Christianity and SRIs [Archive] - TheologyWeb Campus

BeHereNow

January 26th 2005, 11:06 PM

I've been curious about what Christians think with regards to SRIs (seretonin reuptake inhibitors), or anti-depressants.

It seems to me that this is mind-control in the most latent form. The sudden widespread ubiquity of these drugs implies two things to me:

1. Drug companies have forged a marketing alliance with doctors
2. Patients are trying to chop down weeds instead of pulling them at the root

From a Christian perspective, number 2 should be at the forefront of discussion. It is said that Jesus will give one joy, and that a Christian's life can be characterized with "jubilee" (if it weren't for churches, that word would be extinct). Christians often cite Jesus as their source of hope, the thing that pulls them from the mud.

When I was a Christian suffering from mood disorder, I was distressed by the fact that Jesus did not help me. I had a brief stint on Prozac, but ended up even more depressed due to my belief that Jesus should be my vitality. I felt like a traitor to Jesus for taking Prozac, but at the same time felt betrayed by him for not healing me.

I'm not saying that opinion was valid, and I'm not trying to point fingers or force conviction. Just want to get others' perspectives on the use of drugs to substitute what Jesus (allegedly) can do.

`Cheers`

chickenman

January 26th 2005, 11:10 PM

the data shows that ssri's work
just as well as any psychotherapy, and even better in combination with psychotherapy

Xavier

January 26th 2005, 11:14 PM

Huh? I guess I'm not following, but some of us were made with rather poor brain chemistry and thus rely on anti-depressants to function. Depression certainly didn't help my walk with Christ.

Faith may have helped me stay out of suicidal depression (thought not new, see Emile Durkheim). Faith may have helped me see that I needed help in the first place.

Depression is often not something can just "get ahold" of. Obviously, we want to deal with the roots. But if the weeds are suffocating, you've got to take care of them first.

Yours,
Xavier

Piebald

January 26th 2005, 11:25 PM

random, scattered, unorganized thoughts:

I've been curious about what Christians think with regards to SRIs (seretonin reuptake inhibitors), or anti-depressants.

It seems to me that this is mind-control in the most latent form. The sudden widespread ubiquity of these drugs implies two things to me:

1. Drug companies have forged a marketing alliance with doctors
2. Patients are trying to chop down weeds instead of pulling them at the root

I've been using Paxil to correct what I believe is a chemical imbalance. The brain is an organ like any other organ, a part of the body as much as our bones and flesh. It is just as vulnerable as our liver or kidneys. When your brain is damaged or 'malfunctioning' I see no reason to correct the problem using drugs. After using the Paxil I do not feel like I am in an altered state of consciousness but that I am in a right state of consciousness. That my mind is finally healthy. It's hard to explain what it is like, but before there was a 'heaviness' in my mind, like some kind of bleak opressive fog. It manifested itself in very intense feelings of social phobia, irrational fear of public places, etc. After being medicated with the drug the heaviness began to wear off. It's like I've woken up from a bad dream. Some people have bad experiences with drugs like Paxil but mine have been nothing but good. I think it is probably true that in general, as a culture, we over-drug ourselves and the drug company alliance with doctors is disturbing. People without insurance often become 'guinea pigs' for doctors who want to put them on experimental drugs just so they can gather the information about it. When I first "experimented" with Paxil I was surprised that my doctor could afford to give me "free samples" of it. After all, it's supposed to be medicine, not chocolate!

From a Christian perspective, number 2 should be at the forefront of discussion. It is said that Jesus will give one joy, and that a Christian's life can be characterized with "jubilee" (if it weren't for churches, that word would be extinct). Christians often cite Jesus as their source of hope, the thing that pulls them from the mud.

I would say that if a person substitutes drugs rather than God as their source of joy that they are in trouble. I have heard of and have known people who immediately start taking an anti-depressant after any kind of event in their life makes them unhappy. I suppose it is kind of like a mental hypochondria. That is a bad attitude as well as a dangerous one. You shouldn't mess around with these drugs as they can have dangerous side effects.

If you had a chronic mood disorder, however, I don't see why taking medication for it should have been a problem any more than taking medication for your colon or kidneys should have. Jesus does produce (and should produce) lots of joy in a believer's life. However, if the vehicle by which that joy is felt is imbalanced or damaged, this is going to be hard to experience. Prisoner of Azkaban is an awesome movie but it can't play in a broken DVD player.

