The Comforter: Does anyone know Greek?

[Christian2]

I have questions about the Comforter and this verse:

"And I will pray the Father, and he will give you another Comforter, to be with you for ever, even the Spirit of Truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him; you know him, for he dwells with you, and will be in you". John 14.16-17.

"...and will be in you."

I am interested in the Greek word that is translated into English as "in." Does the Greek word actually mean literally "inside"? If not, then where do we get the idea that the Comforter, the Holy Spirit is literally inside of us?

What does this mean "you know him, for he dwells with you." How did the Comforter know the disciples? How did the Comforter dwell with the disciples?

Thank you.

[Cyrus of Persia]

Yep. The word "en" means "in", or "by".

[James Peter]

The language used is basically the same as that used of demonic possession. Sometimes the Spirit is described as being in us, sometimes we are described as being in the Spirit. “The two beings are conceived as somehow ensphering each other, and sometimes one, sometimes the other, is said to enclose the being identified with it.” (ICC: Mark, Gould, 1896)

en doesn't really mean 'by' though, not literally anyway...that translation comes from rationalising how the Spirit is influencing things (and may make more sense than a completely literal translation as it appears to be the intent in some cases.)

I'd suggest that the reason that the disciples know the Comforter because he dwells with them is because Jesus dwells with them. If whoever has seen Jesus has seen the Father then I think its plausible to say that whoever has been with Jesus has been with the Spirit too.

[Jaltus]

I would disagree with the above poster.

"In" is the primary meaning of the word, and the primary function is locative (location).

[kofh2u]

The language used is basically the same as that used of demonic possession. Sometimes the Spirit is described as being in us, sometimes we are described as being in the Spirit. “The two beings are conceived as somehow ensphering each other, and sometimes one, sometimes the other, is said to enclose the being identified with it.” (ICC: Mark, Gould, 1896)

en doesn't really mean 'by' though, not literally anyway...that translation comes from rationalising how the Spirit is influencing things (and may make more sense than a completely literal translation as it appears to be the intent in some cases.)

I'd suggest that the reason that the disciples know the Comforter because he dwells with them is because Jesus dwells with them. If whoever has seen Jesus has seen the Father then I think its plausible to say that whoever has been with Jesus has been with the Spirit too.

THE KINGDOM OF GOD IS WITHIN:

1) Lucifer = The Pleasure Principle = Id
2) Satan = Physical Drives = Libido
3) Mammon = The Aggressive Drive = Ego
4) Devil = Feminine principle of Intuition = Anima
5) Baalzebub = The Reality Principle = Self
6) False Prophet = The Logical/Mathematical Mind = Superego
7) False Shepherd = Psychic Balance = Harmony

and before even Abraham, in our species,
8) The Good Shepherd = Brotherliness = Conscience

[James Peter]

Sorry if I didn't make clear that en primarily does mean 'in'. I just went one step further and explored how it is used in the context of overlap between spirits and humans. If we are both in the Spirit and also the Spirit is in us then it follows that the literal 'something small physically inside something larger' cannot apply. The Spirit isn't just a small part of us that lives inside us, it should flow through everything we are in a way which is really beyond a physical description - the Spirit is within us, on us etc. - various prepositions are used to evoke the real relationship.

And kofh2u...where do you pull all this stuff from? And what does it have to do with the Holy Spirit?

[Christian2]

Thank you James Peter,

Your statement below is very good:

I'd suggest that the reason that the disciples know the Comforter because he dwells with them is because Jesus dwells with them. If whoever has seen Jesus has seen the Father then I think its plausible to say that whoever has been with Jesus has been with the Spirit too.

Further, Jesus said that if He didn't go away that the Comforter would not come. Implying I suppose that since Jesus was the first Comforter, there would be no need for another while He was on earth.

I did ask my minister about this one and he said:

"The Greek word "en" indeed does mean "in," "inside" being another word
entirely, although sharing the same root. I think, though, that you can
safely assume that it means inside (i.e., dwells with you, Gr.
en-oikeo) which shares the same Greek root."

Now what I need is to find someone who can read Koine Greek and can take a look at the passage in question in the Greek NT text and tell me if the Greek word used in this passage is indeed "en."

Someone suggested to me that the Comforter was not the Holy Spirit, but was a human person.

Thanks.

[Jaltus]

I teach Koine Greek in grad school.

The word is indeed en.

[James Peter]

We would hardly be discussing the various meanings of the word en if that wasn't the preposition used in the verse now would we? Or at least I wouldn't be. :wink:

The word used is en though I still stand by my additional comments that it doesn't mean just that the Spirit is physically inside us. To argue that the Spirit is simply inside us is, in my opinion, neglecting the wider picture of how spirits are described as interacting with men. The other prepositions used just within these two verses are meta (with or among) and para (beside or nearby) so do you really want to take the fact that the Spirit is inside us quite so literally as to discount the fact that he is also near and with us (implies external to us).

[Cyrus of Persia]

Now what I need is to find someone who can read Koine Greek and can take a look at the passage in question in the Greek NT text and tell me if the Greek word used in this passage is indeed "en."


I have learned it in University, but internet is also wonderful place for "dummies". Check out http://www.greekbible.com/
You can type the verse where you need info, and by clicking on Greek word, usually the translation appears :wink:

[James Peter]

Wow, thanks for the link. Thats just given me an even quicker shortcut fdor when I'm in a hurry with translation work. Very useful to not have to parse myself.

[Christian2]

I have learned it in University, but internet is also wonderful place for "dummies". Check out http://www.greekbible.com/
You can type the verse where you need info, and by clicking on Greek word, usually the translation appears :wink:

Cyrus: That link is so cool and so helpful to the "dummies" like me. Thank you very much. BTW: I passed the link on to my minister because he told me he got a "pity pass" in Greek from Harvard. lol

God bless