Oneness problem

[themuzicman]

I was actually debating a oneness follower (apostolic, I believe), and this argument seemed very persuasive:

In John 5:31, Jesus says "If I alone testify about Myself, My testimony is not true."

And in verse 37, He says, ""And the Father who sent Me, He has testified of Me."

Now, if you're a Oneness follower, you have a problem, because Jesus just called Himself as His own witness, which He just said was "not true". If there ever was a case of bearing false witness, this is it.

Thoughts?

Michael

[Carl Smuda]

What is a "oneness follower"?

[themuzicman]

Oneness theology rejects the concept of the trinity, saying that Jesus is the entirity of God, and that the various names are just how He represents Himself in that setting.

Michael

[endy]

I was actually debating a oneness follower (apostolic, I believe), and this argument seemed very persuasive:

In John 5:31, Jesus says "If I alone testify about Myself, My testimony is not true."

And in verse 37, He says, ""And the Father who sent Me, He has testified of Me."

Now, if you're a Oneness follower, you have a problem, because Jesus just called Himself as His own witness, which He just said was "not true". If there ever was a case of bearing false witness, this is it.

Thoughts? Michael Well the muzicman

Look at this verse

Joh 14:8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
Joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?

Is Jesus the father? The answer is yes.

When you are refering to John5:31 He was refering to his flesh the one they were seeing at that time, when refering to the father it was the spirit the unseen one, untangible.
The Father (the Spirit) has sent the flesh of the father.
Isa 59:15 Yea, truth faileth; and he that departeth from evil maketh himself a prey: and the LORD saw it, and it displeased him that there was no judgment.
Isa 59:16 And he saw that there was no man, and wondered that there was no intercessor: therefore his arm brought salvation unto him; and his righteousness, it sustained him.
Isa 59:17 For he put on righteousness as a breastplate, and a helmet of salvation upon his head; and he put on the garments of vengeance for clothing, and was clad with zeal as a cloak.
Isa 59:18 According to their deeds, accordingly he will repay, fury to his adversaries, recompense to his enemies; to the islands he will repay recompense.
Isa 59:19 So shall they fear the name of the LORD from the west, and his glory from the rising of the sun. When the enemy shall come in like a flood, the Spirit of the LORD shall lift up a standard against him.
Who brought salvation to this world? The answer is Jesus our Lord.

[dizzle]

egad

[Ormly]

I was actually debating a oneness follower (apostolic, I believe), and this argument seemed very persuasive:

In John 5:31, Jesus says "If I alone testify about Myself, My testimony is not true."

And in verse 37, He says, ""And the Father who sent Me, He has testified of Me."

Now, if you're a Oneness follower, you have a problem, because Jesus just called Himself as His own witness, which He just said was "not true". If there ever was a case of bearing false witness, this is it.

Thoughts?

Michael
Don't into it, Michael

[themuzicman]

Well the muzicman

Look at this verse

Joh 14:8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
Joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?

Is Jesus the father? The answer is yes.

When you are refering to John5:31 He was refering to his flesh the one they were seeing at that time, when refering to the father it was the spirit the unseen one, untangible.
The Father (the Spirit) has sent the flesh of the father.
Isa 59:15 Yea, truth faileth; and he that departeth from evil maketh himself a prey: and the LORD saw it, and it displeased him that there was no judgment.
Isa 59:16 And he saw that there was no man, and wondered that there was no intercessor: therefore his arm brought salvation unto him; and his righteousness, it sustained him.
Isa 59:17 For he put on righteousness as a breastplate, and a helmet of salvation upon his head; and he put on the garments of vengeance for clothing, and was clad with zeal as a cloak.
Isa 59:18 According to their deeds, accordingly he will repay, fury to his adversaries, recompense to his enemies; to the islands he will repay recompense.
Isa 59:19 So shall they fear the name of the LORD from the west, and his glory from the rising of the sun. When the enemy shall come in like a flood, the Spirit of the LORD shall lift up a standard against him.
Who brought salvation to this world? The answer is Jesus our Lord.

Ah, but this is consistent with trinitarian doctrine, whereas the verse in John is NOT consisent with oneness doctrine. have you no answer for the problem in John 5?

Michael

[Teallaura]

Actually, it is consistent. Jesus isn't referring to His own trustworthiness - He's referring to the law which requires two witnesses. His testimony alone would not be sufficient in a court of the time because two witnesses were required - but He then provides the second witness - God the Father. Jesus is, in a sense, actually affirming the Trinity - the two witnesses required by law are God the Father and God the Son, the First and Second Persons of the Trinity.



(http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Deu/Deu017.html#6)Deu 17:6 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Deu/Deu017.html#6) At the mouth of two witnesses, or three witnesses, shall he that is worthy of death be put to death; [but] at the mouth of one witness he shall not be put to death.

(http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Deu/Deu017.html#6)Deu 19:15 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Deu/Deu019.html#15) One witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity, or for any sin, in any sin that he sinneth: at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established.
Blue Letter Bible. "Dictionary and Word Search for 'two witnesses ' " . Blue Letter Bible. 1996-2002. 11 Jan 2005. (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Deu/Deu017.html#6)<http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?word=two+witnesses&page=1> (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?word=two+witnesses&page=1&exact=0&perlit=&bgcolor=FFFFFF&textcolor=000000&linkcolor=39398C&vlinkcolor=0000FF&show_strongs=no&hr=http://www.blueletterbible.org/search.html&icon=http://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/search_tools.gif)
(http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Deu/Deu017.html#6)

[themuzicman]

I agree. However, it is a problem with oneness theology.

Michael

[shunyadragon]

Actually, it is consistent. Jesus isn't referring to His own trustworthiness - He's referring to the law which requires two witnesses. His testimony alone would not be sufficient in a court of the time because two witnesses were required - but He then provides the second witness - God the Father. Jesus is, in a sense, actually affirming the Trinity - the two witnesses required by law are God the Father and God the Son, the First and Second Persons of the Trinity.
There is no indication of this in the quotes repeated in every gospel. Jesus Christ is describing in His own words the nature of his station and authority in relation to God. There is no reference whatsoever to the requirement of two or three witnesses in these quotes.



(http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Deu/Deu017.html#6)Deu 17:6 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Deu/Deu017.html#6) At the mouth of two witnesses, or three witnesses, shall he that is worthy of death be put to death; [but] at the mouth of one witness he shall not be put to death.

(http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Deu/Deu017.html#6)Deu 19:15 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Deu/Deu019.html#15) One witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity, or for any sin, in any sin that he sinneth: at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established.
Blue Letter Bible. "Dictionary and Word Search for 'two witnesses ' " . Blue Letter Bible. 1996-2002. 11 Jan 2005. (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Deu/Deu017.html#6)<http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?word=two+witnesses&page=1> (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?word=two+witnesses&page=1&exact=0&perlit=&bgcolor=FFFFFF&textcolor=000000&linkcolor=39398C&vlinkcolor=0000FF&show_strongs=no&hr=http://www.blueletterbible.org/search.html&icon=http://www.blueletterbible.org/gifs/search_tools.gif)
(http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Deu/Deu017.html#6)
Totally irrelavent. This the OT law concerning judgement in cases of crime in courts.

[endy]

Ah, but this is consistent with trinitarian doctrine, whereas the verse in John is NOT consisent with oneness doctrine. have you no answer for the problem in John 5?

