Psychology and Theology websites

[keith]

Since there is already a thread with excellent contacts for psychology perhaps it is time to have one that looks at sites where psychology and theology interact.

www.caps.net (http://www.caps.net) is a site for psychologists/therapists who are also Christians
www.aacc.net (http://www.aacc.net) the American Association of Christian Counselors site
www.necip.org.uk (http://www.necip.org.uk) UK based site, not dissimilar to the CAPS site
www.davidmyers.org (http://www.davidmyers.org) Myers is widely known as a speaker/teacher/writer on integration of psychology/theology.
www.biola.edu/jpt (http://www.biola.edu/jpt) home of Journal of Psychology and Theology. some free articles available online
www.divinity.cam.ac.uk/pcp (http://www.divinity.cam.ac.uk/pcp) Home of Psychology and Christianity Project. Headed up by Fraser Watts - both Cambridge professor in Natural Theology, psychologist and Anglican priest.

Happy surfing all :smile:

[Spiritus Naturae]

Thanks Keith. :thumb: Some informative stuff here. :yes:

[Pretty Pink VICTORY]

Let me just say that "Christian Psychology" is a farce and is leading many many many Christians astray! Since the birthplace of psychology and it's methods is in Eastern mysticism, you cannot, as a true Christian, merge the two.

If someone wants to explore this further........... we can go to the locker room.

:baby:C

[Pretty Pink VICTORY]

to expound a little more:

Psychology is the exploration, glorification and ultimate deification of the self which is in direct opposition to Chrisitianity and following Christ.

[learning]

I thought it was the study of the 'soul' or 'mind'. This 'self' thing, I think is a new thing, with this 'self-esteem' thing. But that isn't against the Bible. We are told to 'build each other up.' Barnabus was known as an encourager. I think that some of these things are related to the Bible and simple love, etc.

I had a Christian Psychiatrist help me once, through a few months of depression, and we talked mostly about pride and he prayed for me, and I found that his ministry was just what I needed. Christian Psychiatrists can point a person to Christ.

(when one realizes that one gets 'down' because of pride and/or false guilt (sometimes we put ourselves down more than anyone could or can), one can work through that, see it for the truth, move on and we can grow up in Christ)

[Pretty Pink VICTORY]

Quote:

I thought it was the study of the 'soul' or 'mind'. This 'self' thing, I think is a new thing, with this 'self-esteem' thing. But that isn't against the Bible. We are told to 'build each other up.' Barnabus was known as an encourager. I think that some of these things are related to the Bible and simple love, etc.

I had a Christian Psychiatrist help me once, through a few months of depression, and we talked mostly about pride and he prayed for me, and I found that his ministry was just what I needed. Christian Psychiatrists can point a person to Christ.

(when one realizes that one gets 'down' because of pride and/or false guilt (sometimes we put ourselves down more than anyone could or can), one can work through that, see it for the truth, move on and we can grow up in Christ)

I'm saddened by the fact that many Christians today, find that Christ is not enough to help them, heal them; that they NEED to consult "psychology" to be helped or cured. One does not need a Psychiatrist to point him or her to Christ. Any believing, loving follower of Christ can encourage, and lift up another believer, through God's word and prayer. We are, in fact, instructed in scripture to do so. We are not instructed by scripture that first, me must obtain a fancy degree, and then charge a fee, to dispense this good news. To obtain a degree in a field of study founded on prinicles that are in stark contradiction to the Word of God, infuse it with a few words from scripture, package it, in a deceiving way to be appealing to Christians, present yourself as more knowledgeable about such issues than the word of God, and then charge someone to dispense such advice, is irreprehensible.

I am not in any way discounting the fact that there may be chemical changes in the brain, that require a medical Dr's help to fix, but that's a far cry different from consulting a "psychologist" who's main focus is to help you examine/heal your "psyche". A psychologist is not who we, as Christians, consult to "heal" our feelings or ourself. And I would go as far as to say that depression (and I'm not refering to chemical changes in the brain) is an imbalanced focus on the self, self pity, that can only be combated with the Word of God, believing through faith. That kind of intense self focus completely eliminates God, and his ability and desire to heal us, from the equation of our life and demands that we somehow heal ourselves, in our own power, by thinking "happy thoughts" or building our "self-esteem" instead of focusing on our "self-worth" which God gives us, His truth, and not ourselves. We are instructed by scripture not to esteem ourselves. Self-esteem, in it's current meaning, is completely different that self-worth. We are told, that as Christians, we will be rejected, dispised, persecuted, etc. I don't recall in scripture, reading where God has told me that once I choose to follow him, that my life is going to be a cake walk. Quite the contrary. What He does tell us, is that we are more than conquerers THROUGH Christ. That He will never leave us nor forsake us. We must however, be willing to submit to Him, His Lordship, and His truth.

