jesus for eternal life (they call Jesus “Lord” and no one can call Him Lord except by the Holy Spirit; in addition, they honor Christ by giving Him credit for the miracles). If we follow the doctrine of “rewards”, it seems they are coming forward for rewards over and above the granting of eternal life. Here’s where the doctrine of rewards falls apart.

The bad branches are thrown into the fire! Verse 19.

Bill the Cat
12-17-2014, 06:30 AM
Matthew 7:15Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves. 16“You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thornbushes nor figs from thistles, are they? 17“So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. 18“A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit.19“Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20“So then, you will know them by their fruits.
21“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. 22“Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ 23“And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME,YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’

It seems the false prophets believe in Jesus for eternal life (they call Jesus “Lord” and no one can call Him Lord except by the Holy Spirit; in addition, they honor Christ by giving Him credit for the miracles). If we follow the doctrine of “rewards”, it seems they are coming forward for rewards over and above the granting of eternal life. Here’s where the doctrine of rewards falls apart.

The bad branches are thrown into the fire! Verse 19.

False prophets are not Jesus' sheep, therefore their assent is strictly selfishness, not salvific. They may LOOK like Jesus' sheep, wearing the outward appearance of a Christian, but inward (where salvation occurs) they are far from it.

2 Peter 2:1 But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.

And remember what Jesus said about good trees and bad trees:

Luke 6:45 The good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth what is good; and the evil man out of the evil treasure brings forth what is evil; for his mouth speaks from that which fills his heart.

Were the false prophets saved, they would have brought forth good things, but Jesus made it clear that what they claimed to do in His name were nothing of the sort. He says He NEVER knew them. Just claiming the name of Jesus is powerless without being in Him (see the Seven sons of Sceva).

footwasher
12-17-2014, 02:34 PM
One would expect that Free Grace theology that supports the teaching that a man saved by faith alone without having to do good works to be saved, but for rewards, would not require good works for a favorable outcome. In the passage you quoted, the unfruitful believer is compared to a wrecked house! Doesn't sound like favorable judgement. Salvation is supposed to be a joyful event!


Luke 6:45“The good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth what is good; and the evil man out of the evil treasure brings forth what is evil; for his mouth speaks from that which fills his heart.

46“Why do you call Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say? 47“Everyone who comes to Me and hears My words and acts on them, I will show you whom he is like: 48he is like a man building a house, who dug deep and laid a foundation on the rock; and when a flood occurred, the torrent burst against that house and could not shake it, because it had been well built. 49“But the one who has heard and has not acted accordingly, is like a man who built a house on the ground without any foundation; and the torrent burst against it and immediately it collapsed, and the ruin of that house was great.

Also, the false prophets do not deny their Master.

They do what Jesus commands, but it seems they've not done enough "works"...


False prophets are not Jesus' sheep, therefore their assent is strictly selfishness, not salvific. They may LOOK like Jesus' sheep, wearing the outward appearance of a Christian, but inward (where salvation occurs) they are far from it.

2 Peter 2:1 But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.

And remember what Jesus said about good trees and bad trees:

Luke 6:45 The good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth what is good; and the evil man out of the evil treasure brings forth what is evil; for his mouth speaks from that which fills his heart.

Were the false prophets saved, they would have brought forth good things, but Jesus made it clear that what they claimed to do in His name were nothing of the sort. He says He NEVER knew them. Just claiming the name of Jesus is powerless without being in Him (see the Seven sons of Sceva).

Pentecost
12-17-2014, 10:47 PM
Footwasher, please excuse me, but in your most recent post you didn't seem very clear, were you saying that Free Gracers are the ones who say works add rewards but not salvation? Salvation by faith alone is affirmed by Arminians and Calvinists, and if you distinguish between salvation and justification potentially Catholics and Orthodox as far as I can tell. The issue with Free Grace is that they don't think works springs from salvation, but it is instead a choice and is inherently antinominian. It seems like you are attacking both the shore and ship and fall into the water :shrug: did I misunderstand your claim?

Bill the Cat
12-18-2014, 08:08 AM
One would expect that Free Grace theology that supports the teaching that a man saved by faith alone without having to do good works to be saved, but for rewards, would not require good works for a favorable outcome. In the passage you quoted, the unfruitful believer is compared to a wrecked house! Doesn't sound like favorable judgement. Salvation is supposed to be a joyful event!


Luke 6:45“The good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth what is good; and the evil man out of the evil treasure brings forth what is evil; for his mouth speaks from that which fills his heart.

46“Why do you call Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say? 47“Everyone who comes to Me and hears My words and acts on them, I will show you whom he is like: 48he is like a man building a house, who dug deep and laid a foundation on the rock; and when a flood occurred, the torrent burst against that house and could not shake it, because it had been well built. 49“But the one who has heard and has not acted accordingly, is like a man who built a house on the ground without any foundation; and the torrent burst against it and immediately it collapsed, and the ruin of that house was great.

Also, the false prophets do not deny their Master.

He isn't their master. He said "I NEVER KNEW YOU".

John 10:14 I am the good shepherd, and I know My own and My own know Me



They do what Jesus commands, but it seems they've not done enough "works"...

They were never his, and their works are insufficient to make them His.

footwasher
12-18-2014, 08:09 AM
http://www.faithalone.org/magazine/y2006/06so1.htm
Two Types of Lordship Salvation: RA

Quote
You can remember the two types with the letters RA, which stands for the element Radium, or for the disease many have, Rheumatoid Arthritis. But in this case it stands for Reformed and Arminian. The type of Lordship Salvation most people are most familiar with is found in the writings of men like John MacArthur, John Piper, and R. C. Sproul. I call this Reformed Lordship Salvation. It is Reformed because these men believe the five points of Calvinism which grew out of theReformation. COP for the Reformed person means this: No one is absolutely sure that he has been chosen by God or that Christ died for him. The only way to be sure you are born again is to persevere until death. Therefore, according to Reformed Lordship Salvation, if at the moment of death you are not persevering, you haven’t lost everlasting life, for that is impossible. Rather, you have simply proved what you thought was the new birth was actually a Satanic deception.

The second type of Lordship Salvation is Arminian. Arminius was a follower of Calvin who thought the system needed to be modified to include free will. So for him, if a person failed to persevere in faith and good works, then he would lose eternal life. Since it was a choice of the free will to receive eternal life from God, it could also be a choice of the free will (through rebellion or sin) to give it back. COP for the Arminian Lordship Salvation person says that if at the moment of death you are not persevering in faith and good works, then you will go to hell because you lost everlasting life at some point along the way. While that may sound like a big difference from Reformed Lordship Salvation, it really isn’t. Whether you lose everlasting life or prove you never had it by failing to persevere, you end up in the lake of fire. The end result of both forms is the same. Commitment, obedience, and perseverance (COP) are required in both systems for a person to ultimately receive everlasting life.


Footwasher, please excuse me, but in your most recent post you didn't seem very clear, were you saying that Free Gracers are the ones who say works add rewards but not salvation? Salvation by faith alone is affirmed by Arminians and Calvinists, and if you distinguish between salvation and justification potentially Catholics and Orthodox as far as I can tell. The issue with Free Grace is that they don't think works springs from salvation, but it is instead a choice and is inherently antinominian. It seems like you are attacking both the shore and ship and fall into the water :shrug: did I misunderstand your claim?

tttt

footwasher
12-18-2014, 08:16 AM
John 15:1“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2“Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit. 3“You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4“Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me. 5“I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing. 6“If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.


Nevertheless, Jesus says those who obey His command are the good builders. All these verses would be reduced to nonsensical if disregarded.

"Knew" has the connotation of union, as Joseph did not know Mary until after Jesus's birth.

To be accepted by Christ necessitates being known by Him. Parallels found in the "abide" passages.


He isn't their master. He said "I NEVER KNEW YOU".

John 10:14 I am the good shepherd, and I know My own and My own know Me




They were never his, and their works are insufficient to make them His.

Bill the Cat
12-18-2014, 08:31 AM
John 15:1“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2“Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit. 3“You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4“Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me. 5“I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing. 6“If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.


Nevertheless, Jesus says those who obey His command are the good builders. All these verses would be reduced to nonsensical if disregarded.

"Knew" has the connotation of union, as Joseph did not know Mary until after Jesus's birth.

To be accepted by Christ necessitates being known by Him. Parallels found in the "abide" passages.

How does this answer my post? They were NEVER in Christ. They were never abiding in Him for them to be cast off and burned.

footwasher
12-18-2014, 08:58 AM
How does this answer my post? They were NEVER in Christ. They were never abiding in Him for them to be cast off and burned.

How can you claim they were never in Christ. A branch can't be cut off unless it was originally attached.

Bill the Cat
12-18-2014, 09:05 AM
How can you claim they were never in Christ. A branch can't be cut off unless it was originally attached.

You are talking about separate things here. Those who did "miracles in His name" were the ones that Jesus said He never knew. One thing at a time. We can discuss apostasy shortly.

footwasher
12-18-2014, 09:27 AM
You are talking about separate things here. Those who did "miracles in His name" were the ones that Jesus said He never knew. One thing at a time. We can discuss apostasy shortly.

You are positing a situation where a person does miracles but has not abided in Christ?

John 14:Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do, he will do also; and greater works than these he will do; because I go to the Father. 13“Whatever you ask in My name, that will I do, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14“If you ask Me anything in My name, I will do it.

John 15:16You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit--fruit that will last--and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you. 17"If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.

Bill the Cat
12-18-2014, 09:35 AM
You are positing a situation where a person does miracles but has not abided in Christ?

Absolutely. Matthew 24:23-24

Matthew 24:23-26New American Standard Bible (NASB)

23 Then if anyone says to you, ‘Behold, here is the Christ,’ or ‘There He is,’ do not believe him.
24 For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect.




John 14:Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do, he will do also; and greater works than these he will do; because I go to the Father. 13“Whatever you ask in My name, that will I do, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14“If you ask Me anything in My name, I will do it.

John 15:16You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit--fruit that will last--and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you.

Emphasis mine. Those in Christ will do the works Christ did because they are His and He knows them. But the false prophets (the ravenous wolves in sheep's clothing) are capable of counterfeit signs and wonders. It is Christ's knowing us that sets us apart from them, not the works that are performed.

footwasher
12-18-2014, 09:38 AM
Absolutely. Matthew 24:23-24

Matthew 24:23-26New American Standard Bible (NASB)

23 Then if anyone says to you, ‘Behold, here is the Christ,’ or ‘There He is,’ do not believe him.
24 For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect.





Emphasis mine. Those in Christ will do the works Christ did because they are His and He knows them. But the false prophets (the ravenous wolves in sheep's clothing) are capable of counterfeit signs and wonders. It is Christ's knowing us that sets us apart from them, not the works that are performed.

You discount the possibility of someone being in Christ, doing great works, but not being "known" by Him?

Bill the Cat
12-18-2014, 09:39 AM
You discount the possibility of someone being in Christ, doing great works, but not being "known" by Him?

Yes.

footwasher
12-18-2014, 09:43 AM
Yes.

Please define "Being in Christ".

Bill the Cat
12-18-2014, 09:52 AM
Please define "Being in Christ".

2 Corinthians 5:17 - Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Romans 8:1 - There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Galatians 2:20 - I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Romans 8:17 - And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

1 John 3:2 - Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Ephesians 2:6 - And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

footwasher
12-18-2014, 10:15 AM
2 Corinthians 5:17 - Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Romans 8:1 - There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Romans 8:17 - And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

Galatians 2:20 - I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Ephesians 2:6 - And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

Would this be through baptism?

Romans 6:4Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.

Galatians 3:27“For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.”


1 John 3:2 - Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Is this a done deal? Is there a situation where this may not be fulfilled?

1 John 2:24As for you, see that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. 25And this is what he promised us—eternal life.

Bill the Cat
12-18-2014, 10:18 AM
2 Corinthians 5:17 - Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Romans 8:1 - There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Romans 8:17 - And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

Galatians 2:20 - I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Ephesians 2:6 - And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

Would this be through baptism?

Romans 6:4Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.

Galatians 3:27“For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.”


1 John 3:2 - Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Is this a done deal? Is there a situation where this may not be fulfilled?

1 John 2:24As for you, see that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. 25And this is what he promised us—eternal life.

You are now getting into apostasy, which is a different subject than never having been known by Christ.

footwasher
12-18-2014, 10:22 AM
You are now getting into apostasy, which is a different subject than never having been known by Christ.

Those "in Christ", aren't they "known by Him" and by your previous stipulation, not liable for rejection at a later date?

Bill the Cat
12-18-2014, 10:34 AM
Those "in Christ", aren't they "known by Him" and by your previous stipulation, not liable for rejection at a later date?

Correct. He will not reject those He knows, but THEY can reject Him in favor of the man of sin, which leads to apostasy. The difference is that those who were never known by Christ were never saved while those who apostatize were, but threw it away.

footwasher
12-18-2014, 10:46 AM
Correct. He will not reject those He knows, but THEY can reject Him in favor of the man of sin, which leads to apostasy. The difference is that those who were never known by Christ were never saved while those who apostatize were, but threw it away.

So why are the false prophets surprised that they were found to be "apostate"? (Matt 7:22)

Bill the Cat
12-18-2014, 10:54 AM
So why are the false prophets surprised that they were found to be "apostate"? (Matt 7:22)

They weren't. They were shocked that they were not Christians to begin with because they thought that they were based solely on the things that they were doing.

footwasher
12-18-2014, 11:00 AM
They weren't. They were shocked that they were not Christians to begin with because they thought that they were based solely on the things that they were doing.

This then is what unfolded:

False prophet is baptised
Is in Christ
Christ knows him
Works miracles
Apostasises (remember, he is in Christ)
Christ un "likes" him...(revokes his "knowing")

Are we good so far?

Pentecost
12-18-2014, 11:04 AM
http://www.faithalone.org/magazine/y2006/06so1.htm
Two Types of Lordship Salvation: RA

Quote
You can remember the two types with the letters RA, which stands for the element Radium, or for the disease many have, Rheumatoid Arthritis. But in this case it stands for Reformed and Arminian. The type of Lordship Salvation most people are most familiar with is found in the writings of men like John MacArthur, John Piper, and R. C. Sproul. I call this Reformed Lordship Salvation. It is Reformed because these men believe the five points of Calvinism which grew out of theReformation. COP for the Reformed person means this: No one is absolutely sure that he has been chosen by God or that Christ died for him. The only way to be sure you are born again is to persevere until death. Therefore, according to Reformed Lordship Salvation, if at the moment of death you are not persevering, you haven’t lost everlasting life, for that is impossible. Rather, you have simply proved what you thought was the new birth was actually a Satanic deception.

The second type of Lordship Salvation is Arminian. Arminius was a follower of Calvin who thought the system needed to be modified to include free will. So for him, if a person failed to persevere in faith and good works, then he would lose eternal life. Since it was a choice of the free will to receive eternal life from God, it could also be a choice of the free will (through rebellion or sin) to give it back. COP for the Arminian Lordship Salvation person says that if at the moment of death you are not persevering in faith and good works, then you will go to hell because you lost everlasting life at some point along the way. While that may sound like a big difference from Reformed Lordship Salvation, it really isn’t. Whether you lose everlasting life or prove you never had it by failing to persevere, you end up in the lake of fire. The end result of both forms is the same. Commitment, obedience, and perseverance (COP) are required in both systems for a person to ultimately receive everlasting life.



tttt

I'm afraid I haven't the slightest clue what "tttt" means. I checked Google and it said "too tipsy to type" and I very highly doubt you meant that. As for as your summation of Lordship Theology, uhm thank you but you are ignoring (don't realize?) the fine points of theology. You as far as I can tell just called everyone but Free Gracers liars about what they actually believe. And I still cannot tell what your soteriology is. If it's Free Grace you didn't answer my criticism, if it's a form of Lordship you seem to have attacked it. I don't get it.

footwasher
12-18-2014, 11:09 AM
Android IS a bit tipsy... often the option to paste disappears until you type something, select it and then try paste by long press on the phone screen. The tttt disappears to the end of the post whilst the pasted material lands in the beginning of the post. By the time you notice, the option to edit has disappeared. Aaaah, First World problems...

Hey I'm attacking Free Grace theology too, specifically the doctrine of "rewards"! Nobody is safe!

Bill the Cat
12-18-2014, 11:34 AM
This then is what unfolded:

False prophet is baptized

No.


