Why should I be a futurist?

[Palinator]

Why should I be a futurist?

Can you convince me?

[eschaton]

Why should I be a futurist?

Can you convince me?


When considering the Bible's prophecies we should apply the test that the Bible itself gives for testing truthfulness of a prophet.

Deu18:22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.

So to see if any prophecy in the Bible has already been fulfilled we can check the pages of the Bible itself or we can see if the prophecy came to pass in history. If not fulfilled we may presume that the prophecy will be fulfilled in the future, or else that the Bible does not match its own standards. Being close only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades. If a true prophet speaks we expect it to be 100% accurate if it is from the God of the universe.

It's not really that simple though because prophecy is also a matter of interpretation. When Jesus says the stars will fall from heaven does He mean that will happen literally, or is he using figurative language that must be interpreted? Some people will insist that we must interpret that as literally as possible. They will say it must mean a meteor shower or something astronomical.

How do we interpret prophecy? In the OT dreams and visions were often the form that prophecies were given in. Pharoah's dream that was interpeted by Joseph or King Nebuchadnezzar's that was interpreted by Daniel come to mind. In the first case Joseph's interpretation was fulfilled within the pages of the Bible. In the second case, most Christians would agree that Daniel's interpretation was fulfilled within the annals of history. The understanding of the fulfillment of the prophecy depends on the context in which it was given. In Joseph's case we understand that its fulfillment is within the pages of the story. In Daniel's case it is believed to be talking about the historical setting and events in which Daniel lived and those events which were to follow in history.

So the interpretation of the prophecy depends on the context in which the prophecy is given. We may identify different contexts for different prophecies.

In the epistles, in what context were the apostles speaking? In my opinion it is some of the most literal language in the Bible. The epistles were sent to the churches as largely literal instructions, although they may also contain figurative language from other parts of the Bible. So when Paul describes the coming Day of the Lord and the events that precede it In 2nd Thess 2, I understand it in a somewhat literal fashion. I also see parrallels to what he is saying in other parts of the Bible, such as Revelation, Daniel, and the Gospels. When I look at those events and compare them to history I don't find anything that matches them exactly. Maybe if they were hand grenades they would come within 50 feet though. When I check what earlier Christians believed I see the large majority would agree with me they hadn't been fulfilled yet. Therefore I am a futurist and I think you should be too.

[Amazing Rando]

In the epistles, in what context were the apostles speaking? In my opinion it is some of the most literal language in the Bible. The epistles were sent to the churches as largely literal instructions, although they may also contain figurative language from other parts of the Bible. So when Paul describes the coming Day of the Lord and the events that precede it In 2nd Thess 2, I understand it in a somewhat literal fashion. I also see parrallels to what he is saying in other parts of the Bible, such as Revelation, Daniel, and the Gospels. When I look at those events and compare them to history I don't find anything that matches them exactly. Maybe if they were hand grenades they would come within 50 feet though. When I check what earlier Christians believed I see the large majority would agree with me they hadn't been fulfilled yet. Therefore I am a futurist and I think you should be too.

Okay, here's a question- if you acknowledge that Daniel and Joseph's prophecies and visions were fulfilled even though they were filled with extremely figurative language, what makes you think the NT prophecies are any different?

[eschaton]

Okay, here's a question- if you acknowledge that Daniel and Joseph's prophecies and visions were fulfilled even though they were filled with extremely figurative language, what makes you think the NT prophecies are any different?

Because I think the epistles are more or less literal. I believe the OT is largely allegorical.

[Amazing Rando]

Because I think the epistles are more or less literal. I believe the OT is largely allegorical.

What leads you to believe this?

[TCapp]

I'm a gave-up-trying-to-figure-it-out-and-I-don't-really-care-anyway-because-whatever-will happen-will-happenist.

[Amazing Rando]

I'm a gave-up-trying-to-figure-it-out-and-I-don't-really-care-anyway-because-whatever-will happen-will-happenist.

That's a good attitude. All we need to know about the end is this: Jesus wins. Everything else is just details! :wink:

[eschaton]

What leads you to believe this?


Basically because I believe Jesus.

The early church looked for allegorical meanings in the scripture.
This wasn't a new idea at the time. Paul and the other apostles were
familiar with midrash of the first century. The type of midrash such as Philo's
in first century Judaism led to other than literal interpretations.