Michael As to trinitarian doctrine it seems that it was consistent in the sense they believe two bodies. THe Son is different apart from the Father. Not believeing One God which is Spirit manifested in the flesh. God is Spirit & the Son is the flesh. Spirit is unseen, untangible whereas the Flesh is seen & tangible. So as to the question you have arised

Joh 5:31 If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.
Joh 5:32 There is another that beareth witness of me; and I know that the witness which he witnesseth of me is true.
Joh 5:33 Ye sent unto John, and he bare witness unto the truth.
Joh 5:34 But I receive not testimony from man: but these things I say, that ye might be saved.

"Myself" mean The Flesh=the Son=The Lamb to the man they were seening
"That beareth witness of me" mean to God the father which is the Spirit.
So when he said He receives no testimony from man He pointing to the Spirit of God who is working & moving everything.

Joh 5:36 But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.

Who is the Father the father is The Spirit. THe Spirit is the witness of the of the Flesh which the Son.

What about now? Is it consistent? Do we see Two bodies? NO NO. One body only.Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily.


Rev 22:21 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.

[shunyadragon]

As to trinitarian doctrine it seems that it was consistent in the sense they believe two bodies. THe Son is different apart from the Father. Not believeing One God which is Spirit manifested in the flesh. God is Spirit & the Son is the flesh. Spirit is unseen, untangible whereas the Flesh is seen & tangible. So as to the question you have arised

Joh 5:31 If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.
Joh 5:32 There is another that beareth witness of me; and I know that the witness which he witnesseth of me is true.
Joh 5:33 Ye sent unto John, and he bare witness unto the truth.
Joh 5:34 But I receive not testimony from man: but these things I say, that ye might be saved.

"Myself" mean The Flesh=the Son=The Lamb to the man they were seening
"That beareth witness of me" mean to God the father which is the Spirit.
So when he said He receives no testimony from man He pointing to the Spirit of God who is working & moving everything.

Joh 5:36 But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.

Who is the Father the father is The Spirit. THe Spirit is the witness of the of the Flesh which the Son.

What about now? Is it consistent? Do we see Two bodies? NO NO. One body only.Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily.


Rev 22:21 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.
Your description is in someways confusing. You start talking about two bodies, and then say not, no One body only. Your statement that the son is different and appart from the father is okay. God is the spirit, okay. Jesus Christ was of course the Son of God the Messiah like Moses in the flesh, but not God incarnate, and distinctly He had no knowledge, power or authority, other than which he recieved through God as the Word and authority of God. Yes, God is doing everything and in total control.

[endy]

Your description is in someways confusing. You start talking about two bodies, and then say not, no One body only. Your statement that the son is different and appart from the father is okay. God is the spirit, okay. Jesus Christ was of course the Son of God the Messiah like Moses in the flesh, but not God incarnate, and distinctly He had no knowledge, power or authority, other than which he recieved through God as the Word and authority of God. Yes, God is doing everything and in total control. It was not confusing. The spirit of yours & your flesh are not two bodies but one body. What I am trying to clear is this

the Spirit of Jesus =is the Father

Again the Flesh is the one dwells the Spirit. They are not two but one. Let us see this verse

Gen 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

The image of man is God. Man has Spirit, soul & body. The Spirit of Jesus is the Father & the body of Jesus is the Son.


1Co 2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

How does God revealed them? Through his Spirit which Dwelled in Christ.
Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily.

I do have a question for shuny What is the Spirit of Christ. How many Spirit does it exist? 2 or 1 or 3. Meaning The Father is Spirit 1, Spirit of Christ 2, Holy ghost 3. Do we see 3 Spirits. The answer is no.
Eph4:4 there is only one Spirit not 3. & that is the Spirit of Christ

Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

[endy]

Shunya "Jesus Christ was of course the Son of God the Messiah like Moses in the flesh,"

Heb 11:24 By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter;
Heb 11:25 Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season;
Heb 11:26 Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompense of the reward.

But Moses has been disgraced for Christ. How can the Christ & Moses be the same? Since moses honored Jesus here before becoming the Son.

[shunyadragon]

It was not confusing. The spirit of yours & your flesh are not two bodies but one body. What I am trying to clear is this

the Spirit of Jesus =is the Father

No your not. Clear as mud.



Again the Flesh is the one dwells the Spirit. They are not two but one. Let us see this verse

Gen 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

The image of man is God. Man has Spirit, soul & body. The Spirit of Jesus is the Father & the body of Jesus is the Son.




1Co 2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

How does God revealed them? Through his Spirit which Dwelled in Christ.
Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily.

I do have a question for shuny What is the Spirit of Christ. How many Spirit does it exist? 2 or 1 or 3. Meaning The Father is Spirit 1, Spirit of Christ 2, Holy ghost 3. Do we see 3 Spirits. The answer is no.
Eph4:4 there is only one Spirit not 3. & that is the Spirit of Christ

Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Still does not meet Christs own words in John chapter 5. According to Christ's own words. Christ was speaking for Christ, not some out of body experience.
the Spirit of Jesus = is the Father is true as the Word, authority and power that spoke through Jesus, but Jesus Christ is not God.

[endy]

[/size][/size]
Still does not meet Christs own words in John chapter 5. According to Christ's own words. Christ was speaking for Christ, not some out of body experience. is true as the Word, authority and power that spoke through Jesus, but Jesus Christ is not God.
Joh 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.

Act 2:32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.

Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Can you see these verses

the 1st it was refering Jesus himself will raise from dying by his power. No one needs to raise him up

2nd verse God has raised him up. How?

the answer is in verse 3 Rom 8:11
The Spirit of Jesus has raised the body.

So we can conclude that The Flesh of the Son is God`s Flesh. Yes. No other thing.
Question to shuny how Jesus be raised up by himself as well as by God? Did Jesus raised up two times? By himself & by the Spirit of God?

[Sparko]

I am a trinitarian, Endy, and I agree with Shuny on this one. While you may be correct in what you are saying (I can't tell!), you are presenting it in a very confusing manner. You are as clear as mud.

[themuzicman]

As to trinitarian doctrine it seems that it was consistent in the sense they believe two bodies. THe Son is different apart from the Father. Not believeing One God which is Spirit manifested in the flesh. God is Spirit & the Son is the flesh. Spirit is unseen, untangible whereas the Flesh is seen & tangible. So as to the question you have arised

Joh 5:31 If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.
Joh 5:32 There is another that beareth witness of me; and I know that the witness which he witnesseth of me is true.
Joh 5:33 Ye sent unto John, and he bare witness unto the truth.
Joh 5:34 But I receive not testimony from man: but these things I say, that ye might be saved.

"Myself" mean The Flesh=the Son=The Lamb to the man they were seening
"That beareth witness of me" mean to God the father which is the Spirit.
So when he said He receives no testimony from man He pointing to the Spirit of God who is working & moving everything.

Joh 5:36 But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.

Who is the Father the father is The Spirit. THe Spirit is the witness of the of the Flesh which the Son.

What about now? Is it consistent? Do we see Two bodies? NO NO. One body only.Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily.


Rev 22:21 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.

This thread was created to deal with the "oneness" theology that there is only one person in God, but he is acting in different functions, OT as the Father, as Christ in His time here, and HolY spirit to the chuch, rather than the trinitarian view of three persons in one God.

Honestly ,you're committing the heresy of separating Christ into two beings, when He is only one, who is wholly human and wholly God. That's another thread.

Michael

[Teallaura]

I agree. However, it is a problem with oneness theology.

Michael
Sorry, misread your first post ...
Gotta run away now!:eek:

[endy]

"I am a trinitarian, Endy, and I agree with Shuny on this one. While you may be correct in what you are saying (I can't tell!), you are presenting it in a very confusing manner. You are as clear as mud."

