Our "duty" toward the Watchtower Society

[CodePoet]

A friend sent this to me the other day: "If the message the Jehovah's Witnesses are bringing to the people is true, then it is of greatest importance to mankind. If it is false, then it is the duty of the clergymen and others who support them to come boldly forward and plainly tell the people wherein the message is false." Golden Age, January 18, 1933 p.252
With this position in mind, why (he asks rhetorically) does the Watchtower Society promote its persecution complex among its members?

blessings,
Mark

[barryrob]

A friend sent this to me the other day:"If the message the Jehovah's Witnesses are bringing to the people is true, then it is of greatest importance to mankind. If it is false, then it is the duty of the clergymen and others who support them to come boldly forward and plainly tell the people wherein the message is false." Golden Age, January 18, 1933 p.252


With this position in mind, why (he asks rhetorically) does the Watchtower Society promote its persecution complex* among its members?


blessings,
Mark

It is a question you, me, anyone must judge for themselves.



*Become a Jehovah's Witnesses and find out for yourself!



Think! The time was the 30s when people where far more godly than today and JWs then did have a bad times in some places which got worse as the WW2 got closer due to our neutral stand, but the Clergy did not remove as they would have liked to.



Barryrob

[CodePoet]

*Become a Jehovah's Witnesses and find out for yourself!

Think! The time was the 30s when people where far more godly than today and JWs then did have a bad times in some places which got worse as the WW2 got closer due to our neutral stand, but the Clergy did not remove as they would have liked to.
Hi Barryrob,

I don't agree that people in general were any more godly than people are today. Granted, there may have been more godly people numerically in this country in the 1930's than today, but they weren't more godly. Or, are you saying that JWs were more godly in the 1930's than JWs today?

Granted, some JWs did face hard times in the 30's for their religious principals, but so did non-JWs. Remember that JWs shared prison cells with Mennonites because of the neutrality issue. But, they were jailed for violating secular law at the time. It had nothing to do with the clergy.

So, the time period notwithstanding, would you say that this is still a valid challenge today? I ask because some JWs I know view all challenges to their doctrine — especially by "the clergy" — as a form of persecution.

As for your "Become a Jehovah's Witnesses and find out for yourself!" comment,I would counter by urging all JWs to come to Jesus directly and experience God's saving grace apart from the legalism of the Watchtower Society.

blessings,
Mark

[barryrob]

Hi Barryrob,
A I don't agree that people in general were any more godly than people are today. Granted, there may have been more godly people numerically in this country in the 1930's than today, but they weren't more godly. Or, are you saying that JWs were more godly in the 1930's than JWs today?

B Granted, some JWs did face hard times in the 30's for their religious principals, but so did non-JWs. Remember that JWs shared prison cells with Mennonites because of the neutrality issue. But, they were jailed for violating secular law at the time. It had nothing to do with the clergy.

C So, the time period notwithstanding, would you say that this is still a valid challenge today? I ask because some JWs I know view all challenges to their doctrine — especially by "the clergy" — as a form of persecution.

D As for your "Become a Jehovah's Witnesses and find out for yourself!" comment,I would counter by urging all JWs to come to Jesus directly and experience God's saving grace apart from the legalism of the Watchtower Society.

blessings,Mark

A The common view of homosexuality and say women teaching in Church and

general respect for Christian ways was far more prevalent and respected then than they are today. It has been said the we now live in a Post Christian England (here I live).


B WT 1957 10/1 p. 589 Petition to Generalissimo Trujillo
We again respectfully call your attention to the instigation on the part of the Roman Catholic clergy behind all this religious persecution. On June 30 the Jesuit priest named Vazquez Sanz lectured over the radio station to start off the campaign of hate against Jehovah’s witnesses. The newspapers published this lecture in which this Jesuit called Jehovah’s witnesses Communists, haters of all order, disrespectful of laws of the Dominican Republic, and many other false things. Besides the newspapers, other prominent men in Santo Domingo also wrote like articles, until finally, by July 29, hundreds of inches of space had been used against Jehovah’s witnesses. Another Roman Catholic priest, named Robles Toledano, is also on record as having given a talk. In it he said Jehovah’s witnesses were a cancerous growth and had to be eradicated from the Dominican Republic.


C Persecution is a direct or indirect attack on us for our beliefs which can take many forms. It can be or it can be that they are just misguided etc..