The difference between Christian and Jewish interpretation was the
Christian belief that the Old Testament was about Jesus Christ. This
belief has its basis in the New Testament.

2Cor3:14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth
the same veil untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which
veil is done away in Christ.

Xref: 2Co 4:3,4 Ps 69:23 Isa 6:10 26:10-12 42:18-20 44:18 56:10 59:10
Jer 5:21 Eze 12:2 Mt 6:23 13:11,13-15 Joh 9:39-41 12:40 Ac 28:26,27
Ro 11:7-10,25 2Co 4:6 Isa 25:7 Mt 16:17 Lu 18:31-34 24:25-27,44-46
Joh 8:12 Joh 12:46 Ac 16:14 26:18 Eph 1:17-20

If Paul were talking about history or science one would have to
wonder how Christ opened their eyes to the history and science in
scripture. Instead Paul was talking about the spiritual message of
Christ, which was a secret from the foundation of the world.

Xref: Mat 13:35 13:14 21:4,5 Ps 78:2 49:4 Isa 42:9 Am 3:7 Lu 10:14 Ro
16:25,26 1Co 2:7 Eph 3:5,9 Col 1:25,26 2Ti 1:9,10 Tit 1:2,3 Heb 1:1
1Pe 1:11,12 Mt 25:34 Joh 17:24 Ac 15:18 1Pe 1:20,21 Rev 13:8 17:8

Jesus taught that the scriptures were about Him.

John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have
eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

Xref: Joh 5:32,36 1:45 De 18:15,18 Ac 26:22,23,27 Ro 1:2 1Pe 1:10,11
Rev 19:10

Even though the disciples had followed and listened to Him they
didn't realy understand until Jesus was resurrected.

Luke2:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake
unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be
fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the
prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand
the scriptures,

Xref: Job 33:16 Ps 119:18 Isa 29:10-12,18,19 Ac 16:14 26:18 2Co 3:14-
18 4:4-6 Eph 5:14 Rev 3:7

So the Christological hermeneutic of the early church was based on
the writings found in the New Testament and perhaps to
some degree on midrash interpretation of first century Judaism.

The Christolgical understanding of scriptures was the preferred
method of interpretation through the time of Augustine. The church
became very protective of the scriptures and discouraged the average
person from Bible study for fear of incorrect interpretation and
heresy. Then the age of rationalists came along led by Erasmus.
Since then hermeneutics have focused on the literal. Language and
history have become the tools for interpretation rather than the
message of Christ.

You might get a better idea by reading the epistle of Barnabas, Philocalia, or De Doctrina Christiana.

http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-01/anf01-41.htm#P3130_520749

http://www.ccel.org/p/pearse/morefathers/origen_philocalia_02_text.htm

http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/NPNF1-02/npnf1-02-31.htm#P4596_2533990

[Terral]

Hi Joan:
Joan >> Why should I be a futurist?
Christ gave numerous prophecies of FUTURE events in Matthew 24 that have yet to be fulfilled. The Preterists here say that ‘this generation’ (Matt. 24:34) really means ‘your generation’ living 2000 years ago. However, those are the same people who gave us our New Testament books of Scripture. Where are the letters from the people of that generation that describe Christ’s coming on the clouds at the end of the age fulfilling the prophecies of Matt. 24:3-31? No such letters exist, because none of those things were fulfilled 2000 years ago. The Preterists here must point to the same unfulfilled prophecies of Matthew 24 and simply make claims that all of those things were fulfilled. The generation living to see ‘all’ of those signs (Matt. 24:4-29) will also live to see “Your coming” and the “end of the age” (Matt. 24:3, 30+31). Christ taught in signs and parables (Matt. 24:32-36), because “The Father Alone” (vs. 36) knows when those ‘end of the age’ events take place.

Zechariah says that the Lord’s coming to this same “Mount of Olives’ (Zech. 14:3+4) will include that mountain being ‘split’ in two so that half moves to the north and the other to the south. Everyone can see that the “Mount of Olives” is still in one piece, which means that fulfillment of Zechariah’s prophecy is still future.

