Christadelphianism and Punishment of the Wicked

[Piebald]

This is an argument that I've recently constructed, I was wondering if I could get any comments or constructive criticism? :smile:

In order for one to pay for their crimes one must exist. You cannot punish something that doesn't exist.

1. As long as one is alive, one is not paying the eternal punishment for sin (annihilation)

Christadelphian quotes:

"Death is a punishment for sin"

"It is clear then not only why man dies but why he must die. God is just and His justice cannot permit sinners to live for ever"


2. When one ceases to be alive, one ceases to exist

Christadelphian quotes:

"Man is therefore a dying creature - he returns to dust. His soul, life or disposition ceases to exist - it perishes in the ground."

"Death is the end of life, not the gateway to eternity"


3. Something which does not exist, cannot be punished

Where is there room for the punishment that God says he will give those who refuse to repent?

Consider "the rich man" (of Jesus' story, the Rich Man and Lazarus) who lived in luxury (he had the "good things" while he was alive) and sin (he needed to repent). He would live his whole life in pleasure, probably with the self-deluded view that he was doing nothing wrong, and probably thought that he merited an afterlife.

While he was dying he was probably comforted by this thought. But then after a relatively short amount of suffering (if any at all) during the throws of death, he simply ceases to exist. He never gets punished for any of the things that he did." } This is completely contrary to the biblical data which affirms punishment of the wicked:


Matthew 25:46
"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

1 Thessalonians 4:6
and that in this matter no one should wrong his brother or take advantage of him. The Lord will punish men for all such sins, as we have already told you and warned you.

Jude 1:7
In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.


Look at the whole world's sinners, most of whom believe they are going to heaven. Assuming they are not saved, after a life of sin are they punished? No, they simply live a life of sin and relative joy and are extinguished.


Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die!


Is this really comparable to what God says the fate of the wicked is in the Bible?


Matthew 18

"Then the master called the servant in. 'You wicked servant,' he said, 'I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to. Shouldn't you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?' In anger his master turned him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed.

Revelation 21:8

But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars-their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."

Matthew 13:42

They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Luke 13:28

"There will be weeping there, and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves thrown out. }


To Sum:

1. In order for X to be punished, X must exist

2. X does not exist

3. Therefore X is not being punished


The Christadelphian view of the annihilation of the wicked is in conflict with the Bible's description of their eternal punishment.

[seer]

*** Note from Hamster: Seer, I made a terrible mistake -- I accidently hit "edit" instead of "Reply" - I am so sorry! Do you think you could repeat your post?

[Piebald]

First Seer, I want to say that I am sincerely sorry for accidently erasing your post. I hit "edit" rather than "quote"

Too Embarrasing. :frown:

Anyways, I don't think eternality is even that nescessary to the thrust of my argument which rests on the premise that "In order to punish something, it must exist".. since no one ever experiences death (-- in the Christadelphian sense, death is ceasing to exist entirely), no one ever experiences punishment.

I could also go into the fact that you can't resurrect something that ceases to exist (only re-create it), but that's probably another topic for another thread.

Are you Christadelphian, Seer?

[seer]

Anyways, I don't think eternality is even that nescessary to the thrust of my argument which rests on the premise that "In order to punish something, it must exist".. since no one ever experiences death (-- in the Christadelphian sense, death is ceasing to exist entirely), no one ever experiences punishment.

So giving a man the death penalty is not punishment? And when God kills a man, is that not punishment? And is not that death eternal? What you are saying is that the wicked have eternal life.

Are you Christadelphian, Seer?

No,not at all. But many Christians believe in annihilation, like the christian scholar John Stott or these folks:

http://www.amazingfacts.org/items/read_library.asp?KBID=1750&tSelSec=Pocket


I would also point you to the greek in the Matthew quote:

"Punishment" here is the greek "kolasis" which comes from kolazo, which literally means to prune or cut off:

2849 kolazo {kol-ad'-zo}
from kolos (dwarf); TDNT - 3:814,451; v

AV - punish 2; 2

1) to lop or prune, as trees and wings
2) to curb, check, restrain
3) to chastise, correct, punishment
4) to cause to be punished

Now those who believe in annihilation would tend to the idea of the wicked being cut off - not eternal conscious torment. And the Universalist would see the greek as meaning to correct.

[Piebald]

giving a man the death penalty is not punishment?

The Penalty (the act of killing him) happens while he exists. You can't punish something that doesn't exist, right?

No,not at all. But many Christians believe in annihilation, like the christian scholar John Stott or these folks:

Thank you for the link - do they also deny the universal resurrection of sinner and saint alike? The Christadelphians deny the resurrection of sinners (or a sub-group of sinners, those who have never heard the gospel), so when one of these sinners reaches the end of his life, he is extinguished.

