Idealism

[Sheepdog]

Anyone know about this eschatological view? a friend of mine was talking about it earlier, and he perked my interest.

[Xavier]

Isn't that the idea that eschatological prophecy deals with the continuing struggle between good and evil as opposed to any certain events???

[studyhound]

Anyone know about this eschatological view? a friend of mine was talking about it earlier, and he perked my interest.
Ok IIRC idealist holds to no single fulfillment of prophecies (esp Revelation) but a transcendent principles and recurrent themes.

An example is the Beast of Revelation, is not any particular person but oppressive goverments opposing the gosple. (Rome, Midevil RCC, Nazi Germany ect, ect) .

:sh:

[Solly]

It is linked with dutch amillennialism; as stated above, it sees a book like Revelation as thematic of the whole church age, rather than literal in a preterist/historic/futurist sense.

*sppr

[Sheepdog]

yeah. thanks guys, so far. the above seems to line up with how i understand it so far.

still, i wouldn't mind getting someone who is personally an idealist in here. something about the horse's mouth, eh? :brow:

[Solly]

What am i, chopped liver? *sbrd

Non-præteryst dutch amillennial at your service; though i'd probably tell you to read the books since it isn't high up my list of things to know at the moment:

See Geerhardus Vos; Herman Ridderbos; William Hendrickson on Revelation, for instance

[eschaton]

I consider myself an idealist (as well as a futurist), and also find that view in church tradition. Augustine referred to it as "that coming of the Saviour which continually occurs in His Church," City of God: Book XX.

Here are some of my own thoughts:

The end of natural life reminds me of the pattern we see in nature. A new soul comes into the world. As we grow through childhood we gain strength and are filled with hope for the things to come. Young adults take charge of their life and have children of their own. But then our physical bodies wear out. Darkness and suffering prevail, and eventually comes death. This is the way of the natural world.

But even in our spiritual lives there is a pattern of sorts. Jesus described this in parables such as the ones in Matthew thirteen. We are filled with enthusiasm as new creatures in Him, but soon the cares of this world come along and tempt us away from our first love, like the church of Ephesus. Our faith is tried as we face the realities of life. The skepticism of the world seeks to destroy what we have gained. As we try to grow in our faith, we face the doctrines of Satan and strive to sort out what is true and good. If we are true to our faith, we have overcome the world. If we are deceived, we are called to repentance. God chastises us so we will look for what is true and good. With repentance comes reconciliation. We need not fear the approaching darkness and judgment that lie ahead.

[eschaton]

I think Solly did a good job of explaining it, but here is some additional information at bible.org:

The second method of interpretation is known as the idealist method. In this understanding, the contents of the book are not seen to relate to any historical events at all, but only to symbolize the ongoing struggle between good and evil during the church age until Christ returns. Johnson says that, as a system of interpretation it is more recent than the three other [preterist, historicist and futuristic] schools and somewhat more difficult to distinguish from earlier allegorizing approaches of the Alexandrians (Clement and Origen). In general the idealist view is marked by a refusal to identify any of the images with specific future events, whether in the history of the church or with regard to the end of all things.5

The primary benefit of this view is that it renders the apocalypse quite understandable at a basic level. It is simply a book that was written to encourage suffering saints in the knowledge that God will someday conquer all evil and make things right. One of the most significant criticisms brought against this view is the fact that Revelation is of the apocalyptic genre and as Ladd says, apocalyptic documents generally describe actual events in history.6 This also appears to contradict the clear language of the text wherein the writer says that Jesus will show him what must take place next (4:1). If there is no real chronology according to real historical events, then this statement seems to be superfluous and the section on the churches (2-3) seems be a-historical as well.

http://www.bible.org/page.asp?page_id=2164

[Sheepdog]

What am i, chopped liver? *sbrd

yes. :haha:

kidding. my apologies, i didn't know you held this view.

Non-præteryst dutch amillennial at your service; though i'd probably tell you to read the books since it isn't high up my list of things to know at the moment:

See Geerhardus Vos; Herman Ridderbos; William Hendrickson on Revelation, for instance

hmm... i'll have to track these down. thanks!

[Sheepdog]

:hi: eschaton. i recall reading the thing from bible.org. i must have forgotten about it. thank you for elaborating on you position.


my friend was talking about a particular view of Revelation. it is Idealistic, though it might be peculiar to a certain scholar (i forgot who he said presented this view, but i recall it was one of J.P. Holding's big wigs). What he proposed is that Revelation isn't to be taken linear like a chronological history; instead, it is cyclical. He likened it to a spiral staircase, where as you climb it you keep seeing the same room over again, except every time you are a bit higher so your view is different.

i don't know how that fit's with your view, or Solly's (Solly, if you want to, chime in here). however, it seems like it does clear up at least one issue: Rev 12 seems to describe not something in the future, but in the past: the birth of Jesus (maybe?) and the tension between that and the Devil's attempt to get rid of him (through Herod?), and then the war in heaven between Satan and his minions versus the Angels. what i've never understood as a Futurist (and even now that i'm a Preterist, it still sticks out as a sore thumb), why this excursion if Rev. is predominately describing future history?