D "all JWs to come to Jesus directly and experience God's saving grace" this is what the Watchtower has taught me for 30 yrs.
Just a few thoughts.



Barryrob

[CodePoet]

A The common view of homosexuality and say women teaching in Church and

general respect for Christian ways was far more prevalent and respected then than they are today. It has been said the we now live in a Post Christian England (here I live).


B WT 1957 10/1 p. 589 Petition to Generalissimo Trujillo
We again respectfully call your attention to the instigation on the part of the Roman Catholic clergy behind all this religious persecution. On June 30 the Jesuit priest named Vazquez Sanz lectured over the radio station to start off the campaign of hate against Jehovah’s witnesses. The newspapers published this lecture in which this Jesuit called Jehovah’s witnesses Communists, haters of all order, disrespectful of laws of the Dominican Republic, and many other false things. Besides the newspapers, other prominent men in Santo Domingo also wrote like articles, until finally, by July 29, hundreds of inches of space had been used against Jehovah’s witnesses. Another Roman Catholic priest, named Robles Toledano, is also on record as having given a talk. In it he said Jehovah’s witnesses were a cancerous growth and had to be eradicated from the Dominican Republic.


C Persecution is a direct or indirect attack on us for our beliefs which can take many forms. It can be or it can be that they are just misguided etc..

D "all JWs to come to Jesus directly and experience God's saving grace" this is what the Watchtower has taught me for 30 yrs.
Just a few thoughts.



Barryrob Hi again Barryrob,

A. You are correct. Some denominations of Christianity (or Christendom, as you would call it) have caved in to liberalism, relativism, and what Dietrich Bonhoeffer called "cheap grace." Charles Colson has written several wonderful books in this vein. But, I was talking specifically about the godliness of individuals, not certain organizations within Christianity (the leaders of which, I believe, will have to answer for their watered-down theology some day).

B. I understand that there has been clergy-inspired persecution of the Witnesses (and other sects) over the years, and their conduct is inexcusable. However, my point was that it wasn't the clergy that put JWs in prison for their "neutral" stance during WWII. And, as an aside, it can be demonstrated that the Watchtower Society has remained anything but "neutral" over the years. There was a certain letter to Hitler in the 1930's — I'm sure you've seen it — in which the WTS leaders basically praised Der Fuhrer for his wonderful form of government. Then there was the small matter of the WTS's ten-year covert relationship with the United Nations. Hey, I understand that even voting is now a "conscience matter" for the rank-and-file.

C. If attacking the beliefs of others is persecution, than JWs have been guilty of this since Russell's day. Think about it.

D. Wrong. The Watchtower has taught you that the organization (represented by the WTS and its governing body) is your "ark of salvation," not Jesus. Unless you are one of the "anointed remnant," Jesus can't even mediate in your behalf! Have you gone to Jesus directly and asked Him to be your personal Savior? Does the WTS encourage its members to do so? If you left the organization today, would you still be assured of your salvation based on your relationship with Jesus? Not a chance. In fact, no JW has assurance of his or her salvation even while dutifully engaging in five meetings per week, field service, the Theocratic Ministry School, etc. What they have is a big "maybe." Barryrob, you are part of a legalistic works-oriented organization whose members never experience true freedom in Christ. But, it doesn't have to be that way for you. You can submit to Jesus's lordship and experience the fullness of God's grace. I assure you that it will surpass everything you've ever experienced in your 30 years as a JW.

blessings,
Mark

[barryrob]

Hi again Barryrob,
D. Wrong. The Watchtower has taught you that the organization (represented by the WTS and its governing body) is your "ark of salvation," not Jesus. Unless you are one of the "anointed remnant," Jesus can't even mediate in your behalf! Have you gone to Jesus directly and asked Him to be your personal Savior? Does the WTS encourage its members to do so? If you left the organization today, would you still be assured of your salvation based on your relationship with Jesus? Not a chance. In fact, no JW has assurance of his or her salvation even while dutifully engaging in five meetings per week, field service, the Theocratic Ministry School, etc. What they have is a big "maybe." Barryrob, you are part of a legalistic works-oriented organization whose members never experience true freedom in Christ. But, it doesn't have to be that way for you. You can submit to Jesus's lordship and experience the fullness of God's grace. I assure you that it will surpass everything you've ever experienced in your 30 years as a JW.
blessings, Mark


You are wrong:-

w01 11/15 p. 4 Is There Any Hope of Salvation?

Yes, Jesus Christ is "the Chief Agent of life," and salvation is possible only through him. (Acts 3:15) But how can one man be such a key figure in saving us? Having a clear understanding of his role in this regard should strengthen our hope of salvation.

w93 4/1 p. 6 Should You Be Baptized?
Moreover, according to the Scriptures, remission of sins comes only through the ransom sacrifice of Jesus Christ. Ananias urged Saul of Tarsus: "Rise, get baptized and wash your sins away by your calling upon [Jesus’] name." (Acts 22:12-16) Yes, salvation is possible only by means of the shed blood of Jesus and by "calling upon his name" in faith.—Hebrews 9:22; 1 John 1:7.

Barryrob

[CodePoet]

You are wrong:-

w01 11/15 p. 4 Is There Any Hope of Salvation?

Yes, Jesus Christ is "the Chief Agent of life," and salvation is possible only through him. (Acts 3:15) But how can one man be such a key figure in saving us? Having a clear understanding of his role in this regard should strengthen our hope of salvation.

w93 4/1 p. 6 Should You Be Baptized?
Moreover, according to the Scriptures, remission of sins comes only through the ransom sacrifice of Jesus Christ. Ananias urged Saul of Tarsus: "Rise, get baptized and wash your sins away by your calling upon [Jesus’] name." (Acts 22:12-16) Yes, salvation is possible only by means of the shed blood of Jesus and by "calling upon his name" in faith.—Hebrews 9:22; 1 John 1:7.

Barryrob
I find it interesting that you didn't address any of my specific questions regarding your relationship with Jesus.

Barryrob, it's not verses about Jesus that the Watchtower Society prints that's in question here — it's the meaning they pour into what the Scriptures say about Jesus. Also, your two quotes don't explain the whole WTS doctrine of salvation, as you well know. When you encounter a person at the door who asks, "What must I do to be saved?" what would be your response?

But, let's look at your two quotes.

First, the 11/15/2001 WT, which states, "Yes, Jesus Christ is 'the Chief Agent of life,' and salvation is possible only through him. (Acts 3:15) " So, based on this quote, you would agree then that becoming one of Jehovah's Witnesses is not necessary for salvation, correct? Or that if a JW disassociates himself or herself from organization but continues to believe in Christ, that one is still saved?

Second, the 4/1/1993 WT: "Yes, salvation is possible only by means of the shed blood of Jesus and by 'calling upon his name' in faith." Honestly, Barryrob, when was the last time you or another Witness you know literally called upon Jesus? Witnesses regularly call upon the name of "Jehovah," but not that of Jesus. And yet, the WT admits that salvation is only possible by addressing Jesus. What do you think the elders in your Kingdom Hall would do if you, the next time it is your turn to offer prayer, began with "Lord Jesus, we call upon you..." Or what would your elders do if they found out you were doing this in the privacy of your own home?

Consider John 5:22, 23: "The Father doesn't judge anyone, but he has made his Son the judge of everyone. The Father wants all people to honor the Son as much as they honor him. When anyone refuses to honor the Son, that is the same as refusing to honor the Father who sent him." (Contemporary English Version) Now, JWs believe that "the Father" is Jehovah. And the Bible says that Christians should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. Is this really the case among JWs? During the next few KH meetings or while you're out in field service, why not keep a tally of how many times the names "Jesus" and 'Jehovah" are mentioned. How about the number of times "Jesus' is mentioned in your song book, or in the pages of the WT? You might be surprised.

blessings,
Mark

[barryrob]

I find it interesting that you didn't address any of my specific questions regarding your relationship with Jesus.

Barryrob, it's not verses about Jesus that the Watchtower Society prints that's in question here — it's the meaning they pour into what the Scriptures say about Jesus. Also, your two quotes don't explain the whole WTS doctrine of salvation, as you well know. When you encounter a person at the door who asks, "What must I do to be saved?" what would be your response?

But, let's look at your two quotes.

First, the 11/15/2001 WT, which states, "Yes, Jesus Christ is 'the Chief Agent of life,' and salvation is possible only through him. (Acts 3:15) " So, based on this quote, you would agree then that becoming one of Jehovah's Witnesses is not necessary for salvation, correct? Or that if a JW disassociates himself or herself from organization but continues to believe in Christ, that one is still saved?

Second, the 4/1/1993 WT: "Yes, salvation is possible only by means of the shed blood of Jesus and by 'calling upon his name' in faith." Honestly, Barryrob, when was the last time you or another Witness you know literally called upon Jesus? Witnesses regularly call upon the name of "Jehovah," but not that of Jesus. And yet, the WT admits that salvation is only possible by addressing Jesus. What do you think the elders in your Kingdom Hall would do if you, the next time it is your turn to offer prayer, began with "Lord Jesus, we call upon you..." Or what would your elders do if they found out you were doing this in the privacy of your own home?

Consider John 5:22, 23: "The Father doesn't judge anyone, but he has made his Son the judge of everyone. The Father wants all people to honor the Son as much as they honor him. When anyone refuses to honor the Son, that is the same as refusing to honor the Father who sent him." (Contemporary English Version) Now, JWs believe that "the Father" is Jehovah. And the Bible says that Christians should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. Is this really the case among JWs? During the next few KH meetings or while you're out in field service, why not keep a tally of how many times the names "Jesus" and 'Jehovah" are mentioned. How about the number of times "Jesus' is mentioned in your song book, or in the pages of the WT? You might be surprised.

blessings,
Mark1 Then he or she is no longer a Jehovah's Witness as Jesus was and thus then not under the benefit of Jesus sacrifice.





2 Wrong! Every time we offer a prayer to Jehovah in Jesus name and close with Amen!




3 You are obviously not up to date with the whole theme of our Preaching which is God's Kingdom by Christ Jesus etc. or the contents of our publications called 'The Greatest Man Who Ever Lived' or 'Draw Close To Jehovah' which would address your last comment fully, I suggest you get copies and read them and become updated upon what we believe.

Jesus is my personal savour, leader and loving master upon whom I fully trust to bring me closer to his and my loving Father Jehovah and the only to have forgiveness my many sins and to teach and show me how to love properly and more fully God and man.



Barryrob

[CodePoet]

1 Then he or she is no longer a Jehovah's Witness as Jesus was and thus then not under the benefit of Jesus sacrifice. So, something more than merely accepting God's grace through Jesus is needed for salvation in JW theology — one must also be a "Jehovah's Witness" as well? Sorry, Barryrob... I don't see that requirement in the Bible. As I mentioned in my last post, those WT quotes you posted don't tell the whole story about the Watchtower's twisted soteriology.

2 Wrong! Every time we offer a prayer to Jehovah in Jesus name and close with Amen!
I see. You call Jesus your 'savior, leader and loving master,' but have you ever addressed him directly and asked Him to be those things to you?


3 You are obviously not up to date with the whole theme of our Preaching which is God's Kingdom by Christ Jesus etc. or the contents of our publications called 'The Greatest Man Who Ever Lived' or 'Draw Close To Jehovah' which would address your last comment fully, I suggest you get copies and read them and become updated upon what we believe. Are you telling me that the 'theme of your preaching' has changed recently? If so, when and why?


Jesus is my personal savour, leader and loving master upon whom I fully trust to bring me closer to his and my loving Father Jehovah and the only to have forgiveness my many sins and to teach and show me how to love properly and more fully God and man. Is Jesus your mediator? Based on your responses so far, it appears that "the organization" has usurped that role. I say this because you indicated that one will lose their salvation if they leave the organization.

Barryrob, Jesus invites you (all of us!) to come to him. Notice that he doesn't invite us to associate with any particular manmade organization:

"Come to me, all YOU who are toiling and loaded down, and I will refresh YOU. Take my yoke upon YOU and learn from me, for I am mild-tempered and lowly in heart, and YOU will find refreshment for YOUR souls. For my yoke is kindly and my load is light." ~ Matt. 11:28-30 NWT (emphasis mine)


blessings,
Mark

[Krusader]

A The common view of homosexuality and say women teaching in Church and

general respect for Christian ways was far more prevalent and respected then than they are today. It has been said the we now live in a Post Christian England (here I live).