Is in Christ

No


Christ knows him

No


Works miracles

Yes


Apostatizes (remember, he is in Christ)

No


Christ un "likes" him...(revokes his "knowing")

No


Are we good so far?

No. You are meshing the two separate scenarios.

Scenario 1) Those who cry Lord, Lord


False prophet believes in false doctrines about Jesus (such as those in 1 John 4:3)
False prophet claims to be a Christian
False prophet unknowingly (in these cases) works miracles through the power of the enemy
False prophet dies
False prophet claims their works were proof of their being a Christian
Jesus says that He never knew them at all


Scenario 2) Those who apostatize

Unbeliever hears the message of salvation and believes
Unbeliever becomes a believer
Believer is now "In Christ" and "known by Christ"
Believer gets deceived by the man of sin (satan)
Believer chooses to reject Christ and follow man of sin
Believer apostatizes
Believer is now an apostate, unable to repent again unto salvation
Christ once knew the apostate, but has been fully and finally rejected by the apostate

footwasher
12-18-2014, 12:17 PM
No. You are meshing the two separate scenarios.

Scenario 1) Those who cry Lord, Lord

False prophet believes in false doctrines about Jesus (such as those in 1 John 4:3)
False prophet claims to be a Christian
False prophet unknowingly (in these cases) works miracles through the power of the enemy
False prophet dies
False prophet claims their works were proof of their being a Christian
Jesus says that He never knew them at all


Scenario 2) Those who apostatize
Unbeliever hears the message of salvation and believes
Unbeliever becomes a believer
Believer is now "In Christ" and "known by Christ"
Believer gets deceived by the man of sin (satan)
Believer chooses to reject Christ and follow man of sin
Believer apostatizes
Believer is now an apostate, unable to repent again unto salvation
Christ once knew the apostate, but has been fully and finally rejected by the apostate



This is what then happened:

Scenario 1) Those who cry Lord, Lord


False prophet believes in false doctrines about Jesus (such as those in 1 John 4:3) was a docetist, believed matter was evil, and therefore Christ was only a spiritual being, but was very likely, baptised (everybody was getting baptised, including Simon the Sorcerer, baptism was in addition to belief in Christ for salvation, making them “in Christ”)
False prophet claims to be a Christian ( I would, following baptism)
False prophet unknowingly (in these cases) works miracles through the power of the enemy (even Judas worked miracles, together with the seventy two)
False prophet dies (nobody dodges THAT bullet)
False prophet claims their works were proof of their being a Christian (understandably so)
Jesus says that He never knew them at all (strange: the false prophets had truckloads of faith, the only quality that people claim to be necessary for salvation and Christ still rejects them… hmmm).

Bill the Cat
12-18-2014, 12:38 PM
I'm having problems following your posts, so if I miss something, please point it out.. Thanks :smile:



Scenario 1) Those who cry Lord, Lord

False prophet believes in false doctrines about Jesus (such as those in 1 John 4:3) was a docetist, believed matter was evil, and therefore Christ was only a spiritual being, but was very likely, baptised (everybody was getting baptised, including Simon the Sorcerer, baptism was in addition to belief in Christ for salvation, making them “in Christ”)

The difference is that what they believed in was not the real Christ, but was one of their own making. So, all they really did was got wet.



False prophet claims to be a Christian ( I would, following baptism)

That's where faith in the true Christ is important. False doctrines about who Jesus is are absolute deal breakers because they turn the object of faith from Jesus to the deceived person's idea of Jesus.


False prophet unknowingly (in these cases) works miracles through the power of the enemy (even Judas worked miracles, together with the seventy two)

I believe Judas was saved and then apostatized.


False prophet dies (nobody dodges THAT bullet)

True


False prophet claims their works were proof of their being a Christian (understandably so)

Because they think that works are what saves them. But this shows that performing miracles in His name does not mean that they were His sheep.


Jesus says that He never knew them at all (strange: the false prophets had truckloads of faith,

Faith in the wrong thing doesn't save any more than works dedicated to the wrong thing does (i.e. Mormons and JWs)


the only quality that people claim to be necessary for salvation and Christ still rejects them… hmmm).


Faith in the true Christ of God is what is necessary, not just faith.

footwasher
12-18-2014, 01:25 PM
I'm having problems following your posts, so if I miss something, please point it out.. Thanks :smile:

No problem, I dont have high expectations of people, so needing to understand correctly isn’t a requirement in my book to have righteousness reputed to them by me.:smile:

The difference is that what they believed in was not the real Christ, but was one of their own making. So, all they really did was got wet.

That's a pretty big ask for salvation, don't you think, to have the right doctrinal knowledge of the nature of the Incarnation?

That's where faith in the true Christ is important. False doctrines about who Jesus is are absolute deal breakers because they turn the object of faith from Jesus to the deceived person's idea of Jesus.

I believe false knowledge of why Jesus came is the real deal breaker.


False prophet unknowingly (in these cases) works miracles through the power of the enemy (even Judas worked miracles, together with the seventy two)

I believe Judas was saved and then apostatized.

The point is that working miracles by false prophets can still be through the power of God and not Beelzebub:

Mark 9:38John said to Him, "Teacher, we saw someone casting out demons in Your name, and we tried to prevent him because he was not following us." 39But Jesus said, "Do not hinder him, for there is no one who will perform a miracle in My name, and be able soon afterward to speak evil of Me.40"For he who is not against us is for us.…


True

One out of six isn’t too shabby...YES!

Because they think that works are what saves them. But this shows that performing miracles in His name does not mean that they were His sheep.

What does save?

Faith in the wrong thing doesn't save any more than works dedicated to the wrong thing does (i.e. Mormons and JWs)

So what does?

Faith in the true Christ of God is what is necessary, not just faith.

But the passage teaches doing the correct works, what Jesus taught, what the Father in who is in Heaven wills, is what tips the scale:

Matthew 7:21“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

24“Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. 26But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. 27The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash.”

'Scusi, gotta run... some real work pending. I'll be back... in a coupla hours.

Bill the Cat
12-18-2014, 04:29 PM
No problem, I dont have high expectations of people, so needing to understand correctly isn’t a requirement in my book to have righteousness reputed to them by me.:smile:

I meant your not using the quote tags.


That's a pretty big ask for salvation, don't you think, to have the right doctrinal knowledge of the nature of the Incarnation?

Not really. Jesus is the eternal Son of God, second member of the Trinity, born of the Virgin Mary as a full human, lived a sinless life, suffered and died under Pontius Pilate at the behest of the Jewish leaders, raised from the dead on the third day, ascended to heaven after 40 days, and will return again to judge the living and the dead. While there are intricacies in each of those clauses, their basic premises are pretty clearly spelled out in scripture. Denying any of them is denying who He is and what He did.


I believe false knowledge of why Jesus came is the real deal breaker.

He came to save us from our sins and to reconcile God and man.



The point is that working miracles by false prophets can still be through the power of God and not Beelzebub:

Mark 9:38John said to Him, "Teacher, we saw someone casting out demons in Your name, and we tried to prevent him because he was not following us." 39But Jesus said, "Do not hinder him, for there is no one who will perform a miracle in My name, and be able soon afterward to speak evil of Me.40"For he who is not against us is for us.…


This isn't a false prophet. It's about a fellow Christian who was not directly under the authority of the 12


What does save?

Faith in the finished work of Jesus Christ as revealed by scripture. Who He is and What He did for us.



But the passage teaches doing the correct works, what Jesus taught, what the Father in who is in Heaven wills, is what tips the scale:

Matthew 7:21“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

24“Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. 26But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. 27The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash.”

You seem to be missing that the reason Jesus gave them as to why their works were not salvific was that He never knew them, not that their works in His name weren't good enough.

Obsidian
12-18-2014, 08:10 PM
In answer to the earlier question about John 15, I think that the "branches" may refer to churches formed by the apostles, rather than to the apostles individually.

Romans 11
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; 18 boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. 19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. 20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: 21 for if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

And I think that this passage is talking about the future apostacy of the Roman church, rather than the apostacy of individual Jews or Romans.

footwasher
12-18-2014, 09:23 PM
This is the will of God, towards entering the kingdom of God as raised in Matt 7:13, the gate that leads to Life being narrow and only few find it:

No one can be a disciple of God without taking up a cross and following Christ

To those who have done so will receive a hundred times that which they have given up in this age and in the age to come eternal life.

Shrewd believers will emulate the practical unbelievers of this world by making friends with those in the kingdom through supporting them.

Believers are taken out of the domain of the world and placed in the domain of the church through baptism.

They are nurtured by drinking from the Rock and the Rock is Christ.

This nurturing is in the form of tests so new believers should not be surprised at the trials they go through because God is showing them that He can be depended on to lead them into mastery of the Promised Land, just as He was able to take them out of the slavery of the world.

Those who are entangled by the lure of their former life, and waste their time by murmuring instead of buying milk without money will fail the test when God calls, and find them not wearing wedding garments, lacking oil in their lamps, putting their hand to the plough share and then turning away, not crossing the Jordan.

Adequate warning is given. Whilst the challenger is far away, we must decide if we have enough faith to take up our cross. No one sets out to battle ill prepared.No one starts building without enough money. If we feel our faith is inadequate to take up the cross, we must ask for terms of peace. Instead of gathering, we can support those who gather, using unrighteous Mammon to make friends. Then we will be welcomed into eternal shelters when our worldly resources run out.

When God calls today, do not be disobedient like the children of Israel, with whom He was not pleased, and swore that they would not enter his rest, and were set up to leave their bones in the desert.

Obsidian
12-18-2014, 10:03 PM
Actually, the gate that leads to life is probably the same thing that Jesus says everyone who asks will receive.

Matthew 7
6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you. 7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: 8 for every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. . . . 13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: 14 because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Revelation 21
21 And the twelve gates were twelve pearls; every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass.

Revelation 22
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

footwasher
12-18-2014, 10:26 PM
What the false prophets failed to do, enter the narrow gate:

Matthew 7: 13“Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. 14“For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.

15“Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves.16“You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they? 17“So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. 18“A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit. 19“Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20“So then, you will know them by their fruits.
21“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. 22“Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ 23“And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNES


What the rich young ruler failed to do:

Matthew 19:3And Jesus said to His disciples, “Truly I say to you, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24“Again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.” 25When the disciples heard this, they were very astonished and said, “Then who can be saved?” 26And looking at them Jesus said to them, “With people this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”

Bill the Cat
12-19-2014, 06:12 AM
In answer to the earlier question about John 15, I think that the "branches" may refer to churches formed by the apostles, rather than to the apostles individually.

Romans 11
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; 18 boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. 19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. 20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: 21 for if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

And I think that this passage is talking about the future apostacy of the Roman church, rather than the apostacy of individual Jews or Romans.

It's talking about the gentiles being not native born Israel, yet being grafted into Christ despite not being the natural lineage of promise. It has nothing to do with Rome

Obsidian
12-19-2014, 06:46 AM
Romans 1
7 to all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Bill the Cat
12-19-2014, 06:51 AM
Romans 1
7 to all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

It's a letter to the church in Rome when Paul was ministering, not the future Roman Catholic church. it was comprised of both Jew and gentile, and this section was speaking to the gentiles who were not natural Jews, but were inheritors of the promise given to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. It has nothing to do with apostasy/

Obsidian
12-19-2014, 07:05 AM
What do you think the branches being broken off refers to — that the Pharisees used to believe in Jesus but then stopped, and that the individual Romans currently believe but may stop? It's referring to groups over time, not individuals.

Bill the Cat
12-19-2014, 07:11 AM
What do you think the branches being broken off refers to

The natural branches being broken shows individual Jews who rejected God's promise of Messiah. The threat of the wild ones being broken off after being grafted in refers to the same ability for them to apostatize. It's individuals.


— that the Pharisees used to believe in Jesus but then stopped,

No. Jesus makes it clear that they were never children of Abraham, they were children of the devil. Therefore they were never in Him for them to have been broken off.


and that the individual Romans currently believe but may stop?

Exactly


It's referring to groups over time, not individuals.

No it doesn't.

Obsidian
12-19-2014, 07:16 AM
Then like footwasher said, it is clear that you are ignoring the fact that they are part of the plant at first.

Bill the Cat
12-19-2014, 07:23 AM
Then like footwasher said, it is clear that you are ignoring the fact that they are part of the plant at first.

No I am not. Salvation is from the Jews. This imperfect metaphor Paul is using is to show the gentiles that even though they are not of the Jews, they still can enjoy the benefits of the promise given to the Jews. Earlier in the epistle, Paul had already made it clear that they were not pre-saved by being Jews, but they got "first dibs" by being Jews.

Romans 1:16New American Standard Bible (NASB)

16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

Obsidian
12-19-2014, 09:05 AM
So what does their attachment to the plant symbolize? And what does being broken off symbolize?

Bill the Cat
12-19-2014, 09:18 AM
So what does their attachment to the plant symbolize? And what does being broken off symbolize?

It means that they are inheritors of the promise made to Abraham. Broken off means that they are no longer inheritors of the promise.

Obsidian
12-19-2014, 02:30 PM
You're basically just typing truisms and generalities. Please specify: Are you saying that individual Jews (e.g., Pharisees) believed in Jesus and gained eternal life, and then stopped believing and lost eternal life? And are you saying that individual Romans got saved by believing, but that Paul was warning these individuals not to give up their salvation?

Sparko
12-19-2014, 02:48 PM
You're basically just typing truisms and generalities. Please specify: Are you saying that individual Jews (e.g., Pharisees) believed in Jesus and gained eternal life, and then stopped believing and lost eternal life? And are you saying that individual Romans got saved by believing, but that Paul was warning these individuals not to give up their salvation?

You should actually read other people's posts instead of just skimming them and posting nonsense.

The OT jews looked forward to a Messiah. Jesus is the Messiah.

Romans was written to gentile Christian believers living in Rome, not all Romans.

Bill the Cat
12-19-2014, 04:04 PM
You're basically just typing truisms and generalities. Please specify: Are you saying that individual Jews (e.g., Pharisees) believed in Jesus and gained eternal life, and then stopped believing and lost eternal life?

:doh: No. The Pharisees were Jews. Therefore, they were natural branches born into the promise to Abraham. Through their unbelief, they were broken off and cast away. The Gentiles, through their belief, were grafted into the promise to Abraham. It isn't salvation that is in view here, but inheritance rights.


And are you saying that individual Romans got saved by believing, but that Paul was warning these individuals not to give up their salvation?

No. He was warning them not to give up their promise of inheritance through unbelief.

Obsidian
12-19-2014, 06:43 PM
No. He was warning them not to give up their promise of inheritance through unbelief.

Inheriting what, then?

footwasher
12-20-2014, 01:08 AM
This is how we must follow the will of God, towards entering the kingdom of God as raised in Matt 7:13, the gate that leads to Life being narrow with only few finding it, because they don’t allow the word to take root.

We should take up our cross, because no one can be a disciple of God without taking up a cross and following Christ:

Matthew 10:38
Whoever does not take up their cross and follow me is not worthy of me.

Luke 14:27
And whoever does not carry their cross and follow me cannot be my disciple.

1 Peter 2:21
To this you were called, because Christ suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in his steps


Those who have done so will receive a hundred times that which they have given up in this age and in the age to come eternal life.

Mark 10:Peter began to say to Him, "Behold, we have left everything and followed You."29Jesus said, "Truly I say to you, there is no one who has left house or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or farms, for My sake and for the gospel's sake, 30but that he will receive a hundred times as much now in the present age, houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and farms, along with persecutions; and in the age to come, eternal life.…

Matthew 6:33
But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well.

Matthew 19:29
And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or fields for my sake will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit eternal life.

Luke 18:29
"Truly I tell you," Jesus said to them, "no one who has left home or wife or brothers or sisters or parents or children for the sake of the kingdom of God

Luke 12:32“Do not be afraid, little flock, for your Father has chosen gladly to give you the kingdom.
33“Sell your possessions and give to charity; make yourselves money belts which do not wear out, an unfailing treasure in heaven, where no thief comes near nor moth destroys. 34“For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

That then is the call. However there is a stage before the call.

Believers are taken out of the control and influence of the world and placed in the control and influence of the church through baptism.

Romans 6:4Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.

Galatians 3:27“For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.”

1 John 3:2 - Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

They are nurtured by drinking from the Rock and the Rock is Christ. This nurturing is in the form of tests so new believers should not be surprised at the trials they go through because God is showing them that He can be depended on to lead them into mastery of the Promised Land, just as He was able to take them out of the slavery of the world.