[learning]

I agree we are to look to Christ, but for me, in Canada, it doesn't cost anything, we're covered under our Medical program. A psychiatrist is considered as a Dr. here. I am thankful I was led to a Christian psychiatrist, as a secular one could have just doped me up. He realized I was under spiritual attack. Some minister's do not feel qualified to handle things when people are under mental stress, and some people do not realize that some mental problems are spiritual problems. This psychiatrist was also able to give me my allergy needles, as he was a medical Dr.

I agree there have been some very wrong things done through psychiatry, and sometimes, like in the case of Marilyn Monroe, they bring up the past so much, that they bring more harm then good. Dwelling on problems of the past is not good, but most psychiatrists realize that now. I think that a Psychiatrist is much more like a Dr. today because of the brain images they can use to see what's happening in the brain, they can recommend drugs or surgery, they can not just 'talk'. 'Talk' does affect the brain and synapses and how one learns to 'think correctly' is a thing that has to be learned, whether one is a Christian or not.

[Pretty Pink VICTORY]

I agree we are to look to Christ, but for me, in Canada, it doesn't cost anything, we're covered under our Medical program.
Just because my neighbor is a soothsayer and wouldn't charge me to tell me my fortune, does not mean I should go.

A psychiatrist is considered as a Dr. here.
My understanding is that is also the way her in America.

I am thankful I was led to a Christian psychiatrist, as a secular one could have just doped me up. He realized I was under spiritual attack. Some minister's do not feel qualified to handle things when people are under mental stress, and some people do not realize that some mental problems are spiritual problems. This psychiatrist was also able to give me my allergy needles, as he was a medical Dr.
I'm not saying that there aren't valid medical reasons for enlisting the help of a Psychiatrist when medical reasons require it. And there is a distinction between Psychiatrists and Psychologists. I would be very wary of the Minister who doesn't feel qualified to shepherd the sheep. Good grief, if God calls you to be a Minister/Pastor, He certainly equips you to shepherd His sheep. That minister who feels unqualified, is relying on something entirely separate from God to do his job...... BEWARE. I am glad that your psychiatrist was a Christian, able to speak truth into your life. But, Christians encouraging/praying for one another isn't something that requires payment and though you didn't write him a check, someone did for his services. My point is that psychiatry is a profession, just like being a secretary is a profession. You can have two secretaries, one Christian and one not, and as far as performing on the job in their profession, they can be equally good. Whether or not their a Christian doesn't play into their abilities to type fast or file correctly. Do we as people in non-medical fields identify ourselves as Christians? Hi, my name is Beth, I'm a better secretary because I'm a Christian secretary. No. I would contend that Psychiatrists and Psychologists identify themselves that way as a marketing tool to get more business. People in the Western world are so weak in their Faith, and unwilling to accept that they are sinners and admit their sin, and want desperately to blame their problems/sin on someone else, that they have chosen to seek guidance from those who will tell them what they want to hear. They still want to identify themselves as Christians, and hey, if the guy says he's a Christian, he must be good, and end up blindly believing everything their told. Not bothering to weigh it against the truth of the scriptures.

I think that a Psychiatrist is much more like a Dr. today because of the brain images they can use to see what's happening in the brain, they can recommend drugs or surgery, they can not just 'talk'. 'Talk' does affect the brain and synapses and how one learns to 'think correctly' is a thing that has to be learned, whether one is a Christian or not.
What do you mean "think correctly"? I would say that learning to think correctly is a direct result of studying scripture. Renewing your mind with the word of God.

[learning]

I agree, a psychiatrist is different from a psychologist. And just because we go to one, doesn't mean we don't still look into all aspects of our life, and judge their advice. Some advice I could believe, some, not.

To me, your arguing against this is similar to arguing against going to a Dr. Shouldn't we just trust God to heal us? There are some religious groups that would say it is a sin to go to a Dr., or have blood transfusions, etc.
Well, we know from the Bible that Luke was a Dr., so we can sort of say that's OK.