B WT 1957 10/1 p. 589 Petition to Generalissimo Trujillo
We again respectfully call your attention to the instigation on the part of the Roman Catholic clergy behind all this religious persecution. On June 30 the Jesuit priest named Vazquez Sanz lectured over the radio station to start off the campaign of hate against Jehovah’s witnesses. The newspapers published this lecture in which this Jesuit called Jehovah’s witnesses Communists, haters of all order, disrespectful of laws of the Dominican Republic, and many other false things. Besides the newspapers, other prominent men in Santo Domingo also wrote like articles, until finally, by July 29, hundreds of inches of space had been used against Jehovah’s witnesses. Another Roman Catholic priest, named Robles Toledano, is also on record as having given a talk. In it he said Jehovah’s witnesses were a cancerous growth and had to be eradicated from the Dominican Republic.


C Persecution is a direct or indirect attack on us for our beliefs which can take many forms. It can be or it can be that they are just misguided etc..

D "all JWs to come to Jesus directly and experience God's saving grace" this is what the Watchtower has taught me for 30 yrs.
Just a few thoughts.



Barryrob

Barryrob, how can you honestly hide behind the banner of "persecution," when Rutherford in the same time period you mention was calling "religion, a snare and a racket." This was directed toward the Christian churches. (See Rutherford's book: "Religion.")

[Pilgrim]

It is a question you, me, anyone must judge for themselves.



*Become a Jehovah's Witnesses and find out for yourself!



Think! The time was the 30s when people where far more godly than today and JWs then did have a bad times in some places which got worse as the WW2 got closer due to our neutral stand, but the Clergy did not remove as they would have liked to.



Barryrob
Ahh yes, the golden time of the 30's with war in the air, Nazi mentality running amock, Jim crow and lynch mobs in the south and out in Utah, plural marriages and rum running in its hey day. What halcyion memories. Such godliness!

[Krusader]

Barryrob, as you well know, Jesus Christ is only the Mediator for those in the New Covenant, and that according to your own Organization. Since you, Barryrob, are not in the New Covenant, the only hope you have is to stay close to "Jehovah's Organization," and then you may live through Armageddon and on into the new system of things.

Thus, for you, "salvation" is living through Armageddon, and you obtain that by being obedient to the Society and doing the bidding of the remaining 144,000.

Jesus is your "mediator," only in a relative sense. He is the Mediator of the 144,000 who are changed to spirit-life in heaven. The 144,000 mediate for you!

See "Survival," pg. 65 and "Insight" Vol. 2, pg. 363 where the 144,000 are classified as mediators.

[barryrob]

A friend sent this to me the other day:"If the message the Jehovah's Witnesses are bringing to the people is true, then it is of greatest importance to mankind. If it is false, then it is the duty of the clergymen and others who support them to come boldly forward and plainly tell the people wherein the message is false." Golden Age, January 18, 1933 p.252


With this position in mind, why (he asks rhetorically) does the Watchtower Society promote its persecution complex among its members?


blessings,
Mark

Hi Codepoet

Just send e-mails to Crusader and ask him questions as he thinks he knows it all!
Barryrob

[Pilgrim]

Barryrob, as you well know, Jesus Christ is only the Mediator for those in the New Covenant, and that according to your own Organization. Since you, Barryrob, are not in the New Covenant, the only hope you have is to stay close to "Jehovah's Organization," and then you may live through Armageddon and on into the new system of things.

Thus, for you, "salvation" is living through Armageddon, and you obtain that by being obedient to the Society and doing the bidding of the remaining 144,000.

Jesus is your "mediator," only in a relative sense. He is the Mediator of the 144,000 who are changed to spirit-life in heaven. The 144,000 mediate for you!

See "Survival," pg. 65 and "Insight" Vol. 2, pg. 363 where the 144,000 are classified as mediators.
Point of clarification on a pet peeve of mine. Armaggedon is not an event, it is a place. It is from the Hebrew "Har Meggido" meaning "Mount Meggido." It's a mountain in Israel.

[Krusader]

Point of clarification on a pet peeve of mine. Armaggedon is not an event, it is a place. It is from the Hebrew "Har Meggido" meaning "Mount Meggido." It's a mountain in Israel.

Thanks, Pilgrim. Of course you are right. I was simply using the word in the same way JWs generally use it - meaning the last battle between the forces of Satan and God.

[Krusader]

Hi Codepoet

Just send e-mails to Crusader and ask him questions as he thinks he knows it all!
Barryrob

Oh, did you now? Interesting that I haven't gotten it. By the way change "he" to "she."

I surely don't know it all - but I do know Watchtower doctrine, Barryrob - as well as other forms of deception. You still haven't answered me about the spiritistic teachings of the Society. Oh, well -

[barryrob]

Oh, did you now? Interesting that I haven't gotten it. By the way change "he" to "she."

I surely don't know it all - but I do know Watchtower doctrine, Barryrob - as well as other forms of deception. You still haven't answered me about the spiritistic teachings of the Society. Oh, well -
As I said but "he" to "she" re:"spiritistic teachings of the Society" won't waist my time!
Barryrob

[barryrob]

Point of clarification on a pet peeve of mine. Armaggedon is not an event, it is a place. It is from the Hebrew "Har Meggido" meaning "Mount Meggido." It's a mountain in Israel.
The Armaggedon of Revelation is an event.
Barryrob

[Krusader]

As I said but "he" to "she" re:"spiritistic teachings of the Society" won't waist my time!
Barryrob
Oh, Barryrob, the reason you won't "waste your time," is that the spiritism taught in the book "Revelation," where it suggests that dead members of the 144,000 are communicating truths to the Society, is unanswerable. You just have to swallow the fact that your organization is advocating spiritism....and we all know the OT penalty for such!

[barryrob]

Oh, Barryrob, the reason you won't "waste your time," is that the spiritism taught in the book "Revelation," where it suggests that dead members of the 144,000 are communicating truths to the Society, is unanswerable. You just have to swallow the fact that your organization is advocating spiritism....and we all know the OT penalty for such!
Revelation 21:8
But as for the cowards and those without faith and those who are disgusting in their filth and murderers and fornicators and those practicing spiritism and idolaters and all the liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulphur. This means the second death."

[Krusader]

Revelation 21:8




But as for the cowards and those without faith and those who are disgusting in their filth and murderers and fornicators and those practicing spiritism and idolaters and all the liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulphur. This means the second death."



Exactly! So, doesn't that mean that the Watchtower's leadership, which advocates communication with the dead members of the 144,000, will be smelling of sulphur? Not, to mention, they are leading their poor "great crowd" class right down the rosey road to damnation by teaching them that spiritism is fine? How can you justify that, Barryrob?

[barryrob]

Exactly! So, doesn't that mean that the Watchtower's leadership, which advocates communication with the dead members of the 144,000, will be smelling of sulphur? Not, to mention, they are leading their poor "great crowd" class right down the rosey road to damnation by teaching them that spiritism is fine? How can you justify that, Barryrob?
So you don't pray to Jesus, right!

[Krusader]

So you don't pray to Jesus, right!
You ask me whether or not I pray to Jesus? What does that have to do with the spiritistic teachings of your organization? If I were you, I'd call upon Jesus' Name to rid your organization of the demonic influence apparently infesting it!

For there is no other Name given to man by which he must be saved - and that Name is Jesus! To that Name the demons bow, and from that Name they flee. Jesus said, "You will be my witnesses," - but you have demoted Jesus to a mere archangel and followed the false prophets of Watchtowerism.

By the way, I've known a lot of Witnesses - and one thing I've always noticed. Their prayers are formal and lifeless...almost mechanical. I suppose that's what they teach you down at the Hall, as you're memorizing the answers on the bottom of the Watchtower's pages!

[barryrob]

You ask me whether or not I pray to Jesus? What does that have to do with the spiritistic teachings of your organization? If I were you, I'd call upon Jesus' Name to rid your organization of the demonic influence apparently infesting it!

For there is no other Name given to man by which he must be saved - and that Name is Jesus! To that Name the demons bow, and from that Name they flee. Jesus said, "You will be my witnesses," - but you have demoted Jesus to a mere archangel and followed the false prophets of Watchtowerism.

By the way, I've known a lot of Witnesses - and one thing I've always noticed. Their prayers are formal and lifeless...almost mechanical. I suppose that's what they teach you down at the Hall, as you're memorizing the answers on the bottom of the Watchtower's pages!*
Did he not die and rise again to?

You pray to some one how was able to die, we pray to him who cannot die but gave Jesus his life back to him!-1 Timothy 1:17

Just because you know "a lot of Withesses" does not mean you understand what we think which your comment shows!

*Regardless of what you think they work!

Barryrob

[Krusader]

Did he not die and rise again to?

You pray to some one how was able to die, we pray to him who cannot die but gave Jesus his life back to him!-1 Timothy 1:17

Just because you know "a lot of Withesses" does not mean you understand what we think which your comment shows!