...Just some thoughts . . .fire at will :shifty:

spiritmech

January 26th 2005, 11:36 PM

I'm on lexapro. I don't have a problem with it, personally. There's nothing in the Bible that says one should suffer needlessly.
SM

anthrogirl

January 26th 2005, 11:57 PM

I am currently in the process of installing an acupuncture program in my university's clinic to deal with anxiety/depression. Acupuncture can be very effective--in fact, I think it can be a good alternative to SSRIs/Rx, because the sufferer is intimately involved with their own healing.

okay, i guess that was a little off topic--sorry BHN

ag

learning

January 27th 2005, 12:12 AM

I know a good christian lady, she took in foster kids, adopted them. One son suffered with ADHD so bad, she prayed, tried the diet, prayed, tried special discipline, prayed, but one day her son said to her 'Why can't I be good, I want to be, but I can't.' (he was talking about how he'ld get hyper and unable to control himself, not about sin really, this was a kid) That did it, she took him to a Dr. and got him on Ritalin. (Now I know there are stories of how too many kids are on this, etc., but in this case this kid really did need it) The change in him was great! He could focus, control his thoughts and actions much better. (I heard another lady say it helped her son be able to see social cues that he was missing with his friends, so that he didn't act foolish or was so easily teased or made fun of without him realizing it. His social life improved, because the kids saw he saw what they were doing, stopped being made a 'joke' and earned their respect)

Anyways, this first mom, she thanks God for this drug. She said it was like 'glasses on the brain.' It helped him focus. Do we as Christians feel 'weak' or 'inferior' if we have to wear glasses? Maybe our society used to think that way, but hardly anymore. The same will work its way through for drugs for our brains. (already has, I believe, though society still has this stigma with 'mental weakness')

I see the descriptions that some of the people here are using to describe the thing that the drugs are doing for them are good. Of course, one has to be careful, sometimes, I've seen, Prosac or other drugs can do the opposite of what it was intended for (we knew a friend that got really hyper and scary on them, he picked up one of my kids when I was out for a walk and spun around and then talked real fast, and I just prayed silently and kept calm and told my husband about it. My husband said later it was the drug Prosac that just wasn't working right on this guy, - he went off it and got better, whew! and yet I know many Christians who are on it, good mothers, good friends, prayer warriors still, because it helps them to function).

I like to think of these things like my friend said, 'Like glasses for the brain.' It helps one focus, and where we direct that focus, for God, for healing, it is up to us, but the drugs help one get started, so I think they're OK. I've never had to take any, but I'm beginning to wonder if I should, the way I get depressed at times. I'm trying the herbal and vitamin route, even trying to be more consistent with that, and maybe exercise, and I guess I'll just see where this goes.

BeHereNow

January 27th 2005, 04:01 AM

Wow, lots of responses. Thanks for sharing.

As you probably picked up on, as a Christian I was conflicted by a steadfast belief in miraculous healing. I fully believed in Christ's ability to heal someone of physical problems, including chemical imbalances.

In retrospect, I see that this conflicting world view colluded with my imbalance, feeding off each other for intensity. While SRIs, in my scenario, proved entirely unhelpful, I also realize that there's no such thing as a cure-all remedy for any mass problem.

It's good to see others take a more balanced approach to balancing imbalances.

In Sanity..
BHN

Undomiel

January 27th 2005, 04:42 AM

My sister had advanced agoraphobia (Fear of everything - a multi-purpose panic disorder), that she learned was the result of several things. She had to work through those issues, one at a time, to resolve them before she was able to find healing. I think Jesus heals us in more ways than one. Miracles are always nice, but when the issue is ongoing and deep-seated, and as a result of life choices, its not resolvable in the same fashion as a miraculous healing would be. A miracle heals once, but an underlying problem that you are self-perpetuating, is not resolvable without a total mental and emotional workout. For example...

