Maximizing for Two Variables

[Jack777]

Did you know that you cannot maximize for two variables? If you take two things, one you cannot maximize for along with another. This is something that people who know math tell us. People look for a unification theory that encompasses everything, something that explains it all. The Bible tells us over and over that there is only One Unity and He is God. How can Jesus be the Beginning and the End? How is it that He is One? People can say, well, He is two things, the Beginning and the End, not One. That is not true though. He says that he and the Father are One. People say that cannot be true because the Father and the Son are two persons. Jesus and the Father and the Holy Spirit are One. People say that cannot be true because they are three persons. Have you ever heard about the people sitting in a living room with an elephant sitting in between them and they have to crane their necks around it to see each other and do so when they are talking? Someone comes in the room and asks what is this elephant doing in the room? They all answer that there is no elephant in the room as they crane their necks to look at the new visitor. The visitor wonders what in the world is up with these people. They all begin to correct the visitor and offer many reasons why there cannot be an elephant in the room. Science is like that for some people. Denial is a big thing with us, it is a powerful defense mechanism that keeps our brains from shutting down from too much sensory stimuli. You cannot blame the people in the room for if they see the elephant, their circuits would fry on the spot.

Daniel saw an angel and the angel talked to him. In fact he saw a couple of angels. he lost his strength from the experience. The guys with him did not see the angels but started quaking and fled. People seeing angels in the Bible report that kind of thing. I think it fries our circuits to some extent. An elephant is big but it is an animal, a created thing. People would be shocked to know that there had been an elephant in the living room all the time they were sitting in the living room, but seeing an angel would be more shocking to us. I think that considering God is One freaks people out. Thinking that God is the Only One is too much for some reason. God and Moses put the Children of Israel into a sort of basic training and even though things were explained carefully and God was with them visibly as a cloud by day and a fire by night, all of them died and could not go into the Promised Land. Just this fact makes me think God is different than we are in a huge way. He did not let Moses see Him or Moses would have died. Moses came down from the mountain and his face glowed from being so close to God. He had to wear a veil over his face as a result. Even approaching the Word of God is like that to our minds. Some people recoil at it and never get over it. It is humbling just to understand the simplest thing God has to say. To me, the Bible is powerful and alive. God grants us His Grace and gives us Faith and the Holy Spirit guides us into knowing things that God wants us to know. Our minds somehow have difficulty with the Bible and in part, it might be for a reason similar to seeing an angel.

If I had to pick one thing to decide could be maximized easily, I would choose God I hope. I choose everyday. I hope I choose for God as One. Everyday. People who believe, choose for God as One. People who believe choose God as Creator. Study of the Earth, the Universe, and things in between is done by many with that in mind. It can be tricky to choose for God as One each day and look into some things. Knowing what choices we make in whatever it is that we do becomes important for this reason.

[Jugulum]

Did you know that you cannot maximize for two variables? If you take two things, one you cannot maximize for along with another. This is something that people who know math tell us. People look for a unification theory that encompasses everything, something that explains it all. The Bible tells us over and over that there is only One Unity and He is God.
<snip>
If I had to pick one thing to decide could be maximized easily, I would choose God I hope. I choose everyday. I hope I choose for God as One. Everyday. People who believe, choose for God as One. People who believe choose God as Creator. Study of the Earth, the Universe, and things in between is done by many with that in mind. It can be tricky to choose for God as One each day and look into some things. Knowing what choices we make in whatever it is that we do becomes important for this reason. I don't follow. In what way is seeking a grand unification theory for physical phenomena similar to maximizing an equation for a variable? How is God a variable, and in what sense do we "maximize" him? From the fact that you're applying mathematical theory to the issue, I assume you have something mathematical in mind--in other words, that you're speaking quantitatively, not qualitatively. So...what's the quantity? For that matter, what's the equation being maximized?

By "maximize God", do you mean keeping God on the throne of our lives or regarding him with all due reverence/honor/fear/awe? If so, how is that related to seeking a scientific theory that can describe/explain all the observed physical phenomena? How would such a theory exclude God any more than the unification of planetary motion into Newtonian mechanics?

If you can't describe what you're thinking of quantitatively, I submit that you're mixing qualitative and quantitative analysis in way that just doesn't work.

If your main point is that scientists with a wrong view of God (atheists, pantheists, etc.) will make wrong conclusions about the nature of the universe, I suppose I agree with you, to an extent. But modern science is concerned with the mechanisms and behaviors of the universe; science does not explore the purpose of the universe, its teleology, and that's where a wrong view of God is going to lead them most astray. The only scientific problems they might have is when God does something out of the ordinary or miraculous.

[Jack777]

Well, I mean it very simply really.

The GUT is God is one way to say it. I know it may sound like heresy, but it is in the Bible. See Col 1:17.

God = 1

God always equals One.

God is the Constant. He is the only variable that can be maximized for as One. Unity = One.

Before the Universe was created, its value was zero. It gains in value as events pass, reaches a maximum value and then trends toward zero at some point. God is One all the while.

I may have stated it loosely, maybe not. God is equal to One at the Beginning of the Universe and at the End. He is equal to One in between, but it is not a line we are talking. He is One in every direction from where you are or I am.

Good grief, this is hard to explain in 25 words or less. Equation? I guess if I could come up with one that fit all of reality that would be good, but I cannot.

