Question on Shabbatai Zevi

[Theoferrum]

I had a question for any Jewish readers of this forum.

According to "Who's Who in Jewish History" by Joan Comay, the individual above name Zevi claimed, literally, to be, "The Only Begotten Son of God, Shabbatai Zevi" and he actually gained a large Messianic following throughout the Jewish community in Europe and over the world.

http://thebookofdaniel.lbgo.com/daniel11:14.html

Could you please explain to me why some of you might follow a 'messiah' who claimed to be the Son of God, when you reject Y'shua's claim to this same relationship?

Just wondering...

[Sacrificial Ram]

I had a question for any Jewish readers of this forum.

According to "Who's Who in Jewish History" by Joan Comay, the individual above name Zevi claimed, literally, to be, "The Only Begotten Son of God, Shabbatai Zevi" and he actually gained a large Messianic following throughout the Jewish community in Europe and over the world.

http://thebookofdaniel.lbgo.com/daniel11:14.html

Could you please explain to me why some of you might follow a 'messiah' who claimed to be the Son of God, when you reject Y'shua's claim to this same relationship?

Just wondering...

I personally would be wondering why they would be ignoring Psalm 2, the Psalm of David, in which is became the begotten son of God.

[Ami Hertz]

jesterbr549,

That's exactly the point, isn't it? Throughout history, there have been plenty of false messiahs. Yes, they were very popular and had large followings. But each and every time, they have led their followers astray. Tzvi was just one more in the long line of "messiahs". Heck, since 1994, we've got yet another messiah. :eek:

What's more, the whole notion of a messiah is, are you ready for this?, *gulp*, unbiblical! (I mean the Hebrew Bible of course.) The worldview presented in the Hebrew Bible simply does not have a messiah in it, just as it doesn't have salvation, damnation, or even souls! I know it might be a surprise for you, but it's true. Yes, the Hebrew Bible is big enough to find out-of-context verses to "prove" almost anything. But when things are read in context, it's a different story.

It's true, the word messiah does appear in the Hebrew Bible a few times. But there, it has a meaning totally different from the modern meaning of the word. In the Hebrew Bible, messiah is an official leader, such as a king or a high priest, nothing more, nothing less.

Sacrificial Ram,

See
http://faithstrengthened.org/FSpart2chapter68.html

[InChristAlways]

jesterbr549,

That's exactly the point, isn't it? Throughout history, there have been plenty of false messiahs. Yes, they were very popular and had large followings. But each and every time, they have led their followers astray. Tzvi was just one more in the long line of "messiahs". Heck, since 1994, we've got yet another messiah. :eek:

What's more, the whole notion of a messiah is, are you ready for this?, *gulp*, unbiblical! (I mean the Hebrew Bible of course.) The worldview presented in the Hebrew Bible simply does not have a messiah in it, just as it doesn't have salvation, damnation, or even souls! I know it might be a surprise for you, but it's true. Yes, the Hebrew Bible is big enough to find out-of-context verses to "prove" almost anything. But when things are read in context, it's a different story.

It's true, the word messiah does appear in the Hebrew Bible a few times. But there, it has a meaning totally different from the modern meaning of the word. In the Hebrew Bible, messiah is an official leader, such as a king or a high priest, nothing more, nothing less.

Sacrificial Ram,

See
http://faithstrengthened.org/FSpart2chapter68.htmlWouldn't a more appropriate world be a savior and redeemer, chief priest, "annointed one", and their God? Did Jesus accomplish what God sent Him for? Would the jews realize recognize a real messiah if he did show up?
A "king" in the general sense would not be able to forgive Israel and Judah's sins and he would also be a "sheperd" for the people to replace the corrupt sheperds that were leading God's Lost Sheep astray.
To the lost sheep, Jesus was indeed as a King to them which brought the Word of righteousness and love, something most of the jewish rulers in that age were not, otherwise why would God have put a curse on them in Malachi? It appears the leaders of His people were God's enemies, not the gentile nations themselves.
Jeremiah 50:6 " My people have been lost sheep. Their shepherds have led them astray; They have turned them away [on] the mountains. They have gone from mountain to hill; They have forgotten their resting place. God even used gentile nations as His servant to do His will. Even in the book of revelation it shows God using 10 kings as His servant to utterly burn and destroy a Harlot/Great City, which I and others believe is first century Jerusalem.