Let's say you were abused as a child. Eventually you begin to go around abusing other people - maybe not physically, but perhaps emotionally or mentally (or both or all three). You do not realize why you are doing it, or in some cases, that you're doing anything unusual. This creates a dichotomy in the mind of a christian. A warning signal that there's an underlying issue that needs to be dealt with goes off, and invariably points to one of the symptoms of the problem, requesting you resolve it so you can continue on your walk in Christ. If it's not dealt with, it festers, and all kinds of mental and emotional disorders arise out of it in addition to the issues you already had. These issues can be the result of poor diet, bad choices, experiences in your past, and they may work against you in tandem with other issues - social pressures, financial pressures, familial problems and so on.

My sister's agoraphobia was so bad, she wouldn't fly on planes, nor ride in cars with anyone but her husband, she wouldn't drive, she didn't like to go in crowded places, nor go to parties, nor social events of any kind. She was afraid of heights, afraid of the dark, afraid of storms, afraid of bugs, afraid of closed in places, afraid of what other people would think about her, and so forth. She became a prisoner in her own home. She wouldn't go outside. All of this stemmed from several issues in her life, some of which related to her rebellion against God's wisdom (eat properly and so forth). Before she became a christian, her first panic attacks started. At the time, the doctors didn't understand panic disorders nor had they categorized them as a branch of psychiatry, psychology and medicine that needed to be investigated. To solve her panic attacks, they would calm her down with massive doses of demerol, and give her tranquillizers to take home to help her sleep. She became addicted to the tranquillizers but the underlying problems were still there. It had a vicious cycle effect, one thing leading to the next, until she was a total mess, locked in her house, addicted to tranquillizers and no possible solution in sight.

When she became a christian, that changed, but the change was gradual. She'd already seen the bottomside of life, so her christian walk was the uphill battle to freedom from all the things that had made her so utterly miserable. This was necessary personal work. It required serious dedication because there were no doctors at the time that had even the foggiest notion what it was or how to treat it, and much of it was the result of issues she hadn't dealt with in her life, nor faced as potential problems until they had grown into massive phobias.

dizzle

January 27th 2005, 07:11 AM

I have to ditto the Christian responses so far. I had a stint with Serzone and it was badly needed. Since that time I had a very brief encounter with Zoloft, and its effects were horrible on me.

I do not run to meds as a first option. Or even a second..... in fact, it is an option of last resort. There have been many times in the years since my clinical depression when I thought I was getting close to having to make that trip to the doctor, but I zealously determined to do what I could to avoid that, to make sure that was the last resort, and I have successfully battled off any long term or debilitating episodes. However, at times I think I am too militant in this - I suffer regularly and intensely from depression but it lifts. But I just don't want to be on "maintenance" medication. It is my choice to struggle, but I wonder sometimes if I should

dizzle

January 27th 2005, 07:12 AM

and I mean NO condemnation of anyne who makes a different choice

Undomiel

January 27th 2005, 08:06 AM

and I mean NO condemnation of anyne who makes a different choice

Aye, some people are born with genetic abnormalities that only medicine or God can heal. Some are never healed, and that creates an atmosphere of doubt for the believer and an excuse to further criticize faith of any kind. Even eastern medicine understands the value of faith, hope and love, especially in the lives of those who are suffereing. I recall reading several articles that were not even remotely christian, regarding the healing of various life threatening illnesses, just by a change in mental outlook. Laughter, joy, kindness, gentleness, are all very healing. So there is alot to be said for how we approach our various problems as well.

When my mom was dieing, she lived in the house with us. She had advanced alzheimers, which required around the clock care. She had to be watched all the time, could no longer walk, was bed and wheelchair ridden, incontinent. She didn't remember any of our names, nor did she remember any of our faces (although she remembered my face more often than the other members of our family (she called me "lady" because I cared for her everyday, several times a day). Otherwise, she knew only God's name. She prayed incessantly, outloud and with fervor. She remembered His name, but no one elses. It was the most remarkable witness I've ever encountered. Having her with us, even under such depressing circumstances, enriched our lives in ways I can't even begin to list. I think that's true even when we are malfunctioning.

Alberta girl

January 27th 2005, 01:39 PM

I can only share my own experience. I fell into a depression brought on by exhaustion and severe dissappiontment. I went to the doctor, he prescribed a very mild temporary anti-depressant. I was about to take it but I had a meeting that night and decided to go to my meeting first. At my meeting a fellow who had just lost his young adult son to some viral disease was speaking. There was tremendous grief and pain, but he was there, sober, and sharing his gratitude that he was able to function through the pain and be useful to his family.