What I mean by 'think correctly', there comes a point in some people's depression that they have lost the ability to look at the world with clear, unbiased eyes. I'm not talking about the normal blues and feeling sorry for yourself type of thinking. I'm talking about thinking so negatively, all the time, about anything you do, especially in spiritual things, that some people put down all that they do that may be good. If someone praises them for a good dinner, they'ld say in their mind (and sometimes out loud 'Anybody could do that.' If someone critiques something they've done, they say in their mind (and sometimes out loud) that they 'will never get over that sin or fault or short coming'. It is a terrible, negative cognitive way of thinking that some of us have. I have read a book about this, (by a Psychologist or Psychiatrist) and it has helped me realise that I am too hard or too negative about myself or others even. (Sometimes this is directed to others, like in relationships with spouses or children, one can think and speak too negatively)

The Biblical principle of 'thinking on good things' IS in scripture, but often we have thought it was about some vague thing out there, like thinking about virtues, and not practically about ourselves and others. If we realize that THROUGH Christ, we CAN do all things, then we would stop this negative thinking (like why did I do that, I'm so stupid.... sort of self thinking we often do)Sometimes, one needs a kick start to get into the proper way of thinking.

Depression can get debilitating, in that the person feels so low about themselves, they can hardly function. It IS NOT self pity, it is more than that. They can't even get out of bed, or make decisions concerning life that normally they could. I could get out of bed, but work was a problem, school, what to do with my life, and other things.
It is sometimes chemical, sometimes wrong thinking. That is what the psychiatrist is there to help them figure out.

[Pretty Pink VICTORY]

To me, your arguing against this is similar to arguing against going to a Dr. Shouldn't we just trust God to heal us? There are some religious groups that would say it is a sin to go to a Dr., or have blood transfusions, etc.
Well, we know from the Bible that Luke was a Dr., so we can sort of say that's OK. For some reason, someone else has also misread this same assumption into what I've written on this subject. I am realizing now that a discussion on this issue cannot begin unless there are "ground rule definitions" set up first. There is nothing wrong with seeing a medical doctor for medical problems. And nowhere have I implied that you shouldn't and even acknowledged that if needed, we should see a MD.

Psychology/Psychiatry are NOT biological/chemical/medical science, like say a general practitioner, or heart specialist, or pediatrician, or internist, or neurologist, and therein lies the problem. Too many people, without researching the facts, believe that they are because someone told them so.


that's my point.

[learning]

I am not misunderstanding what you are saying. I am saying that one could say the same thing, and it seems similar, the same arguments. A psychiatrist IS a Dr. concerning the mind, which can be a whole lot of things, medical, physical, spiritual, social and we have to take them all into the equation when dealing with the mind. I work in a bit of the medical field, and although we deal with the physical aspect, if you think that we also do not consider the social, spiritual and mental aspect as well, you do not realize what medical science is dealing with today. We are all, as a human person, related, our body, minds, social and spirit. It all has to be dwelt with. I have a link somewhere else here on Tweb where someone is talking about evil and psychiatrists, philosophers and theologians are getting together to discuss this idea and how it relates to mankind today, what we think about it and the reality of it.

[Pretty Pink VICTORY]

A psychiatrist IS a Dr. concerning the mind, which can be a whole lot of things, medical, physical, spiritual, social and we have to take them all into the equation when dealing with the mind. I work in a bit of the medical field, and although we deal with the physical aspect, if you think that we also do not consider the social, spiritual and mental aspect as well, you do not realize what medical science is dealing with today. We are all, as a human person, related, our body, minds, social and spirit. It all has to be dwelt with.
And there in lies the problem. It is NOT all the same and when a Christian starts seeking spiritual and "psyche" help from anyone besides God, especially given the fact that if they are seeking that help in the first place, they are very defenseless, then they are "seeking" in the wrong place. The Bible clearly states that God is the answer concerning spiritual things, not the "Dr" who's ideas for "healing" the mind/spirit come from theories that are contrary to God and his teaching. Spirital and social issues cannot be fixed by medical science.

We as human beings are broken, but the broken things of the spirit are to be mended by God and God alone.

[learning]

Would you consider it wrong to go to a minister for advice, or a fellow christian

[A-Man]

:popcorn:

[Pretty Pink VICTORY]

Any believing, loving follower of Christ can encourage, and lift up another believer, through God's word and prayer. We are, in fact, instructed in scripture to do so.
this is MY quote from earlier.

[Pretty Pink VICTORY]

As long as you continue to believe that Psychiatrists and Psycologists on on the same level, medically speaking, with Medical Doctors, then we are an am impasse.

Dealing with the "psyche", feelings, emotions, etc. is NOT medical science.

[learning]

Yes, feeling and emotions are a product of the brain, they come from the brain, they are just studying this more now and 'psyche' is therefore, part of medical science. Part of brain science, neuro-science. A good book on this is 'Synaptic Self' by Joseph LeDoux.