Acts 14:21After they had preached the gospel to that city and had made many disciples, they returned to Lystra and to Iconium and to Antioch, 22strengthening the souls of the disciples, encouraging them to continue in the faith, and saying, "Through many tribulations we must enter the kingdom of God." 23When they had appointed elders for them in every church, having prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord in whom they had believed


Philippians 1:29
For it has been granted to you on behalf of Christ not only to believe in him, but also to suffer for him,

1 Thessalonians 3:3
so that no one would be unsettled by these trials. For you know quite well that we are destined for them.

2 Timothy 3:12
In fact, everyone who wants to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted,

Romans 5:2
through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we boast in the hope of the glory of God.

Hebrews 12:11
No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it.

James 1:2
Consider it pure joy, my brothers and sisters, whenever you face trials of many kinds,

1 Peter 3:17
For it is better, if it is God's will, to suffer for doing good than for doing evil.

1 Peter 4:12
Dear friends, do not be surprised at the fiery ordeal that has come on you to test you, as though something strange were happening to you.

1 Peter 5:10
And the God of all grace, who called you to his eternal glory in Christ, after you have suffered a little while, will himself restore you and make you strong, firm and steadfast.

Those who are entangled by the lure of their former life, and waste their time by murmuring instead of buying oil without money will fail the test when God calls, and find them not wearing wedding garments, lacking oil in their lamps, putting their hand to the plough share and then turning away, not crossing the Jordan.

Matthew 7:21
"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

Matthew 7:22
Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?'

Matthew 25:1
"At that time the kingdom of heaven will be like ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom.

Matthew 25:12
"But he replied, 'Truly I tell you, I don't know you.'

Luke 13:25
Once the owner of the house gets up and closes the door, you will stand outside knocking and pleading, 'Sir, open the door for us.' "But he will answer, 'I don't know you or where you come from.'



Adequate warning is given. Whilst the challenger is far away, we must decide if we have enough faith to take up our cross. No one sets out to battle ill prepared.No one starts building without enough money. If we feel our faith is inadequate to take up the cross, we must ask for terms of peace. Instead of gathering, we can support those who gather, using unrighteous Mammon to make friends. Then we will be welcomed into eternal shelters when our worldly resources run out. Shrewd believers will emulate the practical unbelievers of this world by making friends with those in the kingdom through supporting them

Luke 16:4
I know what I'll do so that, when I lose my job here, people will welcome me into their houses.'

When God calls today, do not be disobedient like the children of Israel, with whom He was not pleased, and swore that they would not enter his rest, and were set up to leave their bones in the desert:

Acts 5:…7Now there elapsed an interval of about three hours, and his wife came in, not knowing what had happened. 8And Peter responded to her, "Tell me whether you sold the land for such and such a price?" And she said, "Yes, that was the price."9Then Peter said to her, "Why is it that you have agreed together to put the Spirit of the Lord to the test? Behold, the feet of those who have buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out as well."

Bill the Cat
12-20-2014, 08:13 AM
Inheriting what, then?

The right to be called God's chosen people.

Soyeong
12-23-2014, 08:20 PM
Must you observe to keep the 10 commandments {including the sabbath} in order to be saved to the kingdom?

Ephesians 2:8-10 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

There is a difference between being declared justified/righteous and living righteously in that people who are declared righteous are then obligated to live righteously. The Torah is God's instructions for how man can live righteously. So you are saved by grace through faith, but people who are justified are then obligated to live righteously by doing good works, which God has prepared in advance and instructed in the Torah, which includes the Ten Commandments.

footwasher
12-24-2014, 02:53 AM
The two ways of being found acceptable by God

Through the law
Through grace

Through law, which could only reveal sin, leading to remorse, which the simple publican in the Temple felt. The educated Pharisee left out all the weightier issues of the Law and never felt remorse. Brokenness and humility made the former acceptable by God.

Through grace, which could not only make us acceptable before God but also justify, make us recipients of the promise to Abraham, make us the instruments through which the world could be blessed.


Don’t forget, Arminian in his articles in Roman's Clearinghouse stressed that OT believers were saved, but they could not be recipients of the promise made to Abraham. Christ came so that through the giving of the Spirit the promise to Abraham could be fulfilled (Galatians 3:14).


Now that I am found acceptable by grace I have no place for Law, which is good only for the sinner:

1 Timothy 1: 8 But we know that the Law is good, if one uses it lawfully,9 realizing the fact that law is not made for a righteous person, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers 10 and immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound teaching, 11according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, with which I have been entrusted.

I am now living not my life, but the life of Christ.

Galatians 2: 20“I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.

If I promote Law Keeping, then I am still ignorant, promoting a useless method for the justified, useful only for the sinner:

Galatians 2:18“For if I rebuild what I have once destroyed, I prove myself to be a transgressor.

I reiterate:

The law is for sinners to be followed in all aspects, the minor as well as the weightier points. To bring to brokenness, and finding acceptability in God's sight, through seeking Him out:


Acts 17:24“The God who made the world and all things in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands; 25 nor is He served by human hands, as though He needed anything, since He Himself gives to all people life and breath and all things; 26 and He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation, 27 that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; 28 for in Him we live and move and exist, as even some of your own poets have said, ‘For we also are His children.’


Grace through faith is for those who have entered the Kingdom, summed up by not being tied down to a rigid list but by being loyal to Christ in all our actions in situations that may arise whether in being impartial to both rich and poor or doing good works to the widow as well as to the orphan, by which we will be used by God, when we enter His rest:

Hebrews 4:0For the one who has entered His rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His.

Soyeong
12-24-2014, 10:54 AM
Now that I am found acceptable by grace I have no place for Law, which is good only for the sinner:

The law is how we know what sin is and sin is defined as breaking the law:

Romans 7:7a What shall we say, then? Is the law sinful? Certainly not! Nevertheless, I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law.

1 John 3:4 Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness.

If Paul had thought that being under grace meant that we don't have to pay attention to the law, then he would have said that we were free to sin, but he emphatically said that opposite:

Romans 6:15-19 What then? Are we to sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! 16 Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves,[c] you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17 But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed, 18 and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness. 19 I am speaking in human terms, because of your natural limitations. For just as you once presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness leading to sanctification.

Instead we are to make ourselves as slaves who are obedient to the law, which leads to righteousness an sanctification. Being under grace refers to the fact that Jesus paid the penalty for our sins/transgression of the law, so we are not under its penalty, but that didn't mean that we're not supposed to make ourselves obedient to it. Afterall, it is still God's instructions for how to live righteously and to demonstrate our love to Him. There will be two judgements, one according to whether we are justified and one according to what we've done in obedience to God's instructions:

2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil.


1 Timothy 1: 8 But we know that the Law is good, if one uses it lawfully,9 realizing the fact that law is not made for a righteous person, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers 10 and immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound teaching, 11according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, with which I have been entrusted.

God said that if we love Him, then we should obey His commands and love seeks to go the extra mile. Instructions for how to live righteously do not need to be given to those who are living righteously because they are already meeting or exceeding those instructions, but rather they need to be given to those who are living unrighteously.

Galatians 3:24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Similarly, if you were under a tutor and have reached the point where you no longer need them, does that mean that you are now to disregard everything they taught you? Or do you no longer need the tutor because everything they taught you is now second nature and you are now able to meet or exceed their instructions without being told what to do? A tutor is not for an expert, but for someone who still needs to learn how they should act.

If you think about it, how does it even make sense for those who are living unrighteously to need instructions for how to live righteously while those who are righteous have no place for living righteously? Is it not even more important for those who have confessed Jesus as Lord to live righteously? Are we not, according to Ephesians 2:8-10 new creations in Christ for the purpose of doing good works? Is the law not God's instructions for how to do good works?


If I promote Law Keeping, then I am still ignorant, promoting a useless method for the justified, useful only for the sinner:

Galatians 2:18“For if I rebuild what I have once destroyed, I prove myself to be a transgressor.

How we are justified is a different matter than how the justified should act. I have no disagreement with you about the method of justification being by grace through faith, but rather my point is that those who are declared justified are called to live righteously. Paul was not saying in Romans 6:15-19 that we were free to break the law or that we were to sit back and not do anything, but rather that we are set free from sin to become obedient slaves, which leads to righteous living, which is done by following God's instructions for how to do that in the Torah. Paul didn't say that we nullify the law through faith, but that we uphold it.


The law is for sinners to be followed in all aspects, the minor as well as the weightier points. To bring to brokenness, and finding acceptability in God's sight, through seeking Him out:

The law was never given by God as instructions for how people could become righteous through our own efforts, but rather it has given as instructions for how people can live righteously. Our inability to live righteously indeed points to our need for Christ, but not so that we can no longer be concerned with living righteously, but so that we can be enabled to do so.

footwasher
12-24-2014, 05:04 PM
We must be careful how Paul uses the word "law". In some passages it is used to mean "works of the law" a subset of the 613 precepts chosen as halakah, mandatory, to identify those who were "clean" not committing an infraction. Some were confused whether it still applied to those Gentiles who became Christians, whether they still had to become Jews first and the judaisers tried to impose circumcision and other customs that identified Jews on these converts. Paul was adamant that the only requirement was faith.

The term could also be used to mean the code that a particular group of gentiles chose to regulate the society they lived in and Paul was clear that those who were abiding by those laws were meeting the standard God required of them, were equivalent to those Jews who considered all the 613 precepts as mandatory for Israel, as applicable, since some precepts were only for priests, etc.

The third way it could be used was to indicate the new requirement under the covenant Jesus introduced, faith, loyalty. To be faithful was to act in a way that was not against Christ. The unmerciful steward never broke a law set down in a rigid list, but was acting against the spirit of the King's rule, His way of doing things. In that respect his act was breaking the law, even seditious, treason. The reason it was called the law of liberty was that it did not impose a daily requirement, since you could go through a day without meeting any person, and therefore would not have to think about how you would regulate your action, a heavy burden that observant Jews could not avoid.

Therefore, in this third situation, law meant acting faithfully, loyally, leading to receiving all the benefits that the covenant of grace provided. The covenant of Law provided observant Jews with protection, the law was a guardian (pedagogues were babysitters, not tutors, responsible for ensuring the child reached school safely) and Moses face shone when the law was read. However he veiled his face to prevent the Israelites from seeing the glory of the covenant of Law fade away. He couldn't reveal that it was a fading glory since Israel needed all the encouragement she could get in the empty desert since the next leader God sent, who would be like Moses, whose covenant was a superior one, with better benefits, had not yet come.


The law is how we know what sin is and sin is defined as breaking the law:

Romans 7:7a What shall we say, then? Is the law sinful? Certainly not! Nevertheless, I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law.


Here Paul is talking about the civil code.


1 John 3:4 Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness.

Here John had the law of liberty and love in mind, disloyalty to Christ, not having His word abide in them.

1 John 2:24As for you, let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father.

In other words, if you are "clean", you are not cut off, can remain in the camp of the Israel of God.


John 6:56Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them.

John 14:23Jesus replied, "Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them.

John 15:3“You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4“Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me. 5“I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing. 6“If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned. 7“If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. 8“My Father is glorified by this, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be My disciples. 9“Just as the Father has loved Me, I have also loved you; abide in My love. 10“If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.

John 17: 22“The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as We are one; 23I in them and You in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, so that the world may know that You sent Me, and loved them, even as You have loved Me. 24“Father, I desire that they also, whom You have given Me, be with Me where I am, so that they may see My glory which You have given Me, for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.



If Paul had thought that being under grace meant that we don't have to pay attention to the law, then he would have said that we were free to sin, but he emphatically said that opposite:

Romans 6:15-19 What then? Are we to sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! 16 Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves,[c] you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17 But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed, 18 and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness. 19 I am speaking in human terms, because of your natural limitations. For just as you once presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness leading to sanctification.

Here Paul is talking about how freedom from the old covenant does not just mean the availability of freedom from obligations but also the availability of and ability to serving Christ.

Setting it out like this:

Old Covenant
1 Become Jews, follow Moses out of Egypt>baptism into God's separated people, the eklesia, through the water and the cloud, with access to water from the Rock and bread that God gave, towards pleasing God, leading to rest from enemies and wandering, for the believing.
2 In the Promised Land, follow works of the law> not justified.
3 Follow ALL the Law, lesser as well as the weightier aspects>found righteous, through brokenness, humility, like the publican, Zecharias and Elizabeth.
4 Even when found righteous, still unable to live, have eternal life, be a blessing to the world, through the inability of the law to justify, because of the weakness of the flesh, requiring the Anointed One, spoken of by Moses, to save His people from their sins.

New Covenant
1 Become Christian, follow Christ out of the world>baptism into the Body of Christ, through the water and the Holy Spirit.
2 Freed from the COVENANT of the law, through the fulfilling of THAT covenant by Christ, through His death>found righteous
3 Faithful, being loyal to Christ>justified
4 Living in Christ>freed from the weakness of the flesh, able to follow the Royal Law of Liberty and Love.


Instead we are to make ourselves as slaves who are obedient to the law, which leads to righteousness and sanctification. Being under grace refers to the fact that Jesus paid the penalty for our sins/transgression of the law, so we are not under its penalty, but that didn't mean that we're not supposed to make ourselves obedient to it. Afterall, it is still God's instructions for how to live righteously and to demonstrate our love to Him. There will be two judgements, one according to whether we are justified and one according to what we've done in obedience to God's instructions:

2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil.


We are freed from the OLD Covenant, with its heavier burden and lesser glory. Its foolish to revert to it as Paul taught, because in doing so you reject the new: you can't accept two contracts, Christ will be of no benefit to you.


God said that if we love Him, then we should obey His commands and love seeks to go the extra mile. Instructions for how to live righteously do not need to be given to those who are living righteously because they are already meeting or exceeding those instructions, but rather they need to be given to those who are living unrighteously.

Galatians 3:24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.


The Covenant of Law is given to all men, Torah to the Jews, codes to the Gentiles. All men are unrighteous by birth. Those in Christ are new, found righteous. There is no transgression where there is no law.


Similarly, if you were under a tutor and have reached the point where you no longer need them, does that mean that you are now to disregard everything they taught you? Or do you no longer need the tutor because everything they taught you is now second nature and you are now able to meet or exceed their instructions without being told what to do? A tutor is not for an expert, but for someone who still needs to learn how they should act.

If you think about it, how does it even make sense for those who are living unrighteously to need instructions for how to live righteously while those who are righteous have no place for living righteously? Is it not even more important for those who have confessed Jesus as Lord to live righteously? Are we not, according to Ephesians 2:8-10 new creations in Christ for the purpose of doing good works? Is the law not God's instructions for how to do good works?

How we are justified is a different matter than how the justified should act. I have no disagreement with you about the method of justification being by grace through faith, but rather my point is that those who are declared justified are called to live righteously. Paul was not saying in Romans 6:15-19 that we were free to break the law or that we were to sit back and not do anything, but rather that we are set free from sin to become obedient slaves, which leads to righteous living, which is done by following God's instructions for how to do that in the Torah. Paul didn't say that we nullify the law through faith, but that we uphold it.

The law was never given by God as instructions for how people could become righteous through our own efforts, but rather it has given as instructions for how people can live righteously. Our inability to live righteously indeed points to our need for Christ, but not so that we can no longer be concerned with living righteously, but so that we can be enabled to do so.


See above.

Be careful with your categories. Try to avoid mixing them. I find it helpful to set out the situations presented. What happens when a person signs a contract? What does he have to pay? What does he receive?

My pastor was commenting on how the mood was so serious this Christmas, in the light of world events. Still, we can rejoice at the thought of our possession of the gift God gave us in Christ, and how we can pass on that gift to our friends! Happy Christmas!

Soyeong
12-24-2014, 08:15 PM
We must be careful how Paul uses the word "law". In some passages it is used to mean "works of the law" a subset of the 613 precepts chosen as halakah, mandatory, to identify those who were "clean" not committing an infraction. Some were confused whether it still applied to those Gentiles who became Christians, whether they still had to become Jews first and the judaisers tried to impose circumcision and other customs that identified Jews on these converts. Paul was adamant that the only requirement was faith.

The term could also be used to mean the code that a particular group of gentiles chose to regulate the society they lived in and Paul was clear that those who were abiding by those laws were meeting the standard God required of them, were equivalent to those Jews who considered all the 613 precepts as mandatory for Israel, as applicable, since some precepts were only for priests, etc.

The third way it could be used was to indicate the new requirement under the covenant Jesus introduced, faith, loyalty. To be faithful was to act in a way that was not against Christ. The unmerciful steward never broke a law set down in a rigid list, but was acting against the spirit of the King's rule, His way of doing things. In that respect his act was breaking the law, even seditious, treason. The reason it was called the law of liberty was that it did not impose a daily requirement, since you could go through a day without meeting any person, and therefore would not have to think about how you would regulate your action, a heavy burden that observant Jews could not avoid.

Therefore, in this third situation, law meant acting faithfully, loyally, leading to receiving all the benefits that the covenant of grace provided. The covenant of Law provided observant Jews with protection, the law was a guardian (pedagogues were babysitters, not tutors, responsible for ensuring the child reached school safely) and Moses face shone when the law was read. However he veiled his face to prevent the Israelites from seeing the glory of the covenant of Law fade away. He couldn't reveal that it was a fading glory since Israel needed all the encouragement she could get in the empty desert since the next leader God sent, who would be like Moses, whose covenant was a superior one, with better benefits, had not yet come.

A lot of the discussion about the law in the Bible has to do with a particular way in which it is followed. A rabbi or group had oral laws consisting of interpretations, customs, traditions, rulings, and fences that governed the way that they thought the the written law of the Torah should be correctly understood and followed. This is what is encompassed by the phrase "works of the law" so the Pharisees, Judaizers, Jesus, Paul, etc., all had their works of the law. The rabbinic phrase "to fulfill the law" means to interpret it in such a way that filled it up with meaning, added to its meaning, or showed how God meant it to be understood. So when Jesus said he came to fulfill the law, he was saying that he came to give us a correct or complete understanding for how to follow the Torah, and this was his works of the law, also known as the law of Christ.

One the main problems Paul had was with the circumcision group, who wanted to say that you had to follow their works of the law and follow the Torah in the way they said in order to be saved. Paul upheld the Torah, so he never taught against keeping it, but rather what he opposed was their way of keeping the Torah and the idea that you could be justified by keeping it - that was not the reason why it was given. The problem was faithless works and the solution was not to stop doing good works, but to start doing them in the right way.

Romans 9:30-32a What shall we say, then? That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but that Israel who pursued a law that would lead to righteousness[d] did not succeed in reaching that law. 32 Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were based on works.

The problem here was not with pursuing the law, but with pursuing it in the wrong way.


Here Paul is talking about the civil code.


1 John 3:4 Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness.

Here John had the law of liberty and love in mind, disloyalty to Christ, not having His word abide in them.

If you asked any Jew what sin was, they would say breaking the Laws of Moses, so I see no good reason to think that they were talking about anything else. God did not give the law to be a burden, but to be a delight. Any discussion of the law in the Psalms will confirm that, especially 119.

Psalms 1:1-2 Blessed is the man[a]
who walks not in the counsel of the wicked,
nor stands in the way of sinners,
nor sits in the seat of scoffers;
2 but his delight is in the law[b] of the Lord,
and on his law he meditates day and night.

Psalms 119:45 I will walk about in freedom, for I have sought out your precepts.

So the law of liberty just is the Torah rightly understood. However, by the time of Jesus, mountains of man-made oral law had turned what was supposed to be a delight into a heavy burden and many kept the law in an effort to become justified rather than out of faith and love. Jesus came to restore us to the right way of keeping the Torah and one of his biggest sources of conflict with the Pharisees was when they gave their own traditions a higher priority than the Torah:

And he said to them, “Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written,

Mark 7:6-8 “‘This people honors me with their lips,
but their heart is far from me;
7 in vain do they worship me,
teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’
8 You leave the commandment of God and hold to the tradition of men.”


1 John 2:24As for you, let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father.

In other words, if you are "clean", you are not cut off, can remain in the camp of the Israel of God.

John 6:56Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them.

John 14:23Jesus replied, "Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them.

John 15:3“You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4“Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me. 5“I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing. 6“If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned. 7“If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. 8“My Father is glorified by this, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be My disciples. 9“Just as the Father has loved Me, I have also loved you; abide in My love. 10“If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.

John 17: 22“The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as We are one; 23I in them and You in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, so that the world may know that You sent Me, and loved them, even as You have loved Me. 24“Father, I desire that they also, whom You have given Me, be with Me where I am, so that they may see My glory which You have given Me, for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.

Good verses, though I'm not sure why you're citing them.


Here Paul is talking about how freedom from the old covenant does not just mean the availability of freedom from obligations but also the availability of and ability to serving Christ.

Setting it out like this:

Old Covenant
1 Become Jews, follow Moses out of Egypt>baptism into God's separated people, the eklesia, through the water and the cloud, with access to water from the Rock and bread that God gave, towards pleasing God, leading to rest from enemies and wandering, for the believing.
2 In the Promised Land, follow works of the law> not justified.
3 Follow ALL the Law, lesser as well as the weightier aspects>found righteous, through brokenness, humility, like the publican, Zecharias and Elizabeth.
4 Even when found righteous, still unable to live, have eternal life, be a blessing to the world, through the inability of the law to justify, because of the weakness of the flesh, requiring the Anointed One, spoken of by Moses, to save His people from their sins.

New Covenant
1 Become Christian, follow Christ out of the world>baptism into the Body of Christ, through the water and the Holy Spirit.
2 Freed from the COVENANT of the law, through the fulfilling of THAT covenant by Christ, through His death>found righteous
3 Faithful, being loyal to Christ>justified
4 Living in Christ>freed from the weakness of the flesh, able to follow the Royal Law of Liberty and Love.

Abraham was justified by faith just like everyone else:

Romans 4:3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.”

The main differences between covenants are the means of atonement, the power of that atonement, the priesthood which offers the sacrifice, the Temple in which the sacrifice is offered, and its availability to everyone. The "New Testament" is properly translated as the "Renewed Covenant" and it involves the law being written on our hearts (Jeremiah 31:31-34).


We are freed from the OLD Covenant, with its heavier burden and lesser glory. Its foolish to revert to it as Paul taught, because in doing so you reject the new: you can't accept two contracts, Christ will be of no benefit to you.

Galatians 3:17 This is what I mean: the law, which came 430 years afterward, does not annul a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to make the promise void.

All of the previous covenants were cumulative and the Renewed Covenant is no different. God's laws remain God's laws regardless of any particular covenant to follow them. Laws, such as the Sabbath were given before the law was given at Mt. Sinai, so even if the Old Covenant were annulled, it wouldn't follow that it was no longer necessary to keep it. And even then God's laws still remain instructions for how man can live righteously and demonstrate our love to Him if we so choose, which I see no good reason for why that's something we shouldn't want to do regardless of any particular covenant.


The Covenant of Law is given to all men, Torah to the Jews, codes to the Gentiles. All men are unrighteous by birth. Those in Christ are new, found righteous. There is no transgression where there is no law.

If there is no law and no transgression of the law, then it would be impossible for us to sin. We would be free to do whatever we wanted, but Paul said the exact opposite, that we weren't to sin, and to sinning was understood by him, like every other Jew, as breaking the Laws of Moses. When we are found to be righteous, that means that we are called to live righteously, which means following God's instructions for how to do that in the Torah. All of the Renewed Covenant authors remained Torah compliant and none of them taught against keeping it. The early Gentiles were also Torah compliant.

Happy Christmas!

EDIT:


1 Become Christian, follow Christ out of the world>baptism into the Body of Christ, through the water and the Holy Spirit.

Jesus did not come to start a new religion, but rather he was born a Jew, became a Jewish rabbi, had Jewish disciples, came as the Jewish Messiah in fulfillment of Jewish prophecy, and all believers up though Acts 10 were Jews. Christianity is the true form of Judaism and Gentiles are grafted into a Jewish religion. None of them gave up their Jewish identities and Paul still identified as a Pharisee in Acts 23:6.

Scrawly
12-25-2014, 12:30 AM
1) But the goal of our instruction is love from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith. (1. Tim. 1:5)

2) For some men, straying from these things, have turned aside to fruitless discussion, (1Tim. 1:6)

Gill Comments: From which some having swerved,.... The apostle, in this verse and the next, describes the persons he suspected of teaching other doctrines, and of introducing fables and endless genealogies; they were such who departed from the above things; they erred from the commandment, or law, notwithstanding their great pretensions to a regard unto it; at least they missed the mark, the end and design of it; they went astray from that, and instead of promoting charity or love, created feuds, contentions, and divisions in the churches; and were far from having a pure heart, being filthy dreamers, and sensual persons, destitute of the Spirit of God, and were such who put away a good conscience, and made shipwreck of faith: such were Hymenaeus, Philetus, Alexander, and others, of whom he also says, they

have turned aside to vain jangling; which he elsewhere calls empty talk, and vain babblings, 1 Timothy 6:20, from the solid doctrines of the Gospel, and a solid way of handling them, they turned to vain, idle, useless, and unprofitable subjects of discourse, and to treating upon subjects in a vain, jejune, and empty manner; entertaining their hearers with foolish and trifling questions and answers to them about the law, and with strifes about words, which were unserviceable and unedifying; they were unruly and vain talkers, Titus 1:10.

Source: http://biblehub.com/1_timothy/1-6.htm

3) wanting to be teachers of the Law, even though they do not understand either what they are saying or the matters about which they make confident assertions. (1Tim. 1:7)

Gill Comments: Desiring to be teachers of the law,.... They were very fond of being called Rabbi, Rabbi, and styled doctors of the law, and of being thought to have skill in interpreting the law, and good talents in expounding it, and preaching upon it; which was now most in vogue, and gained the greatest applause, when the preaching of the Gospel was treated with contempt, not only by the unbelieving Jews, but by judaizing Christians, and carnal professors,

Understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm: they did not understand the law, the nature and end, the purity and spirituality, and perfection of it, which they were so fond of teaching, and went into many foolish and unlearned questions about it; see 2 Timothy 2:23, and which they as foolishly answered: these are the ignorant and unlearned men, who, notwithstanding their vain show of learning, and pretence to skill in interpreting the law, wrested the Scriptures to their own destruction, and that of others; they were ignorant of the things they talked of, and knew not by what arguments to confirm them, and yet were very bold and confident in their assertions: and generally speaking so it is, that those who can prove least assert most, and that with the greatest assurance.

Source: http://biblehub.com/1_timothy/1-7.htm

4a) But we know that the Law is good, ( 1Tim. 1:8)

Gill comments: But we know that the law is good,.... The apostle says this to prevent an objection that might be made to him, that seeing he bore so hard on such who were fond of being teachers of the law, he was himself against the law, and the preaching and proper use of it; but this he would not have concluded, for he and his fellow labourers in the ministry, and all true believers know, from the Scriptures of truth, from the agreement of the law with the Gospel, and from their own experience, that the law is good, provided it be used in a lawful way, and to lawful purposes: and this is to be understood not of the ceremonial law, which was now disannulled, because of the weakness and unprofitableness of it, so that there was no lawful use of that; but of the moral law, which must needs be good, since the author of it is God, who is only good; and nothing but good can come from him: the law, strictly moral, is a copy of his nature, transcribed out of himself, as well as with his own hands; and is a declaration of his will, and is stamped with his authority, and therefore must be good: the matter of it is good, it contains good, yea, great and excellent things; the matter of it is honestly and morally good, as to love mercy, do justice, and walk humbly with God: and it is pleasantly good to a regenerate man, who loves it, and delights in it after the inner man, and serves it with his spirit; though the carnal mind cannot be subject to it, but rejects it, and rebels against it: and it is also profitably good; for though obedience to it is not profitable to God, yet it is to men; and though eternal life is not obtained hereby, nor any reward given for keeping it, yet in keeping it there is a reward; and that peace is enjoyed, which the transgressors of it are strangers to: it is good in the uses of it, both to sinners and to saints. To sinners it is useful for the knowledge of sin, to convince of it, and bring them to a sense of it, and concern for it, which is effectually done, when the Spirit of God sets in with it, or brings this commandment home to the heart; and if it has not this use, it is sometimes a means of restraining men from sin, which is the use of civil laws among men; and if it has not this, it is of use however to accuse men rightly of sin, and to pronounce justly guilty before God for it, to curse them as they deserve it, and to sentence to condemnation and death: and to believers it is of use, though they are not under it as in the hands of Moses, and as a covenant of works, and are freed from its curse and condemnation, and under no obligation to seek for life and righteousness by it; to them it is of use, to point out to them what is the will of God, and what should be done, and not done; and it is a rule of walk and conversation to them, as in the hands of Christ; and is as a glass to them to behold their own deformity, the impurity of their nature, the plague of their own hearts, and the imperfection of their obedience; by which they see the insufficiency of their own righteousness, how far they are from perfection, and what carnal creatures they are, when compared with this law: and as this serves to put them out of conceit with themselves, so it tends to make Christ and his righteousness more lovely and valuable in their esteem; who has wrought out a righteousness as broad and as long as the law is, and by which it is magnified and made honourable, and has delivered them from its curse and condemnation. And this law is good as it is holy, in its author, nature, and use; and as it is just, requiring just things, and doing that which is just, by acquitting those who are interested in Christ's righteousness, and in condemning those that have no righteousness; and as it is a spiritual and perfect law, which reaches the spirit and soul of man, and is concerned with inward thoughts and motions, as well as outward actions; and especially the end of it, the fulfilling end of it is good, which is Jesus Christ, who was made under it, came to fulfil it, and has answered all the demands of it: so that it must be good, and which cannot be denied

4b) if one uses it lawfully (1Tim. 1:8)

Gill comments: if a man use it lawfully; for if it is used in order to obtain life, righteousness, and salvation by the works of it, or by obedience to it, it is used unlawfully: for the law does not give life, nor can righteousness come by it; nor are, or can men be saved by the works of it; to use the law for such purposes, is to abuse it, as the false teachers did, and make that which is good in itself, and in its proper use, to do what is evil; namely, to obscure and frustrate the grace of God, and make null and void the sufferings and death of Christ. A lawful use of the law is to obey it, as in the hands of Christ, the King of saints, and lawgiver in his church, from a principle of love to him, in the exercise of faith on him, without any mercenary selfish views, without trusting to, or depending on, what is done in obedience to it, but with a view to the glory of God, to testify our subjection to Christ, and our gratitude to him for favours received from him.

Source: http://biblehub.com/1_timothy/1-8.htm

Scrawly
12-25-2014, 12:36 AM
Have a very Merry Christmas my dear friends. :smile:

To the pure, all things are pure; but to those who are defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure, but both their mind and their conscience are defiled. (Tit. 1:5)

Gill comments: Unto the pure all things are pure,.... The apostle having made mention of Jewish fables, and the traditions of the elders, takes notice of some darling notions, that these judaizing Christians had imbibed or retained; that there were some things, which being touched, or handled, or tasted, occasioned uncleanness, and which the apostle denies to them that are "pure"; by whom are meant, not such who are so in their own eyes, who yet may not be cleansed from their filthiness; nor do any become pure through ceremonial, moral, or evangelical performances, done by them; they are only pure, who are justified from all sin by Christ's righteousness, and are clean through the word or sentence of absolution spoken by him; and who are washed from their sins in his blood, and have that sprinkled upon their consciences, by which they are purged and cleansed from all sin; and who have the clean water of sanctifying grace sprinkled upon them, and have clean hearts, and right spirits created in them; and whose hearts are purified by faith, and have true principles of grace and holiness formed in them; whose graces are pure and genuine, their faith is unfeigned, their love is without dissimulation, and their hope without hypocrisy; and who, in consequence of all this, love pureness of heart, speak the pure language of Canaan, hold the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience, and follow after purity of life and conversation: to these "all things are pure"; whatever they touch, or handle, or eat, nothing can defile them; for it is not what enters into man that can pollute him; nor is any creature unclean of itself, but good, and to be received with thanksgiving; see Matthew 15:11.

But unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; all mankind are defiled with sin; they are altogether become filthy; there is none good, no, not one; and all of them, or that belong to them, are unclean; the members of their body, and the powers and faculties of their soul, their mind and conscience, understanding, will, and affections; there is no place clean: they are originally so, from their first conception and birth; and they are actually defiled by their own evil thoughts, words, and doings: some are openly impure, like the dog and the swine, who wallow in their impieties, such are the profane part of the world; others are more secretly so, as those of a pharisaical complexion, nominal Christians, and formal professors; and such the apostle has here in view: and who, notwithstanding their profession of the Christian religion, were "unbelieving"; they had not true faith in Christ, though they professed it; they were not indeed unbelieving, as the Jews, who rejected Jesus as the Messiah: yet they did not purely and cordially embrace the doctrines of the Gospel, nor yield a spiritual and cheerful subjection to the ordinances of it; but were for mixing the ceremonies of the law with the institutions of Christ: and to these were "nothing pure"; right and lawful to be done, or not done, even in the case supposed, about eating things forbidden by the ceremonial law; to eat them would be to eat with offence, to their own consciences, on their principles, and so be evil, Romans 14:20 and to abstain from them on account of laws not in force, would be superstition and will worship, and so criminal, Colossians 2:21. There is nothing that defiled persons can do, but what is unclean; as are their persons, so are their offerings and works, Haggai 2:14, and being destitute of true faith, whatever they do is sin, and not anything they do can be acceptable and well pleasing to God, Romans 14:23. There were some things among the Jews, which were prohibited to them that were defiled, and were free to them that were pure: thus, for instance (u),

"the flesh of the most holy things, and the flesh of those which are lightly holy, boiled with flesh of delight, (or common flesh,) are forbidden "to the defiled", but are free "to the pure".''

Which one of their commentators (w) thus explains;

"the flesh of the most holy things is forbidden to strangers, though pure; the flesh of things lightly holy is free to strangers that are pure, but forbidden to them that are defiled.''

Whether there may be any allusion to this, may be considered: however, the reason the apostle gives why nothing is pure to the impure, is, because of the pollution of the superior powers and faculties of their soul:

but even their mind and conscience is defiled; there is nothing in them, or that belongs to them, that is pure; their mind or understanding, which conceives and judges of things, and forms notions of them; and the conscience, which draws conclusions from them, are both defiled with sin; and what then must the thoughts, the words and actions of such persons be? it matters not what they do, or abstain from, what they touch, taste, or handle, or if they do not, they sin in all they do.

(u) Minn. Orla, c. 2. sect. 17. (w) Bartenora, in Misn. Orla, c. 2. sect. 17.

Source: http://biblehub.com/titus/1-15.htm

footwasher
12-25-2014, 08:20 AM
A lot of the discussion about the law in the Bible has to do with a particular way in which it is followed. A rabbi or group had oral laws consisting of interpretations, customs, traditions, rulings, and fences that governed the way that they thought the the written law of the Torah should be correctly understood and followed. This is what is encompassed by the phrase "works of the law" so the Pharisees, Judaizers, Jesus, Paul, etc., all had their works of the law. The rabbinic phrase "to fulfill the law" means to interpret it in such a way that filled it up with meaning, added to its meaning, or showed how God meant it to be understood. So when Jesus said he came to fulfill the law, he was saying that he came to give us a correct or complete understanding for how to follow the Torah, and this was his works of the law, also known as the law of Christ.

One the main problems Paul had was with the circumcision group, who wanted to say that you had to follow their works of the law and follow the Torah in the way they said in order to be saved. Paul upheld the Torah, so he never taught against keeping it, but rather what he opposed was their way of keeping the Torah and the idea that you could be justified by keeping it - that was not the reason why it was given. The problem was faithless works and the solution was not to stop doing good works, but to start doing them in the right way.

Romans 9:30-32a What shall we say, then? That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but that Israel who pursued a law that would lead to righteousness[d] did not succeed in reaching that law. 32 Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were based on works.

The problem here was not with pursuing the law, but with pursuing it in the wrong way.

Wright understands the term “works of the Law” to mean more than just a particular rabbi’s interpretation of Torah, holding that it was covenantal and eschatological.

Quote
Let me state my proposal at the outset in six propositions, for which I shall then argue. The
first and third form the heart of my contention.
(1) The context within which the key line C31 may best be understood is explicitly covenantal
and eschatological.
(2) The halakhic precepts offered in the text are intended to function as indicators, boundarymarkers,
of God’s eschatological people; this is the meaning of “justification by works” in the
present time, anticipating “the end of time”.
(3) Paul, arguably, held a version of the same covenantal and eschatological scheme of
thought; but in his scheme the place MMT gave to ‘works of Torah’ was taken by ‘faith’.
(4) Paul’s doctrine, like that of MMT, was not about ‘getting in’ but about community
definition.
(5) The Pauline halakhah, if that is what it is, plays a quite different role within his
community definition to that which halakhah plays in MMT.
(6) MMT is written neither by nor for Pharisees. Just as the ‘works’ it prescribes are not those
of the Pharisees, so we cannot assume that the form and structure of its doctrine of justification are identical, or even similar, to that of the Pharisees, or of the Galatian ‘agitators’, or of Peter in Galatians 2.

http://ntwrightpage.com/Wright_4QMMT_Paul.pdf

The context is that of the prophecy contained in Deuteronomy 39:

Quote
The writer then repeats an earlier exhortation to study the scriptures (C10). The scriptures he
has in mind are the covenantal passages from the end of Deuteronomy (30—31), in which the
blessings and the curses of the covenant are invoked upon those who keep or reject Torah. But these passages are not merely covenantal; they are also to be read (as, arguably, they ask to be read) historically and eschatologically.22 They do not merely hold out a timeless blessing and a timeless curse to anyone, anywhere, who keeps or does not keep Torah. They offer a historical sequence, which Israel as a nation will follow through, first experiencing blessing, then pulling down on herself the curses, and then, at the end of days, discovering the way to blessing once more:

11And in the book (of Moses) it is written [... ... ...] not 12[...] and former days [...] And it is written that [you will stray] from the path (of the Torah) and that calamity will meet [you]. And it is written 13‘and it shall come to pass, when 14all these things [be]fall you’, at the end of days, the blessings 15and the curses, [‘then you will take] it to hea[rt] and you will return unto Him with all your heart 16and with all your soul’, at the end [of time, so that you may live ... ...] 17[It is written in the book] of Moses [and in the books of the Prophets] that there will come [...] 18 [the blessings have (already) befallen in ...] in the days of Solomon the son of David. And the curses 19[that] have (already) befallen from the days of Jeroboam the son of Nebat and up to when Jerusalem and Zedekiah King of Judah went into captivity 20that He will bring them [...]. And we know that some of the blessings and the curses have (already) been fulfilled 21as it is written in the bo[ok of Mo]ses. And this is at the end of days when they will return to Isra[el] 22[forever ...] and not be cancelled, but the wicked will act wickedly, and [...]23

http://ntwrightpage.com/Wright_4QMMT_Paul.pdf

In other words, Paul is only following in the path of rabbis who offered interpretations of what God required in order to be restored from Exile. The archaeological evidence of the Dead Sea Scrolls supports this view.



If you asked any Jew what sin was, they would say breaking the Laws of Moses, so I see no good reason to think that they were talking about anything else. God did not give the law to be a burden, but to be a delight. Any discussion of the law in the Psalms will confirm that, especially 119.

Psalms 1:1-2 Blessed is the man[a]
who walks not in the counsel of the wicked,
nor stands in the way of sinners,
nor sits in the seat of scoffers;
2 but his delight is in the law[b] of the Lord,
and on his law he meditates day and night.

Psalms 119:45 I will walk about in freedom, for I have sought out your precepts.

Interesting that the writer comments about meditating on the law and seeking it out, because DOING it would definitely be a burden:

Acts 15: 6The apostles and the elders came together to look into this matter. 7After there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, “Brethren, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles would hear the word of the gospel and believe. 8“And God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us; 9and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith. 10“Now therefore why do you put God to the test by placing upon the neck of the disciples a yoke which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear? 11“But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are.”

Besides God was not displeased with israel with sinning against the Mosaic Law, but because of their disloyalty, following Him out of Egypt and then not continuing in following Him:

Hebrews 3: 7Therefore, just as the Holy Spirit says,
“TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE,
8DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS AS WHEN THEY PROVOKED ME,
AS IN THE DAY OF TRIAL IN THE WILDERNESS,
9WHERE YOUR FATHERS TRIED Me BY TESTING Me,
AND SAW MY WORKS FOR FORTY YEARS.
10“THEREFORE I WAS ANGRY WITH THIS GENERATION,
AND SAID, ‘THEY ALWAYS GO ASTRAY IN THEIR HEART,
AND THEY DID NOT KNOW MY WAYS’;
11AS I SWORE IN MY WRATH,
‘THEY SHALL NOT ENTER MY REST.’”

footwasher
12-25-2014, 08:22 AM
So the law of liberty just is the Torah rightly understood. However, by the time of Jesus, mountains of man-made oral law had turned what was supposed to be a delight into a heavy burden and many kept the law in an effort to become justified rather than out of faith and love. Jesus came to restore us to the right way of keeping the Torah and one of his biggest sources of conflict with the Pharisees was when they gave their own traditions a higher priority than the Torah:

And he said to them, “Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written,

Mark 7:6-8 “‘This people honors me with their lips,
but their heart is far from me;
7 in vain do they worship me,
teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’
8 You leave the commandment of God and hold to the tradition of men.”

Are you saying that circumcision is a man made tradition? This is what the Judaisers were trying to force the Gentiles to undergo. I’m afraid you aren’t making much sense.




Good verses, though I'm not sure why you're citing them.

Jesus was asking His disciple to obey His new command: to love one another. By doing so they would be loyal to Him, and then He and the Father would come and unite with the disciple. He replaced the Old Covenant with a new one, He declared all food clean, He concentrated on the moral rather than the ceremonial, raising the bar significantly: do not murder became do not even hate. This is the eternal law, God’s permanent requirements. They were actually toned down to accomodate Israel’s hardness of heart. When Christ came, He reinstates them in the original form, there is no cumulative effect.


Abraham was justified by faith just like everyone else:

Romans 4:3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.”

Only when faith is defined as “loyalty”: Abraham was loyal to God and it was counted as righteousness.


The main differences between covenants are the means of atonement, the power of that atonement, the priesthood which offers the sacrifice, the Temple in which the sacrifice is offered, and its availability to everyone. The "New Testament" is properly translated as the "Renewed Covenant" and it involves the law being written on our hearts (Jeremiah 31:31-34).

Galatians 3:17 This is what I mean: the law, which came 430 years afterward, does not annul a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to make the promise void.

The Mosaic Law came 430 years after the Abrahmic Covenant, which was a ratified law, an unconditional promise, and is not comparable to the New Covenant which annulled the Old Covenant, which was conditional on obedience. The Old Covenant was annulled when one of the parties to the contract died:

Romans 7:1Or do you not know, brethren (for I am speaking to those who know the law), that the law has jurisdiction over a person as long as he lives? 2For the married woman is bound by law to her husband while he is living; but if her husband dies, she is released from the law concerning the husband. 3So then, if while her husband is living she is joined to another man, she shall be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from the law, so that she is not an adulteress though she is joined to another man.
4Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ, so that you might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God. 5For while we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were aroused by the Law, were at work in the members of our body to bear fruit for death. 6But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.


All of the previous covenants were cumulative and the Renewed Covenant is no different. God's laws remain God's laws regardless of any particular covenant to follow them. Laws, such as the Sabbath were given before the law was given at Mt. Sinai, so even if the Old Covenant were annulled, it wouldn't follow that it was no longer necessary to keep it. And even then God's laws still remain instructions for how man can live righteously and demonstrate our love to Him if we so choose, which I see no good reason for why that's something we shouldn't want to do regardless of any particular covenant.

Does this apply to circumcision?




If there is no law and no transgression of the law, then it would be impossible for us to sin. We would be free to do whatever we wanted, but Paul said the exact opposite, that we weren't to sin, and to sinning was understood by him, like every other Jew, as breaking the Laws of Moses. When we are found to be righteous, that means that we are called to live righteously, which means following God's instructions for how to do that in the Torah. All of the Renewed Covenant authors remained Torah compliant and none of them taught against keeping it. The early Gentiles were also Torah compliant.

But Peter ate with the Gentiles!

And excused them from circumcision.


EDIT:
Jesus did not come to start a new religion, but rather he was born a Jew, became a Jewish rabbi, had Jewish disciples, came as the Jewish Messiah in fulfillment of Jewish prophecy, and all believers up though Acts 10 were Jews. Christianity is the true form of Judaism and Gentiles are grafted into a Jewish religion. None of them gave up their Jewish identities and Paul still identified as a Pharisee in Acts 23:6.

When you say that Christianity is the “true form of Judaism” that is tantamount to saying Mosaic Judaism is the wrong form of Judaism!

Soyeong
12-25-2014, 09:26 PM
In other words, Paul is only following in the path of rabbis who offered interpretations of what God required in order to be restored from Exile. The archaeological evidence of the Dead Sea Scrolls supports this view.

Ok, I'll grant that I need to look more into how the phrase "works of the law" should be interpreted, but whatever it means, Paul contrasted it with being justified by faith. I completely agree with you that we are only saved by grace through faith, but my concern is with the next verse that says that we are new creations in Christ for the purpose of doing good works/living righteously. And even if we weren't called to live that way, it would still be an ideal way for us to live.

Our motivation for doing good works plays a key role. Are we begrudgingly obeying the law because we think we'll be punished if we don't and we don't really have a choice, or are we cheerfully obeying the law because it is a delight and it is the least we can do to demonstrate our love to God and to our neighbor? God loves a cheerful giver, so the Torah properly understood has always been about building a relationship with God through faith grounded in love. Faith that is not grounded in love leads a perversion of the Torah and to trying to become justified through our own efforts, and as the giver of the Torah, that is what Jesus said he came to correct.


Interesting that the writer comments about meditating on the law and seeking it out, because DOING it would definitely be a burden:

Acts 15: 6The apostles and the elders came together to look into this matter. 7After there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, “Brethren, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles would hear the word of the gospel and believe. 8“And God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us; 9and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith. 10“Now therefore why do you put God to the test by placing upon the neck of the disciples a yoke which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear? 11“But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are.”

The circumcision group was trying to get everyone to come under their authority and follow their interpretations, traditions, customs, and fences in order to be saved. Jesus criticized the Pharisees in Matthew 23:4 for placing a heavy burden on people, but also criticized them in Mark 7:6-8 for following their own traditions instead of the commands of God, so Acts 15:6 is talking about the same heavy burden, but it is vitally important not to confuse a criticism of the way in which some people taught that the Torah should be followed with a criticism of the Torah itself. God Himself said keeping His commands wasn't too difficult:

Deuteronomy 30:11 “For this commandment that I command you today is not too hard for you, neither is it far off.


Besides God was not displeased with israel with sinning against the Mosaic Law, but because of their disloyalty, following Him out of Egypt and then not continuing in following Him:

Hebrews 3: 7Therefore, just as the Holy Spirit says,
“TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE,
8DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS AS WHEN THEY PROVOKED ME,
AS IN THE DAY OF TRIAL IN THE WILDERNESS,
9WHERE YOUR FATHERS TRIED Me BY TESTING Me,
AND SAW MY WORKS FOR FORTY YEARS.
10“THEREFORE I WAS ANGRY WITH THIS GENERATION,
AND SAID, ‘THEY ALWAYS GO ASTRAY IN THEIR HEART,
AND THEY DID NOT KNOW MY WAYS’;
11AS I SWORE IN MY WRATH,
‘THEY SHALL NOT ENTER MY REST.’”

Indeed, following God's commands has always been about building a relationship with Him and helping us not to go astray.


Are you saying that circumcision is a man made tradition? This is what the Judaisers were trying to force the Gentiles to undergo. I’m afraid you aren’t making much sense.

There is no process given in the Bible for how a Gentile is to become a proselyte and neither is there any requirement in the Bible for all Gentiles to become circumcised, so requiring Gentiles to do that is entirely a man-made tradition. Note that there was even disagreement among Jews about whether circumcision was required for a proselyte:

Yebamot 46a Our Rabbis taught: ‘If a proselyte was circumcised but had not performed the prescribed ritual immersion, R. Eliezer said, ‘Behold he is a proper proselyte; for so we find that our forefathers were circumcised and had not performed ritual immersion.’ If he performed the prescribed immersion but had not been circumcised, R. Joshua said, ‘Behold he is a proper proselyte; for so we find that the mothers had performed ritual immersion but had not been circumcised.’ The Sages, however, said, ‘Whether he had performed ritual immersion but had not been circumcised or whether he had been circumcised but had not performed the prescribed ritual immersion, he is not a proper proselyte, unless he has been circumcised and has also performed the prescribed ritual immersion.’

Deuteronomy 4:2 You shall not add to the word that I command you, nor take from it, that you may keep the commandments of the Lord your God that I command you.