At that time I knew I could not take the drugs. As an alcoholic, I am prone to run from discomfort and emotional pain instead of working through it with God as my fortress. Instead I went to Him in prayer and submitted my self to His disipline, and asked Him how I was to respond to what was going on in my life. I found the results to be better for me because I was able to discover some root problems and find a contentment in my situation.

I believe it was right for me to to as I did at that time. In no way do I disaprove of others should they need medicine. My case was temporaray and not normal to my genreal personality. I have a pre-exisitng condition that makes pain and mood medicines somewhat dangerous to my ongoing sobriety. If it happenrd again, a slightly different situation perhaps, I would follow the same path. Perhaps in a different situation, I would indeed take the medicine.

learning

January 27th 2005, 06:51 PM

Aye, some people are born with genetic abnormalities that only medicine or God can heal. Some are never healed, and that creates an atmosphere of doubt for the believer and an excuse to further criticize faith of any kind. Even eastern medicine understands the value of faith, hope and love, especially in the lives of those who are suffereing. I recall reading several articles that were not even remotely christian, regarding the healing of various life threatening illnesses, just by a change in mental outlook. Laughter, joy, kindness, gentleness, are all very healing. So there is alot to be said for how we approach our various problems as well.

When my mom was dieing, she lived in the house with us. She had advanced alzheimers, which required around the clock care. She had to be watched all the time, could no longer walk, was bed and wheelchair ridden, incontinent. She didn't remember any of our names, nor did she remember any of our faces (although she remembered my face more often than the other members of our family (she called me "lady" because I cared for her everyday, several times a day). Otherwise, she knew only God's name. She prayed incessantly, outloud and with fervor. She remembered His name, but no one elses. It was the most remarkable witness I've ever encountered. Having her with us, even under such depressing circumstances, enriched our lives in ways I can't even begin to list. I think that's true even when we are malfunctioning.

What a wonderful story!

I remember working in a nursing home out west, and there was a lady who would knit stockings 'for the soldiers' (she thought it was still WW2) and yet she also still prayed, and she prayed for Billy Graham and all the other evangelists, and she'ld start with the Lord's prayer, but she'ld pray every night. Every night she'ld pray out loud before she went to bed, and it was a wonderful witness. I felt like she was holding these saints up to heaven, and have no doubt part of their effectiveness was because of hers and others prayers.

BeHereNow

January 27th 2005, 11:09 PM

dizzle

January 27th 2005, 11:20 PM

I refrain from almost all medication. But with these issues, I thinkas a society we turn too quickly to the quick fix - and I am cautious I am not doing that - I am seeking the balance and the blessing (yes our trials can be a blessing). I periodically get emails of thank yous from others who are just scared or embarassed to be open about such struggles - though of course I get the opportunistic mocking when someone decides they are going to look for a way to insult me where they think it will hurt

BeHereNow

January 28th 2005, 12:38 AM

Dee Dee-

It's interesting that you refer to it as a blessing - an observation I can fully appreciate. Since my mood disorder has been absent, I sometimes find my temperament too milquetoast, sometimes longing for just a few moments of mania to remember what it was like.

You (and others) might find this book interesting:

Touched with Fire (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/068483183X/qid=1106886894/sr=2-3/ref=pd_ka_b_2_3/104-2295604-7563133)

It's a book, written by bipolar disorder authority Kay Redfield Jamison, that talks about bpd and prolific artists who have suffered, or been blessed, by it. I haven't read it, but I've been wanting to.

Sorry to hear some people make jabs at you regarding this topic. It's good to have thick skin, isn't it?

TCapp

January 28th 2005, 03:00 AM

Hi there. Haven't read through the whole thread yet, but I wanted to say something. Jesus is "supposed" to be my "light" but I suffer from Seasonal Affective Disorder. I live at practically 60°N and thus my exposure to sunlight is limited during the winter.

I suffer a fairly moderate SAD, resulting in constant fatigue, mental fog (I can't concentrate very well and my thought processes are jumbled and slow), a craving for carbohydrates, wanting to sleep for 18 hours a day (I wish I could) and so on. My relationship with Jesus does not automatically produce less melatonin and more serotonin for me. I need my light box in order for that to happen. I do not feel less a Christian because of it.