I was just looking through a Christian College/University book about courses, and most of the 'Psyche' courses deal with human developement, and some things like schizophrenia, multiple-personalities, etc. I do believe that ministers, and fellow elders and friends in the church can and do, do a lot of good. But when it comes to things like schizophrenia and other things, like even spousal abuse, it does help to have someone who is trained in dealing with those things. For instance, my father was a minister, he did some counselling, talked to people suicidal, hey, my sister and I stayed all night with a lady who was suicidal once, (my sister poured her liquor down the drain and hid the knives). It was not fun listening to this lady tell her story of how she had been in high society, but then her fiance died before they were married and she turned against God. Anyways, my Dad had to drive her to the hospital to get help soon after.

We had a man come to our house when I was a little girl. He thought he was a prophet, but my Dad knew something was wrong with him. I remember looking at this man (who was harmless) and seeing him sleeping on our couch. My Father had to call the psyche hospital, and they knew him. They agreed he was harmless but needed help. (he looked like he'd been on drugs maybe?) I believe my Father knew this man was harmless, but that can be a spiritual gift to discern, so he knew it was OK for him to stay on the couch until someone else came. But my Father knew that this man was sort of 'out of it' too, and had enough sense to call the Psyche hospital. I know ministers, my Father included, who were able to talk to people that had guns and were threatening to kill themselves or others.The police were afraid to go in, but my Father was there talking to this guy. :) My Father can be nervous at times, but God can give a sense of peace too.

I don't think ministers are afraid to deal with spiritual problems, but they can discern when other help may be helpful too.

[kofh2u]

Yes, feeling and emotions are a product of the brain, they come from the brain, they are just studying this more now and 'psyche' is therefore, part of medical science. Part of brain science, neuro-science. A good book on this is 'Synaptic Self' by Joseph LeDoux.

I was just looking through a Christian College/University book about courses, and most of the 'Psyche' courses deal with human developement, and some things like schizophrenia, multiple-personalities, etc. I do believe that ministers, and fellow elders and friends in the church can and do, do a lot of good. But when it comes to things like schizophrenia and other things, like even spousal abuse, it does help to have someone who is trained in dealing with those things. For instance, my father was a minister, he did some counselling, talked to people suicidal, hey, my sister and I stayed all night with a lady who was suicidal once, (my sister poured her liquor down the drain and hid the knives). It was not fun listening to this lady tell her story of how she had been in high society, but then her fiance died before they were married and she turned against God. Anyways, my Dad had to drive her to the hospital to get help soon after.

We had a man come to our house when I was a little girl. He thought he was a prophet, but my Dad knew something was wrong with him. I remember looking at this man (who was harmless) and seeing him sleeping on our couch. My Father had to call the psyche hospital, and they knew him. They agreed he was harmless but needed help. (he looked like he'd been on drugs maybe?) I believe my Father knew this man was harmless, but that can be a spiritual gift to discern, so he knew it was OK for him to stay on the couch until someone else came. But my Father knew that this man was sort of 'out of it' too, and had enough sense to call the Psyche hospital. I know ministers, my Father included, who were able to talk to people that had guns and were threatening to kill themselves or others.The police were afraid to go in, but my Father was there talking to this guy. :) My Father can be nervous at times, but God can give a sense of peace too.

I don't think ministers are afraid to deal with spiritual problems, but they can discern when other help may be helpful too.


Counseling is an evermore growing aspect of ministry. It fills a vacuum of social needs. A vacuum that results from a poverty unable to afford secular services. Or, a vacuum from a monopoly of secular psychological advice that centers on bring people back into the system of things that caused the imbalance to occur in the first place.

Christ represents sanity.

Secular psychology treats "drop outs" from an enculturated insanity.

The madding crowd... it drives some people sane in response,and then it attacks them. Others are driven to desperation because they can not see any alternative to a world that they can not endure.

Psychological change requires a death in the old ways, and a renewal as powerful as birth itself, a new start. People need a new approach to life. People ned a new born again start.

Faith that they will overcome is all the sick can muster.

Hope is all they have, these people that require enormous strength to change behaviors.

These are behaviors which require abstinance in old habits. They must believe they can succeed, so Christ is a good start, he is their savior.

But, the insane are mostly content and unaware of their mental illness because tragedy has not confronted them. And, they are normal. They are like everyone else, that defines normal.

They assume insanity means different, not like everyone else. They measure their economic success, their sexual prowess, their status, their sense of belonging as a measure of their good adjustment. But they are mad, and ever madding.