John describes the ‘end of the age’ coming when heaven and earth pass away (Matt. 24:35) in Rev. 20:11-21:1. Peter describes the same thing in 2Pet. 3:7-12. Take a good look around and tell us if the earth and heavens have passed away, or is this the same earth that Christ walked upon while giving these ‘end of the age’ prophecies?

Paul says that the ‘man of sin’ and ‘son of destruction’ (2Thes. 2:3) will take his seat in the Temple of God displaying himself as being God. 2Thes. 2:4. John also describes this beast being worshipped by the whole world. Rev. 13:8-15. All on earth shall be forced to receive that mark of the beast in order to have the right to buy and sell. Rev. 13:16+17. Nobody in earth history has possessed the power and authority to fulfill all of the ‘end of the age’ prophecies of Scripture, which means that they are all fulfilled in the future.
Joan >> Can you convince me?
Of course not. We can lead you to water, but the desire to drink comes from within.

In Christ,

Terral

[Hitch]

Terral you forgot to say the Gospel hanst been preached to the whole world yet... LOL

[Bill the Cat]

Why should I be a futurist?

Cause I am :grin:

Can you convince me?

Nope. Each of us must make our mind up on which view is more plausible. For me, futurism is it.

[Xavier]

Cause I am :grin:

He gives the best reason...

Nope. Each of us must make our mind up on which view is more plausible. For me, futurism is it.

...then shatters it with his "logic". :b_evil:

[Bill the Cat]

:glare: :brood:

Lucky I don't have an :xavier: smash.... oh well, this'll have to do... :jaltussmash:

[jesterbr549]

Why should I be a futurist? Can you convince me?

Cause if you refuse to even try to understand the prophecies that God gave to prepare his people before hand for the tribulation that they might endure (if they are left behind at the pretrib rapture), then you won't have to worry about them burning you at the stake this time.

They'll just cut your blond head off.

Clear it up any for ya?

[studyhound]

Cause if you refuse to even try to understand the prophecies that God gave to prepare his people before hand for the tribulation that they might endure (if they are left behind at the pretrib rapture), then you won't have to worry about them burning you at the stake this time.

They'll just cut your blond head off.

Clear it up any for ya?

Fear tactics - maybe the best chance some futurist have at convincing people. Albeit sad and pathetic :ahem:

:sh:

[jesterbr549]

Fear tactics - maybe the best chance some futurist have at convincing people. Albeit sad and pathetic.

I wasn't talking to you.

But since you want the attention : sad and pathetic are the Laodaceans ("wretched, miserable, poor, blind and naked") who get left behind at the Rapture to have their heads cut off in the trib. Complacent in their attitude they were just interested in playing the country club game called church.

"No persecution from without and no opposition from within" they became lukewarm - good for nothing.

"Any branch that abides not in me is cut off and cast into the fire."

Sad and pathetic?

[studyhound]

I wasn't talking to you.

Well, welcome to the wonderful world of public forums.

But since you want the attention : sad and pathetic are the Laodaceans ("wretched, miserable, poor, blind and naked") who get left behind at the Rapture to have their heads cut off in the trib. Complacent in their attitude they were just interested in playing the country club game called church.

:ahem: "Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering. I sense much fear in you."

"No persecution from without and no opposition from within" they became lukewarm - good for nothing.

:eh: Try re-reading the it was because of their lack of works, no because of their lack of persecution, or their lack of opposition.

Also the phrase "because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth." is a phrase that the first century occupants of the city of Laodica. (Also the "wretched, miserable, poor, blind and naked" can only be properly understood in the context of the first century city and their location and life and their economy, but hey why let anything like history, sociology, and facts get in the way.)


"Any branch that abides not in me is cut off and cast into the fire."
Look out for those sheers.....**snip snip**


Sad and pathetic? Yup, even double so after reading your hack job interpertation of the seven churches.

:sh:

[Jaltus]

Because of Leviticus. The promises to national Israel have not been fulfilled.

Also, I would say because of John (the gospel), the book of Revelation, and the inherent tension between I and II Thessalonians.