I have to admit though, because my thinking is distorted by my SAD and dysthymia, I am not often sure what God is doing or if He's the least bit interested in me... but that's just my not-quite-functioning-at-top-speed brain, not reality. I anticipate feeling better again with the advent of spring and summer. Not only feeling better, but having sharper mental powers again.

Now having said all that, I think it's the same with anti-depressants. Being depressed does not necessarily have anything to do with being Christian or not - just being human with brains that fail sometimes.

dizzle

January 28th 2005, 07:13 AM

Dee Dee-

Sorry to hear some people make jabs at you regarding this topic. It's good to have thick skin, isn't it?

True, it doesn't bother me too much. When I get something like that to me, it is like picking on someone with a limp or something, it doesn't reflect on me. But you know what? We all say stupid things sometimes when we are mad. Low blows are endemic to us all so I can't act all holy like I never get in low blows. But being so open allows people who are close to me to know how to better interact with me. For instance if you know a friend is someone who goes to bed early, you will try to avoid calling them later at night. You adapt. There is a really frank friend I have who noted that I often mention OCD, and asked me if I were joking or not, 'cause if not, that would really help said person in responding so as not to cause unneeded stress.

I think you may have read when I wrote in my blog to people who know other people with OCD and may be getting frustrated with their actions thinking, "This is nuts! Don't these people realize how irrational this [insert whatever behaviour issue such person has] is?????" And my response is, "Please be understanding of your suffering loved one. One of the tortures of OCD is not just the repititive behaviour, it is the knowledge that the sufferer has even while they are doing it that it is irrational, but they just can't stop." A person who is truly looney, out there crazy, they don't know they are crazy at the time (they may see it later with proper treatment). But many people with the milder issues such as depression, OCD (well that has its extreme forms) etc still have the "normal" person in their head that looks at themselves and KNOWS there are issues. That is part of the trauma.

I know you know all this BHN, but I say this to promote better empathy with those who may not.

learning

January 28th 2005, 09:24 AM

Thank you for your understanding statements Dee Dee. This reminds me, the idea that people can know something is wrong, even when the wrong mental processes are happening, it is like when someone first gets alzheimer's. They realize they are forgetting things, or getting mixed up with who is who, or the date etc., and they often try to compensate, with anger or with withdrawal, etc. It is the one's who 'know' they have a mental deficit, that often are the least likely to seek help, because sometimes they think that something can't 'really be wrong' because they are still aware of what is going wrong. But it is that very awareness that could be their relief and ability to seek help.

Don't you think a lot of these things are 'pride' too? Or mistaken 'cure' ideas?
I know from some things I've read, so many men (and women too) often go off medication because they think they're 'cured' because they're feeling better (this can be anything from anti-biotics to psyche drugs) when often the drugs are dangerous to go off (if you go off anti-biotics too soon, the bugs are not fully killed off, and can and DO come back a stronger strain) or if you go off some psyche drugs too soon, the drugs are still in one's system, and the body and mind still feel good for a while, but then after it has got out of one's system, the problems come up again. Also, some psyche drugs can be dangerous to go off of too soon.

But here is a surprising thing for me. I went once to a Dr. complaining about PMS symptoms of depression, and the Dr. told me the best thing was to walk for 20 minutes a day for at least three times a week. So, here was a Dr. who could have made money giving me a prescription, and he told me that exercise was the best thing. I guess in a way, that was a 'drug' prescription, because the exercise would be producing the dopamines in my brain, wouldn't they? :)

elpese

January 28th 2005, 03:47 PM

I think that this is a very good question, and one that is asked a lot by people with depression (or mental illness in general). I have A LOT of experience with psychiatric medications, both anti-depressants and others. I worked for many years with people who have severe mental illnesses (such as schizophrenia) and have also dealt with depression personally.

In the mental health community you will find a very vocal groupl of people who are very anti-med and anti-psychiatry. One problem that they have is that the drug companies are too intimate with the medical community. This is very true, doctors/hospitals get funding, get special perks, are able to take pretty good vacations (not specifically paid for by the drug companies, but they have a heavy hand in them) all because of the pharmaceutical industry.