To JohnSparks

Why don`t you deal with scripture rather than saying I am confused. Deal with the words with which I have said. May be what I see in the answers that I gave clearly indicates the oneness of God as in the OT is the same in NT. Because there is one God which is Spirit was manifested in flesh that is Christ. Isn`t this true?

1Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

To muzicman

"Honestly ,you're committing the heresy of separating Christ into two beings, when He is only one, who is wholly human and wholly God."

Where in the bible does Christ is wholly human & wholly God written? I don`t understand what is wholly human. Is it to his flesh God manifesting in the time of his ministry? If yes we are in the same line, if not deal with what you believe make clear in this thread.

What about wholly God? Is it the Spirit of God which is in Christ? What heresy does it appear in this saying? Nothing. You are confirming the two natures of God. But one Body. By saying wholly human & wholly God. Which is what I am trying to point out.

[endy]

Where are you shynya?
You are always stressing Jesus is not God. What about this verse?

Joh 8:23 And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.
Joh 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
Joh 8:25 Then said they unto him, Who art thou? And Jesus saith unto them, Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning.
Joh 8:26 I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him.
Joh 8:27 They understood not that he spake to them of the Father.

What does it mean says I am he?

[themuzicman]

To muzicman

"Honestly ,you're committing the heresy of separating Christ into two beings, when He is only one, who is wholly human and wholly God."

Where in the bible does Christ is wholly human & wholly God written? I don`t understand what is wholly human. Is it to his flesh God manifesting in the time of his ministry? If yes we are in the same line, if not deal with what you believe make clear in this thread.

Colossians says that in Him (Christ) dwelt the fullness of the Godhead bodily (in body). The only way this can be true is for Christ to be fully God (fullness of the godhead), and fully human (bodily).


What about wholly God? Is it the Spirit of God which is in Christ? What heresy does it appear in this saying? Nothing. You are confirming the two natures of God. But one Body. By saying wholly human & wholly God. Which is what I am trying to point out.

Not just one body. One BEING. One Person. Literally that the eternally begotten Son took to himself a human nature, becoming fully man and fully God in one Being. This is different than us receiving the Spirit of God, because we do not take on the ontological nature of God.

Michael

[shunyadragon]

Where are you shynya?
You are always stressing Jesus is not God. What about this verse?

Joh 8:23 And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.
Joh 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
Joh 8:25 Then said they unto him, Who art thou? And Jesus saith unto them, Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning.
Joh 8:26 I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him.
Joh 8:27 They understood not that he spake to them of the Father.

What does it mean says I am he?I think this quote supports my position very well . Christ is not God. God sent Christ and he spoke to them of the God the Father that sent him. No problem.

He said believe that I am he(The messiah Christ). When taken in light of John 5, John 5 confirms the relationship of Jesus Christ as the messiah, and He was sent by God. He has no power or authority of Himself, and does the will of God on earth.

[endy]

Colossians says that in Him (Christ) dwelt the fullness of the Godhead bodily (in body). The only way this can be true is for Christ to be fully God (fullness of the godhead), and fully human (bodily).
Not just one body. One BEING. One Person. Literally that the eternally begotten Son took to himself a human nature, becoming fully man and fully God in one Being. This is different than us receiving the Spirit of God, because we do not take on the ontological nature of God.

Michael
As to my understanding in the fullness of the Godhead bodily (in body) you are referring to his Flesh the same thing we are saying, truly dividing the Word of God. Again fullness of the godhead you are referring to the Spirit of Jesus. Why do you want to argue with me? We saying the same thing.


In the above you mentioned Colosians2:9 saying “Christ dwelt the fullness of the Godhead bodily” Christ the flesh & Godhead the Spirit which is One body not two. You are contradicting yourself by saying “Literally that the eternally begotten Son took to himself a human nature (His flesh), becoming fully man(Flesh) and fully God (His Spirit) in one Being” What is Being?

This is clearly showing one body. Why you are making two bodies.


“This is different than us receiving the Spirit of God” Jesus is the giver of Holy Spirit not the receiver. Holy Spirit is the power of Jesus.

Act 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

[endy]

I think this quote supports my position very well . Christ is not God. God sent Christ and he spoke to them of the God the Father that sent him. No problem.

He said believe that I am he(The messiah Christ). When taken in light of John 5, John 5 confirms the relationship of Jesus Christ as the messiah, and He was sent by God. He has no power or authority of Himself, and does the will of God on earth. Here when He said I am he it was not as your interpretation (The messiah Christ)Flesh. But when He said I am he, He was referring to the father who remissions sins to their fathers the God of Abraham of Isaac & of Jacob which is the Spirit since Joh 8:27 clearly points out saying

Joh 8:27 They understood not that he spake to them of the Father.

John5 of course confirms the relationship of Jesus Christ as the messiah. God the Spirit sent a flesh which the Son.


The following verse confirms the above what I have written

Joh 14:8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.

Joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?

Joh 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

Joh 14:11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

The father is in the Son & vice versa. Meaning The Father which is the Spirit was in the Flesh. Can you ask right now Jesus by saying show as the father shynya? The answer is clear as pure water. Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip?

[shunyadragon]

Here when He said I am he it was not as your interpretation (The messiah Christ)Flesh. But when He said I am he, He was referring to the father who remissions sins to their fathers the God of Abraham of Isaac & of Jacob which is the Spirit since Joh 8:27 clearly points out saying

Joh 8:27 They understood not that he spake to them of the Father.

John5 of course confirms the relationship of Jesus Christ as the messiah. God the Spirit sent a flesh which the Son.


The following verse confirms the above what I have written

Joh 14:8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.

Joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?

Joh 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

Joh 14:11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

The father is in the Son & vice versa. Meaning The Father which is the Spirit was in the Flesh. Can you ask right now Jesus by saying show as the father shynya? The answer is clear as pure water. Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip?

'. . . the words that I speak unto you I speak not myself: but the father that dweleth in me, he doeth the works.' is great. This basically says God is the Father and Christ is the vehicle for God's Word that dwells within him. He is still not God, and He has no power or authority of Himself.

I like it when Christ said 'I am in the Father and the Father in me', this keeps things seperate, and it describes his relationship well as in John, but still no cigar Jesus Christ is not God. He asks that they believe in Him for the Word's sake, as in John 5, God's Word not His.

[endy]

'. . . the words that I speak unto you I speak not myself: but the father that dweleth in me, he doeth the works.' is great. This basically says God is the Father and Christ is the vehicle for God's Word that dwells within him. He is still not God, and He has no power or authority of Himself.

I like it when Christ said 'I am in the Father and the Father in me', this keeps things seperate, and it describes his relationship well as in John, but still no cigar Jesus Christ is not God. He asks that they believe in Him for the Word's sake, as in John 5, God's Word not His. BTW Do you believe God is Spirit. Well well well What does it mean when Jesus says the words that I speak unto you I speak not myself: but the father that dweleth in me, he doeth the works. He means the Spirit of God(Jesus) which is Spirit is in the Son. How can a Spirit dwells in flesh unless they are one & the same.


Can you see Spirit? No. Spirit is untangible omnipresent untouchable. So untangible Spirit was in the flesh which is the Son that is tangible.. You do have spirit, soul & body. In your body you do have spirit which knows what you are working & act your daily living.

As to Jesus his father was Holy Ghost not Joseph Mat 1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost. The Holy Ghost is His Father. Not human being.

Jesus is from heaven you & me are from earth. 1Co 15:47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.



You are saying Jesus has no power or authority of Himself.

Let us see this verse 1Ti 6:14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:

1Ti 6:15 Which in his times he shall show, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;

1Ti 6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honor and power everlasting. Amen.

1Ti 6:17 Charge them that are rich in this world, that they be not highminded; nor trust in uncertain riches, but in the living God, who giveth us richly all things to enjoy;



Does the above verse indicate that Jesus does not have power?



'I am in the Father and the Father in me', this keeps things separate. Not separate but one & the same. How can Jesus be in his Father? Unless the Spirit of God was in the Son that is the Flesh & vise versa?

If the saying of yours is true 'I am in the Father and the Father in me 'you are contradicting your remarks Father in me only works. Not I am in the father.

[InChristAlways]

'. . . the words that I speak unto you I speak not myself: but the father that dweleth in me, he doeth the works.' is great. This basically says God is the Father and Christ is the vehicle for God's Word that dwells within him. He is still not God, and He has no power or authority of Himself.

I like it when Christ said 'I am in the Father and the Father in me', this keeps things seperate, and it describes his relationship well as in John, but still no cigar Jesus Christ is not God. He asks that they believe in Him for the Word's sake, as in John 5, God's Word not His.Jesus was the Word or Glory of God in the flesh.
After His resurrection(He did not see "decay"), He became the "Glory" of the Father again as the "Word" which was from the beginning, Word symbolising "message" which the Lord had from the beginning and could be the same "Word" hovering over the deep in Genesis.
It appears that Jesus became the new name of God as there is no other name under heaven by which one can be saved but by the Name of Jesus the Christ. Christ was sent by God to us to show us we now have access to "heaven" and the Father in the name of Jesus remembering no one could see the "face of God" and live, but Jesus in essence became "His Face" in the flesh as prophecied and we also are raised up like He was, and according to revelation, we will be able to see "His face" when we die. I look at Christ as more of the "Glory" of the Lord, much like the cloud that lead the hebrews in the wilderness. The name of His Glory is Jesus.God bless.

Deut 18:15 " The LORD your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your midst, from your brethren. Him you shall hear, 16 "according to all you desired of the LORD your God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, 'Let me not hear again the voice of the LORD my God, nor let me see this great fire anymore, lest I die.' 17 "And the LORD said to me: 'What they have spoken is good. 18 'I will raise up for them a Prophet like you from among their brethren, and will put My WORDs in His mouth, and He shall speak to them all that I command Him. 19 'And it shall be [that] whoever will not hear My words, which He speaks in My name, I will require [it] of him.

exodus 33:19 Then He said, "I will make all My goodness pass before you, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before you. I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion." 20 But He said, "You cannot see My face; for no man shall see Me, and live." 21 And the LORD said, "Here is a place by Me, and you shall stand on the rock.

I relate the Lamb(Jesus) as the Glory, Light of God and "Right Hand" and wonder how others view this and the "FACE" of Him.

reve 22:3 And there shall be no more curse, but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it, and His servants shall serve Him. 4 They shall see His face, and His name [shall be] on their foreheads. 5 There shall be no night there: They need no lamp nor light of the sun, for the Lord God gives them light. And they shall reign forever and ever. 6 Then he said to me, "These words [are] faithful and true." And the Lord God of the holy prophets sent His angel to show His servants the things which must shortly take place. 7 "Behold, I am coming quickly! Blessed he who keeps the words of the prophecy of this book."

reve 6:[i]16 and said to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 "For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?"

reve 20:11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them.

ephesians 3:8 To me, who am less than the least of all the saints, this grace was given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, 9 and to make all see what the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the ages has been hidden in God who created all things by/through Jesus Christ; [i]10 to the intent that now the manifold wisdom of God might be made known by the church to the principalities and powers in the heavenly [places,] 11 according to the eternal purpose which He accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord, 12 in whom we have boldness and access with confidence through faith in Him.

1 Corinthians 10:1 Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, 2 all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, 3 all ate the same spiritual food, 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ. 5 But with most of them God was not well pleased, for [their bodies] were scattered in the wilderness.

[endy]

Jesus was the Word or Glory of God in the flesh.
After His resurrection(He did not see "decay"), He became the "Glory" of the Father again as the "Word" which was from the beginning, Word symbolising "message" which the Lord had from the beginning and could be the same "Word" hovering over the deep in Genesis.
It appears that Jesus became the new name of God as there is no other name under heaven by which one can be saved but by the Name of Jesus the Christ. Christ was sent by God to us to show us we now have access to "heaven" and the Father in the name of Jesus remembering no one could see the "face of God" and live, but Jesus in essence became "His Face" in the flesh as prophecied and we also are raised up like He was, and according to revelation, we will be able to see "His face" when we die. I look at Christ as more of the "Glory" of the Lord, much like the cloud that lead the hebrews in the wilderness. The name of His Glory is Jesus.God bless.

Deut 18:15 " The LORD your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your midst, from your brethren. Him you shall hear, 16 "according to all you desired of the LORD your God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, 'Let me not hear again the voice of the LORD my God, nor let me see this great fire anymore, lest I die.' 17 "And the LORD said to me: 'What they have spoken is good. 18 'I will raise up for them a Prophet like you from among their brethren, and will put My WORDs in His mouth, and He shall speak to them all that I command Him. 19 'And it shall be [that] whoever will not hear My words, which He speaks in My name, I will require [it] of him.

exodus 33:19 Then He said, "I will make all My goodness pass before you, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before you. I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion." 20 But He said, "You cannot see My face; for no man shall see Me, and live." 21 And the LORD said, "Here is a place by Me, and you shall stand on the rock.

I relate the Lamb(Jesus) as the Glory, Light of God and "Right Hand" and wonder how others view this and the "FACE" of Him.

reve 22:3 And there shall be no more curse, but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it, and His servants shall serve Him. 4 They shall see His face, and His name [shall be] on their foreheads. 5 There shall be no night there: They need no lamp nor light of the sun, for the Lord God gives them light. And they shall reign forever and ever. 6 Then he said to me, "These words [are] faithful and true." And the Lord God of the holy prophets sent His angel to show His servants the things which must shortly take place. 7 "Behold, I am coming quickly! Blessed he who keeps the words of the prophecy of this book."

reve 6:[i]16 and said to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 "For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?"

reve 20:11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them.

ephesians 3:8 To me, who am less than the least of all the saints, this grace was given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, 9 and to make all see what the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the ages has been hidden in God who created all things by/through Jesus Christ; [i]10 to the intent that now the manifold wisdom of God might be made known by the church to the principalities and powers in the heavenly [places,] 11 according to the eternal purpose which He accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord, 12 in whom we have boldness and access with confidence through faith in Him.

1 Corinthians 10:1 Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, 2 all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, 3 all ate the same spiritual food, 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ. 5 But with most of them God was not well pleased, for [their bodies] were scattered in the wilderness.
Whew I so blessed InChristalways

To add more to Shunya

not leaving the 1st thread Joh5 here there is verse

Joh 5:46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.
Joh 5:47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

Where does in the bible Moses wrote about Jesus it was in the OT as above InChristAlways wrote.

Heb 11:25 Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season;
Heb 11:26 Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompense of the reward.

Moses as you observe in the above he esteeming the reproach of Christ when does this happened shynya in the OT. So the point is do please you yourself do the same thing for Christ? If not? Try to study scripture more deeply.

Once more

Isa 40:3 The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.