2 chrono 35:20 After all this, when Josiah had prepared the temple, Necho king of Egypt came up to fight against Carchemish by the Euphrates; and Josiah went out against him. 21 But he sent messengers to him, saying, "What have I to do with you, king of Judah? [I have] not [come] against you this day, but against the house with which I have war; for God commanded me to make haste. Refrain [from meddling with] God, who [is] with me, lest He destroy you." Even christians today are awaiting on a return of the "messiah" today, as they feel Jesus didn't accomplish everthing the first time, so in essence they are just like the jews awaiting on their Savior and Redeemer. Either He came or He didn't, but Jesus did come to me so I really don't expect Him again just from the way I view scripture as fulfilled.

Isaiah 49:1 "Listen, O coastlands, to Me, And take heed, you peoples from afar! The LORD has called Me from the womb; From the matrix of My mother He has made mention of My name. 2 And He has made My mouth like a sharp sword; In the shadow of His hand He has hidden Me, And made Me a polished shaft; In His quiver He has hidden Me." 3 "And He said to me, 'You [are] My servant, O Israel, In whom I will be glorified.' 4 Then I said, 'I have labored in vain, I have spent my strength for nothing and in vain; Yet surely my just reward with the LORD, And my work with my God.' " [i]5 " And now the LORD says, Who formed Me from the womb [to be] His Servant, To bring Jacob back to Him, So that Israel is gathered to Him ( For I shall be glorious in the eyes of the LORD, And My God shall be My strength), 6 Indeed He says, 'It is too small a thing that You should be My Servant To raise up the tribes of Jacob, And to restore the preserved ones of Israel; I will also give You as a light to the Gentiles, That You should be My salvation to the ends of the earth.' "

[Theoferrum]

That's exactly the point, isn't it? Throughout history, there have been plenty of false messiahs. Yes, they were very popular and had large followings. But each and every time, they have led their followers astray. Tzvi was just one more in the long line of "messiahs". Heck, since 1994, we've got yet another messiah.

Actually, that is not the point. Is it just coincidence that the Jews have been in exile since the days of Y'shua? If he was a false messiah, as you claim, than God would have rewarded the nation for dealing with him in accordance with the Torah.


What's more, the whole notion of a messiah is, are you ready for this?, *gulp*, unbiblical!

Not to disappoint you or anything, but I have already heard that statement before, without supporting Scriptures. Let me quess. You put more emphasis on the Kabbalah than you do on the Inspired Word of God. "To the Light and to the Testimony - if they speak not according to these words it is because their is no Light in them."


Yes, the Hebrew Bible is big enough to find out-of-context verses to "prove" almost anything. But when things are read in context, it's a different story.

"The same judgment you judge others with, you are guilty of yourself." Please supply verses taken in context which show that the World View teaching of Messiah is wrong, which teaching, by the way, has been accepted by the Jewish Rabbim and Christian Theologians for thousands of years.


It's true, the word messiah does appear in the Hebrew Bible a few times. But there, it has a meaning totally different from the modern meaning of the word. In the Hebrew Bible, messiah is an official leader, such as a king or a high priest, nothing more, nothing less.

Well, thank you for that very candid admission. So, isn't it the 'job' of a 'king' to go to war to protect that nation if it is necessary? Isn't it the 'job' of the 'king' to appoint rulers over his 'kingdom' ? Isn't it the 'job' of the 'king' to rid his kingdom of all those things that offend, and to establish a peaceful rule over his territory?


See
http://faithstrengthened.org/FSpart2chapter68.html

See

http://tenlosttribes.lbgo.com/index1.html

[Ami Hertz]

Actually, that is not the point. Is it just coincidence that the Jews have been in exile since the days of Y'shua? If he was a false messiah, as you claim, than God would have rewarded the nation for dealing with him in accordance with the Torah.

1. The man, if he ever even existed, died in 33 CE. The exile started in either 70 CE or 135 CE, depending on how you see things. Both dates are long after his death.

2. The exile began coming to an end in 1948, without any messiahs.


Not to disappoint you or anything, but I have already heard that statement before, without supporting Scriptures. Let me quess. You put more emphasis on the Kabbalah than you do on the Inspired Word of God. "To the Light and to the Testimony - if they speak not according to these words it is because their is no Light in them."