1. While a Sinner is Alive, he has not paid the price for Sin (Death)
2. When a sinner is not Alive, he does not exist

So where is there room for punishment?

Punishment" here is the greek "kolasis" which comes from kolazo, which literally means to prune or cut

Yes, that's one of it's meanings, and it's other is to chastise, correct. I am not sure that appealing to semantic range does much damage to the argument.

Keep in mind that the difference between you and the Christadelphians is that as a Universalist you believe that everyone will be resurrected at some point after death. Christadelphians deny this:


Is there any scripture that seems to teach universal resurrection?

Yes, and if you do not know how to rightly divide the word of truth, your preacher will convince you that all who have died will be resurrected.

http://www.christadelphian-advocate.org/books/Key/part1.html

[seer]

The Penalty (the act of killing him) happens while he exists. You can't punish something that doesn't exist, right?

Correct. Most Christians who believe annihilation, believe in Universal resurrection. Then a period of punishment, but that period need not be eternal.

1. While a Sinner is Alive, he has not paid the price for Sin (Death)
2. When a sinner is not Alive, he does not exist

So where is there room for punishment?

Well I do not want to speak from them,but one could say that death it's self is punishment. They have received their penalty - death.

[dizzle]

I believe Hank Haneegraaf has constructed a very good philosphical and biblical case against annihilationism in his book Resurrection.

From what I understand though CD's believe that there is no resurrection of the damned. At least that is what I gleaned from Ev's comment to me (and I do not begrudge him this comment at all) that Trinitarianism was earning me a one-way ticket to the grave without hope of a resurrection. So, that seems directly contrary that there is a resurrection of the just and the unjust... but it possible that I misunderstand his comment. I am not up on their views on this subject being much more interested in the Christological issues.

[Piebald]

They have received their penalty - death.


That is the thing though - "death" isn't a penalty. In order for something to receive a "penalty" it has to exist. If anything the only penalty they receive are the last few moments of pain or discomfort as they slip into oblivion.

To the Christadelphian as long as you are "alive" you are not receiving the penalty for sin, death.

But since they also believe that you are only in existence while you are alive this statement is also true:

As long as you exist, you are not receiving the penalty for sin.

But something has to exist in order to receive a penalty or be punished.

[Piebald]

Anyone want to take a jab at this?

[AVmetro]

Hamster:

Great stuff! :thumb:

[AVmetro]

Dee Dee:

Dee Dee:

I believe Hank Haneegraaf has constructed a very good philosphical and biblical case against annihilationism in his book Resurrection.

:arrow: I've been aiming to look into that.

Dee Dee:

From what I understand though CD's believe that there is no resurrection of the damned. At least that is what I gleaned from Ev's comment to me (and I do not begrudge him this comment at all) that Trinitarianism was earning me a one-way ticket to the grave without hope of a resurrection. So, that seems directly contrary that there is a resurrection of the just and the unjust... but it possible that I misunderstand his comment. I am not up on their views on this subject being much more interested in the Christological issues.

Rev 20:12-15 And I saw the dead, the small and the great, standing before God. And books were opened. And another Book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged out of the things written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead in it. And death and hell gave up the dead in them. And they were each judged according to their works. And death and hell were thrown into the Lake of Fire. This is the second death. And if anyone was not found having been written in the Book of Life, he was thrown into the Lake of Fire.

Hi Seer and God bless you!:

Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever. And those worshiping the beast and its image have no rest night and day, even if anyone receives the mark of its name.

-How can one have "no rest night and day" if they are 'annihilated'?

Rev 20:10 And the Devil leading them astray was thrown into the Lake of Fire and Brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet were. And they were tormented day and night to the ages of the ages.

-What is the point of mentioning 'torment' both day AND night if a continual punishment is not meant?

God bless

[Piebald]

How can one have "no rest night and day" if they are 'annihilated'?

Oh, I've been through this before.

"The book of revelation is loaded with symbols, therefore that's simply symbolic"

But symbolic of what? How does eternality of torment symbolize annihilation?

[AVmetro]

I've heard that as well. You certainly have a point. What demands that the idea be merely symbolic? I imagine the everlasting worship of God is merely "symbolic" as well (?)

>

A citation from Ron Rhode's book 'Reasoning from the Scriptures with the Jehovah's Witnesses:


The Greek word for "torment" in this verse is basanizo. Joseph Thayer's lexicon says the word means "to vex with grievous pains...to torment." Likewise, Arndt and Gingrich's lexicon say the word means "to torture, torment."

[.....]

...the same word for torment is used to speak of the pains of childbirth in Rev12:2. It is also used of the centurion's sick servant being grieveously tormented by palsy in Matt8:6. It is used in Luke 16:23 and 28 to describe the physical suffering of the rich man in Hades. Clearly the word communicates the idea of horrendous physical pain.