However, quantum mechanics works because there is a beginning and an end to the universe, because Jesus is the Beginning and the End. Reconciling relativity and quantum mechanics is what Jesus does. Do you see?

[Jugulum]

Do you see? Ah, no. So far, if there's sense in what you're saying, I don't see it.

Well, I mean it very simply really.

The GUT is God is one way to say it. I know it may sound like heresy, but it is in the Bible. See Col 1:17. Yes, God holds everything together. According to Heb. 1:2-3, it was Christ specifically who both created and maintains everything. I ask again: What does that have to do with GUT? If Wikipedia's entry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Unification_Theory) is correct, a GUT doesn't even attempt to explain everything--it just tries to unite the strong nuclear force with the electromagnetic/weak force, the same way we united the electric and magnetic forces, and later the weak nuclear force with electromagnetism. GUT doesn't include gravitation; a theory that does is called a Theory of Everything.

If we ever figure out such a theory, I fail to see how it would have anything to do with God's maintaining influence. If someone announces tomorrow, "We've figured out quantum gravity and unified electromagnetic, strong, and weak particle interactions," will you say, "Well that can't be right--Col. 1:17 clearly states that no such theory can be valid." The notion strikes me as fundamentally ridiculous.

God = 1

God always equals One.

God is the Constant. He is the only variable that can be maximized for as One. Unity = One. One what? Are there units attached to this number? And which is it--is God a constant, or a variable? Either way, what equation is God part of?

Before the Universe was created, its value was zero. It gains in value as events pass, reaches a maximum value and then trends toward zero at some point. God is One all the while. What on earth does that mean? How does the universe have a quantitative "value"? In what way has it increased? What would the point of maximum value represent? How will it trend toward zero again? What kind of units does it have? What does its value at any given point represent? What does any of this have to do with your original statement, "Did you know that you cannot maximize for two variables?" Didn't you just say that the universe was or will be "maximized"?

However, quantum mechanics works because there is a beginning and an end to the universe, Huh?

because Jesus is the Beginning and the End. Reconciling relativity and quantum mechanics is what Jesus does. Do you see? No. On what do you base that contention? What will you do if a theory of quantum gravity is achieved? Push God back into some other gap?

If you feel attacked, mocked, or ridiculed, I apologize. I realize these objections probably come across as contemptuous, but I really don't know how to reword them without giving what you're saying more credence than I think it deserves. Honestly, all I can see is a bunch of pseudo-scientific mumbo-jumbo. And if it looks ridiculous to me, I can only imagine how it must look to an unbeliever. If it really is nonsense, all you're doing is making Christians look bad. If it's not, please, show me.

My guess is that you're attempting to express purely metaphysical, philosophical concepts in language that just doesn't apply. That stuff about "God being 1 before the universe began" and about "him being a constant as opposed to the universe" might work as metaphors for real spiritual truths, but they're only metaphors. Limitations on maximizing equations and the reconciliation of quantum mechanics and relativity just don't enter into it.

[Jugulum]

If we ever figure out such a theory, I fail to see how it would have anything to do with God's maintaining influence. I'd like to expand this point just a bit.

We really don't know how God maintains/upholds/sustains all things. It very well could be something science does (or will someday) see as an unexplained "gap", or it may simply be that he breathes life into the equations, that he makes the forces work. I don't really know. Sometimes I wonder whether the natural/supernatural dichotomy is off-base, and all God's miraculous interventions can be described in interactions science can understand--not as a way of bridging gaps, rather denying their existence. It's interesting to speculate, but ultimately fruitless.

[George Murphy]

Did you know that you cannot maximize for two variables? If you take two things, one you cannot maximize for along with another. This is something that people who know math tell us.Sorry Jack, this is not something that people who know math will tell you. If you mean that two different functions can't have maxima at the same point, a counterexample is the circle x^2 + y^2 = 4 and the parabola y = 2 - x^2, both of which have maxima at the point (0,2). (The two curves have a common horizontal tangent y = 2.)

OTOH if you mean that a function of two variables can't be maximized then of course this is wrong, as any calculus text dealing with partial derivatives will show you.

If you mean something else then you need to explain yourself more clearly.

As to your theological point, of course. Jesus said it in Mark 12:30-31.

Shalom,
George

[Jack777]

Hmm, well.

Jugulum,

I do not care how things look to a believer or a non-believer.

One is a unitless number, there is no "what?"

Anyway, the responses tell me that I cannot make myself understood, which is what I needed to know. Thanks!:smile:

[Jugulum]

Hmm, well.

Jugulum,

I do not care how things look to a believer or a non-believer. That seems curious to me. I realize that as Christians, we will be mocked, ridiculed, and generally persecuted. I also realize that the wisdom of God sometimes seems foolish to someone who doesn't know him. But it seems to me that using poor reasoning--invalid apologetics--in defense of the faith is a very poor witness. That is, if we give non-believers just cause to ridicule us, we will not be commended.

One is a unitless number, there is no "what?" I can accept that; sometimes unitless numbers do show up. But you must have "what?" in mind--if the number has no meaning, then your statements about it are likewise meaningless. It's like saying that the answer to the Problem of Evil is 37--and then drawing implications from the fact that 37 is a prime number.

Anyway, the responses tell me that I cannot make myself understood, which is what I needed to know. Thanks!:smile: Any time. :smile: