PDA

View Full Version : The Acid Test.



37818
01-03-2015, 02:37 PM
"Did King David lose his salvation while in adultery and murder and BEFORE he repented - yes or no?"

Now I answered the question no. So I failed this test.

Two reasons I answered no. One, the holy scripture states, ". . . the Spirit of the LORD came upon David from that day forward." And second, David did not ask that the God's spirit be returned to him, but rather, ". . . take not thy holy spirit from me."

If the question was could David have lost his salvation while in adultery and murder having NOT repented. I would have to answer in that case, yes. But that is not the history.

The Acid Test is a concoction of the hyper-Arminianism holiness preacher Dan Corner. Here (http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/images/acid-test.pdf)

KingsGambit
01-03-2015, 03:09 PM
We don't have an exact set of criterion for what would have saved people in the OT so I don't think there's any way to accurately answer this question without speculating.

I am Arminian like Corner and agree with his general stance against easy-believism, but he is way over the top in a number of ways.

Cow Poke
01-03-2015, 03:27 PM
Often I hear his "return unto me the joy of my salvation" used in a sense that he had lost his salvation, but as KG pointed out, we really don't have a full understanding of what "salvation" was in the OT, other than "faith". I think he had lost the JOY of his salvation, not necessarily the salvation - whatever that entails.

I know a lot of Christians who appear to have lost the "joy" of their salvation.

37818
01-03-2015, 03:33 PM
We don't have an exact set of criterion for what would have saved people in the OT so I don't think there's any way to accurately answer this question without speculating.

I am Arminian like Corner and agree with his general stance against easy-believism, but he is way over the top in a number of ways.I believe in easy believism (Matthew 11:28-30). That it is God who does the saving and God how does the keeping. So if I'm wrong about eternal security of the believer. I am still right that it is God who does the saving. We do not save ourselves. While we are self willed beings (having what we call free will), we need God to save us, because we cannot save ourselves.

I think it is worthy of discussion. To maybe understand and acknowledge views we disagree with. It dos not have to be heated debate. Though some cannot avoid it.

Leonhard
01-03-2015, 03:37 PM
The Catholic Church holds that mortal sin kills the soul by depriving a person of the grace needed for salvation, and it also holds that all the patriarchs in the Old Testament are now in Heaven.

The reason is that David likely had what's called perfect contrition for his sins. That means that he was sorry for having committed them (insofar as he knew of them), and repented of them seeking to live a life free of them, all out of love for God rather than fear of God's righteous judgments. This suffices to obtain the graces that would ordinarily only have been available to them in the yearly Passover sacrifice, or the Sacrament of Penance available now.

37818
01-03-2015, 03:37 PM
Often I hear his "return unto me the joy of my salvation" used in a sense that he had lost his salvation, but as KG pointed out, we really don't have a full understanding of what "salvation" was in the OT, other than "faith". I think he had lost the JOY of his salvation, not necessarily the salvation - whatever that entails.

I know a lot of Christians who appear to have lost the "joy" of their salvation.Some of us, do have opinions on this. I do. I believe King David was saved, but not in that time born again, not yet possessing eternal life as post Pentecost Christians do. My view.

Cow Poke
01-03-2015, 03:37 PM
I believe in easy believism (Matthew 11:28-30). That it is God who does the saving and God how does the keeping. So if I'm wrong about eternal security of the believer. I am still right that it is God who does the saving. We do not save ourselves. While we are self willed beings (having what we call free will), we need God to save us, because we cannot save ourselves.

I think it is worthy of discussion. To maybe understand and acknowledge views we disagree with. It dos not have to be heated debate. Though some cannot avoid it.

But it's like somebody offering you a very valuable gift -- you have to be willing to receive it.

Leonhard
01-03-2015, 03:39 PM
Some of us, do have opinions on this. I do. I believe King David was saved, but not in that time born again, not yet possessing eternal life as post Pentecost Christians do. My view.

Wouldn't this contradict Jesus saying that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were all alive? Or the appearances of Moses and Elias during the Transfiguration?

37818
01-03-2015, 03:46 PM
The Catholic Church holds both that mortal sin kills the soul and deprives a person of the grace needed for salvation, and it also holds that all the patriarchs in the Old Testament are now in Heaven.

The reason is that David likely had what's called perfect contrition for his sins. That means that he was sorry for having committed them (insofar as he knew of them), and repented of them seeking to live a life free of them, all out of love for God rather than fear of God's righteous judgments. This suffices to obtain the graces that would ordinarily only have been available to them in the yearly Passover sacrifice, or the Sacrament of Penance available now.Those are other nuances in differences in our faith groups understandings. Dan Corner is a former Catholic BTW.

Protestants refer to the two Christian observances as sacraments. From my baptist perspective, there are no sacraments as such. Also there are free will baptists who hold to an Arminianism view point.

KingsGambit
01-03-2015, 03:55 PM
I believe in easy believism (Matthew 11:28-30). That it is God who does the saving and God how does the keeping. So if I'm wrong about eternal security of the believer. I am still right that it is God who does the saving. We do not save ourselves. While we are self willed beings (having what we call free will), we need God to save us, because we cannot save ourselves.

I think it is worthy of discussion. To maybe understand and acknowledge views we disagree with. It dos not have to be heated debate. Though some cannot avoid it.

I'd be interested in discussing this and seeing if we can sharpen iron with iron.

Pentecost
01-03-2015, 03:57 PM
I would say no, but I take the author's point that holy living and living out holiness is vital for Christians, we are set apart and should look it.

37818
01-03-2015, 03:59 PM
Wouldn't this contradict Jesus saying that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were all alive? Or the appearances of Moses and Elias during the Transfiguration?Yes, one can understand it that way. I do not see it that way, as being contradictory. I'm looking at it from the view of possessing eternal life so to go into heaven (2 Corinthians 5:8) after leaving the body, as opposed to going to the nether world, the realm of the dead, sheol, even in its upper compartment (Psalm 86:13; Luke 16:19-31 as being an actual event, Deuteronomy 32:22, the upper compartment then where paradise was Luke 23:43 where Jesus also went in those three days).

37818
01-03-2015, 04:04 PM
But it's like somebody offering you a very valuable gift -- you have to be willing to receive it.That is a common Christian understanding. And salvation is that type of gift. I am of the opinion that the reason persons do not accept this gift, they really do no understand it (2 Corinthians 4:3). This would include apparent former professing Christians. Again my view.

Soyeong
01-03-2015, 04:09 PM
Salvation is not something that comes and goes each time you sin and are forgiven, but rather it depends on whether you name is in the Lamb's Book of Life.

37818
01-03-2015, 04:14 PM
I'd be interested in discussing this and seeing if we can sharpen iron with iron.
Is there a particular facet of Arminianism - Calvinism - Fullerism - etc. That you would like to compare? I do not hold the Arminianism nor the Calvinism view. I believe in total depravity of man (Romans 3:11). In conditional election. Unmerited election, the election being wholly God's. I believe in resistible grace. Universe purchase of all men by the payment Christ made on the cross. And that God keeps those whom He saves. My understanding, my view.

So where would you like to go with this? Or do you have another issue having to do with this of more interest?

37818
01-03-2015, 04:19 PM
Salvation is not something that comes and goes each time you sin and are forgiven, but rather it depends on whether you name is in the Lamb's Book of Life.Well, not all those who hold the Arminianism view would agree. I for one, believe by virtue of Christ dying for all, everyone's name starts out in the book of life. (Not that everyone is going to be saved.) My understand, one has to overcome the world, through faith in God's Christ, to seal one's name in His book. My understanding, my view.

Leonhard
01-03-2015, 04:26 PM
Yes, one can understand it that way. I do not see it that way, as being contradictory. I'm looking at it from the view of possessing eternal life so to go into heaven (2 Corinthians 5:8) after leaving the body, as opposed to going to the nether world, the realm of the dead, sheol, even in its upper compartment (Psalm 86:13; Luke 16:19-31 as being an actual event, Deuteronomy 32:22, the upper compartment then where paradise was Luke 23:43 where Jesus also went in those three days).

Ah I thought you had denied that the OT Saints eventually went to Heaven.

Cow Poke
01-03-2015, 04:27 PM
Ah I thought you had denied that the OT Saints eventually went to Heaven.

That would be very problematic, given Hebrews 11. :smile:

37818
01-03-2015, 04:31 PM
I would say no, but I take the author's point that holy living and living out holiness is vital for Christians, we are set apart and should look it.I do believe without holiness no one will see God (Hebrews 12:14). So we need salvation which only Christ can give us (2 Corinthians 5:17,,21). And then how can we persuade those yet outside the faith?