The Jerusalem Council had no authority to add or subtract from what God had commanded in the Torah, but they could interpret it and make rulings as to how it was intended to be followed. In other words, if they had said, "We think that God commanded in His Torah that all Gentiles were to be circumcised, but we think God was wrong and that it is too much to ask of them, so we won't require it" then the people would have tried to execute them as false teachers according to Deuteronomy 13. But instead they made a ruling, which I think was correct, that the Torah doesn't command all Gentiles to be circumcised. So when the Jerusalem Council ruled against circumcision being required for all Gentiles, they were not ruling against the Torah, but again man’s opinion about how the Torah should be kept. Like Jesus and Paul, they were upholding the Torah.


Jesus was asking His disciple to obey His new command: to love one another. By doing so they would be loyal to Him, and then He and the Father would come and unite with the disciple. He replaced the Old Covenant with a new one, He declared all food clean, He concentrated on the moral rather than the ceremonial, raising the bar significantly: do not murder became do not even hate. This is the eternal law, God’s permanent requirements. They were actually toned down to accomodate Israel’s hardness of heart. When Christ came, He reinstates them in the original form, there is no cumulative effect.

Leviticus 19:18 You shall not take vengeance or bear a grudge against the sons of your own people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself: I am the Lord.

What is new in Jesus' command is that Leviticus says "as yourself" while Jesus said "as I have loved you". Jesus demonstrated his love for us by dying for us, but he also demonstrated how to love by keeping the Torah perfectly. Loving the Lord your God with all of you heart, soul, and mind is a lot easier said that done, so the rest of the commands in Torah are instructions for how to do that. But the key element that binds the laws together is love because without it following them is nothing and worse than that, it is a perversion of the Torah. There are a number of things that got improved in the Renewed Covenant, but how to live righteously and demonstrate our love to God remain the same, so the basic structure of God's instructions remained the same.

I contend that the topic of Mark 7 is whether ritual hand washing makes food that is normally kosher ritually unclean and never switches topic to annulling kosher laws. Mark 7:3-4 makes it clear they are talking about man-made traditions and in verses 6-8 Jesus criticizes them for following their own traditions rather than the commands for God, so it would make absolutely no sense for Jesus to set aside the commands of God a few verses later. Plus, doing so would disqualify him as the Messiah and be legitimate grounds for his execution under Deuteronomy 13. The parallel account in Matthew 15:19-20 further confirms that Jesus was still talking about eating with unwashed hands defiles someone. So Jesus ruled against a man-made tradition and upheld the Torah.

If moral laws only concern man's relationship with man, then the first 4 of the 10 Commandments do not concern morality, including the law against idolatry. However, if moral laws also concern man's relationship with God, then all of His instructions are morally binding. Jesus was the giver of the Torah and thought it was important enough to follow perfectly, so I see no indication that he thought any less of the instructions that the Bible does not record him teaching specifically about. Jesus said that not the smallest letter would disappear from the law until heaven and earth passed away and that those who set aside the least of his instructions and taught others to do the same would be called least in the kingdom. When Jesus said not to hate, that was a perfect example of him setting up a fence around the law and in Matthew 23, he criticized the Pharisees for not being strict enough. All of the previous covenants back through Adam have been cumulative, so you're going to need a better reason for why this one should be an exception, especially because Jeremiah 31:31-34 states that the Renewed Covenant involves the law being written on our hearts.


Only when faith is defined as “loyalty”: Abraham was loyal to God and it was counted as righteousness.

Faith has always been about trust and loyalty, but my point still remains that faith is the one and only way in which anyone, including Abraham, is justified.


The Mosaic Law came 430 years after the Abrahmic Covenant, which was a ratified law, an unconditional promise, and is not comparable to the New Covenant which annulled the Old Covenant, which was conditional on obedience. The Old Covenant was annulled when one of the parties to the contract died:

The promises that God made are not depended on our actions and we can not make God a liar. His promises hold true today the same as on the day that He made them. And even if I were to grant that the covenant was annulled, it was renewed.


Romans 7:1Or do you not know, brethren (for I am speaking to those who know the law), that the law has jurisdiction over a person as long as he lives? 2For the married woman is bound by law to her husband while he is living; but if her husband dies, she is released from the law concerning the husband. 3So then, if while her husband is living she is joined to another man, she shall be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from the law, so that she is not an adulteress though she is joined to another man.
4Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ, so that you might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God. 5For while we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were aroused by the Law, were at work in the members of our body to bear fruit for death. 6But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

If someone offered to pay for every library fine you got, you would not be free from that law, but from the penalty of that law. In much the same way, when Jesus paid the penalty for our sins/breaking the law, he did not set us free from having to obey the law, but only the penalty or condemnation of the law. As such, being under grace does not mean we free to sin/break the law. Paul continues this idea in Romans 7, where the when wife's husband dies, she is not set free from having to obey any of the other laws of the Torah, but rather she is only set from from the aspect of the law that would penalize her if she had joined to another man. In Romans 7:5-14, Paul was talking about the capacity of the Torah to stir up sin in an individual, but he doesn't blame the Torah, but rather the fault is with ourselves.

Romans 7:7a What then shall we say? That the law is sin? By no means!

Romans 7:12 So the law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good. 13 Did that which is good, then, bring death to me? By no means!

Romans 7:22 For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being,

Further confirmation that the law, properly understood, was a delight.


Does this apply to circumcision?

Circumcision was also commanded before the Torah was given at Mt. Sinai, but it was only commanded to Abraham and those born into his house or bought with money:

Genesis 17:12-14 He who is eight days old among you shall be circumcised. Every male throughout your generations, whether born in your house or bought with your money from any foreigner who is not of your offspring, 13 both he who is born in your house and he who is bought with your money, shall surely be circumcised. So shall my covenant be in your flesh an everlasting covenant. 14 Any uncircumcised male who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin shall be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant.”


But Peter ate with the Gentiles!

And excused them from circumcision.

Acts 10:28 And he said to them, “You yourselves know how unlawful it is for a Jew to associate with or to visit anyone of another nation, but God has shown me that I should not call any person common or unclean.

These laws that Peter was violating in Galatians 2 are not found anywhere in the Torah, but are man-made traditions and customs, so again the the Torah is consistently upheld while man-made traditions are ruled against. I see nothing that indicates to me that they were eating anything other than kosher food. If you're being grafted into Judaism, one of your first concerns should be to learn what God has commanded His followers to do so that you can obey Him and avoid needlessly offending other members of your religion.


When you say that Christianity is the “true form of Judaism” that is tantamount to saying Mosaic Judaism is the wrong form of Judaism!

Perhaps "complete" would have been a better word choice. Without understanding Christ's atoning work on the cross, Jews had an incomplete understanding of God's plan of salvation, but completing this understanding does not change it from Judaism. That would be like expecting Jesus to start a new religion at his second coming or if Islam were true expecting the Mahdi to start a new religion rather than being in fulfillment of Islam.

footwasher
12-26-2014, 10:05 AM
Ok, I'll grant that I need to look more into how the phrase "works of the law" should be interpreted, but whatever it means, Paul contrasted it with being justified by faith. I completely agree with you that we are only saved by grace through faith, but my concern is with the next verse that says that we are new creations in Christ for the purpose of doing good works/living righteously. And even if we weren't called to live that way, it would still be an ideal way for us to live.

Our motivation for doing good works plays a key role. Are we begrudgingly obeying the law because we think we'll be punished if we don't and we don't really have a choice, or are we cheerfully obeying the law because it is a delight and it is the least we can do to demonstrate our love to God and to our neighbor? God loves a cheerful giver, so the Torah properly understood has always been about building a relationship with God through faith grounded in love. Faith that is not grounded in love leads a perversion of the Torah and to trying to become justified through our own efforts, and as the giver of the Torah, that is what Jesus said he came to correct.


Breaking news! God never intended to give Israel any Law:

Jeremiah 7:22Thus says the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel, "Add your burnt offerings to your sacrifices and eat flesh. 22"For I did not speak to your fathers, or command them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings and sacrifices. 23"But this is what I commanded them, saying, 'Obey My voice, and I will be your God, and you will be My people; and you will walk in all the way which I command you, that it may be well with you.'…


The circumcision group was trying to get everyone to come under their authority and follow their interpretations, traditions, customs, and fences in order to be saved. Jesus criticized the Pharisees in Matthew 23:4 for placing a heavy burden on people, but also criticized them in Mark 7:6-8 for following their own traditions instead of the commands of God, so Acts 15:6 is talking about the same heavy burden, but it is vitally important not to confuse a criticism of the way in which some people taught that the Torah should be followed with a criticism of the Torah itself.

Misdirection. The Judaizers were not forcing their own traditions or interpretations on the Gentiles. They were forcing circumcision, plainly mandatory in the old covenant, not open to be interpreted or rationalised away.


God Himself said keeping His commands wasn't too difficult:

Deuteronomy 30:11 “For this commandment that I command you today is not too hard for you, neither is it far off.

Absolutely. keep ALL His commands, fail and cry out to Him for mercy, it was that easy:

Romans 10:1Brethren, my heart’s desire and my prayer to God for them is for their salvation.2For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge. 3For not knowing about God’s righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God. 4For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.
5For Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is based on law shall live by that righteousness. 6But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: “DO NOT SAY IN YOUR HEART, ‘WHO WILL ASCEND INTO HEAVEN?’ (that is, to bring Christ down), 7or ‘WHO WILL DESCEND INTO THE ABYSS?’ (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).”8But what does it say? “THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9that if you confess with your mouth Jesus asLord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;10for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. 11For the Scripture says, “WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED.” 12For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; 13for “WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.”



Indeed, following God's commands has always been about building a relationship with Him and helping us not to go astray.

Not really. OT saints never had God staying, making His dwelling, with them. Emmanuel, God with us, happened only with the sending of Christ.


There is no process given in the Bible for how a Gentile is to become a proselyte and neither is there any requirement in the Bible for all Gentiles to become circumcised, so requiring Gentiles to do that is entirely a man-made tradition. Note that there was even disagreement among Jews about whether circumcision was required for a proselyte:

Yebamot 46a Our Rabbis taught: ‘If a proselyte was circumcised but had not performed the prescribed ritual immersion, R. Eliezer said, ‘Behold he is a proper proselyte; for so we find that our forefathers were circumcised and had not performed ritual immersion.’ If he performed the prescribed immersion but had not been circumcised, R. Joshua said, ‘Behold he is a proper proselyte; for so we find that the mothers had performed ritual immersion but had not been circumcised.’ The Sages, however, said, ‘Whether he had performed ritual immersion but had not been circumcised or whether he had been circumcised but had not performed the prescribed ritual immersion, he is not a proper proselyte, unless he has been circumcised and has also performed the prescribed ritual immersion.’
Untrue. Jewish arguments carry no weight with Christians, some of them being contentious for the sake of contention, some too fanciful to even dwell on. They can't even take things at face value. A judge in jerusalem held that atheists could still be jewish, since God couldnt be properly comprehended. All understanding of God fell short, were approximations, amounting to worshipping soemthing that was not God, idolatry. He based his verdict on the commentaries of Maimonides/Rambam.

Here is direct teaching from Scripture on what was to be done to someone wishing to be a Jew:

Ex 12:48"But if a stranger sojourns with you, and celebrates the Passover to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near to celebrate it; and he shall be like a native of the land. But no uncircumcised person may eat of it.

The Judaizers felt this Scripture supported their view. However, Jesus taught that He was introducing a New Covenant, where sensitivity to God, of which circumcision was a foreshadowing, now required a circumcision of the heart, the removal of the thick insensitive skin of the heart. The spirit of the law was more important than the letter of the law., requiring their replacement.


Deuteronomy 4:2 You shall not add to the word that I command you, nor take from it, that you may keep the commandments of the Lord your God that I command you.

The Jerusalem Council had no authority to add or subtract from what God had commanded in the Torah, but they could interpret it and make rulings as to how it was intended to be followed. In other words, if they had said, "We think that God commanded in His Torah that all Gentiles were to be circumcised, but we think God was wrong and that it is too much to ask of them, so we won't require it" then the people would have tried to execute them as false teachers according to Deuteronomy 13. But instead they made a ruling, which I think was correct, that the Torah doesn't command all Gentiles to be circumcised. So when the Jerusalem Council ruled against circumcision being required for all Gentiles, they were not ruling against the Torah, but again man’s opinion about how the Torah should be kept. Like Jesus and Paul, they were upholding the Torah.

Not relevant. Jesus and Paul were upholding the Eternal Law. Torah was a watered down version, given to accommodate Israel’s hardness of heart, a concession to flesh.


Leviticus 19:18 You shall not take vengeance or bear a grudge against the sons of your own people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself: I am the Lord.

What is new in Jesus' command is that Leviticus says "as yourself" while Jesus said "as I have loved you". Jesus demonstrated his love for us by dying for us, but he also demonstrated how to love by keeping the Torah perfectly. Loving the Lord your God with all of you heart, soul, and mind is a lot easier said than done, so the rest of the commands in Torah are instructions for how to do that. But the key element that binds the laws together is love because without it following them is nothing and worse than that, it is a perversion of the Torah. There are a number of things that got improved in the Renewed Covenant, but how to live righteously and demonstrate our love to God remain the same, so the basic structure of God's instructions remained the same.

Please remember, Israel asked for the law, a written contract from God. Imagine how it would be if you promised to love your spouse unconditionally, and she responded by asking for a prenuptial contract to be written up, laying out your rights and obligations.


I contend that the topic of Mark 7 is whether ritual hand washing makes food that is normally kosher ritually unclean and never switches topic to annulling kosher laws. Mark 7:3-4 makes it clear they are talking about man-made traditions and in verses 6-8 Jesus criticizes them for following their own traditions rather than the commands for God, so it would make absolutely no sense for Jesus to set aside the commands of God a few verses later. Plus, doing so would disqualify him as the Messiah and be legitimate grounds for his execution under Deuteronomy 13. The parallel account in Matthew 15:19-20 further confirms that Jesus was still talking about eating with unwashed hands defiles someone. So Jesus ruled against a man-made tradition and upheld the Torah.

All foods declared, made, clean would mean ALL foods, since what is food, what are idols? What comes out of the heart is really what defiles a person. Jesus was removing the types the shadows, replacing them with the reality. Again what is the spirit of the law? Kosher laws were given to mark out and separate israel from her neighbors. They were a part of the bouquet of laws that made a distinction between jew and pagan and helped to isolate her. Food was used to distance her from her neighbours. Christ shed the minor distinctions: what would make God's people stand out from other nations was the love they had for each other. Food could not defile her, only bad deeds. Good deeds would distance her from the world if you want to think of it that way. You could say good deeds marked her out. Bad things coming out her heart would make her indistinguishable from unbelievers.

How would israel be a light to the world? In this passage, Paul never mentions observing kosher as a keeping of the Law:

Romans 2:17But if you bear the name “Jew” and rely upon the Law and boast in God, 18and know His will and approve the things that are essential, being instructed out of the Law, 19and are confident that you yourself are a guide to the blind, a light to those who are in darkness, 20a corrector of the foolish, a teacher of the immature, having in the Law the embodiment of knowledge and of the truth, 21you, therefore, who teach another, do you not teach yourself? You who preach that one shall not steal, do you steal? 22You who say that one should not commit adultery, do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples? 23You who boast in the Law, through your breaking the Law, do you dishonor God? 24For “THE NAME OF GOD IS BLASPHEMED AMONG THE GENTILES BECAUSE OF YOU,” just as it is written.
25For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a transgressor of the Law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision.


In fact doing bad deeds made circumcision, the most important ceremonial mark of the Jew, null and void. Bad deeds defiled the Jew, made him a Gentile, pagan!


If moral laws only concern man's relationship with man, then the first 4 of the 10 Commandments do not concern morality, including the law against idolatry. However, if moral laws also concern man's relationship with God, then all of His instructions are morally binding. Jesus was the giver of the Torah and thought it was important enough to follow perfectly, so I see no indication that he thought any less of the instructions that the Bible does not record him teaching specifically about. Jesus said that not the smallest letter would disappear from the law until heaven and earth passed away and that those who set aside the least of his instructions and taught others to do the same would be called least in the kingdom. When Jesus said not to hate, that was a perfect example of him setting up a fence around the law and in Matthew 23, he criticized the Pharisees for not being strict enough. All of the previous covenants back through Adam have been cumulative, so you're going to need a better reason for why this one should be an exception, especially because Jeremiah 31:31-34 states that the Renewed Covenant involves the law being written on our hearts.

Again, Jesus was speaking about the eternal law.