That said...I have seen medications to be very helpful to some people too often to say that they do not work at all, or are some sort of brainwashing or mind altering medication. However, I think that it is important for those taking the meds to look at the medications as a tool, not a solution, to the problem. I have not found medications to be particularly helpful for me, and I have tried many, many different ones.

For depression I don't think that meds should be the first line of attack. I think that some people hope that the meds will help them suddenly feel wonderful. This is impossible for any medication to accomplish. Most meds have many side effects to be concerned about too. Many people feel that the side effects are not worth it.

I do not think that the medications are something that goes against what God wants for us. I believe that we are given the tools to help ourselves. I do think that some of the depression that we experience is from the world in which we live (that could take up a whole new subject), but that there is also a biological basis for depression as well.

Okay, I better stop now beforeI bore anyone even more. I could go on forever on this topic.
Good luck!

BeHereNow

January 28th 2005, 08:21 PM

I want to thank everyone again for the sincere responses. It's more than I could've expected about this favorite topic of mine.

Anyone else wanting to share is beyond welcome.

That said...I have seen medications to be very helpful to some people too often to say that they do not work at all, or are some sort of brainwashing or mind altering medication. However, I think that it is important for those taking the meds to look at the medications as a tool, not a solution, to the problem. I have not found medications to be particularly helpful for me, and I have tried many, many different ones.

For depression I don't think that meds should be the first line of attack. I think that some people hope that the meds will help them suddenly feel wonderful. This is impossible for any medication to accomplish. Most meds have many side effects to be concerned about too. Many people feel that the side effects are not worth it.

elpese, you make several good points. My biggest problem with the closeness of the pharm. companies with doctors is that doctors will tend to push these drugs on people that may not benefit from them. I believe that different things work for different people, and there is no cure-all solution to mental illness. A lot of that is due to the fact that mental illness can be caused by both biological and environmental factors, and the mix of each differs from person to person.

I do not think that the medications are something that goes against what God wants for us. I believe that we are given the tools to help ourselves. I do think that some of the depression that we experience is from the world in which we live (that could take up a whole new subject), but that there is also a biological basis for depression as well.

Also a good point. When I suffered from bpd, I was also finishing up a sociology degree, which put me in the position of focusing more on environmental factors than biological.

Okay, I better stop now beforeI bore anyone even more. I could go on forever on this topic.
Good luck!

Me too; sharing is a wonderful way to heal.

theseed

January 29th 2005, 12:46 PM

BeHereNow

January 29th 2005, 09:00 PM

I will make a brief post.

The bible never promises us happiness, but it does promise a life of joy. The Bible also teaches us to be transformed by the renewing of our mind. According to Rational Emotive Behavioral Therapy, our thoughts determine our feelings. As Christians, if we do not meditate on God's word and his promises, then we don't experiance the joy that we should experiance. Joy like faith, is a fruit of the Holy Spirit. However, our spirit, after it is quickened the Holy Spirit, struggles against the flesh. This can include chemical imbalances in the brain. Joy is beng hopeful depsite being depressed or being in depressed circumstances.

theseed, are you saying that Joy is nothing more than Hope? I always thought Joy was a sense of elation that sustains one through the day.

Let's get a hypothetical. If you are depressed, and you're suicidal, and you are joyous (hopeful), what is it that you are still hopeful of at this point?

Long babble made short, people used meds in The Bible. Luke was a doctor. Meds are fine.

They used meds in the same sense that we use the word? That is, they took medicine for the brain?

theseed

January 30th 2005, 02:09 PM

theseed, are you saying that Joy is nothing more than Hope? I always thought Joy was a sense of elation that sustains one through the day.
Where does this "elation" come from? What makes us joyful or glad?

Let's get a hypothetical. If you are depressed, and you're suicidal, and you are joyous (hopeful), what is it that you are still hopeful of at this point?
I will concede here, and admit that I can't see a way that you can be both joyful and depressed. However, you can be hopeful that the depression will not last, that there there are things you can try besides suicide.

They used meds in the same sense that we use the word? That is, they took medicine for the brain? They probably had pain meds. They had things for the body.

Can you think of a verse that says Christians are supposed to be joyful all of the time or never depressed?

Depression is the only mental illness I know of that may not require continous treatment for the rest of the person's life.