New Heavens and New Earth

[Makarios]

It seems easier to explain the NHNE in terms of the Millennium than as a description of the eternal state because there is death (Isa 65:20) and children are born (Isa 65:23).

How do Amillennialists and Postmillennialists interpret the NHNE? What does this describe? When will it occur?

[Solly]

Do you mean Isaiah's embedded vision of the new age, encapsulated in that of the restoration of Israel back into her covenant privileges and blessings under God, in the land, or the fully developed vision of the new age in Revelation: and death shall be no more Rev 21.4

[spiritmech]

It seems easier to explain the NHNE in terms of the Millennium than as a description of the eternal state because there is death (Isa 65:20) and children are born (Isa 65:23).

How do Amillennialists and Postmillennialists interpret the NHNE? What does this describe? When will it occur?

Postmils and Amils believe this state is now. There is birth, there is death, and He reigns on His throne in heaven.
SM

[Solly]

Perhaps there is confusion of terms between the millennial/mediatorial kingdom, and the NHNE?

[Makarios]

Do you mean Isaiah's embedded vision of the new age, encapsulated in that of the restoration of Israel back into her covenant privileges and blessings under God, in the land, or the fully developed vision of the new age in Revelation: and death shall be no more Rev 21.4

Here I am specifically referring to the Isaiah passage.

[Makarios]

Postmils and Amils believe this state is now. There is birth, there is death, and He reigns on His throne in heaven.
SM

If so, how can they suggest the following has taken, or is now taking place: "Indeed, no one will die before the age of a hundred."

[spiritmech]

If so, how can they suggest the following has taken, or is now taking place: "Indeed, no one will die before the age of a hundred."

Well I forgot that some postmils believe that we're not yet in the millenium. But it still happens before the 2nd coming.

I'm not sure how other kinds of postmils work it out. I'm amil, so I guess we'll gradually get there or something.
SM

[Solly]

Here I am specifically referring to the Isaiah passage.

then it is immaterial, since the doctrine is not built on that alone, but culminates in Revelation, which is why I mentioned it. It's like asking why we need Christ, if the blood of bulls and goats was good enough for Moses.

[Makarios]

then it is immaterial, since the doctrine is not built on that alone, but culminates in Revelation, which is why I mentioned it. It's like asking why we need Christ, if the blood of bulls and goats was good enough for Moses.

Please explain, from an amil or postmil perspective, when it will be that people will not die before they are 100. This is clearly not referring to the present, and cannot be the eternal state either.

[Solly]

It's peotic metaphor makarios. Since Israel's life centred around living in the land, and not being dead - the state they were in metaphorically while in exile, cf Ezek 37, then to live to a great age was to be blessed by God. You are trying to make the text stand on it's hind legs, instead of recognising it for what it is. No more do we expect a real valley full of bones. Remember, Isaiah 40-66 is a vision, not a doctrinal letter, nor can you read that, without reference to the origin and development of the ideas.

This leaves the question open whether the passage promises these blessings literally, or depicts the final state by means of earthly analogies. If the conditions are literal, they will be those of the millennium, as in a straight reading of Rev. 20, where the resurrected saints appear to coexist with people of the present order, before the final judgment. Against this, however, is the sequence whereby the new creation (17–18) precedes these blessings here, but follows them in Rev. 21:1. For this reason it seems that we should take this passage as an analogy, and its allusions to the sinner (20; see the niv mg.) and the serpent (25) as promises of judgment and victory. The wicked will no longer flourish, nor the strong prey on the weak, nor the tempter escape his sentence (cf. v 25 with Gn. 3:14–15), in the perfect world to come. But all this is expressed freely, locally and pictorially, to kindle hope rather than feed curiosity. Notice finally the implication, by the allusion to 11:6–9, that this is brought to pass not by a bare creative fiat, but through the Messianic king.
Carson, D.A.; et al., The New Bible Commentary, (Downers Grove, Illinois: Inter-Varsity Press) 1994.

[Makarios]

It's peotic metaphor makarios. Since Israel's life centred around living in the land, and not being dead - the state they were in metaphorically while in exile, cf Ezek 37, then to live to a great age was to be blessed by God. You are trying to make the text stand on it's hind legs, instead of recognising it for what it is. No more do we expect a real valley full of bones. Remember, Isaiah 40-66 is a vision, not a doctrinal letter, nor can you read that, without reference to the origin and development of the ideas.

Ezekiel does not discuss the NHNE so I'm not sure how that passage informs this one in the way you suggest.

Do you have any evidence to suggest 2nd temple Jews understood this passage in the way you suggest? Do Amillenialists beleive the lion ate straw (even metaphorically) post-exile? If so, what is this a metaphor for? Peace? What peace did the 2nd temple Jews experience? Their history is one war followed by another.

[Hitch]

If so, how can they suggest the following has taken, or is now taking place: "Indeed, no one will die before the age of a hundred." Well the average life expectancy in thE US is far above what it was a century ago.

[Makarios]

Well the average life expectancy in thE US is far above what it was a century ago.

That is interesting.

[Makarios]

Ok, what is the deal? No one can explain this passage from an amillennial perspective?

[spiritmech]

Ok, what is the deal? No one can explain this passage from an amillennial perspective?

Solly/Ilm did. The NT reveals what was concealed in the OT. The concept of the new heavens and new earth were more fully fleshed out after Christ's first coming. Instead of it being just 1000 years, it is eternal.

SM

[Makarios]

Solly/Ilm did. The NT reveals what was concealed in the OT. The concept of the new heavens and new earth were more fully fleshed out after Christ's first coming. Instead of it being just 1000 years, it is eternal.

SM

No one has explained when it is (or was) that people will live to be 100 years old, or thought accursed. Solly just said it is a 'metaphor' and gave no reasons or explanations for believing it to be so. He answered none of my follow-up questions on this. That just doesn't cut it.

[Solly]

No one has explained when it is (or was) that people will live to be 100 years old, or thought accursed. Solly just said it is a 'metaphor' and gave no reasons or explanations for believing it to be so. He answered none of my follow-up questions on this. That just doesn't cut it.


The answer was given, you just commit the fallacy of 'looking for the answers that suit me'. you can't take isaiah on his own, and say, hey, i'm being literal here, so where are the lifespans, huh? You don't take the Bible more literally than it intends, and prophetic passages are usually poetry, therefore usually metaphorical, and therefore await further clarification from the NT, which is given in Revelation as i pointed out originally. if you don't like the answer, fine, but there it is, that's how we explain it. As it is, Revelation itself is also mostly imagery, and no one except Troy expects a literal city 1200 miles wide floating above the earth. the Bible usues the familiar to teach us the unfamiliar. for those of life spans about 40-50 years, 100 is a significant age in the context.

So tell me, when will a multi headed monster arise out of the Meditteranean and allow a scarlet woman to hitch a ride?

[Makarios]

The answer was given, you just commit the fallacy of 'looking for the answers that suit me'. you can't take isaiah on his own, and say, hey, i'm being literal here, so where are the lifespans, huh? You don't take the Bible more literally than it intends, and prophetic passages are usually poetry, therefore usually metaphorical, and therefore await further clarification from the NT, which is given in Revelation as i pointed out originally. if you don't like the answer, fine, but there it is, that's how we explain it. As it is, Revelation itself is also mostly imagery, and no one except Troy expects a literal city 1200 miles wide floating above the earth. the Bible usues the familiar to teach us the unfamiliar. for those of life spans about 40-50 years, 100 is a significant age in the context.

So tell me, when will a multi headed monster arise out of the Meditteranean and allow a scarlet woman to hitch a ride?

Solly, I am trying to understand your perspective, but your posts on this topic are nothing more than assertions- and vague ones at that. Just because the Bible has metaphors in it does not prove that this passage is figurative.

You answered none of my follow-up questions on this. Do you have any good basis for holding your position?

(hint: ridicule is no substitute for a decent argument)

[ross3421]

It seems easier to explain the NHNE in terms of the Millennium than as a description of the eternal state because there is death (Isa 65:20) and children are born (Isa 65:23).

How do Amillennialists and Postmillennialists interpret the NHNE? What does this describe? When will it occur?

Hi,

I do not get caught up in the classification of views just interpetation of scripture.

Clearly scripture shows the NHNE appearing at the second coming of Christ....

2pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Above the old is done away, a new must replace it..... Below I have included to show that the Day of the Lord yes it is the return of Christ.

The Day of the Lord

Acts 2:19,20 - "And I will show wonders in the heavens above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapor of smoke: the sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable Day of the Lord come".

For above we see it is "before" the Day of the Lord the sun is blackened and the moon turned to blood. Moreover, we see the sun blackened and the moon turned to blood during the Tribulation Period at the sixth seal Rev 6:12!
I Thess 5:1,2 - "But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the Day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night".

So when is the day our Lord returns as a thief in the night to kill and destroy? At the seventh vial at the end of the Great Tribulation, his second coming.

Rev 16:15-17 - "Behold, I come as a thief, blessed is he that watcheth, and keep his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. And he gathered them together into a place called Armageddon. And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air, and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying it is done".

Also we see in the sixth seal the old heaven and earth passing away. Note this prior to the supposed 1000 years mentioned later.

Re 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
Re 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
Re 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Re 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Re 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand ?

So if the old heaven and earth are done away at Christ's coming can a NHNE take 1000 years to replace it? No.

So the real question: is there a 1000 year period ? No.

Properly dividing Revelation

Most view the book of Revelation as a continous book to be read through chapters 1 to 22. This is error # 1. There is a division as John is told in chapter 10 to prophecy "again" but this time to a different people. The first being the church, the next to peoples, multitudes ect...

Most do not understand the writing style needed for John to be able to see multiple events and then write them down on paper. Error # 2. John then takes single events and may describe them from start to finish thus there is overlapping of events at times from chapter to chapter.

This understanding above leads us on the way to the correct interpetation of Revelation.

Compare the divisions Chapters 1-11 & 12-22

When compared striking simularities abound as they should if this is the same prophecy retold. There are 7 seals in the first will correlate to the 7 angels in chapter 14. 7 trumpets which are the same as the 7 vials on and on.

A "smoking gun" so to speak which also alerts us to this division is that we see at the sixth seal in chapter 7 Chist is about to return with as mentioned above the heavens fleeing, and the earth departing. Also the 7th trumpet mysteries are finished, Christ returns (third woe quickly chapter 11 and the appearence of the temple in heaven & and as the picture of the mighty angel chapter 10). Not to mention the signs of his return, hail, lightning, and so on.

Revelation Chapter 20

The all important 1000 year event. But when one closly examines these events in this chapter one should notice repeats. All of these events up to the description of the Great White Throne have occurred PRIOR to the end of the tribulation! Are we to say the following happen twice ?

Satan cast into Hell again
Satan ascends out of Hell again
Satan loosened for another little season
Another battle of that Great Day
Another demonic outpouring
Christ returns again (fire down from heaven)

No, as stated before understanding the writing style leads us to understand that John is describing the event of the Judgement whereby he states previous events.

The Great White Throne

Dispells the beliefs that there is a seperate judgement for the believers. At this judgement BOTH believer and unbeliever are judged whereby disproving that there is some 1000 years between judgements. Scripture does not support this gap between judgements and in several verses states both being judge. Of course with the believer first, then the wicked.

Though not in the attached, scripture is also clear that both the saved and unsaved are resurrected on the same day with no 1000 years between.

The most common mistake is to take "and there was found no place for them" and relate this to those being judged however it relate to THIS old heaven and earth in which the sentence it is located.

1000 years

After all the evidence provided with the attached the only conclusion is that this is a METAPHOR and not a defined time length. Peter aludes to this when he speaks of a 1000 years as a day "with the Lord". We also need to question if time is a deminsion in heaven.....

As with the 1000 years being a metaphor so is the reference in Is. 65:20, for if there were death in the eternal kingdom then God would have contradicted himself...

Re 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

In Christ, Mark.

[ross3421]

It seems easier to explain the NHNE in terms of the Millennium than as a description of the eternal state because there is death (Isa 65:20) and children are born (Isa 65:23).

How do Amillennialists and Postmillennialists interpret the NHNE? What does this describe? When will it occur?

Hi,

I do not get caught up in the classification of views just interpetation of scripture.

Clearly scripture shows the NHNE appearing at the second coming of Christ....

2pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Above the old is done away, a new must replace it..... Below I have included to show that the Day of the Lord yes it is the return of Christ.

The Day of the Lord

Acts 2:19,20 - "And I will show wonders in the heavens above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapor of smoke: the sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable Day of the Lord come".

For above we see it is "before" the Day of the Lord the sun is blackened and the moon turned to blood. Moreover, we see the sun blackened and the moon turned to blood during the Tribulation Period at the sixth seal Rev 6:12!
I Thess 5:1,2 - "But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the Day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night".

So when is the day our Lord returns as a thief in the night to kill and destroy? At the seventh vial at the end of the Great Tribulation, his second coming.

Rev 16:15-17 - "Behold, I come as a thief, blessed is he that watcheth, and keep his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. And he gathered them together into a place called Armageddon. And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air, and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying it is done".

Also we see in the sixth seal the old heaven and earth passing away. Note this prior to the supposed 1000 years mentioned later.

Re 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
Re 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
Re 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Re 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Re 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand ?

So if the old heaven and earth are done away at Christ's coming can a NHNE take 1000 years to replace it? No.

So the real question: is there a 1000 year period ? No.

Properly dividing Revelation

Most view the book of Revelation as a continous book to be read through chapters 1 to 22. This is error # 1. There is a division as John is told in chapter 10 to prophecy "again" but this time to a different people. The first being the church, the next to peoples, multitudes ect...

Most do not understand the writing style needed for John to be able to see multiple events and then write them down on paper. Error # 2. John then takes single events and may describe them from start to finish thus there is overlapping of events at times from chapter to chapter.

This understanding above leads us on the way to the correct interpetation of Revelation.

Compare the divisions Chapters 1-11 & 12-22

When compared striking simularities abound as they should if this is the same prophecy retold. There are 7 seals in the first will correlate to the 7 angels in chapter 14. 7 trumpets which are the same as the 7 vials on and on.

A "smoking gun" so to speak which also alerts us to this division is that we see at the sixth seal in chapter 7 Chist is about to return with as mentioned above the heavens fleeing, and the earth departing. Also the 7th trumpet mysteries are finished, Christ returns (third woe quickly chapter 11 and the appearence of the temple in heaven & and as the picture of the mighty angel chapter 10). Not to mention the signs of his return, hail, lightning, and so on.

Revelation Chapter 20

The all important 1000 year event. But when one closly examines these events in this chapter one should notice repeats. All of these events up to the description of the Great White Throne have occurred PRIOR to the end of the tribulation! Are we to say the following happen twice ?

Satan cast into Hell again
Satan ascends out of Hell again
Satan loosened for another little season
Another battle of that Great Day
Another demonic outpouring
Christ returns again (fire down from heaven)

No, as stated before understanding the writing style leads us to understand that John is describing the event of the Judgement whereby he states previous events.

The Great White Throne

Dispells the beliefs that there is a seperate judgement for the believers. At this judgement BOTH believer and unbeliever are judged whereby disproving that there is some 1000 years between judgements. Scripture does not support this gap between judgements and in several verses states both being judge. Of course with the believer first, then the wicked.

Though not in the attached, scripture is also clear that both the saved and unsaved are resurrected on the same day with no 1000 years between.

The most common mistake is to take "and there was found no place for them" and relate this to those being judged however it relate to THIS old heaven and earth in which the sentence it is located.

1000 years

After all the evidence provided with the attached the only conclusion is that this is a METAPHOR and not a defined time length. Peter aludes to this when he speaks of a 1000 years as a day "with the Lord". We also need to question if time is a deminsion in heaven.....

As with the 1000 years being a metaphor so is the reference in Is. 65:20, for if there were death in the eternal kingdom then God would have contradicted himself...

Re 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

In Christ, Mark.