Faith has always been about trust and loyalty, but my point still remains that faith is the one and only way in which anyone, including Abraham, is justified.

Loyalty is always fully expressed:

in word, confession, at all times
in action, when called for

One could say that God's’ call is a certain event, it is not a question of if it will come but when it will come.


The promises that God made are not depended on our actions and we can not make God a liar. His promises hold true today the same as on the day that He made them. And even if I were to grant that the covenant was annulled, it was renewed.

Like you renew your insurance policy? All things remaining the same except for the period of validity? Not true, the document was jettisoned, a better one put into force, by Christ’s death.

Galatians 3:1You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified?


If someone offered to pay for every library fine you got, you would not be free from that law, but from the penalty of that law. In much the same way, when Jesus paid the penalty for our sins/breaking the law, he did not set us free from having to obey the law, but only the penalty or condemnation of the law. As such, being under grace does not mean we free to sin/break the law. Paul continues this idea in Romans 7, where the when wife's husband dies, she is not set free from having to obey any of the other laws of the Torah, but rather she is only set from from the aspect of the law that would penalize her if she had joined to another man. In Romans 7:5-14, Paul was talking about the capacity of the Torah to stir up sin in an individual, but he doesn't blame the Torah, but rather the fault is with ourselves.

Wrong metaphor. The verse specifically says Christ as the rightful representative of all humanity, died, breaking the obligations of all men to law.

Romans 7:1Or do you not know, brethren (for I am speaking to those who know the law), that the law has jurisdiction over a person as long as he lives? 2For the married woman is bound by law to her husband while he is living; but if her husband dies, she is released from the law concerning the husband. 3So then, if while her husband is living she is joined to another man, she shall be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from the law, so that she is not an adulteress though she is joined to another man.
4Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ, so that you might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God.


Romans 7:7a What then shall we say? That the law is sin? By no means!

Romans 7:12 So the law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good. 13 Did that which is good, then, bring death to me? By no means!

Romans 7:22 For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being,

Further confirmation that the law, properly understood, was a delight.

Again the Eternal Law, the law of God, is being discussed. good and holy, but unable to save, make a person a blessing to the world, because of the weakness of the flesh. God’s promise to Abraham was finally fulfilled in the sending of Christ, through whom the Spirit was released. enabling men to have life, energising to empowerment to bless the world.


Circumcision was also commanded before the Torah was given at Mt. Sinai, but it was only commanded to Abraham and those born into his house or bought with money:

Genesis 17:12-14 He who is eight days old among you shall be circumcised. Every male throughout your generations, whether born in your house or bought with your money from any foreigner who is not of your offspring, 13 both he who is born in your house and he who is bought with your money, shall surely be circumcised. So shall my covenant be in your flesh an everlasting covenant. 14 Any uncircumcised male who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin shall be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant.”

Another law that foreshadowed the holiness, undefileness if you wish, that separated God’s People from the rest of the world.


Acts 10:28 And he said to them, “You yourselves know how unlawful it is for a Jew to associate with or to visit anyone of another nation, but God has shown me that I should not call any person common or unclean.

These laws that Peter was violating in Galatians 2 are not found anywhere in the Torah, but are man-made traditions and customs, so again the the Torah is consistently upheld while man-made traditions are ruled against. I see nothing that indicates to me that they were eating anything other than kosher food. If you're being grafted into Judaism, one of your first concerns should be to learn what God has commanded His followers to do so that you can obey Him and avoid needlessly offending other members of your religion.

Yet Paul criticised Peter. If your contention is that Peter did no wrong, why was he confronted and criticised?


Perhaps "complete" would have been a better word choice. Without understanding Christ's atoning work on the cross, Jews had an incomplete understanding of God's plan of salvation, but completing this understanding does not change it from Judaism. That would be like expecting Jesus to start a new religion at his second coming or if Islam were true expecting the Mahdi to start a new religion rather than being in fulfillment of Islam.

Zacharias and Elizabeth were found righteous, so the law was complete for its purpose. It was still an inferior solution. Jesus did not start a new religion, He just brought reality to the types and foreshadowing of the existing one. Why would anyone go back to steam engines after benefiting from oil engines? Christ is of no benefit for people who adhere to the old covenant.

Soyeong
12-26-2014, 11:16 AM
Does Mark 7:19 declare all foods to be clean?

The context of Mark 7 is stated here:

Mark 7:3-4 (The Pharisees and all the Jews do not eat unless they give their hands a ceremonial washing, holding to the tradition of the elders. 4 When they come from the marketplace they do not eat unless they wash. And they observe many other traditions, such as the washing of cups, pitchers and kettles.)

The Pharisees had many traditions that went beyond what is found in the Bible, that they followed so that food that was normally clean wouldn’t become unclean. So their objection in verse 5 was not that the disciples were breaking dietary laws found in the Torah, but that they were becoming ritually unclean by eating bread with unwashed hands.

Mark 7:16 “Whoever has ears to hear, let them hear.”

This phrase in verse 16 was commonly used to indicate the end of a parable, and indeed the disciples asked Jesus about the meaning of the parable in verse 17, so the parable must have been verse 15.

Mark 7:15 Nothing outside a person can defile them by going into them. Rather, it is what comes out of a person that defiles them.”

Jesus used a figurative parable about moral purity to contrast it with the issue of ritual purity. It’s not eating with unwashed hands that defiles a person, but about immoral thoughts and actions.

Matthew 15:19-20 For out of the heart come evil thoughts-murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander. These are what defile a person; but eating with unwashed hands does not defile them.

The conclusion of the parallel account in Matthew 15 makes it clear that Jesus was still talking in contrast to ritual hand washing and never switched topics to eating unclean meat. So the hypocrisy of the Pharisees was that they were out of balance by being more concerned with their own traditions governing ritual purity than with what God said about moral purity. By adding their own traditions on top of what the Torah said they were obscuring it and completely missing the moral teaching. In verses 6-13, Jesus criticized them for setting aside the commands of God in favor of keeping their traditions, so it would have been very hypocritical if Jesus had turned around and set aside the commands of God a few verses later and declared everything was permissible to eat. That would have immediately disqualified him from being the Messiah and caused the Pharisees to try to kill him.

Deuteronomy 13:1-5 If a prophet, or one who foretells by dreams, appears among you and announces to you a sign or wonder, 2 and if the sign or wonder spoken of takes place, and the prophet says, “Let us follow other gods” (gods you have not known) “and let us worship them,” 3 you must not listen to the words of that prophet or dreamer. The LORD your God is testing you to find out whether you love him with all your heart and with all your soul. 4 It is the LORD your God you must follow, and him you must revere. Keep his commands and obey him; serve him and hold fast to him. 5 That prophet or dreamer must be put to death for inciting rebellion against the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt and redeemed you from the land of slavery. That prophet or dreamer tried to turn you from the way the LORD your God commanded you to follow. You must purge the evil from among you.

Any prophet who teaches God’s people to go against God’s commands is by definition a false prophet. Christians who claim that Jesus tried to turn the people from the way that God commanded them to follow are one of the biggest reasons why religious Jews reject him today.

Matthew 5:17-19 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Again, I have trouble reconciling these verses with the claim that Jesus was setting aside commands of God in Mark 7:19. Even if you think the Resurrection did away with the Law, this was said before that happened.

We still consider certain foods to be unclean, we just disagree about which ones they are. In Leviticus 11 and Deuteronomy 14, God told the Jews which things were permissible to eat as food and which things weren’t, so they didn’t even consider the things that weren’t to be in the same category as food, in a similar way that we don’t consider the meat of rats, bats, snakes, lizards, vultures, humans, etc. to be food. So when Jews talk about eating from the category of things that are food, it would be a mistake to assume they are also talking about eating unclean animals, unless it is specifically mentioned. It’s important to note that the Greek word koinais (“common”) is used in reference to manmade traditions and does not connote the same thing as the Greek word for what God has declared to be “unclean”, so there is no indication the food mentioned in Mark 7 is anything other than what the Torah permits Jews to eat.

There is some debate around the proper translation of Mark 7:19b. Some translators say it is parenthetical by Mark or Jesus, but it is important to note that there is nothing in the Greek that is anything like “thus he declared”, so is something they added. The Greek literally had “cleaning all foods” or “purging all foods”.

19 because it doth not enter into his heart, but into the belly, and into the drain it doth go out, purifying all the meats. –YLT

The discussion in Mark 7 surrounds Jesus’ disciples not observing the traditional hand washing before eating bread that was instituted by the Pharisees. Jesus criticized them for being strict about ritual purity while at the same time neglecting concern over moral purity. They are unbalanced over something that ends up in the toilet anyway. On the other hand, the issue of moral purity does not pass through the digestive tract and out into the toilet, and it is that which defiles the heart.

However you interpret it, it’s important to keep the context in mind. Did Jesus, a devout Jew who was sinless and kept the Torah perfectly, make a radical statement that was against God’s commands that would have sent shockwaves through his audience, but which no one seemed to notice? Or did Jesus simply point out that their concern for ritual purity wasn’t balanced by their concern for moral purity?

footwasher
12-26-2014, 04:30 PM
Acts 10:***9On the next day, as they were on their way and approaching the city, Peter went up on the housetop about the sixth hour to pray. 10But he became hungry and was desiring to eat; but while they were making preparations, he fell into a trance; 11and he saw the sky opened up, and an object like a great sheet coming down, lowered by four corners to the ground, 12and there were in it all kinds of four-footed animals and crawling creatures of the earth and birds of the air. 13A voice came to him, “Get up, Peter, kill and eat!” 14But Peter said, “By no means, Lord, for I have never eaten anything unholy and unclean.” 15Again a voice came to him a second time, “What God has cleansed, no longer consider unholy.” 16This happened three times, and immediately the object was taken up into the sky.

Soyeong
12-27-2014, 12:16 AM
Breaking news! God never intended to give Israel any Law:

Jeremiah 7:22Thus says the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel, "Add your burnt offerings to your sacrifices and eat flesh. 22"For I did not speak to your fathers, or command them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings and sacrifices. 23"But this is what I commanded them, saying, 'Obey My voice, and I will be your God, and you will be My people; and you will walk in all the way which I command you, that it may be well with you.'…

No, God still told them to walk in all the way which He had commanded them, but on the day He brought them out of the land of Egypt, He did not give them commands concerning burnt offering and sacrifices.


Misdirection. The Judaizers were not forcing their own traditions or interpretations on the Gentiles. They were forcing circumcision, plainly mandatory in the old covenant, not open to be interpreted or rationalised away.

Jews argue that Moses gave an oral law, and to that extent I agree because many of the laws, such as the command to wear tassels need clarification as to how exactly they should to be followed. How long should they be? What other colors should be used? How many knots should they have? How should the knows be tied? Or what counts as working the Sabbath? It would have been natural for the Israelites to have asked Moses for these sort of clarifications, so Moses must have started some traditions for how to correctly obey the Torah, but I find it doubtful that the traditions we have today match the ones Moses created. In any case, the Jews thought their traditions traced back to Moses and were even more important than the written law of the Torah because you couldn't follow the written law if you didn't have the oral law to tell you how it was correctly supposed to be followed. So all of this was wrapped up in their concept of what they thought it meant to follow the Laws of Moses and what they were wanting Gentiles to obey in Acts 15:1.

As I pointed out before, nowhere does the Torah say what Gentiles needed to do to become proselytes and nowhere does it say that all Gentiles needed to become circumcised, so that was part of their traditions. If you want to insist that the Torah makes it mandatory for all Gentiles to become circumcised, then you need to cite chapter and verse because I tell you it's not there.


Not really. OT saints never had God staying, making His dwelling, with them. Emmanuel, God with us, happened only with the sending of Christ.

Are you trying to tell me that Abraham had no relationship with God? Faith is the building block of relationships and when we trust God and are loyal to Him, we build a relationship with him. God doesn't need to dwell with us in order for that to happen, but in any case, it is false that God did not dwell with us before the time of Christ.

Exodus 29:44-46 So I will consecrate the tent of meeting and the altar and will consecrate Aaron and his sons to serve me as priests. 45 Then I will dwell among the Israelites and be their God. 46 They will know that I am the Lord their God, who brought them out of Egypt so that I might dwell among them. I am the Lord their God.

Furthermore, John claims that Jesus was the same being who created man, who walked with Adam, who closes the ark, and who gave the Torah.


Untrue. Jewish arguments carry no weight with Christians, some of them being contentious for the sake of contention, some too fanciful to even dwell on. They can't even take things at face value. A judge in jerusalem held that atheists could still be jewish, since God couldnt be properly comprehended. All understanding of God fell short, were approximations, amounting to worshipping soemthing that was not God, idolatry. He based his verdict on the commentaries of Maimonides/Rambam.

Here is direct teaching from Scripture on what was to be done to someone wishing to be a Jew:

Ex 12:48"But if a stranger sojourns with you, and celebrates the Passover to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near to celebrate it; and he shall be like a native of the land. But no uncircumcised person may eat of it.

I didn't quote the Jewish argument as an authority on the matter, but to point out that what was required for Gentiles to become proselytes was an arguable matter of human opinion. Exodus 12:48 says nothing about becoming a Jew or requiring all Gentiles to be circumcised. The context is about Passover restrictions and it only says that those Gentiles who wanted to eat of the lamb needed to be circumcised. Gentiles were free to participate in God's other feasts without being circumcised.


Not relevant. Jesus and Paul were upholding the Eternal Law. Torah was a watered down version, given to accommodate Israel’s hardness of heart, a concession to flesh.

The Jews considered the Torah to be eternal, and the eternal law could not be different from the Torah because they had no authority to add or subtract from the Law. Jesus could not have taught against following the commands in the Torah without disqualifying himself as the Messiah, and in fact, he warned that those who did would be called least in the kingdom. But even if the Eternal Law were something different from the God's Torah, the Jerusalem council ruled in favor of both against man-made traditions and very consistently ruled in favor of both.

Is it so hard to take a step back and try to interpret the Bible through the lens of how the Torah is described in the Psalms and see if it doesn't make more sense? They consistently saw it as a delight and a guide and not as anything negative. Please quote where the Bible describes all of the laws in the Torah as something that is watered down to accommodate Israel's hardness of heart. And if it is the watered down version, then how much more would the full version be if not to exceed the requirements of the Torah?


Please remember, Israel asked for the law, a written contract from God. Imagine how it would be if you promised to love your spouse unconditionally, and she responded by asking for a prenuptial contract to be written up, laying out your rights and obligations.

Exodus 19 3-8a while Moses went up to God. The Lord called to him out of the mountain, saying, “Thus you shall say to the house of Jacob, and tell the people of Israel: 4 You yourselves have seen what I did to the Egyptians, and how I bore you on eagles' wings and brought you to myself. 5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey my voice and keep my covenant, you shall be my treasured possession among all peoples, for all the earth is mine; 6 and you shall be to me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation. These are the words that you shall speak to the people of Israel.” 7 So Moses came and called the elders of the people and set before them all these words that the Lord had commanded him. 8 All the people answered together and said, “All that the Lord has spoken we will do.”

Even if it was as you say and they asked God for instructions for how to show their love to Him, it would be good to go beyond that, but following those instructions would be the least they could do. And even if other people had asked for those instructions and you were under no obligation to follow them, they would still be the least you could do if you wanted to show your love to God.


All foods declared, made, clean would mean ALL foods, since what is food, what are idols? What comes out of the heart is really what defiles a person. Jesus was removing the types the shadows, replacing them with the reality. Again what is the spirit of the law? Kosher laws were given to mark out and separate israel from her neighbors. They were a part of the bouquet of laws that made a distinction between jew and pagan and helped to isolate her. Food was used to distance her from her neighbours. Christ shed the minor distinctions: what would make God's people stand out from other nations was the love they had for each other. Food could not defile her, only bad deeds. Good deeds would distance her from the world if you want to think of it that way. You could say good deeds marked her out. Bad things coming out her heart would make her indistinguishable from unbelievers.

I made a post that goes into Mark 7 in more detail, but I'll clarify that there are different forms of purity being discussed. It was a sin to eat unclean animals whereas it is was not a sin to become ritually unclean. So when Jesus became ritually unclean when he was touched by the woman who was bleeding (Luke 8:43) he was not sinning. Someone could become ritually unclean by being in the same room as a dead body, then go home and eat a kosher meal, making it ritually unclean because they touched it, but they would still not be sinning. So the topic of Mark 7 is about ritual purity laws and about no food being ritually unclean even if it is eaten with unwashed hands. The word used is not the same one that is used for when God declared certain animals to be unclean.


In fact doing bad deeds made circumcision, the most important ceremonial mark of the Jew, null and void. Bad deeds defiled the Jew, made him a Gentile, pagan!

Circumcision is an outward sign of, among other things, a circumcised heart and it is the cumcised heart that is more important than the outward sign, but Paul was not saying that any Jew who did a bad deed became a Gentile. When David sinner, he didn't become a Gentile either, and if he did, then there would have been no more Jews left because all of them had sinned. There is no such them in the Old Testament, so you're taking it a little too far.


Again, Jesus was speaking about the eternal law.

Matthew 5:17-18 Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

The eternal law just is the Law of Moses and in any case, the phrase the "Law or the Prophets" only ever refers to the Law of Moses. What would be the point in Jesus saying the eternal law is eternal? When Jesus was referring to the "least of these commands", which commands qualify as that? You really need to check the lens through which you are interpreting the Bible, so please try to consider the implications of what it would mean for Jesus to be talking about Law of Moses here.


Loyalty is always fully expressed:

in word, confession, at all times
in action, when called for

One could say that God's’ call is a certain event, it is not a question of if it will come but when it will come.

Having faith is demonstrating in action that you trust someone, but my point still remains that Abraham was justified by faith just like everyone else.


Like you renew your insurance policy? All things remaining the same except for the period of validity? Not true, the document was jettisoned, a better one put into force, by Christ’s death.

Galatians 3:1You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified?

God is not a man that He should lie. If God can lie about His promises to them, then He can lie about His promises to you.

Galatians 3:7 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify[c] the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “In you shall all the nations be blessed.”

Just a few verses later, Paul holds God to His promise. But you missed the point of Galatians because they were trying to become justified by works when they were already justified by faith, which isn't what I'm talking about.


Wrong metaphor. The verse specifically says Christ as the rightful representative of all humanity, died, breaking the obligations of all men to law.

Jesus paying the penalty for sins doesn't free us to sin, but it does cause us to no longer be condemned by our sins, so it puts us under grace. The woman is still follow the law when she gets married to her second husband, so Paul is continuing the thought from Romans 6:14-15 of dying to the aspect of the law that penalizes her. A woman whose husband dies in not freed from any other law in the Torah, so if you don't like Paul's metaphor, you can take it up with him. He tried several times to make sure you understand that by no means does being under grace mean you're free to break the Torah, that by no means is the Torah is sin, and that the Torah is holy, good, and just, but you shoehorn every attempt into the "eternal law" . Open your eyes, he was trying to make sure that you don't misunderstand him in the very way that you're doing. The answer to bad religion is not no religion, but good religion. In the same way, the answer to following the Torah in the wrong way (under mountains of oral law) is not to stop following it, but to start following it in the right way, and Jesus said he came to teach us.


Again the Eternal Law, the law of God, is being discussed. good and holy, but unable to save, make a person a blessing to the world, because of the weakness of the flesh. God’s promise to Abraham was finally fulfilled in the sending of Christ, through whom the Spirit was released. enabling men to have life, energising to empowerment to bless the world.

It sounds a lot like you're describing the Torah as it was meant to be understood.



Another law that foreshadowed the holiness, undefileness if you wish, that separated God’s People from the rest of the world.

Indeed, but the point again is that circumcision was never required of all Gentiles.


Yet Paul criticised Peter. If your contention is that Peter did no wrong, why was he confronted and criticised?

I never said that Peter did no wrong, but rather that the the issue at hand had nothing to do with kosher laws. The group was saying that Gentiles had to follow the Laws of Moses as they understood them in order to be saved. Up until Peter's vision in Act 10, only Jews had been saved, so it wasn't entirely unreasonable for them to think Gentiles had to become Jews to be saved, but it was nevertheless wrong. Peter's actions of moving to sit with the circumcision group sent the message to the Gentiles that they weren't actually saved until they had been circumcised, which was contrary to the gospel message.


Zacharias and Elizabeth were found righteous, so the law was complete for its purpose. It was still an inferior solution. Jesus did not start a new religion, He just brought reality to the types and foreshadowing of the existing one. Why would anyone go back to steam engines after benefiting from oil engines? Christ is of no benefit for people who adhere to the old covenant.

The Old Covenant in not the same as the God's instructions in the Torah, but is a contract to follow them. We live righteously through following God's instructions and Paul said in Romans 6:16 that we are are to offer ourselves as obedient slaves to God's instructions, which leads to righteousness. It is good to live righteously/obey God's instructions regardless of any contract to do so. Zacharias and Elizabeth lived righteously as an outflowing of their faith and love for God and it would be good for us to live in the same way.

The Renewed Covenant offers things that are indeed superior to the Old Covenant, such as having a far superior mediator, but it does not change God's instructions for how to live righteously.


Acts 10:***9On the next day, as they were on their way and approaching the city, Peter went up on the housetop about the sixth hour to pray. 10But he became hungry and was desiring to eat; but while they were making preparations, he fell into a trance; 11and he saw the sky opened up, and an object like a great sheet coming down, lowered by four corners to the ground, 12and there were in it all kinds of four-footed animals and crawling creatures of the earth and birds of the air. 13A voice came to him, “Get up, Peter, kill and eat!” 14But Peter said, “By no means, Lord, for I have never eaten anything unholy and unclean.” 15Again a voice came to him a second time, “What God has cleansed, no longer consider unholy.” 16This happened three times, and immediately the object was taken up into the sky.

I take Peter's response in his vision as confirmation that he did not understand what Jesus said in Mark 7 to mean he was free to eat unclean animals. Furthermore, I take it as confirmation that he was still Torah observant, even after Jesus' death and resurrection. Peter gives the interpretation of his vision in verse 28:

Acts 10:28 He said to them: “You are well aware that it is against our law for a Jew to associate with or visit a Gentile. But God has shown me that I should not call anyone impure or unclean.

Visions have figurative meanings and with no other vision in the Bible do we reinterpret them to mean something other than the interpretation that is given or reinterpret it to have its literal meaning, so I see no good reason to do so.

footwasher
12-27-2014, 11:16 AM
So it boils down to interpreting text and as some wise person noted, we can make scripture say anything we want it to say, and the arguments will continue until the cows come home, without anything concrete being decided conclusively.

Really the only way to resolve the issue is what i call the Silver Blaze Test I have often used on this forum before the website crashed and still use in other websites, which can be described in one sentence: the test to check if anything in the solution has been left unexplained.

http://www.christianforums.com/t7827578/

In the eponymous test, anybody could have been a suspect, all had motives, all lacked alibis, all had the opportunity. What stuck out, could not be explained, was why the dog did not bark in the night. during the crime. Every interpretation hadd some unresolved issues, and as long as that question is unanswered, the explanation is not water tight.

Really I’d rather spend my time listening to sermons by rabbis, available on website articles, Youtube and podcasts, for the insights they possess, since we ARE dealing with Jewish ideas and placed in Jewish documents. Western scholars labour hard to climb into the skins of the writers of the biblical texts, but it is really advantageous to be actual participants in the scenarios depicted, to understand those ideas.

For example, in a talk by a rabbi on Youtube, he explains that the Old Testament, vast in volume and scope as it is , is actually the equivalent of the notes taken at lectures that are heard in a class. In other words, there is a body of oral teaching preserved and communicated of which the Old Testament is maybe an outline . To explain, in the situation of a man who divorces his wife, who then remarries, who is again divorced by her second husband, there is a prohibition of the original couple remarrying. Now the Old Testament has no description of what constitutes a marriage, so finding a practical application for the law can be quite difficult when the basis of the relationship is not established. Marriage, therefore, must be defined in some other source where the definition of the relationship is spelled out, and that source is the oral teaching, which Jews believe are the instructions God gave to Moses orally, most of which has been later formalised in the form of Talmud, the recording in text of those oral teachings.


Christians therefore can be limited in their understanding of the Old testament, on account of their non use of Talmud, especially those following the tradition of sola scriptura.

This is where the Silver Blaze Test can be of great help. Sufficient information is available in the text to form outlines which can then be offered up for testing (as through fire). Jigsaw pieces can sometimes fit into places with a certain degree of accuracy, but one or two locking tabs may not fall into place. Therefore we can reasonably assume that the solution that has the most interlocking, matching, pieces is the one that is the closest to the solving of the puzzle.

The Bible is a rich tapestry of information, ideas and themes, each requiring huge amounts of words to describe intricacies and details, just as a fine watch would require reams of pages to describe its innermost workings. Imagine the mass of information that can be generated if competing interpretations are then offered .


Then again, we can safely assume that by using outlines of the understanding of the whole body of work, and the various themes, or as biblical scholars would label them, doctrines, offerings that are outlandish and skewed can be filtered out, rejected relatively easily.

Before offering an outline of the system or of some of the doctrines, it would be helpful to ask for a key sample, one that can maybe reveal gaping weaknesses in the views that we wish to support.

It would seem that the content of the Gospel would not be one of those key doctrines that can be used in this test, since one expects a strong understanding of this doctrine, and consequently and logically, a reasonably close consensus about what that content is. Surprisingly, this is not so, with many believers actually unsure about what the Gospel really is. Possibly, in the haste to get into the meat and potatoes of essential doctrine, the foundation has been not relatively well laid out.

I believe as we try to explain what we believe the Gospel, the Good News, to be, we will be surprised at the volatility of what we believe to be a firm and fixed idea, and this unexpected discovery may cause us to rethink our entire theology.

If you don’t believe me, go ahead and take the test. If you had two minutes to explain the Gospel to a person you meet on a plane, with time to kill, what would you, Soyeong, tell him?

I WILL return to answering all your objections once this small exercise is completed.

Kamsahamnida in advance.

Soyeong
12-27-2014, 08:05 PM
If you don’t believe me, go ahead and take the test. If you had two minutes to explain the Gospel to a person you meet on a plane, with time to kill, what would you, Soyeong, tell him?

Acts 13:32-33a And we bring you the good news that what God promised to the fathers, 33 this he has fulfilled to us their children by raising Jesus,

The good news is about the life, death, resurrection, ascension, exaltation, and return of Jesus, but to fully understand why that is good news, you need to know what all God had promised to the fathers, what was fulfilled by raising Jesus, and what the prophets said about it, which is much more in depth than can be covered in two minutes. The short of it is that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God and that we are therefore subject to everlasting destruction away from His presence. But God so loved the world that he gave His son, Jesus, as an atoning sacrifice for our sins in order to reconcile us to Him. He died on the cross, but was raised on the third day, conquering death, so that all who repent of their sins, declare him Lord, and trust in him for salvation will have eternal life.

Acts 3:17-26 “And now, brothers, I know that you acted in ignorance, as did also your rulers. 18 But what God foretold by the mouth of all the prophets, that his Christ would suffer, he thus fulfilled. 19 Repent therefore, and turn back, that your sins may be blotted out, 20 that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, and that he may send the Christ appointed for you, Jesus, 21 whom heaven must receive until the time for restoring all the things about which God spoke by the mouth of his holy prophets long ago. 22 Moses said, ‘The Lord God will raise up for you a prophet like me from your brothers. You shall listen to him in whatever he tells you. 23 And it shall be that every soul who does not listen to that prophet shall be destroyed from the people.’ 24 And all the prophets who have spoken, from Samuel and those who came after him, also proclaimed these days. 25 You are the sons of the prophets and of the covenant that God made with your fathers, saying to Abraham, ‘And in your offspring shall all the families of the earth be blessed.’ 26 God, having raised up his servant, sent him to you first, to bless you by turning every one of you from your wickedness.”

footwasher
12-27-2014, 10:02 PM
Interpreting the massive amount of information offered by the text can lead to lapses, as already noted. If the historian gets it right, the grammarian may fail. Even if the latter succeeds, the theologian can trip, and so on and so forth, down the line, with the commentators, the preacher and finally, the end user, those who warm the pews, each capable of being a weak link.

An important example is in Romans 7, where some commentators have finally settled on a correct view, but the preacher still is not in the loop, as seen in the understanding you have of the text.

All men are under a law, the Jew having the Torah given by God, and the rest of the world a code, derived from common morality or conscience. Paul says that if the Gentile meets all the requirements of Torah without the Torah, will he not benefit from the blessings promised in the Torah, will not God find him acceptable? In other words, those who are without the law, but meet all the requirements of the law through moral living will receive all the conditional blessings of Deuteronomy 28.


1“Now it shall be, if you diligently obey the LORD your God, being careful to do all His commandments which I command you today, the LORD your God will set you high above all the nations of the earth. 2“All these blessings will come upon you and overtake you if you obey the LORD your God:



We know this condition came about through Adam’s decision to know good and evil, hebrewism for choosing accountability, parallels in knowing sweet from the bitter, curd from milk. Minors are not accountable to law till they develop judgmental ability, are able to make informed decisions. God did not want Adam to choose accountability, ability to discern moral action , because the flesh could not deliver what the moral sensibility required of him.

In other words, Adam, our father, was qualified to represent all mankind by virtue of his sinless state , was also responsible for marrying mankind to law.

Christ in His sinless state, a second Adam, was similarly qualified to represent all mankind, died, carrying all mankind which was married to life lived under law, to the grave.

The text says those who are in Chriist are married to him, a shortened form of stating we are married to a resurrected life, the life of NOT knowing good and evil, since without law there is no transgression, the life of NOT under law. Are we then to continue to serve our fleshly desires? No because living in the flesh is the opposite state of living in the spirit. It is a way of death by virtue of it being a way of not living. That which lives bears fruit and that life is available to those who live with favour, grace, the gift of the indwelling Deity.


That is why Jesus said the least in the kingdom of God is greater than the greatest ever born of woman, John the Baptist. No one before John, and even him, had the indwelling of the Godhead.


Summary
1 before the law was given, there was no transgression, still men died. Conclusion God still held men responsible.
2 death referred to both inability to live the life adam was created to live and the inevitability of the end of the temporal life.
3 Torah changed nothing, since the law which was meant to give life could only give death, inability to live the life Adam was supposed to live.
4 when Christ died on the cross, humanity tied to life under law died.
5 those who are in Christ are tied to the life under grace, since Christ was raised from the dead, carrying gifts , grace, for all men.


The Gospel therefore is that the Christ whom God sent is able to save us from our sins: the life that offered no opportunity to live the life Adam was created to live.


The first century Jew knew what was involved and what the terms and conditions in God's plans were:

Matthew 1:21
"She will bear a Son; and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins."

See how most translations get it wrong, and how a denigrated translation thats was labored on to give a historical basis to the text to the common person, gets it right:


Romans 7:4 ►

Parallel Verses
New International Version
So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God.

New Living Translation
So, my dear brothers and sisters, this is the point: You died to the power of the law when you died with Christ. And now you are united with the one who was raised from the dead. As a result, we can produce a harvest of good deeds for God.

English Standard Version
Likewise, my brothers, you also have died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to him who has been raised from the dead, in order that we may bear fruit for God.

New American Standard Bible
Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ, so that you might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God.





Romans 7 The Message (MSG)
Torn Between One Way and Another
7 1-3 You shouldn’t have any trouble understanding this, friends, for you know all the ins and outs of the law—how it works and how its power touches only the living. For instance, a wife is legally tied to her husband while he lives, but if he dies, she’s free. If she lives with another man while her husband is living, she’s obviously an adulteress. But if he dies, she is quite free to marry another man in good conscience, with no one’s disapproval.
4-6 So, my friends, this is something like what has taken place with you. When Christ died he took that entire rule-dominated way of life down with him and left it in the tomb, leaving you free to “marry” a resurrection life and bear “offspring” of faith for God. For as long as we lived that old way of life, doing whatever we felt we could get away with, sin was calling most of the shots as the old law code hemmed us in. And this made us all the more rebellious. In the end, all we had to show for it was miscarriages and stillbirths. But now that we’re no longer shackled to that domineering mate of sin, and out from under all those oppressive regulations and fine print, we’re free to live a new life in the freedom of God.

NewCovBeliever
02-11-2015, 08:39 PM
The Decalogue, and all other laws given to Moses at Horeb, was binding on all Israelites in their covenant community. The Law saw its fulfilment in the true Israel of God, Jesus of Nazareth. All believers in Christ are part of His body, and are subjects in His New Covenant Kingdom (a Kingdom ratified by the blood of the King of Kings).

Truthseeker
02-12-2015, 03:01 PM
NewCovBeliever, welcome to Tweb!