how does this fit in with a pretrib rapture?

[Sheepdog]

of course, you know my answer, but i'm curious to see how this fits into Futurist schemes, especially ones that (as far as i understand it) place the rapture at some point before the Res.

Now we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers and sisters, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve like the rest who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, so also we believe that God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep as Christians. For we tell you this by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will surely not go ahead of those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven with a shout of command, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be suddenly caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord. Therefore encourage one another with these words. 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, NET (link) (http://www.bible.org/netbible2/index.php?book=1th&chapter=4&verse=&submit=Lookup+Verse). Emph. me.

[Hitch]

of course, you know my answer, but i'm curious to see how this fits into Futurist schemes, especially ones that (as far as i understand it) place the rapture at some point before the Res.

Now we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers and sisters, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve like the rest who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, so also we believe that God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep as Christians. For we tell you this by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will surely not go ahead of those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven with a shout of command, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be suddenly caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord. Therefore encourage one another with these words. 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, NET (link) (http://www.bible.org/netbible2/index.php?book=1th&chapter=4&verse=&submit=Lookup+Verse). Emph. me.Well ya gotta admit,,, it fits in as well as any other pretrib notions.

[Sheepdog]

Well ya gotta admit,,, it fits in as well as any other pretrib notions.

do you mind elaborating, or is this more of a backhanded comment? :grin:

[Hitch]

Hmmmm lefthanded maybe...


The elphant in this favorite futurists garden is so big its always great fun to watch them dance around it shouting

WHAT ELEPHANT?



This one;


John 6:54
54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
(KJV)

Take care

H

[Ted]

Hitch,

I hadn't thought of that one, but it's quite good. Let's see if the futurists can see the "good and necessary consequences" of that passage.

Ted

[Sheepdog]

Hmmmm lefthanded maybe...

righthanded :poke: (i'm a lefty)

The elphant in this favorite futurists garden is so big its always great fun to watch them dance around it shouting

WHAT ELEPHANT?



This one;


John 6:54
54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
(KJV)

Take care

H

dang, i never considered it from the perspective of eschatology. interesting.

[Hitch]

For all the hyperbole wrt 'doctrines of men', preterism is a Christ centered eschatology.

[Sheepdog]

For all the hyperbole wrt 'doctrines of men', preterism is a Christ centered eschatology.
:yes:

[Terral]

Sheepdog:
Sheepdog >> of course, you know my answer, but i'm curious to see how this fits into Futurist schemes, especially ones that (as far as i understand it) place the rapture at some point before the Res.

Sheep quotes >> Now we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers and sisters, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve like the rest who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, so also we believe that God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep as Christians. For we tell you this by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will surely not go ahead of those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven with a shout of command, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be suddenly caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord. Therefore encourage one another with these words. 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, NET (link) (http://www.bible.org/netbible2/index.php?book=1th&chapter=4&verse=&submit=Lookup+Verse). Emph. me.
Once again the question of your OP is so vague as to show you are trolling with no intention of seriously debating the topic. Paul is describing these things in the future tense and connecting the fulfillment to when the ‘thousand years’ (2Pet. 3:8, Rev. 20:5) ‘day of the Lord’ (2Pet. 3:10, 1Thes. 5:1+2) is ‘at hand’ (2Thes. 2:2). He connects the ‘day of the Lord’ to the ‘times and epochs’ (1Thes. 5:1+2), and had no need to write about those things to these Thessalonians, because we are taken when that day COMES. Christ connects the ‘times and epochs’ to the restoration of the kingdom to Israel in Acts 1:6+7, or when Elijah comes to restore all things (Matt. 17:10+11, Acts 3:21-26). Christ is describing ‘end of the age’ events (Matthew 24) that all occur at the very END or final years of the same ‘day of the Lord.’ We know this is truth, because of the prophecies of Joel 2:28-32 and Peter’s use of them in Acts 2:17-21 where both say that “His Spirit” will be poured out on “All Mankind” first. Only then will the final judgment of the ‘great and glorious’ part of the same ‘day of the Lord’ (Joel 2:31, Acts 2:20) take place. Peter (2Pet. 3:7-12) and Zephaniah (Zeph. 1:1-7) both describe the end of the age with all things being destroyed from the face of the earth.
"The word of the LORD which came to Zephaniah . . . "I will completely remove all things from the face of the earth," declares the LORD. I will remove man and beast; I will remove the birds of the sky And the fish of the sea, And the ruins along with the wicked; And I will cut off man from the face of the earth," declares the LORD . . . .Be silent before the Lord GOD! For the day of the LORD is near, For the LORD has prepared a sacrifice, He has consecrated His guests.” Zephaniah 1:1-7.

"But by His word the present heavens and earth [ Rev. 20:11 ] are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men. But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day . . . But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which [ during that day ] the heavens will pass away [ Matt. 24:35 ] with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up. Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat!” 2Peter 3:7-12.
The imperatives contained within the Joel 2 and Acts 2 prophecies concerning the ‘thousand years’ period show clearly that the ‘day of the Lord’ is not yet ‘at hand.’ Therefore, we are standing in the same shoes as the Thessalonians in anticipation of that day beginning. All of the ‘day of the Lord’ and ‘end of the age’ prophecies of Scripture are still future.

In Christ,

Terral

[Hitch]

We know this is truth, because of the prophecies of Joel 2:28-32 and Peter’s use of them in Acts 2:17-21 where both say that “His Spirit” will be poured out on “All Mankind” first. Only then will the final judgment of the ‘great and glorious’ part of the same ‘day of the Lord’ (Joel 2:31, Acts 2:20) take place. Peter (2Pet. 3:7-12) and Zephaniah (Zeph. 1:1-7) both describe the end of the age with all things being destroyed from the face of the earth.

The 'truth' is that despite the text and Pete's unquestionable apostolic status , you claim what Pete defines as fufilled is yet to come.

[Sheepdog]

Sheepdog:

Once again the question of your OP is so vague as to show you are trolling with no intention of seriously debating the topic.

thank you, Terral, for showing us once again how rational you are. :lolo:

how's taht tin foil hat looking, these days?

Paul is describing these things in the future tense and connecting the fulfillment to when the ‘thousand years’ (2Pet. 3:8, Rev. 20:5) ‘day of the Lord’ (2Pet. 3:10, 1Thes. 5:1+2) is ‘at hand’ (2Thes. 2:2). He connects the ‘day of the Lord’ to the ‘times and epochs’ (1Thes. 5:1+2), and had no need to write about those things to these Thessalonians, because we are taken when that day COMES. Christ connects the ‘times and epochs’ to the restoration of the kingdom to Israel in Acts 1:6+7, or when Elijah comes to restore all things (Matt. 17:10+11, Acts 3:21-26). Christ is describing ‘end of the age’ events (Matthew 24) that all occur at the very END or final years of the same ‘day of the Lord.’ We know this is truth, because of the prophecies of Joel 2:28-32 and Peter’s use of them in Acts 2:17-21 where both say that “His Spirit” will be poured out on “All Mankind” first. Only then will the final judgment of the ‘great and glorious’ part of the same ‘day of the Lord’ (Joel 2:31, Acts 2:20) take place. Peter (2Pet. 3:7-12) and Zephaniah (Zeph. 1:1-7) both describe the end of the age with all things being destroyed from the face of the earth.

The imperatives contained within the Joel 2 and Acts 2 prophecies concerning the ‘thousand years’ period show clearly that the ‘day of the Lord’ is not yet ‘at hand.’ Therefore, we are standing in the same shoes as the Thessalonians in anticipation of that day beginning. All of the ‘day of the Lord’ and ‘end of the age’ prophecies of Scripture are still future.

In Christ,

Terral

of course, it is noted that none of this actually anwers my question. but, who here expects you to actually deal with the immediate issue, anymore?

[Terral]

Sheep:
Sheep >> of course, it is noted that none of this actually anwers my question. but, who here expects you to actually deal with the immediate issue, anymore?
You are kidding right? You asked how 1Thes. 4:13-18 fits into our futurist pretrib rapture view, and my response answers that question using Scripture. Your response to me, on the other hand, represents more Preterist nonsense; as usual. My view is that our rapture (1Thes. 4:17) takes place 1000 years prior to the events of Matthew 24:4-31. How is that for a ‘pre’ tribulation interpretation? : 0 ). Please do not attempt to respond using Scripture, as we already know you are incapable of even taking the time to Capitalize or spell check anything you write . . .

In Christ,

Terral

[Xavier]

Of course, Does Terral even bother to mention 1 Thess. 4 in his "response"???

That would be a NO!

But, Sheep is correct... No one actually expects him to be able to answer direct questions without playing Prooftext Roulette.

Yours,
Xavier

[Sheepdog]

Sheep:

You are kidding right? You asked how 1Thes. 4:13-18 fits into our futurist pretrib rapture view, and my response answers that question using Scripture. Your response to me, on the other hand, represents more Preterist nonsense; as usual. My view is that our rapture (1Thes. 4:17) takes place 1000 years prior to the events of Matthew 24:4-31. How is that for a ‘pre’ tribulation interpretation? : 0 ).

so, i take it you also believe the Resurrection also happens 1000 years before the events in Matt. 24? because, if Paul is right, then the Resurrection will happen first, then the rapture.

Please do not attempt to respond using Scripture, as we already know you are incapable of even taking the time to Capitalize or spell check anything you write . . . ]

sowwy bub. i don't taek orders from yoo. :rock:

[Hitch]

so, i take it you also believe the Resurrection also happens 1000 years before the events in Matt. 24? because, if Paul is right, then the Resurrection will happen first, then the rapture.Where ya suppose he got that idea?

[Terral]

Sheep:
Sheep >> So, I take it you also believe the Resurrection also happens 1000 years before the events in Matt. 24? Because, if Paul is right, then the Resurrection will happen first, then the rapture.
We can see by Paul’s words that the resurrection will most definitely come first.
“For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.” 1Thes. 4:14-17.
How can Paul be more clear than to say that the ‘dead in Christ will rise first.’? Those who are alive when the day of the Lord is ‘at hand’ (2Thes. 2:2) will be ‘caught up’ and translated in the twinkling of an eye.
“Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.” 1Cor. 15:51-53.
The dead are ‘raised imperishable,’ or translated from mortal to immortal at the moment the trumpet sounds. Paul then goes on to say that “we will be changed,” or the saved members of the body will put on immortality just after the dead are raised. This is the first resurrection that John talks about in Revelation 20:5+6. Peter, John, James and all the members of the kingdom bride from 2000 years ago will be resurrected with us, when the coming thousand years (2Pet. 3:8) day of the Lord (2Pet. 3:10) BEGINS. Those members of the kingdom bride will sit on thrones and judge over the twelve tribes of Israel (Luke 22:30, Rev. 20:4) during that thousand years. The members of the this ‘dispensation of God’s grace’ (Eph. 3:2) who have been gathered over the past 2000 years will take their seats in the heavenly places ‘in’ Christ Jesus (Eph. 2:6) and judge the world and the angels (1Cor. 6:2+3). Everyone saved through obedience to the ‘gospel of the kingdom’ (Matt. 24:14) during that thousand years will be added to the ‘bride’ (John 3:29) of prophecy to be joined to Christ at the marriage supper of the Lamb (Rev. 19:5-10).