Now the "torment" in Revelation 14 is described as a 'never-ending' torment:
"And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever.... There is no rest day or night" (verse11).
The words "for ever and ever" translate an emphatic Greek phrase, 'eis aionas aionon' ("unto the ages of ages"). The twofold use of the term aionas is used in Scripture to emphasize the concept of eternity. And the plural forms ("unto the ages of ages") reinforces the idea of never-ending duration. Lutheran scholar R.C.H. Lenski comments,

The strongest expression for our "forever" is 'eis tous aionan ton aionon', "for the eons of eons"; many eons, each of vast duration , are multiplied by many more, which we imitate by "forever and ever." Human language is able to use only temporal terms to express what is altogether beyond time and timeless. The Greek takes its greatest term for time, the 'eon', pluralizes this, and then multiplies it by its own plural, even using articles which make these eons the definite ones.
[R.C.H Lenski, Revelation (Minneapolis: Augsburb, 1961), p.438.]

This same emphatic contruction is used to speak of the never-ending worshiop of God in Revelation 1:6, 4:9, and 5:3. It is also used to describe the eternality of God in Revelation 4:10 and 10:6. We cannot emphasize too strongly that this phrase shows beyond doubt that the physical torment of the wicked is forever and ever and ever.

[.....]

The use of the words "day and night" (NASB) is also significant (in the phrase "they have no rest day and night" [NASB]). Gomes comments: "The expression 'day and night' is indicative of ceaseless activity. This same phrase is used of the never-ending worship of God in Revelation 4:8 and 7:15. By juxtaposing the words 'day and night' with 'forever and ever' in 20:10 [another passage dealing with eternal troment], we have the most emphatic expression of unending, ceaseless activity possible in the Greek language."
Note also, that if annihilation is the fate of the wicked, they indeed would experience "rest". But our text in Revelation 14:11 specifically says they have no rest forever. Clearly, then, the language of Revelation 14 emphatically points to the eternal, concious suffering of the wicked.

[.....]

[Ron Rhodes, Reasoning from the scriptures with the Jehovah's Witnesses, pp.336-338]

God bless

[mickiel]

I am continually disturbed at mans desire to see other men punished. I wonder how many christians actually pray for the punishment of others. It is a bloodlust that is morbid. Why wuld God punish someone for being in futility that he himself subjected them into? Romans 8:20; humankind was subjected to uselessness, not by their own free will, but because of Gods will.In verse 21, God even subjected creation itself to deteration, slavery to corruption. But there is hope in the word of God, there is salvation, an end to corruption and punishment. In Isaiah 57:16, anger grows weaker in God, he will not substain punishment eternally.

Punishment is pain, misery, crying, and mourning, this are the ingredients of the hell that believers in Christ desire for men to experience. A demented desire, misguided confused zeal. In Revelation 21:3,4, a very loud voice emits from the very throne of God himself to make a prophectic anouncement to all living beings; God will BE WITH HIS PEOPLE, actually walk amoung them, and they shall be his. God will comfort everyone who has suffered and those who desire others to suffer. The announcement is a holy revelation of the will of God Almighty, blessed be his merciful name, There will be NO MORE death, NO MORE crying, NO MORE pain and NO MORE mourning. This is the promised future of mankind. It is impossible for hell to exist AFTER this moment.

This is the SECOND DEATH, as revealed in Rev. 21:8. Interestingly the lake of fire is called " the second death." The second death IS THE DEATH OF THE FIRST DEATH, it will never exist again. None of the things listed in this vere will exist again, no cowards, no unbelieving will exist, no lying in essence no sin will ever be again, these will all die. Death is not eternal life. Sin will not be given eternity. God will not eternally co-exist with misery. The bloodlust for hell to be a reality for eternity, will be changed to forgiveness and mercy-- these two charactheristics of God will overcome judgement, mercy triumphs over judgement, the bloodlust will be replaced by the blood of the Lamb of God. His holy shedding of blod will be the healing of all nations of sinners on earth, all praise to the majestic will of God.

Hell is a curse that satan INTENSELY DESIRES for mankind. He has seduced Gods children into desiring this curse for their fellow men. In Rev. 22:3, John was shown a wonderful example of Gods presdestined will; THERE SHALL NO LONGER BE ANY CURSE, there shall no longer be any night. What John saw was the end of God wrath, his reaction to sin. He saw the lake of fire put to ANOTHER USE. Its punisning intent was forfuilled.