[{Undersecretary of Internal Affairs}]

The Preterists here say that ‘this generation’ (Matt. 24:34) really means ‘your generation’ living 2000 years ago. ... The Preterists here must point to the same unfulfilled prophecies of Matthew 24 and simply make claims that all of those things were fulfilled. The generation living to see ‘all’ of those signs (Matt. 24:4-29) will also live to see “Your coming” and the “end of the age” (Matt. 24:3, 30+31).Terral: :lmbo: I just had to respond to this. My response: See, I can assert too. "The Futurists here (esp. Terral) say that 'this generation' (Matt. 24:34) really means 'a generation living 2000 years in the future'. ... The Preterists (OTOH) point to these prophecies of Matthew 24 and explain how all of those things were fulfilled. The generation living to see all of those signs (Matt. 24:4-29) also lived to see His coming and the end of the age (Matt. 24:3, 30+31)."

I'm sorry Terral, but you've said all this a hundred times before, and yet your arguments haven't changed at all despite the fact that they have been refuted numerous times by various TWeb members. Do you actually read the responses preterists write to you?

Why should I be a futurist? Can you convince me?
Joan: Why would I want to convince you of that? Futurists are evil. :tongue: Seriously, there are decent arguments on both sides (if you read the right posters :doh:), but I don't myself find futurism fully convincing.

[studyhound]

Terral: :lmbo: I just had to respond to this. My response: See, I can assert too. "The Futurists here (esp. Terral) say that 'this generation' (Matt. 24:34) really means 'a generation living 2000 years in the future'. ... The Preterists (OTOH) point to these prophecies of Matthew 24 and explain how all of those things were fulfilled. The generation living to see all of those signs (Matt. 24:4-29) also lived to see His coming and the end of the age (Matt. 24:3, 30+31)."

I'm sorry Terral, but you've said all this a hundred times before, and yet your arguments haven't changed at all despite the fact that they have been refuted numerous times by various TWeb members. Do you actually read the responses preterists write to you?

:hehe:

[Chief of Staff Lizard]

Terral: :lmbo: I just had to respond to this. My response: See, I can assert too. "The Futurists here (esp. Terral) say that 'this generation' (Matt. 24:34) really means 'a generation living 2000 years in the future'. ... The Preterists (OTOH) point to these prophecies of Matthew 24 and explain how all of those things were fulfilled. The generation living to see all of those signs (Matt. 24:4-29) also lived to see His coming and the end of the age (Matt. 24:3, 30+31)."

I'm sorry Terral, but you've said all this a hundred times before, and yet your arguments haven't changed at all despite the fact that they have been refuted numerous times by various TWeb members. Do you actually read the responses preterists write to you?

Man I got a serious case of Deja Vu reading that post. :dizzy:

[jesterbr549]

Well, welcome to the wonderful world of public forums.

Where it is expected that people employ their brain before they engage their mouth.

"Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering. I sense much fear in you."

Well, now everyone on this public forum knows where you get your couch potato theology from.

Try re-reading the it was because of their lack of works, no because of their lack of persecution, or their lack of opposition.

Put that remote down and go take a course in Cause and Effect.

Also the phrase "because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth" is a phrase that the first century occupants of the city of Laodica.

"If the salt has lost its savor it is thenceforth good for nothing but to be cast out and trodden under foot of men." Try that one.

Also the "wretched, miserable, poor, blind and naked" can only be properly understood in the context of the first century city and their location and life and their economy, but hey why let anything like history, sociology, and facts get in the way.

Want to make a bet.

Look out for those sheers. Yup, even double so after reading your hack job interpertation of the seven churches.

This from person who gets there theology from a bad hollywood take pf an Asian religion. I consider that a compliament. However, lets just do this. The Lord Y'shua bar Y'hova himself judge between me and thee.

[studyhound]

Where it is expected that people employ their brain before they engage their mouth. well I wont hold it against you.



Well, now everyone on this public forum knows where you get your couch potato theology from.
And now everyone knows your a judgement troll, and have a theology of fear and trolling :troll:



Put that remote down and go take a course in Cause and Effect.
Pick up a book and try reading, it might help.


"If the salt has lost its savor it is thenceforth good for nothing but to be cast out and trodden under foot of men." Try that one. :ahem:


Want to make a bet. sure, I'll take that bet. :wink:


This from person who gets there theology from a bad hollywood take pf an Asian religion.
Huh considering you know the referance do you get your theology from the same source?

I consider that a compliament. However, lets just do this. The Lord Y'shua bar Y'hova himself judge between me and thee.