Everyone taking part of the first resurrection has a greater position in the heavenly than those who come along down the road, as the second death has no more power of those of the first resurrection (Rev. 20:6). Satan and all his forces of evil are released from the pit (Rev. 12:12) at the end of those 1000 years (Rev. 20:7) at the 'end of the age,' and the beast sets up his ‘abomination of desolation’ (Matt. 24:15) to be worshipped as God (2Thes. 2:4, Rev. 13:8). But our mystery church (Eph. 5:32) is with the Lord a thousand years before any of that comes to pass. After they are all judged and thrown into the lake of fire (Rev. 19:20, 20:10-15), then we head into the new heavens and new earth (Rev. 21:1+).

In Christ,

Terral

[Hitch]

Heh heh, I reckon the ink is blurry in most futurist's bibles, at least around John six...

[Tim C.]

of course, you know my answer, but i'm curious to see how this fits into Futurist schemes, especially ones that (as far as i understand it) place the rapture at some point before the Res.

Now we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers and sisters, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve like the rest who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, so also we believe that God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep as Christians. For we tell you this by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will surely not go ahead of those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven with a shout of command, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be suddenly caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord. Therefore encourage one another with these words. 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, NET (link). Emph. me.At "some point before the Res."? The text describes a resurrection event for the Body of Christ. Both dead and living Christians are included.

Are you questioning the idea that only living believers are caught up into the air to meet the Lord, and that the resurrection of dead believers doesn't happen until later? Well, I have never seen that idea presented by a dispensationalist.

-Tim

[Tim C.]

My comments above are really just a "no duh" answer to the question.

The fact that the OP asked such a question only demonstrates that he doesn't really know what on earth he is talking about. Published dispensationalists have never once claimed that the rapture only concerns living believers, and is not a resurrection event for the Body of Christ.

Lurkers beware. Many "opponents" of dispensationalism don't really have the slightest clue as to what they are talking about. Apparently they don't study.

-Tim

[Chief of Staff Lizard]

My comments above are really just a "no duh" answer to the question.

The fact that the OP asked such a question only demonstrates that he doesn't really know what on earth he is talking about. Published dispensationalists have never once claimed that the rapture only concerns living believers, and is not a resurrection event for the Body of Christ.:huh:

Where in the OP does sheepdog claim that anyone said the rapture was for just living Christians?

of course, you know my answer, but i'm curious to see how this fits into Futurist schemes, especially ones that (as far as i understand it) place the rapture at some point before the Res.




Now we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers and sisters, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve like the rest who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, so also we believe that God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep as Christians. For we tell you this by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will surely not go ahead of those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven with a shout of command, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be suddenly caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord. Therefore encourage one another with these words. 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, NET (link) (http://www.bible.org/netbible2/index.php?book=1th&chapter=4&verse=&submit=Lookup+Verse). Emph. me.




Dispensational future differentiate between the rapture (usually pretrib premil) and limmited to believers and the final resurrection of all (believers and non-believers alike) at the end of time (aka the end of the millenium).

The one who is showing a lack of understanding of the other's position is Tim C.

"The Res." in the OP is referring to the final resurrection of both the believer and the non-believer at the final judgment. No one ever suggested a rapture for "just the living believers". :no:

Lurkers beware. Many "opponents" of dispensationalism don't really have the slightest clue as to what they are talking about. Apparently they don't study.

-Tim
Lurkers beware. Many "proponents" of dipensationalism don't really have the slightest clue as to what they are talking about. Apparently they don't study.
:sigh:
Come on Tim. This is the kind of reactionary strawman I expect from Terral. You are more capable than this.

Now that that has been cleared up can we get back on topic?

[Sheepdog]

What's the matter, Tim C.? Wake up on the wrong side of the floor this morning?

The fact that the OP asked such a question only demonstrates that he doesn't really know what on earth he is talking about. Published dispensationalists have never once claimed that the rapture only concerns living believers, and is not a resurrection event for the Body of Christ.

My question was directed to dispies as they have presented their position to me. Did i ask Published Dispenastionalists? No. i asked average Joes like yourself and me. If you want to gripe, gripe at your fellow dispies for not even understanding their own position.

see also Far's post above, as he is right on the money.

Lurkers beware. Many "opponents" of dispensationalism don't really have the slightest clue as to what they are talking about. Apparently they don't study.

Lurkers beware, Tim C. is grouchy in the morning, if he hasn't had his Colon-O's. Dealing with him is like eating cereal with a fork. :haha:

[Tim C.]

Where in the OP does sheepdog claim that anyone said the rapture was for just living Christians?Gee, lets see.

He titles his post: "how does this fit in with a pretrib rapture?"

Then he underlines the following portions of 1Thessalonians 4:

"Now we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers and sisters, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve like the rest who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, so also we believe that God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep as Christians. For we tell you this by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will surely not go ahead of those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven with a shout of command, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be suddenly caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord. Therefore encourage one another with these words. 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, NET (link). Emph. me."

Now, lets see.

Q: This person is criticising what?

A: The pretribulational rapture of the church (see the title of his post).

Q: What is his criticism?

A: His criticism is that the rapture is not to be placed prior to the resurrection of believers.

Q: What is his evidence?

A: His evidence is the parts of 1Thessalonians 4 which tell us that living believers are not changed and caught up into the air until the dead Christians have already been resurrected and caught up into the air.

Thus, we have:

1.) Either a mistake on the part of the OP, in which "pretrib rapture" is used to refer to a strange minority view rather than the pretribulational rapture of the church as taught by all published dispensationalists.

2.) Or, a complete ignorance of the doctrine on the part of the OP.

Which is it?

Dispensational future differentiate between the rapture (usually pretrib premil) and limmited to believers and the final resurrection of all (believers and non-believers alike) at the end of time (aka the end of the millenium).That has nothing to do with this subject, Faramir. Futurist premillennialists have never taught that the "cathing up" concerns living Christians only. That is false information. We have always taught that the rapture is a resurrection event for the Body of Christ, and that it concerns both dead and living Christians. All ya gotta do is read 1Thessalonians 4 for goodness sakes!

The one who is showing a lack of understanding of the other's position is Tim C.Wrong, as usual. Either the OP was mistaken in refering to that weird view as "pretrib rapture," or, a much more likely explanation, the OP is perfectly ignorant of the very basics of dispensational teaching.

"The Res." in the OP is referring to the final resurrection of both the believer and the non-believer at the final judgment. No one ever suggested a rapture for "just the living believers".Oh, I see, so the OP was attempting to critique the pretribulational rapture via his own covenantalist perspective? Gee Faramir, something tells me that such a thing is futile and stupid. This is supposed to cause me to think that Sheepdog actually has a clue as to what he is talking about? Give me a break.

But you're wrong anyways. The original question did not ask how it is that a pretribulational rapture can be alligned with the alleged "single universal resurrection of all men" at the end of the world. Just read the original post. It was asking how a pretribulational rapture of the living could occur prior to the resurrection of believers at the second advent. The "evidence" was the fact that 1Thessalonians 4 says that our "catching up" only occurs after the resurrection of dead Christians. This question demonstrates the complete ignorance of the OP, sorry to tell ya.

-Tim

[Tim C.]

What's the matter, Tim C.? Wake up on the wrong side of the floor this morning?Whatsa matter is that I see another completely ignorant person attempting to "challenge" our view with a question that doesn't make ANY sense at all. I suggest you study dispensational theology and get to know it before attempting any sort of "critique."

My question was directed to dispies as they have presented their position to me. Did i ask Published Dispenastionalists? No. i asked average Joes like yourself and me. If you want to gripe, gripe at your fellow dispies for not even understanding their own position.Oh? Dispensationalists here at TWEB have told you that the pretribulational rapture concerns only living believers? They have told you that dead Christians are not included in that event? I find that hard to believe. It certainly is not what dispensational authors have ever taught. Please provide these quotes.

-Tim

[Sheepdog]

[size=2]Whatsa matter is that I see another completely ignorant person attempting to "challenge" our view with a question that doesn't make ANY sense at all.

Well so far, the question has made perfect sense everyone here but you.

Even so, does that give you a right to whine like a big fat baby?

I suggest you study dispensational theology and get to know it before attempting any sort of "critique."

Read the OP first. This wasn't about dispensational theology in particular, but any futurist theology that features a pre-trib rapture. looks like we have another case of Tim C's head growing past the maximum cpacity of the room he is in.

Oh? Dispensationalists here at TWEB have told you that the pretribulational rapture concerns only living believers? They have told you that dead Christians are not included in that event? I find that hard to believe. It certainly is not what dispensational authors have ever taught. Please provide these quotes.

did i say only here on TWeb? it isn't that hard to believe to anyone else. but of course, i keep forgetting that the solar system revolves around Tim C's head.

[Tim C.]

Well so far, the question has made perfect sense everyone here but you.

Even so, does that give you a right to whine like a big fat baby?Uh, you originally questioned how it is that a pretribulational rapture of the living could occur before the resurrection event, when in fact the passage in question (1Thessalonians 4) states that the living are not caught up until the dead are first raised and caught up. The very nature of your question demonstrates that you don't even know what the pretribulational rapture of the church is to begin with! You expect us to think that you have good legitimate arguments to make against dispensational theology, yet you don't even know what the rapture is? How can someone not know what the rapture is? You demonstrate a severe lack of knowledge concerning dispensational teaching, sir.

Read the OP first. This wasn't about dispensational theology in particular, but any futurist theology that features a pre-trib rapture. looks like we have another case of Tim C's head growing past the maximum cpacity of the room he is in.Sir, I want you to quote me the futurist premillennialists who teach that the "rapture" concerns living Christians only. You are "complaining" about a view that doesn't even exist!

did i say only here on TWeb? it isn't that hard to believe to anyone else. but of course, i keep forgetting that the solar system revolves around Tim C's head.Quote them. I don't care where the quotes come from. Just quote me these alleged "dispensationalists who teach a rapture of the living only."