To study the very nature of God, is a study in forgiveness. GOD WILL EVENTUALLY FORGIVE. It is his way. The gospel is based on the forgiving quality of God, his saving grace is his strongest desire for mankind. He has NOT WILLED ANY TO PERISH, somehow Christ will SAVE he must, he was assigned BY GOD to save the WORLD,set for that reason alone---1 John 4:14. There is no way Jesus could do this UNLESS HE REMOVES SIN FROM THE EARTH AS A WHOLE. John 1:29, claims he HAS ALREADY done this. Christians are unbelievers of this. Jesus knows that God trapped man into sin, Rom. 11;28-32, ONLY TO RELEASE HIM, to show him mercy. This is an act of pure love, God has no bloodlust for misery. Verse 32 is the glory of the true gospel-- God hasshut all up in unbelief, disobedience, that HE MIGHT SHOW MERCY TO THAT SAME ALL. God is so very good and FAIR. If you lock me in a room, then punish me for being late, that is unfair, t is not just.

WHY has God done this, verse 33, Oh the depth of the riches BOTH of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How UNSEARCHABLE are his judgements and un fathomable his ways. This is why christians call universalism heresey, they do not understand Gods ways. Free will and hell are THEIR WAYS of interpiting God. They are wise in THEIR OWN estimation of what eternal suffering should be. It SHOULDNOT BE. But it is the strength of THEIR gospel. Those of you who will, notice Gal. 3:22, ALL men are SHUT UP UNDER SIN. Then BELIEVERS ARE FREED FIRST. FIRST! Believing is a GIFT It is given by God. YOU cannot RECEIVE this gift of belief, UNLESS HEAVEN GIVES YOU THE ABILITY. Read that in John 3:27. You cannot be fair and give locked up trapped in sin people a severe punishment as hell eternity. That is total nonsense. I am tempted to write more, but i am too long.

[Piebald]

I am continually disturbed at mans desire to see other men punished.

I agree that it is a terrible thing to desire to see people punished, as Christians we ought to desire to see men saved and reconciled in God's presence. Please don't get that impression from what I say.

This has little to do with my argument (re: Christadelphians), however.

Peace,
:sig:

P.S. Happy Birthday!

[mickiel]

This has little to do with my argument (re: Christadelphians), however.

Peace,
:sig:

P.S. Happy Birthday! [/QUOTE]

You are noting that the delphians are not leaving room for the punishment of the wicked. You want that room, you want that punishment INCLUDED IN GODS WRATH. You DESIRE it. You are BELIEVING FOR IT. Explain to me which of these statements are not true. You SEE punishment in the bible. You have grabbed hold of it, and will not release it. Releasing is forgiving, which means the sin NO LONGER EXIST. You are believing God will not forgive when its time to punish. Its too late for forgiveness, its now time for pain. So why don't you help me understand WHAT the punishment IS? No need to be evasive, you want, you think sinners should be punished. Tell me how is God going to punish them? How long? Describe the punishment in detail if you please.

[Piebald]

ou are noting that the delphians are not leaving room for the punishment of the wicked

I am saying their interpretation of the bible is wrong, yes.

You want that room, you want that punishment INCLUDED IN GODS WRATH. You DESIRE it.

No, actually I don't want anyone to have to endure punishment. But this is a really silly argument and I think deep down you know it.

We have tons of jails across the country -- and I am sure that you support their existence.

So does that mean that you want people to be confined to prison cells and endure the loneliness and despair that comes with them? Of course not, you want everyone to behave themselves so that they do not have to endure such a punishment.

So I really don't understand how you have decided that I must "want" people to suffer in hell. Believing that the wicked will be punished doesn't entail any "desire" on my part, unless it's the desire to interpret the text accurately.

You are BELIEVING FOR IT

No, I'm reading scripture which says that the wicked will be punished and I have faith in this scripture's accuracy.

You have grabbed hold of it, and will not release it

What you are doing is painting a caricature of me and my desires. I have no idea why. Maybe if you attempt to drag my character and spirit through the mud I will somehow be "shamed" into believing that scripture does not speak of punishment for the wicked. Nonsense. Discussing that the wicked will be punished according to scripture does not mean that I am dwelling on the subject nor that I look forward to seeing it.

You are believing God will not forgive when its time to punish. Its too late for forgiveness, its now time for pain

2 Thessalonians 1:9
They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power

I'm sorry if you don't like it, but that's what scripture says.

You are believing God will not forgive when its time to punish

Matthew 6:15
But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.

2 Thessalonians 2:12
and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

No need to be evasive, you want, you think sinners should be punished. Tell me how is God going to punish them? How long? Describe the punishment in detail if you please.

And if I do that, what will you do? Cleft your tongue in self-righteous indignation and bemoan these wicked Christians who can't embrace your holy interpretation of scripture?

Nah, I'll cut straight to the chase and draw a caricature of myself covered in flames delighting in the punishment of the wicked. It's what you want to believe about me anyways.