PreteristQuoteoftheDay

[Hitch]

The dispensationalist expect to see the revivial of the Roman empire,,,we expect to see the revivial of Christianity

[Dr. Jack Bauer]

The Catholic postmil expects both.

[spl_cadet]

Heck, I don't care if there is a "Great Monarch", the Holy Roman Empire should be brought back just on general principles.

[James Peter]

On general principle of what exactly?

[spl_cadet]

17. What's so holy about the Holy Roman Emperor?

What was holy about the office, apart from various of its occupants like Bl. Charlemagne and St. Henry, was its role. Gary Potter sums it up admirably in modern terms:

Words express ideas, and some of them now being quoted signify notions likely to be totally foreign to anyone unfamiliar with history prior to a few decades ago: "world emperor," "imperial office,"… This is not the place to lay out all the history needed to be known for thoroughly grasping the notions. However, the principal one was adumbrated by Our Lord Himself in the last command his followers received from Him: to make disciples of all the nations. In a word, the idea of a universal Christian commonwealth is what we are talking about.

To date it has never existed. To-day there is not even a Christian government anywhere. However, from the conversion of Constantine until August, 1806 – with an interruption (in the West) from Romulus Augustulus in 476 to Charlemagne in 800 – there was the Empire. It was the heart of what was once know as Christendom. Under its aegis serious European settlement of the Western Hemisphere began and the Americas’ native inhabitants were first baptised, which is why the feather cloak of Montezuma is to be seen to-day in a museum in Vienna. After 1806 a kind of shadow of the Empire, the Austro-Hungarian one, endured until the end of World War I, when its abolition was imposed as a condition of peace by U.S. President Woodrow Wilson. Since 1438, when Albert V…was crowned Roman Emperor, all the Emperors were Habsburgs. The last was Archduke Otto’s father, Karl.

Of what interest could this ancient history be to us to-day? Well, as the "Russian Newman," Vladimir Soloviev put it, "For lack of an imperial power genuinely Christian and Catholic, the Church has not succeeded in establishing social and political justice in Europe." Nor anywhere else, one might add. Through such efforts as the United Nations and the European and other regional unions, secular man attempts, unconsciously, to rebuild some sort of unity among people. Many writers have attempted to sum up the importance of the Imperial office, and it too is reflected in the Church‘s liturgy.

http://www.royaltymonarchy.com/opinion/articles/coulombe/monfaq.html

[Solly]

:rofl: That's the funniest thing I've read all week. sheesh, that's idealistic NON european monarchists for you (and I mean Spl and Theodore).

[George Murphy]

http://www.royaltymonarchy.com/opinion/articles/coulombe/monfaq.html

This is an intriguing phase shift of 180 degrees from the fanatics who imagine that Christianity disappeared in a "great apostasy" sometime in the 1st century & didn't reappear until the emergence of their favorite Enthusiast sometimes in the 16th century or later. The view espoused here seems to be that genuine Christianity never existed until Constantine - or maybe Theodosius or Karl der Grosse - & went underground in 1806!

On a more serious note, real historical scholars will realize that the "Holy Roman Empire" was in fact a German Empire & even when "Holy Roman" is used it may be in a phrase like "the Holy Roman Empire of the German nation." That's why the Germans sometimes refer to it as the First Reich. It never encompassed all the Christian lands of the west - e.g., Britain, which had been part of the real Roman Empire, or Ireland.

Shalom,
George

[Amazing Rando]

Heck, I don't care if there is a "Great Monarch", the Holy Roman Empire should be brought back just on general principles.

Naaaah. It was a good thing it died out. The church was nothing but a tool of the state- a temporal power grab. The church should not be a tool of the state, nor should the state ever be a tool of the church.

[Solly]

Wrong Ar, the state was the tool of the Church. Never underestimate the power of an excommunication.

[Amazing Rando]

Wrong Ar, the state was the tool of the Church. Never underestimate the power of an excommunication.

Thank you- I got it backwards. It was the other way around in the Eastern Empire- church was tool of state.

[Anoetos]

Book Recommendation:

"Charlemagne; Father of a Continent" by Alessandro Barbero.

He agrees with George Murphy and his case is absolutely compelling.

And re: the church state thing?

Leo III was a weak Pope who desperately needed Charles to support him. Charles, for all intents and purposes, so influenced papal policy as to be it's actual author.

However, this is something of a parenthesis. Often the kings and princes of western Europe paid lipservice to the Pope's hegemony.

But then, as we all learned in High School history THE issue of the Middle Ages was exactly this relationship of church to state; the pendulum swung both ways many times. It certainly wasn't the cartoon papalists on the one hand and anti-clericalists on the other would have us digest.

The causal impact of this tension on the Reformation, socially speaking, cannot be underestimated.

[Hitch]

The Catholic postmil expects both. Well that explains some things....

[Dr. Jack Bauer]

Well that explains some things....Things like what?

[dizzle]

like why toast always falls butter side down?

[brother vinny]

like why toast always falls butter side down?

Uh-huh-huh-huh-huh, you said "butt."

[Sheepdog]

:lol:

after reading your sig, BV, i just now got your av and stat line.

[studyhound]

"Israel could have accepted (Jesus) as Messiah and He would have ushered in the millennial Kingdom. Somehow, Jesus would have been crucified at some later point to fulfill the prophecy and provide salvation of all those who repent of their sins." - Apocalypse, p. 33,34.
Grant Jeffery

Oh wait I thought it was dumb dispensationalist quote of the day.

:blush:

:sh:

[brother vinny]

:lol:

after reading your sig, BV, i just now got your av and stat line.

I keep waiting for her to respond, but it's clear to me now that she just doesn't get it
wants little or nothing to do with me
is maintaining a stolid silence
has no sense of humor to speak of
is too busy with her own concerns to deal with the likes of me
wishes I would just go away.

[dizzle]

Sorry BV just very busy. And trying to learn some of that Eric Meyer CSS code.