-Tim

[Chief of Staff Lizard]

Gee, lets see.

He titles his post: "how does this fit in with a pretrib rapture?"

Then he underlines the following portions of 1Thessalonians 4:

"Now we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers and sisters, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve like the rest who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, so also we believe that God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep as Christians. For we tell you this by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will surely not go ahead of those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven with a shout of command, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be suddenly caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord. Therefore encourage one another with these words. 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, NET (link). Emph. me."

Now, lets see.

Q: This person is criticising what?
Nothing!!!!

A: The pretribulational rapture of the church (see the title of his post).
A question is not a criticism. Are we a bit sinsative today?

Q: What is his criticism?

A: His criticism is that the rapture is not to be placed prior to the resurrection of believers.
No his question not criticism, is how is the passage in question understood within the context of a pretrib rapture that takes place before the Res.

No where in that post did Sheepdog say that the pre trib rapture did not include the resurrection of the dead believers. I understood him to mean that the rapture as understood by futurist, is to take place before the general resurrection of all people at the end of time. Not before the resurrection of dead beleivers at that time. And sheepdog indicated that I was correct.


So we have:

1. Me saying that Tim C. totally misread Sheepdogs OP.
2. Sheepdog saying, "see also Far's post above, as he is right on the money."
3. Tim C. insisting that he knows better than the author what the author meant.

Now I can see how this is an honest misunderstanding based on your ignorance of preterist doctrine (IOW, I knew what SD meant by the Res., but it is understandable that you did not.).

However, now that this has been pointed out, it is time to acknowledge the misunderstanding and move on.

1.) Either a mistake on the part of the OP, in which "pretrib rapture" is used to refer to a strange minority view rather than the pretribulational rapture of the church as taught by all published dispensationalists.

2.) Or, a complete ignorance of the doctrine on the part of the OP.

Which is it?


False dilema Tim. The answer is:

3.) A complete misunderstanding of the OP by Tim C who is quick to place ignorance on Sheepdog and also quick to identify a 'question' as a criticism?

[Terral]

Hi Tim:
Tim to SheepDog >> The very nature of your question demonstrates that you don't even know what the pretribulational rapture of the church is to begin with! You expect us to think that you have good legitimate arguments to make against dispensational theology, yet you don't even know what the rapture is? How can someone not know what the rapture is? You demonstrate a severe lack of knowledge concerning dispensational teaching, sir.
You are falling right into the trap that Sheepdog has set for anyone holding the Pretrib interpretation of Scripture. He runs diversion for the other Preterists on this site by starting threads that ask questions of what they call ‘Futurists’ while offering no hypothesis or conclusions on the topic whatsoever. Sheepdog is trolling and is reeling you in like the big fat fish. Heh. Welcome to TheologyWeb.com that is run by Preterists and double standards are king. Go back through the thread and try to find where Sheepdog has presented Scripture to support his interpretations of the target verses in the OP. Where does he state his interpretation and explanation of Paul’s teachings on our mystery translation (1Cor. 15:51-53, 1Thes. 4:16+17) in this thread that establish any kind of timeline associated with the Great Tribulation (Matt. 24:21) or any other event? Instead of participating in his own thread with the intention of honest debate over the points relating to this topic, he is here to attack the person of anybody trying to present a futurist explanation. These are underhanded tactics that are not allowed by most of the Boards where I hold membership.

The weakness of the Preterist Theology itself has created the need for people like Sheepdog to harass those who disagree. This explains why you see little support for your interpretations on this Board, because the Preterists badger those holding your views with personal attacks until they find someplace else to spend their time. The man of God who knows the truth recognizes that these Preterists are controlled by the deluding influence of 2Thes. 2:11, and that their practices align themselves with a form of wickedness described in the following verse. They have been blinded by their own form of Preterism and seek only to deceive others by the same methods that led to their condition. In the end we are forced to forgive them “for they know not what they do.”

If you will consider their views carefully, you will come to realize that the interpretations of Preterism are self defeating. Most every Preterist will give you a series of arguments that leads directly to Matthew 24:34 to redefine the phrase “this generation.” They Pretend that Christ is addressing “that generation” living 2000 years ago, instead of listening to Christ and recognizing His own definition. The generation to see all those signs in Matt. 24:3-29 shall see “your coming” and the “end of the age,” as the Twelve asked in Matt. 24:3. Christ had no clue about whether He was addressing ‘that generation’ living 2000 years ago, or one living 10,000 years in the future. The ‘Father Alone’ (vs. 36) knows when all of those ‘end of the age’ events take place. The Preterists say that Peter’s generation is ‘this generation’ of Matthew 24, but that represents the same people who gave us our NT. Where do we see any of them write about Christ coming on the clouds with His angels (Matt. 24:30+31) at the end of the age? NOPLACE! They are forced to stand with everyone else and read Christ’s prophecies about these future events while ‘claiming’ that all these things already took place. Christ’s coming and the ‘end of the age’ are events relating to the fulfillment all the ‘day of the Lord’ (Zeph. 1:1-7, Joel 2:28-32, Acts 2:17-19, 2Pet. 3:7-12, etc.) prophecies of Scripture. When you sit down and write down all the end of the age events associated with the fulfillment of the ‘day of the Lord,’ then you plainly see that NONE of those prophecies have been fulfilled. The Preterist view that “The Romans Did It In 70 AD” is NONSENSE.

You are dealing with a group of people willing to turn a blind eye to practically everything Scripture says about the ‘end of the age’ and the ‘day of the Lord’ in order to prop up their man-made Preterism. They are trying desperately to convince the unstable and immature that the prophecies of Revelation were fulfilled twenty or thirty years (70 AD) before John even penned the letter (90-100 AD), and hundreds of years before that book of prophecy (Rev. 22:7,10, etc.) was canonized as part of NT Scripture. Christ is describing the ‘end of the age’ prophecies of Zechariah 14 being fulfilled in His Olivet Discourse of Matthew 24 where the only two uses of the phrase “Mount of Olives” are found (Zech. 14:4).
“Then the LORD will go forth and fight against those nations, as when He fights on a day of battle. In that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which is in front of Jerusalem on the east; and the Mount of Olives will be split in its middle from east to west by a very large valley, so that half of the mountain will move toward the north and the other half toward the south.” Zechariah 14:3+4.
The Preterists say that “the Mount of Olives, which is in front of Jerusalem on the east” and the very same spot where Christ is giving His Olivet Discourse is a reference to ‘peoples’ who shall be divided. Instead of recognizing that the fulfillment of Zechariah 14 is on the mind of Christ in Matthew 24, when everything in the region is torn down, they try to sell the notion that Christ is talking about “The Romans Doing It In 70 AD.” Since Zechariah 14 does not fit into their Preterist Theology, they redefine the terms of the prophecies and Pretend those words do not exist. Accepting the doctrinal teachings of Preterism is all about Pretending Scripture says something totally different that understood by a simple reading of the Text. Therefore, quote the Preterist’s name at the top of the page, but write to the third party reader yet to be deceived by their form of wickedness. We cannot help those already imprisoned by the deluding influence into believing their nonsense, but can lend assistance to those visiting them before they also take up residence among them.

In the end, our mystery translation (1Thes. 4:16+17) takes place when the 'day of the Lord' is AT HAND. 2Thes. 2:2. Only then will the 'thousand years' (2Pet. 3:8, Rev. 20:5) 'day of the Lord' (2Pet. 3:10) BEGIN. Then after that thousand years is complete, and "His Spirit" has been poured out on "All Mankind" (Joel 2:28, Acts 2:17) THEN the 'end of the age' events of Matthew 24 will be fulfilled. Preterists do not recognized the differences between the future Kingdom Dispensation of Matthew 24 and our "Dispensation of God's grace" (Eph. 3:2) living in the world today.

In Christ,

Terral

[Spinyn00bman]

Can I jump into this fray and make a simple point?

I have read the postings in this thread with mounting concern. I asked myself, if I were an athiest, agnostic, or even struggling believer reading these posts, would I see the love of Christ shining through? Sadly I had to say no. I see individuals who call themselves christians doing nothing but slamming and insulting each other. I have to believe that Jesus is MUCH MORE concerned with the attitudes displayed here than who agrees on when the rapture is.

Why does it even matter when the rapture occurs? If you live each day like CHrist is coming back tomorrow, none of this is important.

I hope you guys see what I am getting at. You may not agree, but I can alsmost see Christ cringe with each verbal barb you are tossing back and forth.

Just a thought!!

:ahem:

[Tim C.]

Now I can see how this is an honest misunderstanding based on your ignorance of preterist doctrine (IOW, I knew what SD meant by the Res., but it is understandable that you did not.)Dear Faramir,

I think it is ridiculous of you to suggest that Sheepdog was critiquing pretribulationism from a "single universal resurrection" perspective. All you gotta do is read his use of 1Thessalonians 4 in his OP to see the question he was raising. Quit making up nonsense.

However, now that this has been pointed out, it is time to acknowledge the misunderstanding and move on.Don't be silly.

Sheepdog questioned how it is that pretribulationists can believe in a pretribulational rapture of the church, when in fact 1Thessalonians 4 says that the living are not caught up until after the resurrection of the dead in Christ. Uh... duh... the pretribulational rapture is a resurrection event in which all members of the body of Christ, dead and living, are resurrected and caught up into the air to meet the Lord.

Who has EVER taught that the pretribulational rapture of the church concerns living believers only? Who has EVER taught this, Faramir?

I await these quotes of these alleged futurist premillennialists who have taught that the rapture of living believers precedes any resurrection event.

Sheepdog has demonstrated his perfect ignorance of our teaching. I pointed out to him that he is criticising a view which doesn't even exist. Instead of apologizing for his simpleton error, he chose rather to make up the nonsense that many dispensational laymen and non-TWEB dispensationalists believe in this alleged "rapture of the living only." I await these quotes of these alleged futurist premillennialists who teach it.

-Tim

[Chief of Staff Lizard]

Hi Tim:

You are falling right into the trap that Sheepdog has set for anyone holding the Pretrib interpretation of Scripture.



Egads, sheepdog we have been figured out. I told you that Terral was too smart for us, but you wouldn’t listen to me.



He runs diversion for the other Preterists on this site by starting threads that ask questions of what they call ‘Futurists’ while offering no hypothesis or conclusions on the topic whatsoever.



Oh no!!!! :bawl: No that sheepdogs diversion has been exposed, we preterist will have to resort to sound exegesis and scriptural support to refute the mere assertions of the great Terral. Drated foiled again.



Sheepdog is trolling and is reeling you in like the big fat fish.



:rhani:



Heh. Welcome to TheologyWeb.com that is run by Preterists and double standards are king.



:twebwelcome:



Go back through the thread and try to find where Sheepdog has presented Scripture to support his interpretations of the target verses in the OP. Where does he state his interpretation and explanation of Paul’s teachings on our mystery translation (1Cor. 15:51-53, 1Thes. 4:16+17) in this thread that establish any kind of timeline associated with the Great Tribulation (Matt. 24:21) or any other event?



Once again we have been foiled. The brilliant Terral has seen through our meager preterist schemes to not start threads exactly as Terral would. We thought we could fool the great Terral by asking a simple question. But no, somehow (I’m not sure how but if Terral says so it must be true) this is dishonest.



Instead of participating in his own thread with the intention of honest debate over the points relating to this topic, he is here to attack the person of anybody trying to present a futurist explanation.



I told sheepdog that his vicious attack disguised as an honest question, would not fool a mastermind like Terral. But did he listen to me? :no:



These are underhanded tactics that are not allowed by most of the Boards where I hold membership.



They were not allowed at the other boards we were members at either so we started TWeb for the sole purpose of luring futurist here so we can harass them. All the other forums are just a clever ruse, but not clever enough to fool Terral.



The weakness of the Preterist Theology itself has created the need for people like Sheepdog to harass those who disagree. This explains why you see little support for your interpretations on this Board, because the Preterists badger those holding your views with personal attacks until they find someplace else to spend their time.



Once again Terral has seen through the machinations of the preterist posse. Of course we start out with sound exegesis and scriptural support for our position. But geniuses like Terral simply ignore it or even worse refute it with the power of his mere assertions. Who can stand up to such awesome arguments? Not I. That is why I and study hound have resorted harassment.



The man of God who knows the truth recognizes that these Preterists are controlled by the deluding influence of 2Thes. 2:11, and that their practices align themselves with a form of wickedness described in the following verse. They have been blinded by their own form of Preterism and seek only to deceive others by the same methods that led to their condition. In the end we are forced to forgive them “for they know not what they do.”



Gee. If these were not coming from a genius like Terral I would think that this was an ad hominim attack. But Terral is so right and so smart that he is above such low things. I must be mistaken.



If you will consider their views carefully, you will come to realize that the interpretations of Preterism are self defeating. Most every Preterist will give you a series of arguments that leads directly to Matthew 24:34 to redefine the phrase “this generation.” They Pretend that Christ is addressing “that generation” living 2000 years ago, instead of listening to Christ and recognizing His own definition. The generation to see all those signs in Matt. 24:3-29 shall see “your coming” and the “end of the age,” as the Twelve asked in Matt. 24:3. Christ had no clue about whether He was addressing ‘that generation’ living 2000 years ago, or one living 10,000 years in the future. The ‘Father Alone’ (vs. 36) knows when all of those ‘end of the age’ events take place. The Preterists say that Peter’s generation is ‘this generation’ of Matthew 24, but that represents the same people who gave us our NT. Where do we see any of them write about Christ coming on the clouds with His angels (Matt. 24:30+31) at the end of the age? NOPLACE! They are forced to stand with everyone else and read Christ’s prophecies about these future events while ‘claiming’ that all these things already took place. Christ’s coming and the ‘end of the age’ are events relating to the fulfillment all the ‘day of the Lord’ (Zeph. 1:1-7, Joel 2:28-32, Acts 2:17-19, 2Pet. 3:7-12, etc.) prophecies of Scripture. When you sit down and write down all the end of the age events associated with the fulfillment of the ‘day of the Lord,’ then you plainly see that NONE of those prophecies have been fulfilled. The Preterist view that “The Romans Did It In 70 AD” is NONSENSE.

You are dealing with a group of people willing to turn a blind eye to practically everything Scripture says about the ‘end of the age’ and the ‘day of the Lord’ in order to prop up their man-made Preterism. They are trying desperately to convince the unstable and immature that the prophecies of Revelation were fulfilled twenty or thirty years (70 AD) before John even penned the letter (90-100 AD), and hundreds of years before that book of prophecy (Rev. 22:7,10, etc.) was canonized as part of NT Scripture. Christ is describing the ‘end of the age’ prophecies of Zechariah 14 being fulfilled in His Olivet Discourse of Matthew 24 where the only two uses of the phrase “Mount of Olives” are found (Zech. 14:4).

The Preterists say that “the Mount of Olives, which is in front of Jerusalem on the east” and the very same spot where Christ is giving His Olivet Discourse is a reference to ‘peoples’ who shall be divided. Instead of recognizing that the fulfillment of Zechariah 14 is on the mind of Christ in Matthew 24, when everything in the region is torn down, they try to sell the notion that Christ is talking about “The Romans Doing It In 70 AD.” Since Zechariah 14 does not fit into their Preterist Theology, they redefine the terms of the prophecies and Pretend those words do not exist. Accepting the doctrinal teachings of Preterism is all about Pretending Scripture says something totally different that understood by a simple reading of the Text. Therefore, quote the Preterist’s name at the top of the page, but write to the third party reader yet to be deceived by their form of wickedness. We cannot help those already imprisoned by the deluding influence into believing their nonsense, but can lend assistance to those visiting them before they also take up residence among them.

In the end, our mystery translation (1Thes. 4:16+17) takes place when the 'day of the Lord' is AT HAND. 2Thes. 2:2. Only then will the 'thousand years' (2Pet. 3:8, Rev. 20:5) 'day of the Lord' (2Pet. 3:10) BEGIN. Then after that thousand years is complete, and "His Spirit" has been poured out on "All Mankind" (Joel 2:28, Acts 2:17) THEN the 'end of the age' events of Matthew 24 will be fulfilled. Preterists do not recognized the differences between the future Kingdom Dispensation of Matthew 24 and our "Dispensation of God's grace" (Eph. 3:2) living in the world today.

In Christ,

Terral



Wow Terral. That was truly awesome. You know, I started to try to refute that with well thought exegetical analysis using scripture to support my views. But how could that stand up to the power of your mere assertions. Besides, I have presented well thought out points before, only to have you ignore them (as is your right as a super genius). But for the sake of those reading this who have not seen my meager attempts to refute Terral’s assertions using sound exegisis here are a few links to my work:



http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?t=43767&page=2&pp=16 (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?t=43767&page=2&pp=16)



(post 20, 36, 58 for starters)



http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?t=45270 (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?t=45270)



post 2



http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?t=45676 (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?t=45676)



post 1 and 6



http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?t=44995&page=3 (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?t=44995&page=3)



http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?t=44954 (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?t=44954)



Well the above is just a small sample of the numerous post in which I attempted to demonstrate my position with well supported scriptural support, and sound exegises, only to have the amazing Terral come and use his superior debating techniques of ignoring my points, calling them nonsense without ever addressing them, and asserting his position is right. Who can stand up to that kind of awesome skill? Is it any wonder sheepdog and I resort to asking (seemingly, but Terral knows otherwise) honest questions and tricking people into misrepresenting what we said (how we did that, I am not sure). After Terral demolished our well support arguments with evasion and assertion, all we have left is harassment.

As Terral once again demonstrates by asserting his position above, without even addressing the tons of well supported arguments I have raised against it. Genius, sheer genius. How does he do it? How can someone prove their points so will by ignoring his opponent and merely asserting his position? Terral does, why else would us preterist resort to such dirty tricks?

[Chief of Staff Lizard]

Can I jump into this fray and make a simple point?

I have read the postings in this thread with mounting concern. I asked myself, if I were an athiest, agnostic, or even struggling believer reading these posts, would I see the love of Christ shining through? Sadly I had to say no. I see individuals who call themselves christians doing nothing but slamming and insulting each other. I have to believe that Jesus is MUCH MORE concerned with the attitudes displayed here than who agrees on when the rapture is.

Why does it even matter when the rapture occurs? If you live each day like CHrist is coming back tomorrow, none of this is important.

I hope you guys see what I am getting at. You may not agree, but I can alsmost see Christ cringe with each verbal barb you are tossing back and forth.

Just a thought!!

:ahem:
Well said. However, this is a debate forum, and I for one come to debate. Now, I certainly prefer a civil exchange of ideas, and am quite capable of doing just that. However, at some point, after it is clear that civil exchange is not going to happen, the gloves do come off. For my scriptural reasoning behind this check out this post. (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showpost.php?p=914889&postcount=12)

[Chief of Staff Lizard]

Dear Faramir,

I think it is ridiculous of you to suggest that Sheepdog was critiquing pretribulationism from a "single universal resurrection" perspective. All you gotta do is read his use of 1Thessalonians 4 in his OP to see the question he was raising. Quit making up nonsense.
Is it ridiculous to suggest this even after sheep dog says:

see also Far's post above, as he is right on the money

Don't be silly.
:hehe: I'm not the one being silly.

[Tim C.]

I'm not the one being silly.Of course you are the one being silly.

I expect you and Sheepdog to do one of the following two things: Either (a) quote these alleged futurist premillennialists who teach that the "pretrib rapture" concerns living believers only, or (b) admit that ya'all don't even know what the rapture is to begin with!

-Tim

[Manasseh]

of course, you know my answer, but i'm curious to see how this fits into Futurist schemes, especially ones that (as far as i understand it) place the rapture at some point before the Res.

Now we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers and sisters, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve like the rest who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, so also we believe that God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep as Christians. For we tell you this by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will surely not go ahead of those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven with a shout of command, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be suddenly caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord. Therefore encourage one another with these words. 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, NET (link) (http://www.bible.org/netbible2/index.php?book=1th&chapter=4&verse=&submit=Lookup+Verse). Emph. me.


of course, you know my answer, but i'm curious to see how this fits into Futurist schemes, especially ones that (as far as i understand it) place the rapture at some point before the Res.

So what is being asked here is how the rapture of the living and dead saints relates to a general resurrection at the end of the 1000 years? I'm with Tim on this one. What would you call someone with such a belief? a Premillennial Postmillennialist? A very confused individual? In all the years I have been frequenting boards i've never heard of it. But it seems to me there is a lot of smoke blow going on in this thread and if I were you Tim i'd leave them to it. You'll only end up with a flat forehead :argh:

M

[Chief of Staff Lizard]

Of course you are the one being silly.

I expect you and Sheepdog to do one of the following two things: Either (a) quote these alleged futurist premillennialists who teach that the "pretrib rapture" concerns living believers only, or (b) admit that ya'all don't even know what the rapture is to begin with!

-Tim
:argh: I never said that there were any futurist premillers who teach a "living believers only" rapture. Never said, never even heard of the idea until you accused studyhound of saying that.

So now, you are not only accusing SH of saying that there are those who propose a "living only" rapture, which I am pretty darn sure he never did. Now you are accusing me of the same thing, which I know I never said.

And :duh: I think I have a pretty good idea of what the rapture is from a DF premil perspective. I was a DF premiller for many many years, and even taught it (much to my later chagrin) in Sunday School. :sigh:

[Tim C.]

I never said that there were any futurist premillers who teach a "living believers only" rapture. Never said, never even heard of the idea until you accused studyhound of saying that.You have allied yourself with Sheepdog, and so I simply will present the challenge to both of you.

QUOTE ME these alleged futurist premillennialists who teach any such thing.

Repeat: I want you to QUOTE ME these alleged futurist premillennialists who teach that the "pretrib rapture" concerns living believers only. That was Sheepdog's original criticism, and after being corrected he decided to make up a lie about dispensational laymen and non-TWEB dispensationalists rather than admitting his simpleton error.

Again, I want these QUOTES posted on this thread. No more delaying, please. Just post these alleged quotes. Either that, or I want an apology from Sheepdog for spreading lies about our doctrine.

And I think I have a pretty good idea of what the rapture is from a DF premil perspective. I was a DF premiller for many many yearsI hear this alot. Yet, mysteriously, these alleged ex-dispensationalists don't seem to even know what the rapture is! Amazing! Now lets face it, if a person doesn't know what the pretribulational rapture is, it is doubtful they are well studied on other particulars of dispensational theology.

-Tim

[Tim C.]

In all the years I have been frequenting boards i've never heard of it.I couldn't agree more. Thank you.

I am still awaiting the quotes of these alleged futurist premillennialists who taught it.

-Tim

[Xavier]

Tim, take a breath AND READ:

Show me where Sheepdog OR ANYONE is talking about the Rapture of Living Believers only... As far as I'm reading, no one is making that supposition. As far as I can tell, you've invented an argument wholesale and are asking others to defend it.

IOW, If you cannot, then YOU are the one lying here... And you should apologize to Sheepdog, Faramir, and Studyhound

Yours,
Xavier

[Secretary of the Navy Sparko]

of course, you know my answer, but i'm curious to see how this fits into Futurist schemes, especially ones that (as far as i understand it) place the rapture at some point before the Res.

Now we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers and sisters, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve like the rest who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, so also we believe that God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep as Christians. For we tell you this by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will surely not go ahead of those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven with a shout of command, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be suddenly caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord. Therefore encourage one another with these words. 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, NET (link) (http://www.bible.org/netbible2/index.php?book=1th&chapter=4&verse=&submit=Lookup+Verse). Emph. me.
OK since all the other futurists seem to be a little :lolo: I will take a stab at this.

First, I don't see the conflict Sheepdog. don't preterists also see this as a future occurance? Obviously the resurrection of the dead did not occur in AD 70. So whether you believe in a great tribulation or not, this event is still future.

So Futurists see this as the dead in christ will rise first, then any living Christians at the time will be caught up in the air, transformed in an instant, and meet Jesus in the air. From there we are with Jesus forever, wherever he is, we are. Most futurists I know believe this is the resurrection and the rapture occuring at the same time.

After this rapture, the great tribulation comes to those left on earth. After that, Jesus comes back accompanied by his saints and binds up Satan and destroys the beast.

If I rember my Left Behind (tm) correctly, those people who are left alive after the tribulation (the 144000 Jews and any new Christian converts) will people the earth for the 1000 years, have children, who will be saved and unsaved, etc. At the end of that 1000 years there will be a resurrection of those that are saved into glorified bodies and the rest of the dead will be judged and sent to hell.

[Xavier]

I think the point is that the supposed two resurrections are occuring at the same time (or rather in close succession).

[Chief of Staff Lizard]

You have allied yourself with Sheepdog, and so I simply will present the challenge to both of you.

QUOTE ME these alleged futurist premillennialists who teach any such thing.
You are asking me to quote something that I have already admitted I had never heard of before???? :bugeyes:

This has gone from silly to absurd.

Repeat: I want you to QUOTE ME these alleged futurist premillennialists who teach that the "pretrib rapture" concerns living believers only. That was Sheepdog's original criticism, and after being corrected he decided to make up a lie about dispensational laymen and non-TWEB dispensationalists rather than admitting his simpleton error.

Again, I want these QUOTES posted on this thread. No more delaying, please. Just post these alleged quotes. Either that, or I want an apology from Sheepdog for spreading lies about our doctrine.Repeating the same sillyness two more time does not make it less silly (it makes more silly)


I agree with Xavier. It is you who should apologize.

I hear this alot. Yet, mysteriously, these alleged ex-dispensationalists don't seem to even know what the rapture is! Amazing! Now lets face it, if a person doesn't know what the pretribulational rapture is, it is doubtful they are well studied on other particulars of dispensational theology.
Are you saying that I do not know anything about the pretrib rapture? What is this based on? The fact that you think I said something about a "living Christian" only rapture when in fact I had never even heard of such a thing until you brought it up.

Face it. You jumped to a conclusion on what SD meant by the term Res. based on your lack of understanding of how a preterist would use that word. Then you try to turn it around to make it look as if we don't understand your eschatology.

You have really gone off the deep end this time Tim. I used to think of you as one of the more capable futurist. I sure hope Terral hasn't rubbed off on you too much!!!!

[Chief of Staff Lizard]

OK since all the other futurists seem to be a little :lolo: I will take a stab at this.

First, I don't see the conflict Sheepdog. don't preterists also see this as a future occurance? Obviously the resurrection of the dead did not occur in AD 70. So whether you believe in a great tribulation or not, this event is still future.

So Futurists see this as the dead in christ will rise first, then any living Christians at the time will be caught up in the air, transformed in an instant, and meet Jesus in the air. From there we are with Jesus forever, wherever he is, we are. Most futurists I know believe this is the resurrection and the rapture occuring at the same time.

After this rapture, the great tribulation comes to those left on earth. After that, Jesus comes back accompanied by his saints and binds up Satan and destroys the beast.

If I rember my Left Behind ™ correctly, those people who are left alive after the tribulation (the 144000 Jews and any new Christian converts) will people the earth for the 1000 years, have children, who will be saved and unsaved, etc. At the end of that 1000 years there will be a resurrection of those that are saved into glorified bodies and the rest of the dead will be judged and sent to hell.
Thank you JS for actually answering the question.

But I think Tim C. may disagree with you, because this is exactly my understanding of pretrib rapture, and according to him, I don't know anything about that. :duh:

[Tim C.]

Tim, take a breath AND READ:

Show me where Sheepdog OR ANYONE is talking about the Rapture of Living Believers only... As far as I'm reading, no one is making that supposition.Uh.. read the original post, sir. Just WHAT is Sheepdog asking there? Well, obviously he is asking how it is that pretribulationalists think a rapture of the living will occur several years before the resurrection of dead believers, when in fact the text of 1Thessalonians 4 states that this rapture event will follow the resurrection of dead believers.

This is sooooo ignorant that it doesn't even deserve refutation. It doesn't even comprehend what the rapture is to begin with! What is Sheepdog going to do? Quote me some "partial-rapture" nonsense from Watchman Nee as though it represents pretribulationism? lol!

As far as I can tell, you've invented an argument wholesale and are asking others to defend it.Uh, it is Sheepdog who has invented this "rapture of the living only," and who passes off this invention as "the pretrib rapture," and then askes pretribulationists to "defend" this strawman nonsense.

IOW, If you cannot, then YOU are the one lying here... And you should apologize to Sheepdog, Faramir, and Studyhound.Sir, Sheepdog did not admit to misunderstanding the rapture, but rather made up the LIE that many dispensational laymen and non-TWEB dispensationalists think that the "pretrib rapture" is simply a catching away of living believers and does not concern the dead in Christ. This is pure falsehood, and I am awaiting the quotes of these alleged futurist premillennialists who teach it.

Where do you get off calling me a liar? Where in this thread have I told a lie? Quote it. I can certainly quote Sheepdog's lie. You people seem to think truth is not as important as defending a mistaken anti-dispensational brother. Very sad indeed.

-Tim

[Xavier]

You are really proficent at saying the same thing forty different ways... :ahem:

Where do you get off calling me a liar?

Because as far as I can tell, you've made up Sheepdog's position for him and then called him a liar... This is LYING!

Where in this thread have I told a lie? Quote it.

You can pick the any of the number of times you have claimed that Sheepdog is attacking a view that Rapture is Believers Only... :ahem: Heck, ANY post you've made in the thread contains the same basic lie. (At first it was a misunderstanding, but since you've been corrected, It is now a lie.)

I can certainly quote Sheepdog's lie.

Considering that SEVERAL people have been asking for this already it would be wise... :argh:

You people seem to think truth is not as important as defending a mistaken anti-dispensational brother. Very sad indeed.

I do care about the truth... That's why I'm a non-dispensational preterist... :ahem:

Yours,
Xavier

[Tim C.]

Dear Xavier,

You don't seem to even understand the question being asked in the original post. It is very obvious Sheepdog has blundered as to the nature of the pretribulational rapture. Very obvious. Just admit it. The only reason this thread has turned into the nastiness it is, is because the blundering fools refuse to admit their errors, but would rather entertain a fantasy that perhaps it is Tim C. who has blundered.

And, btw, I don't like it when liars try to turn around and tell me I am the one telling a lie. Especially when they can't prove it at all. So now, you also owe me an apology.

me: I can certainly quote Sheepdog's lie.

Xavier: Considering that SEVERAL people have been asking for this already it would be wise...First of all, no one has as yet asked for it.

Secondly, it is very obvious that I am referring to the following remark in post #21:

"My question was directed to dispies as they have presented their position to me. Did i ask Published Dispenastionalists? No. i asked average Joes like yourself and me. If you want to gripe, gripe at your fellow dispies for not even understanding their own position."

...and this remark in post #24:

"did i say only here on TWeb? it isn't that hard to believe to anyone else."

So, allegedly, this "rapture of the living only" is held by many dispensational laymen, and many non-TWEB dispensationalists. But where are the quotes of these alleged dispensationalists?

Sheepdog went so far as to say (in post #21):

"If you want to gripe, gripe at your fellow dispies for not even understanding their own position."