They all need Christ, but that is a prescription we see they will not take, and, in gradually growing numbers.

Indeed, all seems well in the world to this madding crowd, does it not?

[theseed]

to expound a little more:

Psychology is the exploration, glorification and ultimate deification of the self which is in direct opposition to Chrisitianity and following Christ.
What about psychology that is taught by The Bible?

Romans 12:1-2

[Pretty Pink VICTORY]

What about psychology that is taught by The Bible?
Romans 12:1-2

1 I appeal to you therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship.2Do not be conformed to this world,but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.


Where in those verses is psychology involved whatsoever?

The transforming of the mind, spoken of here, is the reading/studying of God's Word, not the psychological selfism mantra, created by man.

[Abigail]

I'm not a big fan of psychology as I think a lot of it is unfounded nonsense, but I think you'll find that some secular psychologists do help people through default because if you go look in the Bible you see that these are advocating 'therapy' which could be found in the Bible all along....only they have come to their conclusion through years of watching to see the behaviour of people.

[kofh2u]

Romans 12:1-2

1 I appeal to you therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship.2Do not be conformed to this world,but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.


Where in those verses is psychology involved whatsoever?

The transforming of the mind, spoken of here, is the reading/studying of God's Word, not the psychological selfism mantra, created by man.

The scriptures are concerned totally with human behavior. The disciple of Human Behavior in ourvsecular investigations are still in the Dark Ages for two reasons.

One is that we do not understand what we have so far uncovered.

The second rea on is that the little we have come to understand no one believes in.

Christ promises to change both of these. Romans is just like the rest of the Bible, totally about how we are behaving and/or how we ought behave.

ROMANS 1,2:

1 I appeal to you therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies (in the manner in which you behave) as a living sacrifice (of drives, urges, and self-centeredness), holy (and different than that of the culture), and acceptable to God, which is your (internal) spiritual (like thinking the ancients called) worship.2Do not be conformed (in your thinking) to this world,but be transformed (in attitude) by the renewal of your mind, that by testing, (in good Conscience), you may discern (between the psychic archetypal forces) of what is the will of God, (immanently within), what is good (to act upon) and acceptable (to an altruistic outlook) and perfect (as Christ, our model).

Freudian Bible Interpretation

[Rusty T]

I've just started this book: Orthodox Psychotherapy (http://www.pelagia.org/htm/b02.en.orthodox_psychotherapy.00.htm). The link will take you to some chapters that are reproduced. So far, it's an interesting read.

rusty

[keith]

I'm not a big fan of psychology as I think a lot of it is unfounded nonsense, but I think you'll find that some secular psychologists do help people through default because if you go look in the Bible you see that these are advocating 'therapy' which could be found in the Bible all along....only they have come to their conclusion through years of watching to see the behaviour of people.
That is a good point. Theologians call this 'common grace' - for example there have been artists or musicians or scientists who have glimpsed insights of God's world even though we have no evidence that they had a personal relationship with God through Christ. It may well be that through careful observation secular psychologists may gain insight into areas of human thought and behaviour that are really useful. The Christian writer Larry Crabb calls this approach "spoiling the Egyptians" - ie taking away from the secular world those insights which are useful and do not contradict the teachings of God as revealed in the Bible.

This is an area of debate for those of us who are Christians and involved in some way with psychology/therapy/counseling. How do we discern whether an approach or apparent knowledge is being taken into Christian practice that is in fact undermining or contradicting the Gospel? The early church wrestled with gnostic ideas and there are modern day equivalents e.g. New Age ideas that may creep in by the back door. I think I can see why BabyC and others are deeply sceptical about secular psychology. Having said that my own approach would be to give priority to being shaped by the Word and the Spirit while acknowledging that there may still be a place for psychological therapy at certain points in an individuals life. I have a very good relationship with my pastor and would not want to be seen as a rival to what he does. Having worked for example with individuals with eating disorders and complex patterns of behaviour I reached the conclusion that although I hold the Word of God to be true, reliable, and Divinely inspired I cannot expect to find verses that will give me a direct answer to every problem. The Word can act as an anchor, a foundation and a reliable guide in every person's life but there is still the issue of us having to work out our salvation in fear and trembling.

My word, this is all starting to sound heavy. There is a good book in the IVP series, the one where they have 4 views on a topic and get different Christians to put their viewpoint. When I get home I shall check the title and post it for anyone interested - perhaps with a small synopsis for those who may not have the time to check out every source directly. :smile:

[PastorMike1956]

spoken like one with "perfect" mental health...

we dare not too close at ourselves do we...

and it is so nice when someone really knows what psychology is all about... perhaps you can give us some citations where you get your facts on the origins of psychology/psychiatry from...I'm sure we'd all benefit from such "extensive research" as I'm sure you have done on this subject.

