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Jack777
January 27th 2005, 02:01 PM
Tertullian on Philosophy and Dialectics



Cosmogony Matters

I was going to post this about the Creator as it is another example of writing that supports early believers of the Ekklesia died because they would not betray the Father as Creator, nor Jesus as Creator and Redeemer.

Tertullian thought the issue of Who God Is was of utmost importance. The differing philosophies that either were from Athens or the new god of Marcion that was supposed to be superior to the Creator in the Bible were important to define and make known as either Revelation or heresy. Marcion was not a heretic only, but much more. He decided he did not like the God of the Bible so he invented one to his liking. This is one of the dangers of Theistic Evolution. I know some may not realize it, but it is true anyway. Our best thoughts about a matter can be uplifting and we understand what it is that we mean by something when we formulate ideas and we think that others will be as apt to see the upside of a proposition. This may seem obvious to many people, but the road to hell is paved with good intentions. People see a greater good to be accomplished and convince ourselves that an idea or plan is as obviously beneficial to others as it is to us. Marcion accomplished one thing that was good in that he forced a canon of Scripture to be adopted due to his ideas that were opposed to the Scriptural witness of what we call the Old Testament. He invented a god that was positive and different than the God we know as Christians because he felt God in the Bible was too harsh, too negative, and not perfect enough.



"These are 'the doctrines of men' and 'of demons' produced for itching ears of the spirit of this world’s wisdom: this the Lord called 'foolishness,' and 'chose the foolish things of the world' to confound even philosophy itself. For (philosophy) it is which is the material of the world’s wisdom, the rash interpreter of the nature and the dispensation of God. Indeed heresies are themselves instigated by philosophy. From this source came the Aeons, and I know not what infinite forms, and the trinity of man in the system of Valentinus, who was of Plato’s school. From the same source came Marcion’s better God, with all his tranquillity; he came of the Stoics. Then, again, the opinion that the soul dies is held by the Epicureans; while the denial of the restoration of the body is taken from the aggregate school of all the philosophers; also, when matter is made equal to God, then you have the teaching of Zeno; and when any doctrine is alleged touching a god of fire, then Heraclitus comes in. The same subject-matter is discussed over and over again by the heretics and the philosophers; the same arguments are involved. Whence comes evil? Why is it permitted? What is the origin of man? and in what way does he come? Besides the question which Valentinus has very lately proposed - Whence comes God? Which he settles with the answer: From enthymesis and ectroma. Unhappy Aristotle! who invented for these men dialectics, the art of building up and pulling down; an art so evasive in its propositions, so far-fetched in its conjectures, so harsh, in its arguments, so productive of contentions - embarrassing even to itself, retracting everything, and really treating of nothing! Whence spring those 'fables and endless genealogies,' and 'unprofitable questions, and 'words which spread like a cancer?' From all these, when the apostle would restrain us, he expressly names philosophy as that which he would have us be on our guard against. Writing to the Colossians, he says, 'See that no one beguile you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, and contrary to the wisdom of the Holy Ghost.' He had been at Athens, and had in his interviews (with its philosophers) become acquainted with that human wisdom which pretends to know the truth, whilst it only corrupts it, and is itself divided into its own manifold heresies, by the variety of its mutually repugnant sects. What indeed has Athens to do with Jerusalem? What concord is there between the Academy and the Church? what between heretics and Christians? Our instruction comes from 'the porch of Solomon,' who had himself taught that 'the Lord should be sought in simplicity of heart.' Away with all attempts to produce a mottled Christianity of Stoic, Platonic, and dialectic composition! We want no curious disputation after possessing Christ Jesus, no inquisition after enjoying the gospel! With our faith, we desire no further belief. For this is our palmary faith, that there is nothing which we ought to believe besides.



Tertullian, The Prescription Against Heretics, Translator, Rev. Peter Holmes, in The Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 3, Master Christian Library Edition, Albany, OR: AGES Software Version 1.0, Copyright 1997 Ages Software, 1997.

rogero
January 28th 2005, 09:54 PM
Tertullian on Philosophy and Dialectics



Cosmogony Matters

I was going to post this about the Creator as it is another example of writing that supports early believers of the Ekklesia died because they would not betray the Father as Creator, nor Jesus as Creator and Redeemer.

Tertullian thought the issue of Who God Is was of utmost importance. The differing philosophies that either were from Athens or the new god of Marcion that was supposed to be superior to the Creator in the Bible were important to define and make known as either Revelation or heresy. Marcion was not a heretic only, but much more. He decided he did not like the God of the Bible so he invented one to his liking. This is one of the dangers of Theistic Evolution. I know some may not realize it, but it is true anyway. Our best thoughts about a matter can be uplifting and we understand what it is that we mean by something when we formulate ideas and we think that others will be as apt to see the upside of a proposition. This may seem obvious to many people, but the road to hell is paved with good intentions. People see a greater good to be accomplished and convince ourselves that an idea or plan is as obviously beneficial to others as it is to us. Marcion accomplished one thing that was good in that he forced a canon of Scripture to be adopted due to his ideas that were opposed to the Scriptural witness of what we call the Old Testament. He invented a god that was positive and different than the God we know as Christians because he felt God in the Bible was too harsh, too negative, and not perfect enough.