1. Nope, you guessed wrong, sorry.

2. You are asking me to provide scriptural evidence that something does not exist. How about we do it the other way around, you provide evidence that it exists. Or, if you like, first prove that green aliens from Mars do not exist.


"The same judgment you judge others with, you are guilty of yourself." Please supply verses taken in context which show that the World View teaching of Messiah is wrong, which teaching, by the way, has been accepted by the Jewish Rabbim and Christian Theologians for thousands of years.

The Rabbis have accepted the teaching, in my humble opinion, under foreign influence. As a result of them accepting the teaching, Jewish history is plagued with countless false messiahs, with all the sad consequences.


Well, thank you for that very candid admission. So, isn't it the 'job' of a 'king' to go to war to protect that nation if it is necessary? Isn't it the 'job' of the 'king' to appoint rulers over his 'kingdom' ? Isn't it the 'job' of the 'king' to rid his kingdom of all those things that offend, and to establish a peaceful rule over his territory?

What admission? The meaning of the word has changed dramatically. Thus, the use of the word messiah in the Hebrew Bible has nothing to do with the modern notion of a messiah.


See

http://tenlosttribes.lbgo.com/index1.html

What does this have to do with anything?

[Theoferrum]

1. The man, if he ever even existed, died in 33 CE. The exile started in either 70 CE or 135 CE, depending on how you see things. Both dates are long after his death.

Compared to 2,000 years, forty years is hardly "long" after his death. As far as whether or not he existed, to me, is similar to those people who deny the holocaust happened. History itself testifies to its occurance, but there are those who are so opposed to the Jewish race that they will ignore the facts. For instance, you utilize the term CE for Common Era which Era is figured from the birth of Y'shua. Name one person that has had his birth figured on the Gentile calender for 2000 years - and he just happens to be Jewish? Most Christians have never heard of Shabatta Tzvi or Bar Chochab or any of the other claimants to the position, and yet this lone Jew has spread the Torah througout the entire Gentile world - whether they all practice it or not. This is exactly what is predicted of the Messiah in the Old Testament.


2. The exile began coming to an end in 1948, without any messiahs.

That is because the Messiah can not make eliyah to a country that doesn't exist, whether it be his first or second.



2. You are asking me to provide scriptural evidence that something does not exist. How about we do it the other way around, you provide evidence that it exists. Or, if you like, first prove that green aliens from Mars do not exist.

The burdon of proof lies with the challenger. The teaching of the Messiah has been drawn from the Jewish Scriptures before the days of Y'shua. Messiah means annointed and, as you stated, is reserved for Priests and Kings. This latter is specficially through the Davidic Monarchy, which Y'shua was from. You neglected to answer my questions concerning the role of the King in the life of the nation.


The Rabbis have accepted the teaching, in my humble opinion, under foreign influence. As a result of them accepting the teaching, Jewish history is plagued with countless false messiahs, with all the sad consequences.

What foreign influence effected the teaching of the coming Messiah during the days of the Second Temple which belief, more or less, is the same as that of the Messianic Teaching today in some Jewish circles. I understand your view that the false messiahs have had sad consequences for your people however, that is no reason to discard the teaching if it is Scriptural which many Rabbi and Christian Scholars state.


What admission? The meaning of the word has changed dramatically. Thus, the use of the word messiah in the Hebrew Bible has nothing to do with the modern notion of a messiah.

Your admission that the term messiah is used of kings. Forgetting what the majority of Christians understand the term to be, the Jewish definition is unchanged. It means a King to rule the nation from the loins of David who will, if necessary, defend the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic. The Scriptural use of the term, when a literal interpretation of the Word is utilized, has not changed at all.


What does this have to do with anything?

Just returning the "additional reading" link that you provided.

[mitzi]

I had a question for any Jewish readers of this forum.

According to "Who's Who in Jewish History" by Joan Comay, the individual above name Zevi claimed, literally, to be, "The Only Begotten Son of God, Shabbatai Zevi" and he actually gained a large Messianic following throughout the Jewish community in Europe and over the world.

http://thebookofdaniel.lbgo.com/daniel11:14.html

Could you please explain to me why some of you might follow a 'messiah' who claimed to be the Son of God, when you reject Y'shua's claim to this same relationship?