[Abigail]

spoken like one with "perfect" mental health...

we dare not too close at ourselves do we...

and it is so nice when someone really knows what psychology is all about... perhaps you can give us some citations where you get your facts on the origins of psychology/psychiatry from...I'm sure we'd all benefit from such "extensive research" as I'm sure you have done on this subject.
whom are you addressing?

[learning]

.

My word, this is all starting to sound heavy. There is a good book in the IVP series, the one where they have 4 views on a topic and get different Christians to put their viewpoint. When I get home I shall check the title and post it for anyone interested - perhaps with a small synopsis for those who may not have the time to check out every source directly. :smile:

learning: I hope you find that book and post it, I'ld be interested.

I've heard of books by a psychologist or Dr. , which used some of the Bible in helping people to heal themselves, by looking to God. Something about Psalms 23 I think, can't remember the title. They would read it or other passages of the Bible, over and over until it really got into their mind to help bring about healing.

I actually have a book somewhere that is against some things of Psychology in Christian circles, and if I find it, I'll post it.

[kofh2u]

KOFHY:
Hello keith. I am impressed with your self confident, mature attitude that underlies your obvious openness.
So many Christians are fearful of really open thinking. This is because they are protecting their personal interests.
They have some fixed, rigid, traditional, and often growing archaic doctrine. They oppose new understandings, maybe their vocational ministery and their pocketbook that is tied to keeping their congregation exempt from insights into scripture not their own.

keith:
Theologians call this 'common grace' - for example there have been artists or musicians or scientists who have glimpsed insights of God's world even though we have no evidence that they had a personal relationship with God through Christ.

KOFHY:
Absolutely!
Cyrus the Great is a perfect example.

keith:
It may well be that through careful observation secular psychologists may gain insight into areas of human thought and behaviour that are really useful.

KOFHY:
Definitely.
And, visa versa. It may be that Christians, supported by secular thinkers "gain insight into areas of human thought and behaviour that are really useful. "

I see tremendous power for counselors in being able to ask people to have faith in Christian insights when they are EVEN supported by what the secular community knows:

1) Lucifer = The Pleasure Principle = Id
2) Satan = Physical Drives = Libido
3) Mammon = The Aggressive Drive = Ego
4) Devil = Feminine principle of Intuition = Anima
5) Baalzebub = The Reality Principle = Self
6) False Prophet = The Logical/Mathematical Mind = Superego
7) False Shepherd = Psychic Balance = Harmony


8) The Good Shepherd = Brotherliness = Conscience

keith:
The Christian writer Larry Crabb calls this approach "spoiling the Egyptians" - ie taking away from the secular world those insights which are useful and do not contradict the teachings of God as revealed in the Bible.

KOFHY:
Definitely!

keith:
This is an area of debate for those of us who are Christians and involved in some way with psychology/therapy/counseling. How do we discern whether an approach or apparent knowledge is being taken into Christian practice that is in fact undermining or contradicting the Gospel?

KOFHY:
Check the Bible, but not the dogma. Check the Bible, not the doctrine. Check the Bible, not the interpretation of the Bible by men who lived a thousand or more years ago.

keith:
The early church wrestled with gnostic ideas and there are modern day equivalents e.g. New Age ideas that may creep in by the back door. I think I can see why BabyC and others are deeply sceptical about secular psychology.
KOFHY:
Easy.
Validate the Bible with what secularly supports it. Not the other way around. Equate terms that are only separated by semantics.
The sexual license of Ba'al and Ashtoreh worshippers certainly is founded upon the economy of male sexual prowess (Libido) and the prostitution of female cooperation (Intuition).
Abortion is sacrifice of our children, at the highest places in the mountains of our institutionalized social practices, to the adolescent cultural interaction of Molech.

keith:
Having said that, my own approach would be to give priority to being shaped by the Word and the Spirit while acknowledging that there may still be a place for psychological therapy at certain points in an individuals life.

KOFHY: Excellent!

I have a very good relationship with my pastor and would not want to be seen as a rival to what he does. Having worked for example with individuals with eating disorders and complex patterns of behaviour I reached the conclusion that although I hold the Word of God to be true, reliable, and Divinely inspired I cannot expect to find verses that will give me a direct answer to every problem.

KOFHY:
Those problems are tied to "possession" by the archetpyal mental complex called the Pleasure Principle, sourced in the Id.

The Id is lucifer, evil, to be recognized for what it is, to be opposed by the effective response of making your Conscience be your guide by asking, "What would Jesus do?"

Get thy behind me Lucifer? To enemy is more clearly preceived and his ways more certain to be understood when the belief of Bible entities like Satan can be recognized as in us... not entering us from outside, but in our mind! We must learn about this kingdom of God within, and we must bridal tge seven evil fotces by the restrain of the power in Christ as God be witness ti our good Conscience.

keith:
The Word can act as an anchor, a foundation and a reliable guide in every person's life but there is still the issue of us having to work out our salvation in fear and trembling.

KOFHY:
"First young man," I would tell the client, "Know thyself."

[theseed]

Romans 12:1-2

1 I appeal to you therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship.2Do not be conformed to this world,but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.


Where in those verses is psychology involved whatsoever?

The transforming of the mind, spoken of here, is the reading/studying of God's Word, not the psychological selfism mantra, created by man.
Bingo, tranforming hte mind (psyche) is practicing psychology.

PS, through all the theories of psychology I've studied, I've never seen one that involved montra. You must be thinking of buddhism.

[kofh2u]

Bingo, tranforming hte mind (psyche) is practicing psychology.

PS, through all the theories of psychology I've studied, I've never seen one that involved montra. You must be thinking of buddhism.


Bingo! Yes... that is a winning point that scripture xoncerns a transformation, a complete change in perspective.

Psychology books define Attitudes as that quality ina person's thinking that is imperviois to change, doesn't change.

Unless, psychology is at work on it.

Now, that makes all religions basically equated to tge discipline of Human Behavioral Studies.

Montra? The Buddhist and those practicing TM use a mantra. And, I might agree that both are admitted holistic psychologies IMO, regardlessof the insistence upon higher powers at work.

True?

[Lazy Agnostic]

Every thought, every memory, every emotion has a physiological, electrochemicomechanical component. In that sense, we don't have our bodies, we are our bodies.

[kofh2u]

Every thought, every memory, every emotion has a physiological, electrochemicomechanical component. In that sense, we don't have our bodies, we are our bodies.

Hmmm...
Very 20th century.

Radio transmitters force electricity up and down broadcast antenna.

Electricity flows up and down neurons.

These flows of currect created magnet fields around the flow, the wave that forms and moves outward from these "antenna" are wireless electromagnetic waves identical to light, albeit at much different frequencies. I am the light, Jesus said. He may have meant that literally for us in this agd who ought be able to recognize thatthe mind of Christ was pure energy, as is our own thinking.

Mind is the software which runs on the hardware of the physical brain.

[keith]

learning: I hope you find that book and post it, I'ld be interested.

I've heard of books by a psychologist or Dr. , which used some of the Bible in helping people to heal themselves, by looking to God. Something about Psalms 23 I think, can't remember the title. They would read it or other passages of the Bible, over and over until it really got into their mind to help bring about healing.

I actually have a book somewhere that is against some things of Psychology in Christian circles, and if I find it, I'll post it.

Thanks for the interest and apologies for the delay in posting. The book I mentioned is called 'Psychology and Christianity' with contributions by Gary Collins, David Myers, David Powlinson, Robert Roberts. It is published by IVP so it comes out of an evangelical background. The 4 possible relationships considered are 1. 'Levels-of Explanation' view. Myers seems to be suggesting that science and faith should dialog and inform each other. Just to give a flavour, here is a little quote Psychological science and the spirit of faith, then, share similar ideals: humility before nature and skepticism of human presumptions. Psychological science enlivensancient biblical wisdom about human nature.....And psychological science challenges us to revisit certain of our assumptions, mindful that all truth is God's truth, and therfore to be welcomed raher than feared
2. Gary Collins puts forward the 'Integration View'. He puts the view that integration is worthwhile a) because Christians have a responsibility to care for the world, including its people.b) Because Christians have the challenge of understanding the world, including its people. Collins wants to retain a foundational position for Scripture in this endeavour - ..we do not jettison the scriptural foundation upon which we must build our lives, worldviews and psychologies. That biblical core of truth is the only sure rock of stability amidst the shifting sands of the contemporary world. Scripture is the foundation from which we integrate Christianity into psychology and into every nook and cranny of our lives
3. Robert Roberts puts a 'Christian Psychology ' view. A primary aim of Christian psychology is to make available the distinctive psychology of the Christian tradition to the intellect and practice of persons in our time. It is a different enterprise from integration, whose aim is to produce a happy blend of one or another of the twentieth century psychologies with the thought and practiuce of the church. The goal of Christian psychology, then, is two-dimensional: to read the tradition pure, and yet to read it for what we and our contemporaries can recognize as psychology.
4. David Powlinson puts a 'Biblical Counseling ' view. This view is the most critical of psychology as an enterprise. The entirety of human "Psychology" takes place God-referentially whether or not we are aware of it, whether or not our theories and therapies comprehend it. A person cannot be truly understood or truly aided if this lifeblood of humanness is drained away, leaving a figment, a best, an automaton, a humanoid, a counterfeit, a corpse to be studied and assisted Not only is psychology without reference to God fatally flawed but he sees psychology as a rival to the Faith. Modern psychology in its most significant form is a marketplace of differing popular philosophies of life. ...Each psychology's interpretive system is embodied in a set of categories and labels that map onto life lived. Norms and ideals set standards, against which diagnoses are made and toward which therapies aspire in seeking to alter life lived into something more worth living

