I need a name for my end-times view.

[Ted]

I’m searching for a name for my view of end-times. This post is not presented for argument for or against its position. Rather, I seek help in naming it. I have tried some names:

Covenant Eschatology: Unfortunately, this name seems generally to be applied to some forms of Preterism.

Biblical Covenant Eschatology: Again unsatisfactory, because it sounds arrogant. After all, who am I to declare what is biblical, against the views of so many others?

So I do not have a satisfactory name. Perhaps one of you will have an inspired idea to lift me from this dilemma. In order to give you the tools, let me present the outline of my views.

First, like Historicism, I see prophecy unfolding throughout history, with some even being fulfilled as I we consider this. And like Preterism, I see Daniel 9 as completely fulfilled in AD34/70. Like Dispensationalism, I see a great number of prophetic events yet future. Now for the outline.

1. God has to permanently deal with sin. It arose in a perfect universe, and measures must be taken to eliminate it and prevent its resurgence. At the same time, God wishes all beings to love Him. Thus, He allows Satan a quarantined world in which to try to prove his slanders against God. At the end of this demonstration, the entire universe will witness God’s slander suit against Satan. Upon Satan’s conviction, the entire universe will be so convicted of God’s righteousness that sin, while theoretically possible, will become a “dead option.” At this point, Satan and the wicked can be destroyed.

2. God deals with mankind in a uniform, orderly way called the covenant. There is a single over-arching covenant declared in Gen 3:15. All successive covenants are additions and declarations within that primary covenant. Each additional covenant provides additional information about God and man’s relationship to Him. But, contra Dispensationalism, there has been only one way of salvation at any time, and that is faith in God.

3. God called Israel to be His missionaries. He gave them the birthright blessing of land “in the midst of the earth,” guidance by prophets, and miracles for protection. This is the meaning of being chosen. Failure to carry out that task eventually led to the removal of both the task and the blessings that allowed them to carry it out from the unfaithful Jews. Both were retained by the faithful remnant that became called the church.

4. God defined in Daniel 2 a series of five geopolitical stages for the duration of the age of sin. Those are Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, Rome, and political fragmentation. This fifth stage is our present state and will continue until the parousia.

5. At the parousia, God will destroy all wicked people, and remove His saints from the earth. They will be taken to heaven, where they sit as the court hearing God’s slander suit against Satan. This period is defined as a thousand years, and is commonly called the millennium. During this time, Satan remains quarantined on earth, but has no one alive to tempt.

6. At the end of the millennium, God will return with the saints to earth. The wicked will be resurrected, and Satan will make one last desperate attempt to destroy them and God. God will turn this attack away. At the same time, God will bring a covenant lawsuit against them. Every wicked person will see his own guilt. Then they will all be destroyed in the lake of fire.

7. The earth will be re-made into a new Eden. This will be our home for eternity.

It should be noted that the calendar of end-times is the festival calendar. The spring festivals were fulfilled in order in Jesus’ first Advent, and the fall festivals will be fulfilled in order in His second Advent. This means that the Mosaic covenant is the framework of end times. And the sanctuary, the center of that covenant, is the key to understanding prophecy, in particular Daniel and Revelation.

A couple of specific points may be added. There will not be any “7-Year Great Tribulation.” The parousia will be universally visible. That means that the Secret Rapture is not true. There will not be any reconstituted Roman Empire, and there will not be a single “Antichrist” character. For the Preterists, Matthew 24 was not all fulfilled in AD70. The Day of the Lord language remains to be fulfilled at the parousia.

I think that’s enough to give you enough to come up with a good name. Any takers?

Ted

[Hitch]

'Confused Conglomorate'... might catch on

[John Reece]

Noelism.

Truly unique.

No one else would ever come up with the same idiosyncratic interpretation.

[Anoetos]

Looks like a modified Premillennialism to me. You don't need some funky-fresh new name for it. It's just Premillennialism. And futurism isn't just Dispensational, btw.

Your incorporation of some preterist functions is, um, interesting.
So I guess it makes you that rarest of all Christians, a Partial Preterist Premillennialist.

And I am glad to have met you. You appear to be the last of your species.

[Hitch]

"Its dead Jim"...

[Ted]

:lol:

Now to a more serious note - those of you who have read my posts recognize that I support them from scripture in a careful way. And those of you who are aware of the history of interpretation may recognize that a significant part of my view is the same as the Seventh-day Adventist position. But there I must caution you. I am NOT SDA. I left that body over a number of problems, not the least of which involves prophetic interpretation.