Obsidian
01-03-2015, 04:33 PM
This suffices to obtain the graces that would ordinarily only have been available to them in the yearly Passover sacrifice, or the Sacrament of Penance available now.

The Passover did not generate spiritual salvation for people.

Hebrews 10:4
For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

37818
01-03-2015, 04:40 PM
Ah I thought you had denied that the OT Saints eventually went to Heaven.I believe after Jesus. ascended to heaven, after those 40 days after the resurrection, all the OT believers, where at that time taken to heaven to be with Christ (Ephesians 4:8-10). And 10 days latter poured out the Holy Spirit upon His church He is building (Acts 2:, Matthew 16:18).

Leonhard
01-03-2015, 04:40 PM
The Passover did not generate spiritual salvation for people.

Hebrews 10:4
For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

I agree, that their sacrifices did not in any way redeem the sins of Israel. They were forgiven by the grace obtained by Christ on the Cross, but the way they got access to this grace, was during the renewing of the Covenant at the Passover Feast, which had its peak in a sacrifice and the high priest entering the Holiest of Holies to pray on the people of Israel. That's as much as how I understand how the Hebrew got redeemed.

Obsidian
01-03-2015, 04:46 PM
Paul specifically teaches that David was saved apart from the law, so this theory cannot work.

Romans 4
6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, 7 saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. 8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin. 9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness. 10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.

The only way it could work would be if you said that David got saved by keeping the Passover, regardless of whether he was circumcised. That itself would be dubious. But it is especially dubious because only circumcised people were allowed to keep the Passover.

Exodus 12:48
And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the Lord, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof.

So David was not saved by circumcision or the Passover (God's laws). And people today are not saved by penance or confession (Rome's laws).

37818
01-03-2015, 04:52 PM
Not that I agree. Pentance (repentance) and confession in the RCC are for the Catholic Christian. Not the non-Christian. Not in order to become a Christian.

In my view repentance precedes the faith (Mark 1;15).

Leonhard
01-03-2015, 04:57 PM
The only way it could work would be if you said that David got saved by keeping the Passover

This would be a false presumption, I didn't say that David got saved by keeping the Passover, but by having perfect contrition.

Also I as a Catholic do not believe that the initial act of Justification is achieved by the works of men, but is always a gift of grace by God. It leads ultimately to repentance and baptism, or repentance and the desire for baptism (in as much as the person knows that they must have it). Its not alone though, as its also clear that baptized, believing Christians don't necessarily get to Heaven, but must display acts of work, otherwise their faith is dead in them.


And people today are not saved by penance or confession (Rome's laws).

Just a small correction, confession is just one means to the Sacrament of Penance, which can be bestowed by a priest in other circumstances. Its just that private confession is the ordinary means of obtaining the sacrament.

Cow Poke
01-03-2015, 04:59 PM
Just a small correction, confession is just one means to the Sacrament of Penance, which can be bestowed by a priest in other circumstances. Its just that private confession is the ordinary means of obtaining the sacrament.

I don't think we need "priests" like the Catholic church uses. There is one God, and one mediator between God and man (http://biblehub.com/1_timothy/2-5.htm), and that's Christ Jesus.

Leonhard
01-03-2015, 05:13 PM
I don't think we need "priests" like the Catholic church uses. There is one God, and one mediator between God and man (http://biblehub.com/1_timothy/2-5.htm), and that's Christ Jesus.

And yet 1 Timothy 2:1-3 Paul asks Christians to intercede in prayer on behalf of the civil authorities, saying that this is very pleasing in the eyes of God. The Catholic Church in no way disputes that its Christ's work alone that reconciles the world to the Father. The question isn't about that, the question is a matter of the authority that Christ has bestowed on the Church to carry out His mission, how we participate in God's graces and the sacraments that have been instated.

The Apostles were clearly given the power to forgive sins. When they pronounced someone forgiven, that would be loosed in Heaven. And whatever they bound believers to, would be similarly bound in Heaven; The authority to forgive, and the authority to teach.

You'll be hardpressed to find a Church Father who did not believe that this authority was passed down to the bishops.