So, instead of apologizing for his simpleton error, he chose rather to make up a fictional idea that many dispensationalists believe in a "pretrib rapture" of the living only, and then he topped off his lie with a sneer at dispensationalists, telling me that my fellow dispensationalists don't understand their own position. Yet, he has failed to QUOTE ME a single one of these alleged dispensationalists.

-Tim

[Tim C.]

You are asking me to quote something that I have already admitted I had never heard of before????Thank you for admitting that Sheepdog's original criticism concerns a view that you "had never heard of before."

Repeating the same sillyness two more time does not make it less silly (it makes more silly)

I agree with Xavier. It is you who should apologize.I want these quotes, Faramir.

Quit excusing Sheepdog's error as though it were contrasting pretribulationism against a "single universal resurrection" doctrine. That CLEARLY was not the issue raised in the OP.

As far as I can tell, Sheepdog is just a backpeddling liar, and now he relies on you and Xavier to try and cloud the purpose of his original comments. Sad.

Are you saying that I do not know anything about the pretrib rapture?I've never met an anti-dispensationalist on the internet who actually had a clue as to what he/she was talking about. I think alot of these alleged "ex-dispensationalists" are liars and/or plants.

What is this based on? The fact that you think I said something about a "living Christian" only rapture when in fact I had never even heard of such a thing until you brought it up.Okay, true, you did not defend Sheepdog's blunder. Rather, you attempted to suggest to me that Sheepdog was actually intending to contrast pretribulationism against the "single universal resurrection" idea. But that is absurd. That CLEARLY is not what Sheepdog was addressing in the OP. Maybe you should just get out of the way, and let Sheepdog receive the spanking he deserves on this thread.

Face it. You jumped to a conclusion on what SD meant by the term Res. based on your lack of understanding of how a preterist would use that word. Then you try to turn it around to make it look as if we don't understand your eschatology.Face it, my criticism of Sheepdog's SEVERE lack of knowledge concerning dispensational teaching was based upon the CLEAR intention of his OP.

You have really gone off the deep end this time Tim. I used to think of you as one of the more capable futurist. I sure hope Terral hasn't rubbed off on you too much!!!!Its the anti-dispensationalists who go off the deep end, on a daily basis on this board and other internet discussion boards. They seem to think they can make up lies about our doctrine to try and make us look silly, but when called on it, they think they can lie their way out of it. Lies lies everywhere you look. This is the state of things in the fantasy land of anti-dispensationalism.

-Tim

[Xavier]

Thank you for proving my point Tim... I knew you were incapable...

Now, will you please apologize to Faramir, Studyhound, and Sheepdog since its obvious that your claim has NO STANDING?

Yours,
Xavier

[Sheepdog]

wow. i know 2-year olds who don't have temper tantrums like Tim C.

I want these quotes, Faramir.

well guess what, you ain't getting jack. I'm not going to waste my free time tracking down said quotes (many of which probably aren't even available on the Internet) just to satisfy your delusional witch hunt. right now you are more annoying than dog excrement that can't be scraped off the bottom of one's shoe, so i don't feel oblidged to do anything for you.

As far as I can tell, Sheepdog is just a backpeddling liar, and now he relies on you and Xavier to try and cloud the purpose of his original comments. Sad.

hey, if you don't want to believe me, that is your prerogative. however, calling me a liar without proof of said lie is slander, and at TWeb that is a bannable offense. we consider the one making the accusation to be the one who must take the burden of proof, but you have no means of actually demonstrating that i lied. so, keep on calling me a liar... i would be pleased to see you thrown into the matrix.

[Secretary of the Navy Sparko]

I dont recall Sheepdog mentioning dispensationalism at all in his OP. He just wanted to know how FUTURISTS (of which I am one) reconciled the thesalonians quotes which show the resurrection at the rapture and revelation 20.

I answered him above. I didn't get all bent out of shape about it like you did Tim. I just answered his question. I got a polite thank you from Faramir.

Why couldn't you just have done the same instead of turning the thread into a shouting match? It seems like you have a huge chip on your shoulder.

[Manasseh]

I answered him above. I didn't get all bent out of shape about it like you did Tim. I just answered his question. I got a polite thank you from Faramir.

Why couldn't you just have done the same instead of turning the thread into a shouting match? It seems like you have a huge chip on your shoulder.

Now now, one thing you can't deny is the way futurists get ganged up on and beaten up on this board, Tim's attitude is simply a reflection of that and Terral has already stated as much, go back and read his post and you will find why DF's don't hang around much. The OP said nothing about Rev 20 and from the question and the way the passage was highlighted I can see Tim's point of view. ESP in the words "ones that place the rapture at some point before the Res.

Lets see. If the rapture is the Res then how can the rapture be at some point before the Res. However if you were under the impression that the rapture only included living saints, then you might be compelled to ask a question like the one in the OP and highlight the passage in that way. What I found even more contadictory was that it was stated later that the OP was asking how the Rapture related to a general resurrection, at the end of the 1000 years. To my mind that is probably even worse. If you believe in a premill rapture then you don't believe in a future general Res. So if that was the question then the answer is that the Rapture has no relation to a future general Res. If you didn't know that then your really not up on eschatology, even a little bit.

M

[Secretary of the Navy Sparko]

Now now, one thing you can't deny is the way futurists get ganged up on and beaten up on this board, Tim's attitude is simply a reflection of that and Terral has already stated as much, go back and read his post and you will find why DF's don't hang around much. The OP said nothing about Rev 20 and from the question and the way the passage was highlighted I can see Tim's point of view. ESP in the words "ones that place the rapture at some point before the Res.
I am a futurist and I don't feel beaten up on. I get along fine with Sheepdog and the other partial preterists. The "before the res" was my clue that sheepdog was talking about rev 20.

Lets see. If the rapture is the Res then how can the rapture be at some point before the Res. However if you were under the impression that the rapture only included living saints, then you might be compelled to ask a question like the one in the OP and highlight the passage in that way. What I found even more contadictory was that it was stated later that the OP was asking how the Rapture related to a general resurrection, at the end of the 1000 years. To my mind that is probably even worse. If you believe in a premill rapture then you don't believe in a future general Res. So if that was the question then the answer is that the Rapture has no relation to a future general Res. If you didn't know that then your really not up on eschatology, even a little bit.
Well I might not be an expert on eschatology, but mostly cuz I am not worried abou it. My philosophy is that we all get to meet Jesus when we die, so wondering if he is coming back in 2 years or 2,000 more years is moot. If he comes back before I die, I will find out if there is a pretrib rapture or not. If I die first, then it doesn't matter.

My "understanding" of the timeline is this:

1. Resurrection of those dead in Christ - spirits from heaven reunited with glorified bodies, go to heaven (air) to wait.
2. Rapture of LIving Saints (right after #1) - changed to glorified bodies, go to heaven (air)
3. Tribulation
4. Wedding feast in heaven
5. Jesus and Saints come down and destroy beast, bind Satan and set up 1000 year millenium
6. Resurrection of those who were saved after Rapture but died during tribulation.
7. 1000 year reign. Peopled by the saved who lived through tribulation.
8. Satan loosed to corrupt world again.
9. Satan destroyed.
10. Rest of dead and those saved mortals alive at end of millenium judged. Those that were not written in book of life go to hell, rest are glorified and join us all in the new earth/heaven.

[Chief of Staff Lizard]

Now now, one thing you can't deny is the way futurists get ganged up on and beaten up on this board, Tim's attitude is simply a reflection of that and Terral has already stated as much, go back and read his post and you will find why DF's don't hang around much. The OP said nothing about Rev 20 and from the question and the way the passage was highlighted I can see Tim's point of view. ESP in the words "ones that place the rapture at some point before the Res.

Oh, I can see how Tim may have misunderstood Sheep Dog. But once it was ponited out to him, he became hostile. Accusing me and Xavier and Sheep Dog of lying!!!!!!!

And as far as futurist getting "ganged up on and beaten up" on this board? I can only speak for myself, but if someone comes here and engages in honest and rational debate, they will get treated with respect by me. Even if I disagree with them. (note my response to John Sparks. He answred the question in the spirit of the OP, which AFAICS is non-debate. I didn't debate his response, I thanked him. Also note my discussion with Bill the Cat in the Basketball Court.)

However, when futurist come here and accuse me of lying or call my post nonsense without even addressing the points that I took great effort to make, I do not intend to sit back and take it. (Remember this is a debate forum, this is about debate tactics not revenge and I do not take it personally).

If someones comes to a debate forum and starts swinging punches, they should expect to get punched back. Again, this is not (at least not for me) about anger or hostility, but about debate tactics. (There are a few posters who do make me angry, I don't engage in dialog with them.)

IOW. Do some futurist get "ganged up on and beaten up"? Darn straight they do. But it is not because they are futurist, it is because they are looking for a fight :fight: (as opposed to an honest debate).

Just my :2cents:

[Tim C.]

well guess what, you ain't getting jack.Duh, I already know that you are not going to supply the quotes. It is because you made up a lie about us, and you don't really know any dispensationalists who have EVER taught that the rapture concerns living believers only. See? So, since you are a liar, then I am already well aware that you are not going to provide me with these quotes. See? So that is why I am pressing you for these quotes of these alleged dispensationalists. Its because I know darn well that you can't present them, and you know darn well that I have caught you in a lie. Oh darn for you.

-Tim

[Sheepdog]

Duh, I already know that you are not going to supply the quotes. It is because you made up a lie about us, and you don't really know any dispensationalists who have EVER taught that the rapture concerns living believers only. See? So, since you are a liar, then I am already well aware that you are not going to provide me with these quotes. See? So that is why I am pressing you for these quotes of these alleged dispensationalists. Its because I know darn well that you can't present them, and you know darn well that I have caught you in a lie. Oh darn for you.

:lol: so this is how it works? i don't feel oblidged to bend over backwords for you, ergo i must be a liar? as a matter of fact, i know for a FACT i could supply the quotes, it would just take time and effort to dig them back up. but why should i? i'm not a oblidged to you. prove that i'm a liar, or officially state that your slander is unjustified. or have an admin come in and chastise you harshly; those are your options. why should i waste the time and effort just to deflate your pathetic ego? that presumes your opinion actually matters to me, beyond the slander. but it matters not, because as far as i am concerned, you are nothing more than a proverbial fly in the soup: a nuissance that is worth little more than a swat to the side.

but in fact, you can't prove that i'm a liar, any more than i can prove you a liar when you suggest that the entire early church held to pretrib rapture dispensationalism. so, spare us the polemical acrobatics. no one here is impressed.

[Tim C.]

I dont recall Sheepdog mentioning dispensationalism at all in his OP.Reread the thread. He told me that most of my dispensationalist brethren are not familiar with their own doctrine. Of course, he just made that up out of thin air, attempting to justify his initial post in which he condemned pretribulationism for teaching that the rapture concerns the living only. Of course, he has failed miserably to present me with these quotes of these alleged dispensationalists who teach it. He doesn't seem to even know what the rapture is. And when corrected, he won't admit that he doesn't even know what the rapture is. Instead, he chooses to make up lies about us. Very sad.

-Tim

[Tim C.]

i know for a FACT i could supply the quotes, it would just take time and effort to dig them back up.Supply these alleged quotes, sir.

-Tim

[Sheepdog]

Supply these alleged quotes, sir.

why should i bother?

[Trout]

Christian Gentlemen,

Lets turn down the heat in this thread. The last few responses don't fit the decorum for Eschatology 201, they are Locker Room material.

[Trout]

To the Locker Room Gentlemen!

[Amazing Rando]

Weeeeeeeeee! :dizzy:

[Trout]

Tim Sheedog Xavier and anyone else interested in fighting this out please do so in the Locker Room thread I started for you guys.

http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?t=48360

[Xavier]

Thanks Trout... :smile:

[Tim C.]

I want the quotes provided for readers right here on this thread. Supply these quotes, Sheepdog.

This thread has deceived some lurkers on the "Eschatology 201" board, and I expect Sheepdog to answer to the challenges here on this board. Provide the quotes, Sheepdog. Either that, or apologize for making up a lie about dispensationalists.

Thank you.

-Tim

Tim, you need to go to the other thread.

[jesterbr549]

I will address both of your points.

1) The Last Day = "A day with the Lord is a thousand years and a thousand years is a day". In the Jewish usage of the time, drawn from the Psalmist, the term Last Day is a reference to the thousand year reign. It was known as "The Ressurection", "The Kingdom", "The Restoration of All Things" and about a score of other names all refering to the thousand year reign. Thus the term neither confirms or denies a pre-trib Rapture or any other kind for they would all occur in the Last Day. The Rabbim stated that the creation week would be a type of the first week of mankinds existance with each day representing one thousand years. Both Y'shua and Peter agreed with, and made reference to this teaching which then validates it.

2)1 Thes 4 : If I am not mistaken you are saying that, since the resurrection precedes the rapture in this verse that, therefore, it can not be pretrib. Here, you are showing your ignorance of the rest of the Scriptural teaching on this subject where this same apostle states that the resurrection will occur in stages (using a military term), when he said, "each in his own order." Further, these stages are denied by many who do not understand the use of the term "First Resurrection." The use of the term 'first' in not refering to first in time, for that is clearly held by Y'shua himself who is the resurrection. The term 'first' as here used, is first in PRIORITY or PRIVELEDGE as the First Fruits of the Old Testament. Using the harvest typology then yields the Firstfruits of every harvest which is then followed by the actual harvesting of the crop itself afterwards and, after that, there is the Gleanings themselves - Pretrib firstfruits followed by the harvest of the crop during the tribulation after which there is a ressurection and finally the gleanings at the end of the millenium itself. There will be saved individuals in each group and thus all are partakes of the "first ressurection" and those who are not saved are part of the "second" resurrection which is also the second death.

But, let me ask you how the post trib rapture or any other view other than Pre-trib can clarify Y'shua's words to Peter and the disciples :

"And you yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will RETURN FROM THE WEDDING; that when he comes and knocks they may open unto him immediately."

In the Jewish custom of the day the Groom would go with some of his friends to the Brides Parents house where they would have a supper then and the wedding itself which, for virgins, would last seven days. Then the Groom and Bride and some of his friends would make the trib to his newly built house where the virgins - the friends of the bride and the children of the bridechamber - would be waiting form them and then they would all go into the house for a second marriage feast.

Thus, Y'shua's words above refer to TWO STAGES in the resurrection process. The actual marriage and then the procession to the new house.

Pretrib Wedding and Posttrib reception.

It is irrefutable...

[ross3421]

The last post is correct in understanding that those with the pre-trib notion cannot get around the resurrection without some altercation of the scriptures.

The truth of the matter is that there is no rapture of the living, post, pre, or mid. But of the dead, the resurrection.

The term "alive" in Thess. describes the state believers will be in their glorified bodies after the resurrection. It does not mean "living" in the flesh.

1co 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
1co 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 1co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
1co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

I have attached a detailed writing on the subject.

In Christ, Mark.

[Tim C.]

The truth of the matter is that there is no rapture of the living, post, pre, or mid. But of the dead, the resurrection.

The term "alive" in Thess. describes the state believers will be in their glorified bodies after the resurrection. It does not mean "living" in the flesh.

1Corinthians 15 and 1Thessalonians 4 very obviously describe a resurrection event which concerns both dead and living believers.

-Tim

[ross3421]

1Corinthians 15 and 1Thessalonians 4 very obviously describe a resurrection event which concerns both dead and living believers.

-Tim

Hi Tim,

Are you saying that there is a resurrection of the living ?

If you an an issue with the following statement, take it up with Paul.

1co 15:36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:

In Christ, Mark.

[Tim C.]

Hi Tim,

Are you saying that there is a resurrection of the living ?

Yes, the living are "changed" (1Corinthians 15:52).

If you an an issue with the following statement, take it up with Paul.

1co 15:36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:

That passage shows that resurrection is not simply a "spiritual" thing being experienced at the present time. So, the amillennial interpretation of Revelation 20:4b is shown to be in error.

But the passage does not demand death in order for resurrection to take place. That interpretation would make Paul contradict himself within the same chapter.

-Tim

[ross3421]

Yes, the living are "changed" (1Corinthians 15:52).



That passage shows that resurrection is not simply a "spiritual" thing being experienced at the present time. So, the amillennial interpretation of Revelation 20:4b is shown to be in error.

But the passage does not demand death in order for resurrection to take place. That interpretation would make Paul contradict himself within the same chapter.

-Tim

Where is the contradiction ?????

[Daniel927]

Old thread ---is anyone still out there??????

The "trib's", whether "pre, mid, or post", have it all wrong!!!!!!!!!!

The period of "tribulation" falls upon all believers! There is not; "A GREAT TRIBULATION PERIOD". This designation is nowhere to be found in scripture.

When it came to Christ, we call it his "PASSION". Yet, it was the "tribulation" of the world against him. Christ informed us that, as they (the world) had done to him, so too would they do to us, his servants!

Paul speaks of the "warfare" of the earthly (fallen) man and the eternal man. He speaks in Gal. 5:17 concerning where our "battle" lies and in II Cor. 4:8-11, the "sufferings" that we must all be partakers of.

As for Revelation, chapter 7, John seeing the redeemed, why is it that these are the "only" ones he sees.

IF, as the line of thought goes, these are some future 144,000 and the "others" are those that are brought to Christ by them, where are all the "earlier" believers that are supposed to be saved and redeemed prior to this "future" time?

Also in Rev. 14, it says that these 144', are the "first fruits to God and the Lamb". How is that possible, if "A" resurrection (rapture, what ever you want to call it), of the believers, the "body", the "church", of Christ has already taken place? How are these 144's the "first fruits"?

Doesn't your line of thought go along that "after" this catching away happens, then this 144' is revealed to proclaim the gospel to the world? Thereby ministering to the world throughout this "great tribulation", and an innumerable peoples are redeemed?

Where are all the believers from the "time" of the cross to the catching away? For that matter, where are all the "old" testament saints, that died prior to Christ? Why does John not record seeing them?

John sees all the way to the "end" yet doesn't make one mention of any redeemed prior to the inclusion of this 144'! Does that mean prior to these "future" tense Jews, no one gets saved/redeemed? That would be us you know! Not to mention the apostles as well as the "early" church saints and martyrs!!!!!!!

BUMMER!!!!!!

Bless

[eschaton]

Old thread ---is anyone still out there??????

The "trib's", whether "pre, mid, or post", have it all wrong!!!!!!!!!!

...

Also in Rev. 14, it says that these 144', are the "first fruits to God and the Lamb". How is that possible, if "A" resurrection (rapture, what ever you want to call it), of the believers, the "body", the "church", of Christ has already taken place? How are these 144's the "first fruits"?

Bless

It sounds like you're saying there is no resurrection. You say all views of the rapture are wrong, and then you equate the resurrection with the rapture. Therefore there must not be any resurrection. Is that what you mean? Or do you mean there is a resurrection, but there just isn't a tribulation? You did say that Paul was referring to sufferings we must all go through. Is there a resurrection after that?

[Daniel927]

Thanks for the response!

Just to let you know, I sometimes get on a "roll" and it never hurts for someone to say, "Hey, go easy"!

Yes, even though Chrsit is THE resurrection, there will be A resurrection, just as Paul outlines in both Thes. and Cor.

The "catching away" (a.k.a. "rapture"), transpires, according to Paul, at this time. "And we shall ever be with the Lord".

He speaks of the changes "the living" must go through, as well as "those that sleep" returning with Christ. These, that return, in their heavenly state, previous to this event, do not possess their eternal, glorified BODY.

We see that upon their return, they are reunited with their bodies (the "dead" in Christ shall rise (bodily) first), only, just as Christ arose in his body, they are now eternal and glorified. I John 3:2, "...it doth not yet appear WHAT we shall be, but we KNOW that, when he shall appear, WE SHALL BE "LIKE" HIM".

The "tribulation" is to all believers. It was to Christ, to the apostles, to the early church, it continues today and will continue until the "END"! Oh, by the way it was to all the godly since the fall of man. Cain brought persecution to Abel. Abel's "tribulation" was to the death!

Christ said (Lk. 13:34), "Jerusalem, which killest the prophets and stone them that are sent to thee...". Same events of "tribulation"!

In Rev. 7 it says, "...these are they which came out of great tribulation". These are those who have heard the gospel message, from the time of it's inception (Christ), and believed on his name.

The verse says they are innumerable, you can't get that in a hypothetical 7 or 3 1/2 year "great tribulation" perod! We, as man, have numered the whole earth's population and this group that John sees, are "ONLY" the redeemed of the earth, yet innumerable!

BUT, attempt to "number" those that have believed on Christ, since his "earthly ministry"!!! All of which have suffered "tribulation"! NOW you can talk about innumerable.

The tribulation (rejection by the world) is to all believers! The resurrection is to ALL peoples! Those that have done good and those that have done evil!

ONE LAST THING:

In John 5:28, 29; I have been informed that "most" scholars conclude this passage occurs at the "end" of ALL things. Yes, THAT "end".