Well, unlike you, I am not a judgment troll who questions a person who salvation? Again you=:troll:

:sh:

[jesterbr549]

well I wont hold it against you.
Case in point

And now everyone knows your a judgement troll, and have a theology of fear and trolling

I addressed the subject of this thread by responding to the person who posted the question and you exposed your own ignorance and goal by your reply which did not apply to the subject of this thread.

Pick up a book and try reading, it might help.

You first

sure, I'll take that bet.

Fine. For those who want to know what the bet is :

Also the "wretched, miserable, poor, blind and naked" can only be properly understood in the context of the first century city and their location and life and their economy.
Want to make a bet.

The study puppy says that the only way to understand the conditions of the Church of Laodacea is to understand the environment of the city at that time. This, however, is ignorance for during the tribulation, those rich Laodaceans will know exactly what it means to be "wretched, miserable, poor, blind and naked." In fact, the very fact that study hound says that we can not understand it is, in fact, proof that she is just like the Laodaceans who believed that they were "rich and increased with goods and in need of nothing." So, little doggy, hang around a little bit longer and you will have first hand knowledge of what a "sad and pathetic" individual you really are.

Huh considering you know the referance do you get your theology from the same source?

I am not the one that used it as a reference in a Theology Forum.

Well, unlike you, I am not a judgment troll who questions a person who salvation? Again you

I have not questioned anyones salvation on this forum as of yet, only their personal sanctification and thus anyone who can interupt the Theological conversation of two other people only to quote Asian Philosophy, obviously, needs to get a life and stop trolling.

[Amazing Rando]

I envision a Gym debate between studyhound and jester on this. Hound, you oughta challenge him! :grin:

[studyhound]

I addressed the subject of this thread by responding to the person who posted the question and you exposed your own ignorance and goal by your reply which did not apply to the subject of this thread.
Again welcome to public forums were people will respond to what you said and TRY and dialog with you.


You first
I already have and that is why I make the statement I did.


The study puppy

Cant go too long for resorting to personal attacks, huh, Very telling.

says that the only way to understand the conditions of the Church of Laodacea is to understand the environment of the city at that time.




Yup. And the phrases Jesus used to describe them were specific to their location and their lifestyle.







In fact, the very fact that study hound says that we can not understand it is

Nice how you misconstrue my point by saying “we can not understand it”. My point was that the language and the terms were only properly understood by those receiving it. You see the first rule of understanding the bible is to see it as those receiving it would have.




in fact, proof that she??she?? umm well there you are in need of a lesson on how to understand gender here at TWEB.




is just like the Laodaceans who believed that they were "rich and increased with goods and in need of nothing."

now not only do you not know my gender, you dont know what I think, so




So, little doggy, hang around a little bit longer and you will have first hand knowledge of what a "sad and pathetic" individual you really are.

ahh rather than deal with my argument you are reduced to name calling and Ad hom attacks. Very telling.


:sh:

[jesterbr549]

Again welcome to public forums were people will respond to what you said and TRY and dialog with you.

Calling a newbie to the forum "sad and pathetic" in your first words hardly qualifies as dialog but more like kindergarden trolling

I already have and that is why I make the statement I did.

I guess you need to go read a book on english grammar.

Cant go too long for resorting to personal attacks, huh, Very telling.

Just returning the favor

Nice how you misconstrue my point by saying “we can not understand it”. My point was that the language and the terms were only properly understood by those receiving it. You see the first rule of understanding the bible is to see it as those receiving it would have.

Nice of you to change the rules of the game when it suits you. If your last statement above is correct than why did the spirit say, "Let those who have ears, hear what the Spirit says to the Churchs." I assume you have ears? Most dogs do.

??she?? umm well there you are in need of a lesson on how to understand gender here at TWEB.

50/50 chance - oh well.

now not only do you not know my gender, you dont know what I think, so

Nor do I want to

ahh rather than deal with my argument you are reduced to name calling and Ad hom attacks. Very telling.

Yes it is. I treat people the same way they treat me (or so I have been told) and it was you who started the "Ad Hom" attacks in your very first statement to me. And, exactly what part of your "argument" did I ignore, may I ask?

[cbro]

but hey why let anything like history, sociology, and facts get in the way
:sh:
Many do it because you are the 'best' example of everything.