The rituals surrounding these sacraments eventually became what you see today, containing neither more nor less than what is needed. You approach the priest (who by the bishop, in succession with Apostles has granted to the priest the authority to forgive sins). You're blessed, you tell what mortal sins you have committed, showing the appropriate contrition, he judges whether your contrition is sufficient, gives you a penance for your sins and absolves you. In the act of absolving you, its Christ who forgives you. The priest acts merely as an instrument in the role of the sacrament, making visible something that would otherwise be invisible and internal.

Christ chose it to be this way.

Leonhard
01-03-2015, 05:15 PM
The wording of poll is a bit odd, because if you mean whether he lost his salvation the answer is no... ultimately he was saved. If you mean "If David died immediately after the crimes he committed would he be damned?" I think the answer is undeniably, yes.

37818
01-03-2015, 05:17 PM
This would be a false presumption, I didn't say that David got saved by keeping the Passover, but by having perfect contrition.

Also I as a Catholic do not believe that the initial act of Justification is achieved by the works of men, but is always a gift of grace by God. It leads ultimately to repentance and baptism, or repentance and the desire for baptism (in as much as the person knows that they must have it). Its not alone though, as its also clear that baptized, believing Christians don't necessarily get to Heaven, but must display acts of work, otherwise their faith is dead in them.

Just a small correction, confession is just one means to the Sacrament of Penance, which can be bestowed by a priest in other circumstances. Its just that private confession is the ordinary means of obtaining the sacrament.

". . . Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, [Saying], Blessed [are] they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. . . ." -- Romans 4:6, 7.

The Protestant - Catholic understanding on this is different.

37818
01-03-2015, 05:19 PM
The wording of poll is a bit odd, because if you mean whether he lost his salvation the answer is no... ultimately he was saved. If you mean "If David died immediately after the crimes he committed would he be damned?" I think the answer is undeniably, yes.The full question is in the first post. The poll app would not allow the full question length.

Leonhard
01-03-2015, 05:20 PM
". . . Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, [Saying], Blessed [are] they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. . . ." -- Romans 4:6, 7.

The Protestant - Catholic understanding on this is different.

The Catholic (and presumably some other denominations) would mean that he repented of what he did and so was restored to righteousness, others might mean that he sinned gravely but it never affected his righteousness.

Cow Poke
01-03-2015, 05:23 PM
And yet 1 Timothy 2:1-3 Paul asks Christians to intercede in prayer on behalf of the civil authorities, saying that this is very pleasing in the eyes of God. The Catholic Church in no way disputes that its Christ's work alone that reconciles the world to the Father. The question isn't about that, the question is a matter of the authority that Christ has bestowed on the Church to carry out His mission, how we participate in God's graces and the sacraments that have been instated.

The Apostles were clearly given the power to forgive sins. When they pronounced someone forgiven, that would be loosed in Heaven. And whatever they bound believers to, would be similarly bound in Heaven; The authority to forgive, and the authority to teach.

You'll be hardpressed to find a Church Father who did not believe that this authority was passed down to the bishops.

The rituals surrounding these sacraments eventually became what you see today, containing neither more nor less than what is needed. You approach the priest (who by the bishop, in succession with Apostles has granted to the priest the authority to forgive sins). You're blessed, you tell what mortal sins you have committed, showing the appropriate contrition, he judges whether your contrition is sufficient, gives you a penance for your sins and absolves you. In the act of absolving you, its Christ who forgives you. The priest acts merely as an instrument in the role of the sacrament, making visible something that would otherwise be invisible and internal.

Christ chose it to be this way.

Some how, I have managed to be a Christian for over 40 years without confessing to an earthly priest.
“Ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvelous light.”
I Peter 2:9

Believers are all equal to one another in Christ (Galatians 3:26-28). There is only one High Priest, that is Jesus Christ (Hebrews 7:23-8:13).

But this is probably a derail of this thread. :shrug:

Pentecost
01-03-2015, 05:24 PM
I do believe without holiness no one will see God (Hebrews 12:14). So we need salvation which only Christ can give us (2 Corinthians 5:17,,21). And then how can we persuade those yet outside the faith? But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or outsider enters, he is convicted by all, he is called to account by all, the secrets of his heart are disclosed, and so, falling on his face, he will worship God and declare that God is really among you. (*1 Corinthians‬ *14‬:*24-25‬ ESV)

Edit: If you didn't want a Pentecostal answer don't ask someone named "Pentecost" with an avatar representing the Baptism with the Holy Spirit, or a quote referring to it. :smug:

37818
01-03-2015, 05:30 PM
And yet 1 Timothy 2:1-3 Paul asks Christians to intercede in prayer on behalf of the civil authorities, saying that this is very pleasing in the eyes of God. The Catholic Church in no way disputes that its Christ's work alone that reconciles the world to the Father. The question isn't about that, the question is a matter of the authority that Christ has bestowed on the Church to carry out His mission, how we participate in God's graces and the sacraments that have been instated.