Yet the passages says that, "...ALL who are in the graves shall HEAR...come forth...they that have done good...done evil".

1- We see both "good and evil" in the "graves".
2- That BOTH will HEAR the voice of the Lord
3- Both will come forth

Yet Paul tells us that the believer, is NOT in the grave (II Cor. 5:8). Thes. 4:14, "...them which sleep in Jesus, will God bring with him". So how do the "good" HEAR, in order to come forth? How do they come "forth", when they are already "forth"?

Even as Christ said in 5:25, "..the hour is coming AND NOW IS", and :27, "...and given him authority to EXECUTE judgement"!

Yes, there will be the event of ALL (Rev. 20:12, 13), coming before God, but I want to think that here in John, Christ is speaking of the events that will transpire around HIS completed ministry!

Else in Eph. 4:8, WHAT IS THE "CAPTIVITY", that he led "captive"? Luke 4:18, "...to preach deliverance to the captives".

The considerations for these possibilities, "fall" under the power of his triump over death.

Bless

[eschaton]

Thanks for the response!

Just to let you know, I sometimes get on a "roll" and it never hurts for someone to say, "Hey, go easy"!

Yes, even though Chrsit is THE resurrection, there will be A resurrection, just as Paul outlines in both Thes. and Cor.

The "catching away" (a.k.a. "rapture"), transpires, according to Paul, at this time. "And we shall ever be with the Lord".

He speaks of the changes "the living" must go through, as well as "those that sleep" returning with Christ. These, that return, in their heavenly state, previous to this event, do not possess their eternal, glorified BODY.

We see that upon their return, they are reunited with their bodies (the "dead" in Christ shall rise (bodily) first), only, just as Christ arose in his body, they are now eternal and glorified. I John 3:2, "...it doth not yet appear WHAT we shall be, but we KNOW that, when he shall appear, WE SHALL BE "LIKE" HIM".

The "tribulation" is to all believers. It was to Christ, to the apostles, to the early church, it continues today and will continue until the "END"! Oh, by the way it was to all the godly since the fall of man. Cain brought persecution to Abel. Abel's "tribulation" was to the death!

Christ said (Lk. 13:34), "Jerusalem, which killest the prophets and stone them that are sent to thee...". Same events of "tribulation"!

In Rev. 7 it says, "...these are they which came out of great tribulation". These are those who have heard the gospel message, from the time of it's inception (Christ), and believed on his name.

The verse says they are innumerable, you can't get that in a hypothetical 7 or 3 1/2 year "great tribulation" perod! We, as man, have numered the whole earth's population and this group that John sees, are "ONLY" the redeemed of the earth, yet innumerable!

BUT, attempt to "number" those that have believed on Christ, since his "earthly ministry"!!! All of which have suffered "tribulation"! NOW you can talk about innumerable.

The tribulation (rejection by the world) is to all believers! The resurrection is to ALL peoples! Those that have done good and those that have done evil!

ONE LAST THING:

In John 5:28, 29; I have been informed that "most" scholars conclude this passage occurs at the "end" of ALL things. Yes, THAT "end".

Yet the passages says that, "...ALL who are in the graves shall HEAR...come forth...they that have done good...done evil".

1- We see both "good and evil" in the "graves".
2- That BOTH will HEAR the voice of the Lord
3- Both will come forth

Yet Paul tells us that the believer, is NOT in the grave (II Cor. 5:8). Thes. 4:14, "...them which sleep in Jesus, will God bring with him". So how do the "good" HEAR, in order to come forth? How do they come "forth", when they are already "forth"?

Even as Christ said in 5:25, "..the hour is coming AND NOW IS", and :27, "...and given him authority to EXECUTE judgement"!

Yes, there will be the event of ALL (Rev. 20:12, 13), coming before God, but I want to think that here in John, Christ is speaking of the events that will transpire around HIS completed ministry!

Else in Eph. 4:8, WHAT IS THE "CAPTIVITY", that he led "captive"? Luke 4:18, "...to preach deliverance to the captives".

The considerations for these possibilities, "fall" under the power of his triump over death.

Bless

Thanks for your reply. I'm not sure I follow you, but I think you're saying there is a spiritual resurrection when we are saved, and a general "physical" resurrection in the last judgment. Correct?

[Daniel927]

E,

Corect! There is a spiritual resurrection WHEN we are saved AND a "general" resurrection at the "end" of all things. That makes your understanding - two for two!

BUT, BUT (you just know there had to be something else!), I also want to present to you that there WAS ANOTHER RESURRECTION!!!!!!!

At the time of Christ, at the time of his resurrection! "When he ascended on high, he led "captivity" captive...".

It is very easy to read Matt. 27:52 wrong. We want to think it says that "only" some of the redeemed came out of the graves.

First, the passage say, "...THE GRAVES were opened", it doesn't say, some, most, practically all, rather, ...THE GRAVES!

This coincides precisely with John 5:28, 29; "...ALL who are in THE GRAVES , shall come forth.

Do you think that ALL the godly, under the covenant, pre-Christ were buried in Jerusalem? Or even Israel, for that matter?

Matt. 27:52, 53 list several things that "these" performed. 1- Came out of the graves, 2- AND went into the holy city, 3- AND appeared to many!

Does that mean that NO OTHERS came out of their graves? They simply did not go into the city! OR, they went into the city, just as "these" others, but did not appear unto many!

What if "they" only showed themselves to one ore two persons? That "they" only showed themselves to a "few".

Does this mean that the "others" didn't resurrect from the dead, and come out of their graves also?

I'm just attempting to NOT ready into Matthew that those who are spoken of, are THE ONLY, which the verse does not say!!!!!!!!!

I want to believe that with the resurrection of Christ, all those OT saints, who were waiting for him to overcome death, hell and THE GRAVE, would receive the reward of their faithfulness!!!!!!!!!

Gotta go,

Bless,

D

[eschaton]

E,

Corect! There is a spiritual resurrection WHEN we are saved AND a "general" resurrection at the "end" of all things. That makes your understanding - two for two!

BUT, BUT (you just know there had to be something else!), I also want to present to you that there WAS ANOTHER RESURRECTION!!!!!!!

At the time of Christ, at the time of his resurrection! "When he ascended on high, he led "captivity" captive...".

It is very easy to read Matt. 27:52 wrong. We want to think it says that "only" some of the redeemed came out of the graves.

First, the passage say, "...THE GRAVES were opened", it doesn't say, some, most, practically all, rather, ...THE GRAVES!

This coincides precisely with John 5:28, 29; "...ALL who are in THE GRAVES , shall come forth.

Do you think that ALL the godly, under the covenant, pre-Christ were buried in Jerusalem? Or even Israel, for that matter?

Matt. 27:52, 53 list several things that "these" performed. 1- Came out of the graves, 2- AND went into the holy city, 3- AND appeared to many!

Does that mean that NO OTHERS came out of their graves? They simply did not go into the city! OR, they went into the city, just as "these" others, but did not appear unto many!

What if "they" only showed themselves to one ore two persons? That "they" only showed themselves to a "few".

Does this mean that the "others" didn't resurrect from the dead, and come out of their graves also?

I'm just attempting to NOT ready into Matthew that those who are spoken of, are THE ONLY, which the verse does not say!!!!!!!!!

I want to believe that with the resurrection of Christ, all those OT saints, who were waiting for him to overcome death, hell and THE GRAVE, would receive the reward of their faithfulness!!!!!!!!!

Gotta go,

Bless,

D

So where did those OT saints go after they were resurrected? They obviously didn't hang around on this earth did they? Did they ascend with or before Jesus, or did the skip ahead to the new heaven and earth? Did they get a chance card that said advance to GO (New Earth)? I don't know, but I prefer to think of them as part of the general resurrection in the end of the world, since I believe we've been in the end of the world since the crucifixion. But the end isn't finished yet.

[Daniel927]

Esc,

I was certain I responded to your last entry, BUT it's not here is it?

So we'll try again!

The saints went into the heavenly kingdom that Christ ushered in with his resurrection. The scripture doesn't give us a "time" when that took place, only "...after his resurrection". It does say, "...when he ascended on high, he led "captivity" captive"! Could very well have been then!

Rev. continually identifies a segment of the redeemed as JEWS, specifically the 144,000!

Now Paul repeatedly instructs us that there is neither Jew or Gentile, free or bond, male or female, but we are all one in Christ. He also tells us that all the "things" that he was, hebrew of hebrews, etc., HE COUNTED THEM ALL LOSS THAT HE MIGHT GAIN CHRIST!

So, if this all holds true "POST" Christ, how can there be anymore distinction? There can't! It's that simple!

Then these distinct Jews (144,000), HAVE TO BE PRE-CHRIST BELIEVERS!!!!! THEY ARE!

This is why in Rev. 14:4 they are called, "...the FIRSTFRUITS unto God and to the Lamb". FIRSTFRUITS, NOT second, third or anything else. The FIRST redeemed, of all the redeemed!

These would be those in "Abraham's bosom", preserved until the day that Christ would overcome death, hell and the grave.

This is the same group that is seen in Rev. 6:9, 10, 11, "...dost not JUDGE and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth". They still have to wait for the completed work of the Lord Jesus and are waiting for that event in order to receive their reward.

They are separated from God, being in the "bosom", but are given the reward of white robes (linen), which is the righteousness of the saints.

The reason why they are found "under the altar" is because, that was their (believers) means of relationship/fellowship with God. Through the sacrifices upon the "altar"! Now, how about that?

Of course this is the same group in Rev. 7 that are "sealed" (same 144,000)!

Two questions: 1 - Why were they "sealed?" and 2- With what were they "sealed?"

Answer 1- BECAUSE THEY HAD NO "SEAL" PRIOR TO THIS TIME!
Answer 2-THEY WERE "SEALED" WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT, THE SPIRIT OF LIFE!

The Holy Ghost was not appointed unto believers (living) until Pentecost! So, all those that died prior to Christ, were never "sealed" with the Holy Spirit because it was not yet given.

But even as it gives us life, God would impart it unto them, though dead and in Abraham's bosom, so that they would also partake of eternal life! "The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me "free" from the law of sin and DEATH"!

But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead, shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit THAT DWELLETH IN YOU!

NO different from us, they would be required to have the indwelling Spirit, in order to partake of life everlasting!

Bless,

D

[eschaton]

Esc,

I was certain I responded to your last entry, BUT it's not here is it?

So we'll try again!

The saints went into the heavenly kingdom that Christ ushered in with his resurrection. The scripture doesn't give us a "time" when that took place, only "