Who is this Lord shunya? Isn`t this YHWH? The one that came as Jesus our Lord in the NT.

[shunyadragon]

Jesus was the Word or Glory of God in the flesh.
After His resurrection(He did not see "decay"), He became the "Glory" of the Father again as the "Word" which was from the beginning, Word symbolising "message" which the Lord had from the beginning and could be the same "Word" hovering over the deep in Genesis.
It appears that Jesus became the new name of God as there is no other name under heaven by which one can be saved but by the Name of Jesus the Christ. Christ was sent by God to us to show us we now have access to "heaven" and the Father in the name of Jesus remembering no one could see the "face of God" and live, but Jesus in essence became "His Face" in the flesh as prophecied and we also are raised up like He was, and according to revelation, we will be able to see "His face" when we die. I look at Christ as more of the "Glory" of the Lord, much like the cloud that lead the hebrews in the wilderness. The name of His Glory is Jesus.God bless.

Deut 18:15 " The LORD your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your midst, from your brethren. Him you shall hear, 16 "according to all you desired of the LORD your God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, 'Let me not hear again the voice of the LORD my God, nor let me see this great fire anymore, lest I die.' 17 "And the LORD said to me: 'What they have spoken is good. 18 'I will raise up for them a Prophet like you from among their brethren, and will put My WORDs in His mouth, and He shall speak to them all that I command Him. 19 'And it shall be [that] whoever will not hear My words, which He speaks in My name, I will require [it] of him.

exodus 33:19 Then He said, "I will make all My goodness pass before you, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before you. I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion." 20 But He said, "You cannot see My face; for no man shall see Me, and live." 21 And the LORD said, "Here is a place by Me, and you shall stand on the rock.

I relate the Lamb(Jesus) as the Glory, Light of God and "Right Hand" and wonder how others view this and the "FACE" of Him.

reve 22:3 And there shall be no more curse, but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it, and His servants shall serve Him. 4 They shall see His face, and His name [shall be] on their foreheads. 5 There shall be no night there: They need no lamp nor light of the sun, for the Lord God gives them light. And they shall reign forever and ever. 6 Then he said to me, "These words [are] faithful and true." And the Lord God of the holy prophets sent His angel to show His servants the things which must shortly take place. 7 "Behold, I am coming quickly! Blessed he who keeps the words of the prophecy of this book."

reve 6:[i]16 and said to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 "For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?"

reve 20:11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them.

ephesians 3:8 To me, who am less than the least of all the saints, this grace was given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, 9 and to make all see what the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the ages has been hidden in God who created all things by/through Jesus Christ; [i]10 to the intent that now the manifold wisdom of God might be made known by the church to the principalities and powers in the heavenly [places,] 11 according to the eternal purpose which He accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord, 12 in whom we have boldness and access with confidence through faith in Him.

1 Corinthians 10:1 Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, 2 all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, 3 all ate the same spiritual food, 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ. 5 But with most of them God was not well pleased, for [their bodies] were scattered in the wilderness.
This all very consistent with Jesus Christ being the messiah and God 'putting the Word of God in his mouth' just as he did with Moses. Nothing here can be consistently interpreted as stating Christ is God. When the Bible is taken as a whole, the theology of the Trinity depicting three 'equal persons' as God falls like a house of cards. It fails the test of John 5 and similar quotes in all the Gospels. Jesus Christ is the messiah speaking and acting on God's behalf. He has no power or authority of Himself and thus is not God. The following is response to Pythagoras in a similar thread.

"This only fails with the assumption the Jesus Christ is God. The consistent theology of the OT is that God is one and inseperable and unknowable except for what is revealed. God is manifest in different forms and one form is the Word of God, The messiah is the annointed one, the spokesperson for God's Word. The messiah is not God, and has no power or authority of Himself, except what God wills Him to do. This is consistent with the OT and John 5, and I believe consistent with other references to what Christ said in the NT. What is said by Paul and others must be interpreted in light of this."

[endy]

"This only fails with the assumption the Jesus Christ is God. The consistent theology of the OT is that God is one and inseperable and unknowable except for what is revealed. God is manifest in different forms and one form is the Word of God, The messiah is the annointed one, the spokesperson for God's Word. The messiah is not God, and has no power or authority of Himself, except what God wills Him to do. This is consistent with the OT and John 5, and I believe consistent with other references to what Christ said in the NT. What is said by Paul and others must be interpreted in light of this."
Again I am giving this verse that Jesus has power

1Ti 6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honor and power everlasting. Amen.

Whose power is this shunya?

[shunyadragon]

Again I am giving this verse that Jesus has power

1Ti 6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honor and power everlasting. Amen.

Whose power is this shunya?



God's and most definitely not Christ's, because as he said I have no authority of His own. He simply does the will of the Father.

[endy]

God's and most definitely not Christ's, because as he said I have no authority of His own. He simply does the will of the Father. Wrong this verse doesn`t say God`s directly names Jesus Christ.

Above verse of 1Ti 6:15 says

1Ti 6:14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:

This implies that you are denying God is not Jesus Christ. Because it clearly states to Jesus.

Another verse

Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

Who redeemed from our sins Jesus Christ.

2Pe 1:16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.

Don`t deny please by saying Jesus has no power.

Act 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

Purchased us by God`s blood.

The blood of Jesus has the power to redeem us. He has power.

Rev 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honor and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

This power is of the Lamb which is Jesus Christ. What about now do you want more verses that say Jesus has power?

[shunyadragon]

Wrong this verse doesn`t say God`s directly names Jesus Christ.

Above verse of 1Ti 6:15 says

1Ti 6:14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:

This implies that you are denying God is not Jesus Christ. Because it clearly states to Jesus.

Another verse

Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

Who redeemed from our sins Jesus Christ.

2Pe 1:16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.

Don`t deny please by saying Jesus has no power.

Act 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

Purchased us by God`s blood.

The blood of Jesus has the power to redeem us. He has power.

Rev 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honor and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

This power is of the Lamb which is Jesus Christ. What about now do you want more verses that say Jesus has power?
The verses you cite describe the power of God, which comes through the word spoken by Christ, which John 5 says it is God's power and authority not that of Christ. You may cite verses all day about the power of God, by John 5 says it is the power and authority of God and not Christ.

[Richbee]

The verses you cite describe the power of God, which comes through the word spoken by Christ, which John 5 says it is God's power and authority not that of Christ. You may cite verses all day about the power of God, by John 5 says it is the power and authority of God and not Christ.


Jesus Christ is ONE with the Father. (John 10)

Were you raised as a Jehovah Witness or Oneness Pentecostal?

[shunyadragon]

Jesus Christ is ONE with the Father. (John 10)

Were you raised as a Jehovah Witness or Oneness Pentecostal?
Neither! I was raised Catholic/Protestant inwhich all believed in the Trinity doctrine. It is unfortunate that most people believe as they were raised, but a few are brave enough to to march to the tune of a different drummer.

John 3:6 - That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

John 5:19 - Verily, verily, I say unto you. The Son can do nothing of Himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, there also the Son doeth likewise.

John 5:30-31 - I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge; and my judgement is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which has sent me. If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.

[endy]

Neither! I was raised Catholic/Protestant inwhich all believed in the Trinity doctrine. It is unfortunate that most people believe as they were raised, but a few are brave enough to to march to the tune of a different drummer.

John 3:6 - That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

John 5:19 - Verily, verily, I say unto you. The Son can do nothing of Himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, there also the Son doeth likewise.