Another note on SDA's. I am a member of the Adventist Theological Society. But I will be kicked out shortly because I will not subscribe to their view on Daniel 8:14. In fact, at the ETS meeting in 2003, they refused to let me share their booth (and I would have paid $$ for it) because I Want to be Left Behind identifies the last chance for man to repent as the beginning of the heavenly Day of Atonement. That contradicts their Investigative Judgment doctrine. :sigh:

John, is everything I do "idiosyncratic?"


Looks like a modified Premillennialism to me. You don't need some funky-fresh new name for it. It's just Premillennialism. And futurism isn't just Dispensational, btw.
Quite true about Premillenialism. Historical Premillenialism is quite well known. But the historical form posits a millennium on earth. I read John 14:1-3 to place it in heaven. Because premillennialism today is almost universally taken to be Dispensational, it seems that some distinction would be appropriate.

Your incorporation of some preterist functions is, um, interesting.
So I guess it makes you that rarest of all Christians, a Partial Preterist Premillennialist.
That's essentially what Ed Stevens called me. It may end up as the best term, but I'n not particularly happy being known as Preterist at all. Historicism in general is a better fit, since it describes a progressive unfolding of prophecy through history, but classic Historicism has a bunch of problems on its own.

OK guys, keep those cards and letters coming...

:eek:

Ted

[dizzle]

That's essentially what Ed Stevens called me. It may end up as the best term, but I'n not particularly happy being known as Preterist at all. Historicism in general is a better fit, since it describes a progressive unfolding of prophecy through history, but classic Historicism has a bunch of problems on its own.


You are not a preterist at all IMHO. Historicist is much better fit all around.

[eschaton]

:lol:


OK guys, keep those cards and letters coming...

:eek:

Ted

Hi Ted,

We are both futurists and we both see the covenant form, or something similar to it, in prophecy and in much of the rest of scripture I believe. Other than that I don't think we have a lot in common.

Are you speaking of The Investigative Judgement when you speak of Dan 8:14 and the SDA?

When I think of premillennialism I think of a literal 1000 years of Jesus on the earth with the saints. You believe there won't be anybody on the earth and the saints will be in heaven reigning with Christ. I don't know who they are supposed to be reigning over.

Both of our views are somewhat unique I guess, but I think mine is very near that of the early church. So I guess that makes you more unique than me. I consider myself amillennial since I don't believe in a literal thousand year reign on the earth. For that matter, I don't believe in a rapture either. I believe in a resurrection. But enough about me. This is about you.

You don't believe in an Antichrist or a tribulation. That sounds like preterism. You don't believe in a 1000 year reign on the earth. This rules out premillennialism for me. For you, either Christ returns to earth and then goes back to heaven in chapter 19, or he never quite makes it to earth. Yes, that is very unique.

I think since you don't believe the millennium is anything except a time of the saints in heaven judging a trial, maybe we could call it a modified amillennialism. The millennium isn't anything but a trial. I don't think I've seen that anywhere else. Could we call it tribunal millennialism?

Alan

[Ted]

Are you speaking of The Investigative Judgement when you speak of Dan 8:14 and the SDA?
First, I got your name right this time! Second, you are right on. The SDA doctrine of the Investigative Judgment is a false doctrine. There is a grain of truth in it, but the SDA church, following the lead of Ellen White, places the review of history in the Day of Atonement, starting in 1844. It supposedly reveals to the angels who is to be saved. That’s complete nonsense. The review of history takes place in the millennium, and is God’s slander suit against Satan.

Sorry, I got started and was barely able to stop. I could have written three posts on the errors in the IJ.

When I think of premillennialism I think of a literal 1000 years of Jesus on the earth with the saints. You believe there won't be anybody on the earth and the saints will be in heaven reigning with Christ. I don't know who they are supposed to be reigning over.
You must not have been following the discussion I have been having with Etcetera about whether the thousand years is literal or not. Look at that. I won’t repeat myself on that.

For that matter, I don't believe in a rapture either. I believe in a resurrection. But enough about me.
That’s curious. Perhaps sometime we will have to deal with 1 Thes 4.

You don't believe in an Antichrist or a tribulation.
That’s not quite true. I do believe that Christians will endure tribulation. Over 100,000 are killed annually for their faith now. That’s tribulation in my book. I just don’t believe in a “7-year great tribulation” like the Dispensationalist view. Neither do I believe in a single “Antichrist” (note capital “A”) character, since that requires a one-world government, something expressly denied by Daniel 2.

