Need Help on John 12:31-32

[Jaltus]

31 Now is the time for judgment on this world; now the prince of this world will be driven out.
32 But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself."


Okay, the problem I am having is the timing issues inherent in this verse. I would appreciate help digging into the Greek of the verbs in order to determine what is going on here.

I do not want to say more than that for fear of spoiling the discussion.

[John Reece]

Jaltus wants help with the Greek?

:huh:

[Pereynol of Sheer Dread]

While I'll not presume to be able to "help" the finest Greek scholar on these boards, I will offer my two cents:

vs. 31: Now a judgment is upon this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out.

Paradoxically, as Christ appears condemned by the powers of this cosmos, what really happens is that Christ is glorified in the crucifixion. The world system is judged, and the ruler of this world "will be cast out. And the sins of all Christians are wiped away within the atonement. Contrary to appearances, Christ's seeming defeat is actually his truimph; the apparent victory of the ruler of this world is actually his downfall. Satan is henceforward an illicit dictator whose right to rule is anulled in the cross. The future passive though---is it punctilliar? Reminds me of the kingdom of heaven and its "nearness"---not so much exegetically as intuitively, if that makes any sense.

vs.32: And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, I will draw all to myself.

Again, this seems the language of conquest. The subjunctive entails no uncertainty, and the future helkusw is a matter of Christ's sovereign design. Much to be debated about this with respect to Calvinism/Arminianism...

[Pereynol of Sheer Dread]

More explicitly, and, more paradoxically, one could assert that the judgment of the cosmos was actually visited upon Christ himself in the atonement---which was his hour of glory. All the wrath of God for the sins of the world was poured out upon the Messianic King. The application of the atonement extends to those who believe, but the judgment will recoil upon those who are not in Christ. There remain all sorts of soteriological issues to address here---most particularly exclusivism vs inclusivism (or, in some quarters, universalism or pluralism)---but we do see that the cosmos is judged in Christ as he bears the weight of all the sins of all human beings, IMHO, and possibly the creation's subjection to vanity, as Romans 8 has it, as well. I don't mean to get overly theological here---but there it is anyway....

[RevSteve45]

31 Now is the time for judgment on this world; now the prince of this world will be driven out.
32 But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself."

Okay, the problem I am having is the timing issues inherent in this verse. I would appreciate help digging into the Greek of the verbs in order to determine what is going on here.

I do not want to say more than that for fear of spoiling the discussion.

Well, I am no Greek expert, but I will take a stab at it:

In verse 31, the verbs are "is" and "shall be cast out." In verse 32, the verbs are "I be lifted up," and "will draw."

For verse 31, the grammatical breakdown is as follows:

"is" is the Greek verb "estin." Here it is in the 3rd person singular indicative perfect active.
Therefore, this would seem to indicate that the judgment Jesus is speaking of, is curently taking place.

"shall be cast out" is the Greek verb "ekblethesetai." It is in the 3rd person singular indicative future passive.
This would indicate that the "casting out" of Satan will take place at some point in the future. However, what the "passive" voice means here, I am not sure. My commentary says it indicates the subject, which I take to be Satan, is being acted upon. So Satan will be cast out.

For verse 32:
"I be lifted up" is the Greek verb "hupsotho." It is in the 1st person singular subjunctive aorist passive.
I believe this is in the aorist tense, because the aorist indicates a completed act. It is not until the "lifting up" of Jesus from the earth (which we know from other verses to refer to His crucifixion) is completed, that He will begin drawing people to Himself.

"will draw" is the Greek verb "helkuso." It is in the 1st person singular future active.
So, then, after the "completed act" of being "lifted up," (crucified) is completed, Jesus will begin drawing all people to Himself.

In His Service,
Steve

[Waterrock]

Jaltus,

A couple of interesting features:

(1) The "judgment of this world" may be the sort of judgment by which Noah condemned the world (a la Hebrews 11:7 - in the sense that he showed that everyone else's actions were without excuse). Christ would, shortly after making this statement, present His own perfect life to the Father. The voice from heaven (in 12:28) may signify that that God's verdict has not changed: the world still needs saving, the devil still needs expelling; Christ's mission is not yet finished ~ but its final phase, as far as His earthly ministry is concerned, is underway /now/ (i.e., as of 12:31).

(2) The judgment is "now," and "now" will the ruler of this world be cast out. In 16:11, Jesus states that "the ruler of this world has been judged." Taken as it stands, this could be used as the grounds to propose that Christ is picturing His own trial and testings (which He foreknows to be a fait-accompli) as a testing of the kingdom of this world (and, assuming that "ruler of this world" refers to Satan, of Satan's domain), which has been, along with its ruler, found wanting in the sight of God.

That which shows the love of Christ (and thus vindicates it) simultaneously demonstrates the perfidy of Satan and the sin-sickness of the human heart (and thus manifests their guiltiness and sin). When a person realizes those things -- when one realizes what sin is, and what God's righteousness is -- and one must judge between between them -- then, the more Christ is seen to merit lordship of our lives, the more Satan (and we ourselves also) will be seen to not deserve it.

Daily, now, always, may we cast off our crowns at the wounded feet of the Lord. Jesus reigns!

Yours in Christ,
Waterrock

[George Blaisdell]

nun krisis estin tou kosmou toutou,

Now judgement is of the world this...

nun o arcwn tou kosmou toutou ekblhqhsetai exw

Now the ruler of the world this will be expelled out...

kagw ean uywqw ek ths ghs, pantas elkusw pros emauton.

And I, if I should be uplifted from the earth, all will draw to myself.

So what is the issue of tenses?

The judgement of this world is at hand.
The rulership of this world will be expelled.
All that needs to happen [subjunctive uywqw] is that Christ be lifted up from the earth [via the cross...]
And upon that action, there will follow the drawing of all men unto Himself.

Where is the problem?

geo

[John Reece]

Thanks, geo.

[Jaltus]

The problem I have is that the timing of the verbs makes it look like Jesus was to be crucified AFTER the judgment of Satan.

Now what do you think?

[George Blaisdell]

Jaltus writes:

> The problem I have is that the timing of the verbs makes it look like Jesus was to be crucified AFTER the judgment of Satan.

> Now what do you think?

Well, I haven't double checked context yet, but isn't this part of the "Now my time is come"? As opposed to Cana and the "What to you and to Me, Woman? My time is NOT YET come."

So that His time is come, it is now, the process is set in motion, where His destiny awaits, upon the Holy Cross, lifted above the earth, in an unimaginable agony from a world already overcome, for "I have overcome the world."

And it is this event that will bring judgement upon Satan, for the creator of Life, indeed Life Himself, will die the world's death, and by this death will death itself be defeated and trampled down, and men of Christ's faith, called out from the world [ek-klesias = out-called], will no longer fear death, but will overcome the world, moving from victory to victory, overcoming the world in a way that scarce notices the yawing gates of Gehenna, for they are in Christ, entered in Him in HIS baptism, which was in the River Jordan... And this event destroys the power of death, and pain, and hardship, and hunger, and cold, and suffering - All the tools of Satan that keep us under his power on the earth, as Christ is lifted up upon the cross of pain and death ABOVE the earth, trampling down death by His death, and releasing all men from hell...

That is the judgement upon Satan... His defeat within his own realm of power, and nothing he can do will stop this loving and utterly self sacrificial faith. He is put to shame by every Christian living a repentant life...

So that, dear Jaltus, the executing of judgement upon Satan is the event of the crucifixion and resurrection, and by this event, referred to here by reference to being lifted up, Christ will gather all toward Himself...

So that the text points toward the Crucifixion as the execution of the judgement upon Satan - Is someone seriously arguing that it is outside the crucifixion?

geo

[George Blaisdell]

Jaltus -

I was mulling over your timing issue today via the verb tenses, and the big pickle I'll betcha is NUN, isn't it? For if the judgement of the world is NOW, then it is before the crucifixion, because Christ, who is speaking this word, is not yet crucified. Is THAT the timing that is messing with you?

If yes, then it is a fairly small matter, I should think, to understand it as a "time of the event" now, meaning the onset of the action of an event - much as one might say on the eve of a military campaign, or an action, or even a skirmish, that "Now is the resolution of the conflict."

One interesting aside in this passage concerns the use of the subjunctive, for it is there to show Christ's willingly deliberate acceptance of the passion about to begin. "If I should be lifted up above the earth" means that, "If I should NOT be so lifted up" is the alternative, and He chooses the cross, obviously.

That is one of the reasons the subjunctive is so extensively found in the NT, and almost never the optative, so frequently found in the Attic classics, for in Scripture we are given what we should do, with the proviso that we can refuse, but should not... Our willing participation in our salvation is essential, though utterly dependent upon God's Holy Grace...

geo