John 5:30-31 - I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge; and my judgement is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which has sent me. If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true. How can you quote from the bible sayind that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Without believing the spirit of Jesus is God`s spirit or Holy Ghost. the bible says
Gal 4:6 And because you are children, God sent out the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, "Abba, Father!"

Phi 1:19 For I know that this will turn out to my salvation, through your supplication and the supply of the Spirit of Yeshua the Messiah,

What is the above implying it was the Spirit of God which is Jesus Christ.
I told you The Spirit of God dwellth in the Son .& that is Jesus Christ.

The Spirit of God, which is Jesus spirit, is the bear witness of the flesh. Not the Son one body & the father body.

1Pe 1:11 searching for who or what kind of time the Spirit of Messiah, which was in them, pointed to, when he predicted the sufferings of Messiah, and the glories that would follow them.

The spirit of Messiah leads them & pointing them so that they will follw glory.

[shunyadragon]

How can you quote from the bible sayind that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Without believing the spirit of Jesus is God`s spirit or Holy Ghost. the bible says
Gal 4:6 And because you are children, God sent out the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, "Abba, Father!"

Phi 1:19 For I know that this will turn out to my salvation, through your supplication and the supply of the Spirit of Yeshua the Messiah,

What is the above implying it was the Spirit of God which is Jesus Christ.
I told you The Spirit of God dwellth in the Son .& that is Jesus Christ.

The Spirit of God, which is Jesus spirit, is the bear witness of the flesh. Not the Son one body & the father body.

1Pe 1:11 searching for who or what kind of time the Spirit of Messiah, which was in them, pointed to, when he predicted the sufferings of Messiah, and the glories that would follow them.

I did say the Spirit that gave the gift of the Word to Christ is God, and not some mythical figure the Holy Ghost. The Spirit of God is the Spirit manifest by God and only God through Christ as the Word of God. No one else is responsible. According to Christs own words In John 5, God is the only power on earth and heaven, and it is God the Father that is the sole and only power and authority on earth and in heaven. Christ said he has no power or authority of Himself and he spoke the Word of God and not His own word.

[quote] The spirit of Messiah leads them & pointing them so that they will follow glory.The Spirit of God leads them and points them so that they will follow Glory of God. Christ has no authority or power of his own and speaks the Word of God, and not his own.

God is God indivisible and unknowable. He manifests himself in diferent forms but remains God indivisible and unknowable.

[misterguss]

How does the Oneness group interpret John 17? Is Jesus praying to himself?

If Jesus is, then what does vs. 11 mean? "And I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, keep them in your name, which you have given me, that they may be one, even as we are one."

If this verse isn't saying that Jesus and the Father are separate...then what is it saying?

Jesus is praying to the Father that his disciples may remain one, just as He and the Father are. But if you claim that "even as we are one" is literal...when why would Jesus was his disciples to literally be one when that is impossible.

Just wonderin' how you interpret this...thanks...

[shunyadragon]

Wrong this verse doesn`t say God`s directly names Jesus Christ.

Above verse of 1Ti 6:15 says

1Ti 6:14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:

This implies that you are denying God is not Jesus Christ. Because it clearly states to Jesus.

Another verse

Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

Who redeemed from our sins Jesus Christ.

2Pe 1:16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.

Don`t deny please by saying Jesus has no power.


I do not need to deny Jesus Christ has no power of his own and his power comes from God through him, Chapter 5 of John describes this relationship in Christ's own words very well. These other quotes need to understood in light of Christ's words.

[misterguss]

How does the Oneness group interpret John 17? Is Jesus praying to himself?

If Jesus is, then what does vs. 11 mean? "And I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, keep them in your name, which you have given me, that they may be one, even as we are one."

If this verse isn't saying that Jesus and the Father are separate...then what is it saying?

Jesus is praying to the Father that his disciples may remain one, just as He and the Father are. But if you claim that "even as we are one" is literal...then why would Jesus want his disciples to literally be one when that is impossible.

Just wonderin' how you interpret this...thanks...I'm not here to rip the "oneness" group into pieces...I just want to try to better understand your point of view. Can anyone from the oneness group please explain how and why you interpret these verses? Thanks...

[endy]

I do not need to deny Jesus Christ has no power of his own and his power comes from God through him, Chapter 5 of John describes this relationship in Christ's own words very well. These other quotes need to understood in light of Christ's words. Sometimes you say Jesus Christ has no power. & now what you saying "I do not need to deny Jesus Christ has no power of his own and his power comes from God through him"

Two words conflicting each other. What I am saying is Jesus Christ has power. & that power is Jesus Christ spirit. which is not different from him. Which has manifested in his own flesh.

Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

The spirit of Jesus raised his body(flesh) which is the Son. Which are you denying that Jesus has no power.

[endy]

How does the Oneness group interpret John 17? Is Jesus praying to himself?

If Jesus is, then what does vs. 11 mean? "And I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, keep them in your name, which you have given me, that they may be one, even as we are one."

If this verse isn't saying that Jesus and the Father are separate...then what is it saying?

Jesus is praying to the Father that his disciples may remain one, just as He and the Father are. But if you claim that "even as we are one" is literal...when why would Jesus was his disciples to literally be one when that is impossible.

Just wonderin' how you interpret this...thanks... Wrong understanding Did God The Son praying To God the Father? NOOO.NOOO

First of all there is no God the Son written in the bible. I raised it because trinitarians quote it. If Jesus is praying to God that is ridiculous & impossiple. & He cannot be GOd.

SO Jesus is implying John 17 that we have to understand that the flesh which is the Son is teaching us how to pray & how to look for the spirit to work & move everything we want to have.

When saying I am not from this world mean is that He is Spirit which has the power (the Holy Ghost) no other thing. What name does the Son Has? He was Jesus. The name of the Father which Jesus.

We are one in the sense

Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Who is in me Christ by what? by his blood & Spirit.

Look at this verse

1Jo 5:6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.

The word of God is spirit which it is possible to be ONE with God as the above verse says.

[misterguss]

Wrong understanding Did God The Son praying To God the Father? NOOO.NOOO John 17:1When Jesus had spoken these words, he lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, "Father, the hour has come; glorify your Son that the Son may glorify you, 2since you have given him authority over all flesh, to give eternal life to all whom you have given him. 3And this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent. 4I glorified you on earth, having accomplished the work that you gave me to do. 5And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.

Then who was Jesus praying to?

The word of God is spirit which it is possible to be ONE with God as the above verse says.Since you are taking "one" as literal in vs. 11: I am wondering how Christians can literally be one with each other...they are not spirit.

[shunyadragon]

Sometimes you say Jesus Christ has no power. & now what you saying "I do not need to deny Jesus Christ has no power of his own and his power comes from God through him"

Two words conflicting each other. What I am saying is Jesus Christ has power. & that power is Jesus Christ spirit. which is not different from him. Which has manifested in his own flesh.

Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

The spirit of Jesus raised his body(flesh) which is the Son. Which are you denying that Jesus has no power.
Yes, I say Jesus has no power of his own and "I donot need to deny Christ has no power of his own and his power comes from God through him"

There is no conflicts or contradictions in my statements. I am relying on Christ's own words concerning his own power and the source of his authority and power. I said 'I do not need to deny' this because I rely on Christ's own words.

I think TrevorL's thread picks up well wheremine leaves off.

[mrsnacks]

How does the Oneness group interpret John 17? Is Jesus praying to himself?

If Jesus is, then what does vs. 11 mean? "And I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, keep them in your name, which you have given me, that they may be one, even as we are one."

If this verse isn't saying that Jesus and the Father are separate...then what is it saying?

Jesus is praying to the Father that his disciples may remain one, just as He and the Father are. But if you claim that "even as we are one" is literal...when why would Jesus was his disciples to literally be one when that is impossible.

Just wonderin' how you interpret this...thanks...
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I am waiting to hear a response. Who was Jesus talking to ? When Jesus prayed "Our Father which art in heaven ..." who was He praying to ? And Jesus' prayer on the cross . If Jesus and the Father are the same person -- all this makes no sense.

[shunyadragon]

How does the Oneness group interpret John 17? Is Jesus praying to himself?

If Jesus is, then what does vs. 11 mean? "And I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, keep them in your name, which you have given me, that they may be one, even as we are one."

If this verse isn't saying that Jesus and the Father are separate...then what is it saying?

Jesus is praying to the Father that his disciples may remain one, just as He and the Father are. But if you claim that "even as we are one" is literal...when why would Jesus was his disciples to literally be one when that is impossible.

Just wonderin' how you interpret this...thanks...
-----------------------------------
I am waiting to hear a response. Who was Jesus talking to ? When Jesus prayed "Our Father which art in heaven ..." who was He praying to ? And Jesus' prayer on the cross . If Jesus and the Father are the same person -- all this makes no sense.
This is correct. This deepens the contradictioon of calling Christ God.

[mrsnacks]

How does this deepen the contradiction ? The trinity is not a contradiction
is it ? God the Son Jesus talking to God the Father.

[shunyadragon]

How does this deepen the contradiction ? The trinity is not a contradiction
is it ? God the Son Jesus talking to God the Father.
It is not God the Son, but the Son of God.

[Vivian]

Hello All,

If we keep God in a box, Biblical scripture will seem contadictory and fuel endless debates that get us no where but around in circles via intellectual diatribe.

Spirit is Spirit, Flesh is flesh. Jesus was a son of man born of flesh, but he was/is also a spirit consciousness born of Spirit and as such a hier to Sonship. He distinctly refers to himself as both.

Being one in flesh or united sexually is an image or shadow of being One in Spirit, or being joined in consciousness, which is the mystery that Paul referred to and that which Jesus prayed for all men in John 17. That they may be One as We are.

Before all creation, there was One Spirit, an Absolute Intelligence, the Father God, and from the Absolute came two and from that two was born the Only Begotten Son, or Divine Love - Christ, which is also Spirit. The consciousness or breath of life that was placed in the physical being of Jesus became One with the Father through Unity with the Christ or Love Consciousness.

If you take the above understanding back into Biblical scripture, it will all make sense. There will be no contradictions


vivian

[Richbee]

How does the Oneness group interpret John 17? Is Jesus praying to himself?

In John 17, we have an opportunity to seek the truth:


John 17:5

“Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself [para seautō], with the glory which I had [eichon] with You [para soi] before the world was” (emphasis added).

Quote:

In Jesus’ high Priestly prayer to the Father, He says that He had or shared (eichon) glory with (para) the Father before the world was (pro tou ton kosmon einai). Grammatically, when the preposition para (“with”) is followed by the dative case (as in this verse: para seautō, para soi), especially in reference to persons, it indicates “near,” “beside,” or “in the presence of.”

Noted Greek scholar Daniel B. Wallace provides the precise meaning of the preposition para followed by the dative:

In general, the dative uses suggest proximity or nearness.

a. Spatial: near, beside.

b. Sphere: in the sight of, before (someone).

c. Association: with (someone/something).

In the exhaustive BDAG Greek lexicon, the preposition para with the dative is well defined:

[para] w.[ith] the dat., the case that exhibits close association . . . marker of nearness in space, at/by (at the side of), beside, near, with, acc. to the standpoint fr. which the relationship is viewed.

Even so, Oneness teachers argue that the glory that Jesus (the Son) had with the Father, only signified the future glory or plan in the Father’s mind.23 In other words, as Bernard explains, the Father “can regard things that do not exist as though they do exist . . . that is why the man Jesus could pray, ‘O Father, glorify thou me with thine self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.’”24 In this way of thinking, Oneness teachers often assert that believers were also foreknown before the world was—before they existed. They usually point to Ephesians 1:4: “just as He chose us before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him.”

Source:: Click Here - More (www.christiandefense.org/one_preexistence.htm#JOHN175)

[Richbee]

Hello All,

If we keep God in a box, Biblical scripture will seem contadictory and fuel endless debates that get us no where but around in circles via intellectual diatribe.

Spirit is Spirit, Flesh is flesh. Jesus was a son of man born of flesh, but he was/is also a spirit consciousness born of Spirit and as such a hier to Sonship. He distinctly refers to himself as both.

Being one in flesh or united sexually is an image or shadow of being One in Spirit, or being joined in consciousness, which is the mystery that Paul referred to and that which Jesus prayed for all men in John 17. That they may be One as We are.

Before all creation, there was One Spirit, an Absolute Intelligence, the Father God, and from the Absolute came two and from that two was born the Only Begotten Son, or Divine Love - Christ, which is also Spirit. The consciousness or breath of life that was placed in the physical being of Jesus became One with the Father through Unity with the Christ or Love Consciousness.

If you take the above understanding back into Biblical scripture, it will all make sense. There will be no contradictions


vivian

We can stop all the circular reasoning, by asking and seeking the truth of 1 John 2:22.

Who is the Lair? Or, who has Anti-Christ motives?

[Richbee]

I was actually debating a oneness follower (apostolic, I believe), and this argument seemed very persuasive:

In John 5:31, Jesus says "If I alone testify about Myself, My testimony is not true."

And in verse 37, He says, ""And the Father who sent Me, He has testified of Me."

Now, if you're a Oneness follower, you have a problem, because Jesus just called Himself as His own witness, which He just said was "not true". If there ever was a case of bearing false witness, this is it.

Thoughts?

Michael

Context is key, and let me see, if my post is new or brings a different perspective.

Quote:

At the outset, when the entire chapter is plainly read one cannot escape the clear distinctions between the Father and the Son. For example, notice in John 5:30-32 the straightforwardness in which the Son differentiates Himself from the Father:


“I can do nothing on My own initiative. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is just, because I do not seek My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. If I alone testify about Myself, My testimony is not true. There is another [allos estin] who testifies of Me, and I know that the testimony which He gives about Me is true” (emphasis added).

“There is another,” Jesus said, not one, but ANOTHER (allos).13 Do Oneness advocates really think that Jesus’ audience would have understood Jesus as saying, “Oh yes, there is “another” witness however what I really mean is the “other” witness that I keep talking about, well, that is really Me—as the Father.” In candidness, to completely abandon the plain reading, “There is another witness,” and trade it for modalism, is beyond a simple read-out interpretation, it is completely eisegetical, reading into the text a meaning that is external to the passage itself. Furthermore, there is even a larger strike against the Oneness rendering of the passage. We touched on it above. It is concerning the term “name” again.

Now, look at the whole of John 5, and look at:

John 5:43

“I have come in My Father’s name, and you did not receive Me; if another comes in his own name, you will receive him.”


In Oneness theology, the name of the unipersonal deity is “Jesus.” So, Oneness teachers tell us when Jesus here claims that He comes “in His Father’s name,” He is actually declaring that the name of the Father (and the Son) is “Jesus.”

Source:: Click Here (www.christiandefense.com/one_JesusFather.htm#john5:43)

[Richbee]

How can you quote from the bible sayind that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Without believing the spirit of Jesus is God`s spirit or Holy Ghost. the bible says
Gal 4:6 And because you are children, God sent out the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, "Abba, Father!"