The Apostles were clearly given the power to forgive sins. When they pronounced someone forgiven, that would be loosed in Heaven. And whatever they bound believers to, would be similarly bound in Heaven; The authority to forgive, and the authority to teach.

You'll be hardpressed to find a Church Father who did not believe that this authority was passed down to the bishops.

The rituals surrounding these sacraments eventually became what you see today, containing neither more nor less than what is needed. You approach the priest (who by the bishop, in succession with Apostles has granted to the priest the authority to forgive sins). You're blessed, you tell what mortal sins you have committed, showing the appropriate contrition, he judges whether your contrition is sufficient, gives you a penance for your sins and absolves you. In the act of absolving you, its Christ who forgives you. The priest acts merely as an instrument in the role of the sacrament, making visible something that would otherwise be invisible and internal.

Christ chose it to be this way.

There is the non-Catholic view of the priesthood of believers (1 Peter 2:5). It is the view of some non-Catholic Christians, such as my self, we all have the authority to explain who are now saved (Ephesians 2:8) and who do not yet have their sins forgiven (John 20:23, Acts 1:8).

Leonhard
01-03-2015, 05:31 PM
Some how, I have managed to be a Christian for over 40 years without confessing to an earthly priest.
“Ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvelous light.”
I Peter 2:9

Believers are all equal to one another in Christ (Galatians 3:26-28). There is only one High Priest, that is Jesus Christ (Hebrews 7:23-8:13).

[b]But this is probably a derail of this thread./b] :shrug:

Yup, I won't pick up these points for that reason. Reminds me that I need to read Hebrews again. :smile:

37818
01-03-2015, 05:36 PM
But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or outsider enters, he is convicted by all, he is called to account by all, the secrets of his heart are disclosed, and so, falling on his face, he will worship God and declare that God is really among you. (*1 Corinthians‬ *14‬:*24-25‬ ESV)

Edit: If you didn't want a Pentecostal answer don't ask someone named "Pentecost" with an avatar representing the Baptism with the Holy Spirit, or a quote referring to it. :smug:

Well two things. One all prophecy (Revelation 19:10) of God must be heeded (Matthew 4:4). And I believe John the Apostle was the last church Apostle and prophet. But that is another discussion, for another thread. Your answer is welcome BTW.

Pentecost
01-03-2015, 05:41 PM
Well two things. One all prophecy (Revelation 19:10) of God must be heeded (Matthew 4:4). And I believe John the Apostle was the last church Apostle and prophet. But that is another discussion, for another thread. Your answer is welcome BTW. I knew it was a subject we disagreed on, and my edit was only meant as a joke, God bless you, I will not derail your thread. :)

Obsidian
01-03-2015, 05:42 PM
It is the view of some non-Catholic Christians, such as my self, we all have the authority to explain who are now saved (Ephesians 2:8) and who do not yet have their sins forgiven (John 20:23, Acts 1:8).

More generally, I think it just refers to the Christian's duty to lead people to God as an offering.

Isaiah 66:19-21
And I will set a sign among them, and I will send those that escape of them unto the nations, to Tarshish, Pul, and Lud, that draw the bow, to Tubal, and Javan, to the isles afar off, that have not heard my fame, neither have seen my glory; and they shall declare my glory among the Gentiles. And they shall bring all your brethren for an offering unto the Lord out of all nations upon horses, and in chariots, and in litters, and upon mules, and upon swift beasts, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, saith the Lord, as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the Lord. And I will also take of them for priests and for Levites, saith the Lord.

Romans 12:1
I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

37818
01-03-2015, 05:50 PM
I knew it was a subject we disagreed on, and my edit was only meant as a joke, God bless you, I will not derail your thread. :)If any of the gifts of the Spirit which Christ gave His church is relevant to this thread, it is fair game. I believe in all the gifts Christ gave to His church. (I'm convince some of them [3 not 4] are no longer available being spoken gifts.)