"These are 'the doctrines of men' and 'of demons' produced for itching ears of the spirit of this world’s wisdom: this the Lord called 'foolishness,' and 'chose the foolish things of the world' to confound even philosophy itself. For (philosophy) it is which is the material of the world’s wisdom, the rash interpreter of the nature and the dispensation of God. Indeed heresies are themselves instigated by philosophy. From this source came the Aeons, and I know not what infinite forms, and the trinity of man in the system of Valentinus, who was of Plato’s school. From the same source came Marcion’s better God, with all his tranquillity; he came of the Stoics. Then, again, the opinion that the soul dies is held by the Epicureans; while the denial of the restoration of the body is taken from the aggregate school of all the philosophers; also, when matter is made equal to God, then you have the teaching of Zeno; and when any doctrine is alleged touching a god of fire, then Heraclitus comes in. The same subject-matter is discussed over and over again by the heretics and the philosophers; the same arguments are involved. Whence comes evil? Why is it permitted? What is the origin of man? and in what way does he come? Besides the question which Valentinus has very lately proposed - Whence comes God? Which he settles with the answer: From enthymesis and ectroma. Unhappy Aristotle! who invented for these men dialectics, the art of building up and pulling down; an art so evasive in its propositions, so far-fetched in its conjectures, so harsh, in its arguments, so productive of contentions - embarrassing even to itself, retracting everything, and really treating of nothing! Whence spring those 'fables and endless genealogies,' and 'unprofitable questions, and 'words which spread like a cancer?' From all these, when the apostle would restrain us, he expressly names philosophy as that which he would have us be on our guard against. Writing to the Colossians, he says, 'See that no one beguile you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, and contrary to the wisdom of the Holy Ghost.' He had been at Athens, and had in his interviews (with its philosophers) become acquainted with that human wisdom which pretends to know the truth, whilst it only corrupts it, and is itself divided into its own manifold heresies, by the variety of its mutually repugnant sects. What indeed has Athens to do with Jerusalem? What concord is there between the Academy and the Church? what between heretics and Christians? Our instruction comes from 'the porch of Solomon,' who had himself taught that 'the Lord should be sought in simplicity of heart.' Away with all attempts to produce a mottled Christianity of Stoic, Platonic, and dialectic composition! We want no curious disputation after possessing Christ Jesus, no inquisition after enjoying the gospel! With our faith, we desire no further belief. For this is our palmary faith, that there is nothing which we ought to believe besides.



Tertullian, The Prescription Against Heretics, Translator, Rev. Peter Holmes, in The Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 3, Master Christian Library Edition, Albany, OR: AGES Software Version 1.0, Copyright 1997 Ages Software, 1997.
Who is your hero -- Tertullian of Carthage or Jesus of Nazareth?

The reply and upshot to all readers is that Jack's post speaks in favor of a Creator. TEs also believe in a creator, in fact Christian TEs believe in the Logos of John 1 as Creator. So, what's Jack's point?

R

Jack777
January 29th 2005, 01:41 PM
I figured you birds would get around to questioning my Faith if my proving you wrong became too apparent. I had hoped to spark people in the direction of God instead of molecules as regards Faith, that is all. You don't think the Creator is great shakes, I am sorry for you. Jesus is my Lord, my Savior, my Creator. he is the reason I live now. He is my hero. Anytime you want me to testify to my Lord, just ask, thank you.

I am posting this because this supports my opinion.

How important is the Creator now and how important to the early Ekklesia? It is of the utmost importance.



This was important to Jews who lived before the time of the First Advent. I thought I had posted this, but maybe not.



INTERPRETATION CONCERNING THE AGES WHICH GOD HAS MADE: AN AGE TO ACHIEVE ALL THAT THERE IS AND ALL THAT WILL BE.



BEFORE CREATING THEM HE DETERMINED THEIR OPERATIONS ACCORDING TO THE PRECISE SEQUENCE OF THE AGES ONE AGE AFTER ANOTHER. AND THIS IS ENGRAVED ON THE HEAVENLY TABLETS FOR THE SONS OF MEN



QUMRAN SCROLL 4Q180



Florentino Garcia Martinez, The Dead Sea Scrolls Translated: The Qumran Texts in English, Translator, Wilfred G. E. Watson, Grand Rapids, MI: William B. Eerdmans, Copyright 1992 Editorial Trotta sa, Madrid, Spain; Copyright 1994, 1996; E. J. Brill, Leiden, the Netherlands, 1996.





These people evidently believed that it is important as to the acts of the Creator. This should have dispelled any doubt that God the Father was important to the people who lived before Jesus. Jesus was a Jew by the way.



grmorton is confused and thinks I said early Christians were martyred for creation. I am not exactly sure what that means, but that is not what I said or am saying. Christians were martyred rather than deny the Creator. The Caesars were considered gods and Christians would not deny the Father or the Son. The writings of the early Christians such as Tertullian prove my point. The quote directly below proves my point and I think I posted it before, but maybe not. I have been juggling between three computers and am usually not able to take my time when I post. So, if there is any doubt, speak up. I will be glad to discuss this. Saying I am ignorant is cute, but not substantive. Telling me what I am ignorant of could lead to substantive discussion, but you never know. I think the issue of Who the Creator is because the Bible does, God the Creator does, His Son Jesus Christ does, and the Holy Spirit does.



You will, however, find no church of apostolic origin but such as reposes its Christian Faith in the Creator



Tertullian



Apology



Tertullian, “Apology”, Translator, Rev. Peter Holmes, in The Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 3, Master Christian Library Edition, Albany, OR: AGES Software Version 1.0, Copyright 1997 Ages Software, 1997.