Phi 1:19 For I know that this will turn out to my salvation, through your supplication and the supply of the Spirit of Yeshua the Messiah,

What is the above implying it was the Spirit of God which is Jesus Christ.
I told you The Spirit of God dwellth in the Son .& that is Jesus Christ.

The Spirit of God, which is Jesus spirit, is the bear witness of the flesh. Not the Son one body & the father body.

1Pe 1:11 searching for who or what kind of time the Spirit of Messiah, which was in them, pointed to, when he predicted the sufferings of Messiah, and the glories that would follow them.

The spirit of Messiah leads them & pointing them so that they will follw glory.

Jesus promised to send the Holy Spirit, who would testify of the Son.

IMO, this is the Holy Spirit, but it is not error to say, "the spirit of Christ" as God is spirit, and the triune nature of God is true. Separate "persona"or persons, - separate and distinct - yet ONE.

1 and 2 Corinthians can be confusing and Paul's language is a little different, but not a contradiction.

CAUTION:

Here is a verse often debated and that can cause diversion:

2 Corinthians 3:17

"Now the Lord is the spirit...."

Notice the key to scripture twisting, is to highlight one part of one verse, and without taking in the whole of what the scripture teaches about the tri-une plural nature of God the Father, Jesus Christ the Son, and the Holy Spirit who testifies to the truth in our hearts.

So, if we take one verse, or a couple out of context, I am sure we can start a broohahaha.

[Vivian]

I'm not here to rip the "oneness" group into pieces...I just want to try to better understand your point of view. Can anyone from the oneness group please explain how and why you interpret these verses? Thanks...

John 17:11

Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me,[a] that they may be one as We are.

Be in the world but not of it.

Jesus is saying that although his physical body/son of man is in the physical realm, his consciousness is not. In his mind he has United with perfect Love/Wisdom/Knowledge/Intelligence and Knows His Sonship.


Most of us are both in the world and of the world, for our body and mind reside fully in this realm.


When Jesus states that He is going to the Father, he is referrring to first the transfiguration of his physical being into a being of light and then the dissolving of his separate personality into the Oneness of the Father. There He was purged of any last remnants of darkness that remained in Him and then was able to return to this world through the materialization and dematerialization of his being as he willed.


vivian

[mrsnacks]

Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

Sounds like Jesus is God to me . How can one get away with John 1 :1. The Word is God and the Word became flesh ?

[Vivian]

Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

Sounds like Jesus is God to me . How can one get away with John 1 :1. The Word is God and the Word became flesh ?


Hi Mrsnacks,

First there was only Absolute Spirit, Cosmic Consciousness, who had a thought to experience Itself. In that thought, Spirit brought forth a piece of Itself, identical, except being finite.

And from the experiencing of the Infinite with this finite piece of Itself, Divine Love or Christ was born as the only begotten Son, an image of the Absolute invisible God. By and for Christ was all created that was created.

First there was One, then Two, then Three, and out of the Third came many.

The Word is the Thought, the Vibration - like a Voice - that came out from the Infinite Absolute Intelligence. That Word came forth into creation through Christ and was incarnate here in this world in the flesh of Jesus.

Spirit is Spirit and begats Spirit. Invisible can only begat Invisible.

Christ is Spirit and the only begotton from the Absolute Infinite. Jesus is visible, a creation, a son of man.

Jesus the Christ was a son of man in whom the Invisible only begotten Son of the Invisible God was incarnate or manifest.

vivian

[shunyadragon]

Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

Sounds like Jesus is God to me . How can one get away with John 1 :1. The Word is God and the Word became flesh ?
Easy John chapter 5. Christ explains in detail his relationship to God. He is not God.

[misterguss]

First there was only Absolute Spirit, Cosmic Consciousness, who had a thought to experience Itself. In that thought, Spirit brought forth a piece of Itself, identical, except being finite.

And from the experiencing of the Infinite with this finite piece of Itself, Divine Love or Christ was born as the only begotten Son, an image of the Absolute invisible God. By and for Christ was all created that was created.

First there was One, then Two, then Three, and out of the Third came many.

The Word is the Thought, the Vibration - like a Voice - that came out from the Infinite Absolute Intelligence. That Word came forth into creation through Christ and was incarnate here in this world in the flesh of Jesus.

Spirit is Spirit and begats Spirit. Invisible can only begat Invisible.

Christ is Spirit and the only begotton from the Absolute Infinite. Jesus is visible, a creation, a son of man.

Jesus the Christ was a son of man in whom the Invisible only begotten Son of the Invisible God was incarnate or manifest.
Where did you learn this from? What teachings?

[Vivian]

Where did you learn this from? What teachings?


Hi misterguss!

These words first began as my own thoughts in response to knowings or unveilings of the mind that occurred in prayerful and meditative connection with God.

The first thoughts came through in phrases such as:

When we are One with God and say "I" we are referring to Him for there is no separate identity in the Unity of God.

God's Word is a vibration and flows out from Him like our voice flows out from us.

There are opposites in this world - such as mercy and judgment - and Absolute Truth exists above them encompassing them both. Finding It requires stepping out of the extremes and into the center.

These knowings began to open up the deeper meanings behind the words found in Biblical scripture and led me on a journey to expand my understanding even further.

It was a difficult walk through the wilderness for there is much distortion and deception in this world. But with spiritual senses to guide, I followed what felt right, or resonated/vibrated with the feeling behind the orignal revelations, and finally found a bounty of Truth in the words of Teachers who have been mostly rejected by the world.


The world...hates me because I testify that what it does is evil.

All men will hate you because of me.

Much Truth can be found in the public writings of Paramahansa Yogananda, for those who are interested.


vivian

[endy]

Jesus promised to send the Holy Spirit, who would testify of the Son.

IMO, this is the Holy Spirit, but it is not error to say, "the spirit of Christ" as God is spirit, and the triune nature of God is true. Separate "persona"or persons, - separate and distinct - yet ONE.

1 and 2 Corinthians can be confusing and Paul's language is a little different, but not a contradiction.

CAUTION:

Here is a verse often debated and that can cause diversion:

2 Corinthians 3:17

"Now the Lord is the spirit...."

Notice the key to scripture twisting, is to highlight one part of one verse, and without taking in the whole of what the scripture teaches about the tri-une plural nature of God the Father, Jesus Christ the Son, and the Holy Spirit who testifies to the truth in our hearts.

So, if we take one verse, or a couple out of context, I am sure we can start a broohahaha.
If your understanding is true how spirits does God have?
Is it one spirit OR 3 spirits?

[Krusader]

Oneness theology rejects the concept of the trinity, saying that Jesus is the entirity of God, and that the various names are just how He represents Himself in that setting.

Michael
The Oneness doctrine is a form of modalism, rejected by the early church as heretical. It basically teaches that there is only One Person in the Godhead. The Father was incarnated as the Son, and now exists as the Holy Spirit. There are variations of this belief, one called Noetism is similar.

The best argument against them is that if there is only One Person in the Godhead, how do you justify the many incidents of subject-object communication found in Scripture? For instance, Jesus said, "into Thine hands I commend my spirit," was this just plain subterfuge, or did Jesus actually commit His spirit to His Father?

The current form of Oneness teaching originated in the Assemblies of God at a revival meeting. It was rejected by the Assemblies and is currently found among Apostolics, Branhamites, United Pentecostals and smaller fringe groups.