*Regardless of what you think they work!

BarryrobWho did Stephen pray to when he was being stoned, Barryrob? "And they went on stoning Stephen as he called upon the Lord and said, 'Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.' " (Acts 7:59, also Acts 9:14; Rom. 10:13).

Stephen prayed to the Lord Jesus, and even called upon the "Lord" (which according to the Watchtower should be rendered Jehovah - thus Stephen addressed Jesus as Jehovah) and said plainly "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit." If it was correct for Stephen, the protomartyr, to pray to Jesus as he was about to die, certainly we can pray to the Lord Jesus as well.

See also 1Cor. 1:1-2 with Psalm 116:4 where calling upon the name of the Lord is prayer and prayer is addressed to Jesus by the Corinthian Church.

And your silly statement about praying to the one who cannot die - thus this could not be Jesus, who died on the cross, shows a woeful ignorance of basic Christian doctrine. Do a little search on the hypostatic union!

[barryrob]

Exactly! So, doesn't that mean that the Watchtower's leadership, which advocates communication with the dead members of the 144,000, will be smelling of sulphur? Not, to mention, they are leading their poor "great crowd" class right down the rosey road to damnation by teaching them that spiritism is fine? How can you justify that, Barryrob?

You know as well as I do that "Spiritism" is related to practices that directly or indirectly get in touch with the only the Demons, the 144,000 are not Demons, thus your comment is rubbish.

Barryrob

[Sparko]

You know as well as I do that "Spiritism" is related to practices that directly or indirectly get in touch with the only the Demons, the 144,000 are not Demons, thus your comment is rubbish.

Barryrob

Uh, what about when Saul used the witch of Endor to raise the spirit of Samuel? HMMM? that was spiritism and it was wrong.

[barryrob]

Uh, what about when Saul used the witch of Endor to raise the spirit of Samuel? HMMM? that was spiritism and it was wrong.

Your poor grasp of scripture never cease to amaze me. Since when has God or God's faithful servants worked via Witchcraft or spiritusm?

Deuteronomy 18:10-13
There should not be found in you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, anyone who employs divination, a practicer of magic or anyone who looks for omens or a sorcerer, 11 or one who binds others with a spell or anyone who consults a spirit medium or a professional foreteller of events or anyone who inquires of the dead. 12 For everybody doing these things is something detestable to Jehovah, and on account of these detestable things Jehovah your God is driving them away from before you. 13 You should prove yourself faultless with Jehovah your God.

Thus it must have been a Demon the the Evil Witch contacted, not Samuel as the above shows it cannot of been of God or his servents!

Barryrob

[Sparko]

Your poor grasp of scripture never cease to amaze me. Since when has God or God's faithful servants worked via Witchcraft or spiritusm?

Deuteronomy 18:10-13
There should not be found in you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, anyone who employs divination, a practicer of magic or anyone who looks for omens or a sorcerer, 11 or one who binds others with a spell or anyone who consults a spirit medium or a professional foreteller of events or anyone who inquires of the dead. 12 For everybody doing these things is something detestable to Jehovah, and on account of these detestable things Jehovah your God is driving them away from before you. 13 You should prove yourself faultless with Jehovah your God.

Thus it must have been a Demon the the Evil Witch contacted, not Samuel as the above shows it cannot of been of God or his servents!

Barryrob


Uh, by going to the witch of Endor, Saul was showing himself NOT to be a faithful one of God. And go read any bible commentary (other than your JW ones) and you will see that it really WAS Samuel's spirit who came back. God allowed it to scare and chastise Saul.

Think barrrob. Can a demon speak in the name of Jehovah as this spirit did? Can a demon even utter the holy name?

And the witch said 1Sa 28:12 And the woman saw Samuel, and cried with a loud voice. And the woman spoke to Saul, saying, Why have you deceived me? For you are Saul!

She thought she would be bringing up a demon, and was surprised that it really WAS Samuel's spiriti!

[Krusader]

You know as well as I do that "Spiritism" is related to practices that directly or indirectly get in touch with the only the Demons, the 144,000 are not Demons, thus your comment is rubbish.

Barryrob

Barryrob: Deut. 18:11 condemns the sin of necromancy, or consultation with the dead. The Society has insinuated that the dead portion of the 144,000 may be directing the organization. This is nothing but plain necromancy. How can you be so blind?