Just wondering...


Very good question. From some of the resources that I had found they state:

The Jewish belief that the Messiah's reign lies in the future has long distinguished Jews from their Christian neighbors who believe, of course, that the Messiah came two thousand years ago in the person of Jesus. The most basic reason for the Jewish denial of the messianic claims made on Jesus' behalf is that he did not usher in world peace, as Isaiah had prophesied: "And nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore" (Isaiah 2:4). In addition, Jesus did not help bring about Jewish political sovereignty for the Jews or protection from their enemies.

A century after Jesus, large numbers of Palestinian Jews followed the wouldbe Messiah, Simon BarKokhba, in a revolt against the Romans. The results were catastrophic, and the Jews suffered a devastating defeat. In 1665-1666, large segments of world Jewry believed that Shabbetai Zvi, a Turkish Jew, was the Messiah, and confidently waited for Turkey's sultan to deliver Palestine to him. Instead, the sultan threatened Shabbetai with execution and the "Messiah" saved his life by converting to Islam.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/messiah.html

Both were a disappoint to the Jewish people. Bar-Kochba didn't turn out to be a disaster; he just didn't accomplish the goal.

[Goose]

I had a question for any Jewish readers of this forum.

According to "Who's Who in Jewish History" by Joan Comay, the individual above name Zevi claimed, literally, to be, "The Only Begotten Son of God, Shabbatai Zevi" and he actually gained a large Messianic following throughout the Jewish community in Europe and over the world.

http://thebookofdaniel.lbgo.com/daniel11:14.html

Could you please explain to me why some of you might follow a 'messiah' who claimed to be the Son of God, when you reject Y'shua's claim to this same relationship?

Just wondering...
..because It's all hind-sight. It's obvious that if your Messiah was Jewish, fulfilled some prophecies, and existed in the 1st Century, then Jews to some number would of followed him then. It's also obvious that Zevi existed and Jews followed him. But this is all hind-sight.

Now, with all that said, do you see Jews today following Zevi? No, you don't. Why then would you see Jews today following the Christian Messiah if there aren't any Jews today following Zevi? (at least sane ones)

[MuggleOrSquib]

Actually, that is not the point. Is it just coincidence that the Jews have been in exile since the days of Y'shua? If he was a false messiah, as you claim, than God would have rewarded the nation for dealing with him in accordance with the Torah.

The Babylonian and Persian exiles, which ended during the last century, date back to the Babylonian conquest of Israel.
On the other hand, the great exile in the Roman Empire (135 C.E.) dates from the Bar Kokhba Rebellion. Shim'on Bar Kokhba claimed to be haMeshiach, and many, including Rabbi Aqiva, followed him.

I think there may be a confusion in the OP. While the Jewish community was very divided on the issue of Shabtai Tzvi prior to his conversion to Islam, there are probably fewer new Jewish converts joining the Donmeh (the followers of Shabtai Tzvi) than there are joining churches. For the Jewish community as a whole, as far as I, a gentile Christian, can tell, the issue of the various past claimants to being Messiah is closed. For the average Jew, neither Jesus of Nazareth, nor Shim'on Bar Kokhba, nor Abulafia, nor Shabtai Tzvi, nor Jakob Frank, nor Rabbi Kook, nor Rebbe Menachem Mendel Schneersohn, is the Messiah.

Be Well,
Bob Griffin

[Krusader]

Very good question. From some of the resources that I had found they state:

The Jewish belief that the Messiah's reign lies in the future has long distinguished Jews from their Christian neighbors who believe, of course, that the Messiah came two thousand years ago in the person of Jesus. The most basic reason for the Jewish denial of the messianic claims made on Jesus' behalf is that he did not usher in world peace, as Isaiah had prophesied: "And nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore" (Isaiah 2:4). In addition, Jesus did not help bring about Jewish political sovereignty for the Jews or protection from their enemies.



Mitzi, if the above statement about the Jews rejecting Christ because he did not usher in world peace is correct, then why do you have thousands of Lubavitchers proclaiming Schneerson as the Messiah - unless I'm mistaken, Schneerson hasn't ushered in world peace has he?

By the way, notice that Isaiah 2:1-4 is dealing with the last days. This does not preclude the possibility of the Messiah having come once, and coming again to fulfill these vss. in His Messianic reign.