Considering these writers are all from under the broad heading of 'evangelical' it may seem a little surprising that there are such a variety of views. If we substitute Faith versus Psychology and replace it with Reason versus Revelation we can see many of the same struggles going on that happen in science.

I hope this is useful to at least give a taster of the kind of ways Christians try to relate their faith and work.

[kofh2u]

Keith,
Reading the insights of these four men will hardly be necessary if you apply Bible Psychology.

Ezekiel confirms with his symbolic and transcendent chapters on the four ba ic "spiritual"factors in our invisible, non-meterial mind.

He speaks with awe about the insight he perceives, symbolizing the Four Functions of Carl Jung as a creature with four faces, an improvement in the Gentile concept of Janus, two-faced God.

Each of these men, the four, "think" about this matter, science, pdychology, theology frommone of these Jungian Functions.

What we will read will be contrasted and equally as valid points of view. One will be Intuitively based, (I) in Myers/Briggs notation.
The logical approach to the reflections on psycho-religious counseling is designated by Myers-Briggs with the symbol (T). We will be able to discern a more concrete and empirical, an experiential point of view, a libidinally observed and corrected behavioralanalysis, (S). I am certain that a common sense, rational, gut "feeling," (F), concerning the best approach will easily be recognized in reading these men in depth.

I can almost tell you how they will build their own little system of understandinb and remediating Human Behaviors using an overview of evangelical beliefs already inherent in their outlooks.

We ought get "four winds" of thought going here, soon to deviate into permutated sub-classes following from the mathematical possibilities:

4x3x2x1 = the twenty-four elder seats of human thinking.

[Dabid]

to expound a little more:

Psychology is the exploration, glorification and ultimate deification of the self which is in direct opposition to Chrisitianity and following Christ.

Obviously someone told you that when they were of unsound mind....

Moderation, ole bean, is they key to all understanding....

Look at both sides now.

[Dabid]

Let me just say that "Christian Psychology" is a farce....
:baby:C
Any believing, loving follower of Christ can encourage, and lift up another believer, through God's word and prayer. We are, in fact, instructed in scripture to do so.....

A genuine christian Psychologist will listen and understand a persons dilemma.
A genuine christian will listen and understand a persons dilemma.

Knowledge of behaviours and thinking patterns is available for all discerning thoughtful humans. How it is used is down to an individuals judgment.

If all christians cared enough to weep with those who weep and comfort those in distress Psycologists would find their customer base drastically reduced.

[Arthur]

Just a few points that occurred to me whilst reading this thread:

1. Yes, psychiatrists ARE on a par with medical doctors. Not least because (in the UK, at least) a psychiatrist is actually a medical doctor who has had additional training in psychology.

2. Offering a single criticism of all "psychology", such as "it glorifies the self" has no justification - because there are so many forms of psychology. Some of them, it is true, follow ideas that look very much like "salvation by works" - but not all of them, by any means. Likewise the idea that ALL psychology is based on the teaching of Eastern religions is again true of some schools of psychotherapy, but certainly not all of them.
And yes "Christian psychology" is a valid concept - as in the case of "nousthetic counselling," for example.

3. It may seem reasonable to suppose that going to one's minister is all that should be necessary - until you Stop and think about how many people there are in the world today who would be consulting their minister. A recent study showed that nearly 50% of the entire population of the USA will need psychological help at some time in their lives. If ministers were the only people responsible for dealing with this situation within the Christian community they'd have no time to do anything else - if they could cope at all.

4. What's wrong with the concept of Christians who are specialists in the area of psychology? Why wouldn't this be as acceptable as any other healing ministry?

Best wishes

Arthur