I think since you don't believe the millennium is anything except a time of the saints in heaven judging a trial, maybe we could call it a modified amillennialism. The millennium isn't anything but a trial. I don't think I've seen that anywhere else. Could we call it tribunal millennialism?
Since the time is real, I don’t think any “amillennial” label is good. “Tribunal Millennialism?” Interesting...

Ted

[Sheepdog]

how about Tedology? :hehe:

[Ted]

The problem with "Tedology" is that "Ted" is neither a biblical term nor descriptive of the contents of the system. Something that satisfies those two needs is what I am looking for.

FWIW, "Tedology" would also make me the subject of the study, not eschatology. While I hope to be alive at the Parousia, that's not certain. The Parousia is certain.

And it's too short for Leno.

Ted

[Solly]

Hitch is back???

[Tim C.]

First, like Historicism, I see prophecy unfolding throughout history, with some even being fulfilled as I we consider this. And like Preterism, I see Daniel 9 as completely fulfilled in AD34/70. Like Dispensationalism, I see a great number of prophetic events yet future. Now for the outline.This would mean "Historicist" should be specified in your new name.

1. God has to permanently deal with sin. It arose in a perfect universe, and measures must be taken to eliminate it and prevent its resurgence. At the same time, God wishes all beings to love Him. Thus, He allows Satan a quarantined world in which to try to prove his slanders against God. At the end of this demonstration, the entire universe will witness God’s slander suit against Satan. Upon Satan’s conviction, the entire universe will be so convicted of God’s righteousness that sin, while theoretically possible, will become a "dead option." At this point, Satan and the wicked can be destroyed.I suppose this would add "Non-Calvinist" to your new name?

2. God deals with mankind in a uniform, orderly way called the covenant. There is a single over-arching covenant declared in Gen 3:15. All successive covenants are additions and declarations within that primary covenant. Each additional covenant provides additional information about God and man’s relationship to Him. But, contra Dispensationalism, there has been only one way of salvation at any time, and that is faith in God.

3. God called Israel to be His missionaries. He gave them the birthright blessing of land "in the midst of the earth," guidance by prophets, and miracles for protection. This is the meaning of being chosen. Failure to carry out that task eventually led to the removal of both the task and the blessings that allowed them to carry it out from the unfaithful Jews. Both were retained by the faithful remnant that became called the church.These two points would add "Covenantalist" to your new name.

4. God defined in Daniel 2 a series of five geopolitical stages for the duration of the age of sin. Those are Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, Rome, and political fragmentation. This fifth stage is our present state and will continue until the parousia.This is already covered under the "Historicism" label.

5. At the parousia, God will destroy all wicked people, and remove His saints from the earth. They will be taken to heaven, where they sit as the court hearing God’s slander suit against Satan. This period is defined as a thousand years, and is commonly called the millennium. During this time, Satan remains quarantined on earth, but has no one alive to tempt.

6. At the end of the millennium, God will return with the saints to earth. The wicked will be resurrected, and Satan will make one last desperate attempt to destroy them and God. God will turn this attack away. At the same time, God will bring a covenant lawsuit against them. Every wicked person will see his own guilt. Then they will all be destroyed in the lake of fire.These two points are premillennial in nature, yet do not accept a literal fulfillment of the Abrahamic and Davidic Covenants on earth during the kingdom age. I suppose this would add "Partial-Premillennialist" to your new name.

7. The earth will be re-made into a new Eden. This will be our home for eternity.Ah, the restoration of the creation to its paradisical glory. This is common in most all walks of eschatology, so no need to reference it in your new name.

It should be noted that the calendar of end-times is the festival calendar. The spring festivals were fulfilled in order in Jesus’ first Advent, and the fall festivals will be fulfilled in order in His second Advent. This means that the Mosaic covenant is the framework of end times. And the sanctuary, the center of that covenant, is the key to understanding prophecy, in particular Daniel and Revelation.Interesting, but probably not significant enough a point to be referenced in your new name.

A couple of specific points may be added. There will not be any "7-Year Great Tribulation." The parousia will be universally visible. That means that the Secret Rapture is not true. There will not be any reconstituted Roman Empire, and there will not be a single "Antichrist" character. For the Preterists, Matthew 24 was not all fulfilled in AD70. The Day of the Lord language remains to be fulfilled at the parousia.So you are not futurist, and not a full blown preterist. This is already covered under the "Historicism" label.

I think that’s enough to give you enough to come up with a good name. Any takers?Well, lets see. We have:

1.) "Historicist"

2.) "Non-Calvinist"

3.) "Covenantalist"

4.) "Partial-Premillennialist"

I guess I would call it "Non-Calvinistic Covenant Historicist Partial-Premillennialism."

-Tim

[Ted]

Tim,

I wasn't aware that Calvinism was a major factor in eschatology. I've seen both Calvinists and Arminians in virtually every camp. Yes, I'm Arminian.

Second, I am ardently pre-millennial, not partially so. But I am neither historical nor Dispensational premillennial.

Striking those two from the list leaves Covenantal Historicism or Historicist Covenantalism. The first is easier to say.

This is getting closer. But it's not quite there. It's missing that je ne se quois. There seem to be two elements missing yet. And I'm not sure that they are necessary, but maybe...

The first is the overarching war between Christ and Satan. Everything else fits into that frame. The second is that there is much yet future. Thus, in a way, my view remains futurist. It's just not Dispensational futurist.

Thanks for the help. Maybe there are more ideas percolating out there.

Ted

[TasManOfGod]

Maybe there are more ideas percolating out there.

TedWell Ted I have read your posts with interest. Like you I believe that covenants are the key to end time events. I stopped short over agreeing completely with you because all that I believe is futurist and covenants remain separate. Nevertheless we could continue to run things by each other :highfive:

Tas

[Tim C.]

Tim,

I wasn't aware that Calvinism was a major factor in eschatology. I've seen both Calvinists and Arminians in virtually every camp. Yes, I'm Arminian.I thought that perhaps you were attempting to emphasize "non-Calvinism" in your new name, but wasn't sure. Thats why my answer under your point #1 had a "?" after it.

What is it from point #1 you want included in your new name?

Second, I am ardently pre-millennial, not partially so. But I am neither historical nor Dispensational premillennial.Your belief that the millennium will take place up in heaven is certainly not the "norm" in premillennial doctrine. Your view does not believe in a literal fulfillment of the Abrahamic and Davidic Covenants on earth during the kingdom age. It is not consistent with Judaism. And it is not the premillennialism of the ancient church.

You believe the kingdom is not a present reality, and will not come until the return of the Lord. Well this is certainly "premillennial" in nature, but I'm not sure it is enough to label your view "premillennialism." Perhaps your millennial view should be called "Second-Advent Amillennialism"?

Striking those two from the list leaves Covenantal Historicism or Historicist Covenantalism. The first is easier to say.I think you would need to mention your millennial view in your new name. You know... "Covenant Amillennialism"... "Partial-Preterist Postmillennialism"... "Dispensational Premillennialism"...

Really, it seems to me that you are just a "Covenant Premillennialist," but with a special kind of premillennialism which needs explained. Not the common "Covenant Premillennialist," thats for sure. But alot of Covenant Premillennialists hold to a Historicist interpretation of prophecy yet don't bother specifying that detail in their names. Perhaps Historicism need not be mentioned in your name.

-Tim

[Ted]

So far it seems to be:
Covenantal Historicism
or
Covenant Premillennialism.

I can't quite decide. Both have elements that seem to be core in the description, but combining them seem awkward. If I called it Historicist Covenant Premillennialism that would almost work, but seems to say that I believe in the Historical Premillenial idea of the millennium on earth.

??????

Ted

[Chief of Staff Lizard]

So far it seems to be:
Covenantal Historicism
or
Covenant Premillennialism.

I can't quite decide. Both have elements that seem to be core in the description, but combining them seem awkward. If I called it Historicist Covenant Premillennialism that would almost work, but seems to say that I believe in the Historical Premillenial idea of the millennium on earth.

??????

Ted
Just my opinion, but of the two, I would go with Covenental Historicism. Covenant Premillennialism just makes me think of some one (and there are more than you might think) who is not dispensational, but still hold to a LaHaye type eschatology.

But maybe that is just me. :shrug:

[Ted]

The problem with "LaHaye type eschatology" is that is is so closely associated with the Secret Rapture.

Ted

[Tim C.]

Just my opinion, but of the two, I would go with Covenental Historicism. Covenant Premillennialism just makes me think of some one (and there are more than you might think) who is not dispensational, but still hold to a LaHaye type eschatology.Most "Covenant Premillennialists" are Historicists.

-Tim