[eschaton]

:hi: eschaton. i recall reading the thing from bible.org. i must have forgotten about it. thank you for elaborating on you position.


my friend was talking about a particular view of Revelation. it is Idealistic, though it might be peculiar to a certain scholar (i forgot who he said presented this view, but i recall it was one of J.P. Holding's big wigs). What he proposed is that Revelation isn't to be taken linear like a chronological history; instead, it is cyclical. He likened it to a spiral staircase, where as you climb it you keep seeing the same room over again, except every time you are a bit higher so your view is different.

i don't know how that fit's with your view, or Solly's (Solly, if you want to, chime in here). however, it seems like it does clear up at least one issue: Rev 12 seems to describe not something in the future, but in the past: the birth of Jesus (maybe?) and the tension between that and the Devil's attempt to get rid of him (through Herod?), and then the war in heaven between Satan and his minions versus the Angels. what i've never understood as a Futurist (and even now that i'm a Preterist, it still sticks out as a sore thumb), why this excursion if Rev. is predominately describing future history?

Hi Sheepdog,

That view of Revelation is very similar to the way I see it. I see it as a seven-fold repetition of a seven point pattern.

1.The intro and churches
2.The heavenly throne and seals
3.The trumpets
4.The heavenly vision and the Satanic beasts
5.The six announcements
6.The seven vials or bowls
7.The seven explanations and closing

I wrote about chapter 12 in this thread.

http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?t=44840

I see four types of prophecy fulfillment:

1. Literally fulfilled within the scriptures.
2. Spiritually fulfilled withing the Gospels
3. Idealistically fulfilled within the lives of believers (continual coming within the church)
4. Eschatologically fulfilled within the eschaton (prophecy)

I am in the process of solidifying my ideas about these things and tying them to Origen's and Augustine's writings about scripture interpretation. Stay tuned.

Thanks for your input.

Alan

[Sheepdog]

Hi Sheepdog,

That view of Revelation is very similar to the way I see it. I see it as a seven-fold repetition of a seven point pattern.

1.The intro and churches
2.The heavenly throne and seals
3.The trumpets
4.The heavenly vision and the Satanic beasts
5.The six announcements
6.The seven vials or bowls
7.The seven explanations and closing

hey cool. i'm going to "borrow" that outline, OK?

eventually i want to go through Rev. again, but this time instead of presuming futurism i'd like to see how each of the general views of eschatology mesh with it. i'll definitely keep idealism in mind as well the other views.

I wrote about chapter 12 in this thread.

http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?t=44840


hmm, i'm suprized no one has addressed that.

I see four types of prophecy fulfillment:

1. Literally fulfilled within the scriptures.
2. Spiritually fulfilled withing the Gospels
3. Idealistically fulfilled within the lives of believers (continual coming within the church)
4. Eschatologically fulfilled within the eschaton (prophecy)

I am in the process of solidifying my ideas about these things and tying them to Origen's and Augustine's writings about scripture interpretation. Stay tuned.

Thanks for your input.

Alan

cool :thumb:

[studyhound]

Hey SD you could also try Four views of revelation (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0840721285/qid=1108411657/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl14/103-8876574-3915053?v=glance&s=books&n=507846), By Steve Gregg.

It compares Futurism, Preterism, HIstoricist and Idealism (or spiritualism as he calls it)


I wrote about chapter 12 in this thread.

http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?t=44840
Heh for the most part I agree

[eschaton]

hey cool. i'm going to "borrow" that outline, OK?

eventually i want to go through Rev. again, but this time instead of presuming futurism i'd like to see how each of the general views of eschatology mesh with it. i'll definitely keep idealism in mind as well the other views.




hmm, i'm suprized no one has addressed that.



cool :thumb:


Please do borrow my outline. And I'm happy studyhound is in general agreement on chapter 12.

[Sheepdog]

Hey SD you could also try Four views of revelation (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0840721285/qid=1108411657/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl14/103-8876574-3915053?v=glance&s=books&n=507846), By Steve Gregg.

oh heck i'ver heard about that one. another book for the pile? :hehe:

[Xavier]

oh heck i'ver heard about that one. another book for the pile? :hehe:
Highly recommended by people on all sides of the "aisle"... :smile: