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Samuel
March 23rd 2005, 03:23 AM
This was written by John M. Frame!

I find it very helpful and clear.

There are two theories of free will that are often discussed in relation to ethical responsibility. The first is usually called “libertarianism,” and it is typical of Arminian theology. Many philosophers have also argued for it, from Epicurus in ancient times to C. A. Campbell, H. D. Lewis, Alvin Plantinga and many others recently. Indeed, it seems to be something of a consensus among Christian philosophers today that one cannot do justice to moral responsibility without presupposing a libertarian view of freedom.

The libertarian view states that some human decisions and actions, particularly moral and religious decisions, are strictly uncaused. In the most sophisticated forms of libertarianism, these decisions are not even caused by our desires or character. They are very insistent on this: a truly free act is not an act which carries out our strongest desire; it rather, typically, goes against our strongest desire. The libertarian is aware, of course, that our desires are largely a function of our heredity, environment, past decisions and so on. If free decisions are based on desires, he thinks, they are not fully free. They are not in this case wholly uncaused.

The libertarian argues that such a view is essential to moral responsibility. For no one is responsible for an act unless he “could have done otherwise.” If I am strapped to a robotic machine which, using my arms, robs a bank, I am not to blame for robbing the bank. I “could not have done otherwise.” Such is the libertarian argument.

I have always felt that this position lacked cogency. For one thing, it denies the rule of God’s sovereignty over the hearts and decisions of human beings, a rule which I find abundantly attested in Scripture (see my lectures on the Doctrine of God). Indeed, in saying that human actions can be “uncaused,” it attributes to man ultimate causality; but in Christianity, only God is the first cause.

For another thing, libertarianism seems to me to be unintelligible on its own terms, for it makes our moral choices accidental. R. E. Hobart, in a famous article from the 1930s, wrote to the effect that on the libertarian basis, a moral choice is like my feet popping out of my bed without my desiring them to, and carrying me where I don’t want to go. The attempt to separate decisions from desires is psychologically perverse.

Further, libertarianism, rather than guaranteeing moral responsibility, actually destroys it. How can we be held responsible for decisions, if those decisions are “psychological accidents,” unconnected with any of our desires? Indeed, such a situation would, precisely, negate all responsibility. Certainly it is difficult to imagine being held responsible for something we really didn’t want to do.

And libertarianism would make a hash of ethical and legal evaluation. In order to prove that someone was responsible for a decision or act, we would have to prove that decision or act was uncaused! And how can you prove a negative like that? In fact, as we actually practice ethics and law, causation as such is never a factor in judgment, and indeed it could not be. Certain kinds of causation (like the robot machine I described above) do remove responsibility; but causation itself does not.

An alternative concept of freedom, one consistent with Reformed theology and held by a number of philosophers (the Stoics, Spinoza, Locke, Hume, Hobart, Richard Double et al) is often called “compatibilism,” for on that basis, free will and determinism (the view that all events in creation are caused) are compatible. Compatibilism maintains simply that in making moral decisions we are free to do what we want to do, to follow our desires. As such, compatibilism is the precise opposite of libertarianism, which holds that freedom requires independence from desire itself.

Reformed theology recognizes that all people have freedom in the compatibilist sense. Adam before the Fall acted according to his desires, which then were godly. After the fall, sinners still act according to their desires, but those desires are sinful. The redeemed are enabled by God’s grace, and progressively, to desire things which are excellent; and they are free to act according to those desires. The glorified saints in heaven will have only pure desires, and they will act in accordance with those.

I believe that compatibilist freedom is the main kind of freedom necessary to moral responsibility. There are other kinds of freedom, however, which are also important theologically and ethically. For example, I believe that human beings have a certain freedom to transcend their heredity and environment, so that although these factors may constitute moral challenges, tests, even temptations, we may not use them as excuses for sin. We may not claim to be “determined” by heredity or environment so that we deny our responsibility before God.

Another important kind of freedom is freedom from sin itself. That is the usual meaning of “freedom” in Scripture, as in John 8:32,36. In this sense, fallen man is in bondage, not able to avoid sinning. Only the grace of Christ can set him free. In this sense, sinful decisions are not free decisions, although they are free in the “compatibilist” sense. Does this bondage compromise the sinner’s moral responsibility? Certainly not according to Scripture.

If we have difficulty here, it may be because we fail to understand the nature of the sinner’s bondage. It is a moral and spiritual bondage, not a metaphysical, physical or psychological bondage. If, as in my robot-machine illustration, someone is physically forced to do something he doesn’t want to do, then of course his bondage removes his responsibility for the act. Confronted with his “deed,” the person would have a valid excuse: “I couldn’t help it; I was physically forced to do it.” But imagine someone coming before a human judge and saying, to excuse himself of a crime, “I couldn’t help it, your honor; I was forced to do it by my nature. Since birth I’ve just been a rotten guy!” Surely there is something ironic about appealing to depravity to excuse depraved acts! If our defendant really is a “rotten guy,” then, far from being an excuse, that is all the more reason to lock him up! My point, then, is that although physical (and some other kinds of) bondage can furnish valid excuses for otherwise bad actions, moral bondage is not such an excuse. I can’t imagine anyone disputing that proposition once he understands it.

So, there are several different concepts of freedom: libertarianism, compatibilism, moral transcendence of environment, freedom from sin. Indeed, there are many others, too. We speak of “freedom” whenever there is an ability to overcome some potential obstacle. Economic freedom is the ability to purchase and invest, despite the difficulties of achieving it. Physical freedom of various sorts exists when the body is not restrained, e.g., by ropes or prison bars. Legal freedom is the ability to do something without being guilty of a crime, and so on. It is a good idea for us to remember how ambiguous the term “freedom” is. When someone makes an issue of it, we may legitimately ask that person to define what concept of freedom he has in mind.

And we ourselves should try harder to be clear. When you preach evangelistically, noting the proper Calvinist and biblical emphasis on the sinner’s inability, how do you present that? Simply to say that the sinner “cannot” receive Christ is misleading. In many senses he can, and should: he is physically and mentally able; he is not forced to remain a sinner contrary to his desires; nor is he “unable” in the sense that we have some knowledge that divine grace will forever be denied. The sinner’s inability is moral and spiritual; indeed, as we have seen, it is an inability for which he is himself responsible.

Simply to say “you cannot receive Christ” is to motivate a passive response at best, one which simply waits for God to do something. But that is not the response required by New Testament preaching, or by Reformed preaching at its best. The response required is “repent, believe and be baptized.” The sinner is to act, not to wait for God to make him act. Of course if he does act, then we know that God has acted too!

Another area of confusion: I don’t know how many times I have asked candidates for licensure and ordination whether we are free from God’s decree, and they have replied, “No, because we are fallen.” That is to confuse libertarianism (freedom from God’s decree, ability to act without cause) with freedom from sin. In the former case, the fall is entirely irrelevant. Neither before nor after the fall did Adam have freedom in the libertarian sense. But freedom from sin is something different. Adam had that before the fall, but lost it as a result of the fall.

infide
March 23rd 2005, 04:01 AM
it seems that whoever wrote this article does not understand libertarian freedom. its just a slew of misconceptions, which i would go into, if i wasnt tired.

im sure someone will get to it.

if not, i will at a later date.

Samuel
March 23rd 2005, 09:46 AM
it seems that whoever wrote this article does not understand libertarian freedom. its just a slew of misconceptions, which i would go into, if i wasnt tired.

im sure someone will get to it.

if not, i will at a later date.

Think about how long it took that person to write that article, then compare that to how long it took you to write your response. The truth is hard to accept because it is not appealing to the heart for the heart is deceitful and who can know it! Excuses are an easy way out of a truth, but the truth will set you free if you only but accept it.

CJD®
March 23rd 2005, 10:23 AM
Firstly, Samuel, you really ought to cite the reference from which this article comes (as a .pdf, it can be found here (http://thirdmill.org/newfiles/joh_frame/Frame.Freewill_and_Moral_Responsibility.pdf)). And secondly, infide, a word to the wise: Professor Frame (http://www.rts.edu/academics/faculty/index.cfm?fuseaction=faculty.bio&id=19) is no slouch. It would be prudent to never give that man the sleight of hand.

[edited to add: Moreover, what is the copyright with this article? Can it be freely disseminated like this?]

micah4
March 24th 2005, 01:26 AM
I have always felt that this position /libertarianism/ lacked cogency. For one thing, it denies the rule of God’s sovereignty over the hearts and decisions of human beings, a rule which I find abundantly attested in Scripture (see my lectures on the Doctrine of God).


Frame needs to clarify in what way libertarianism "denies the rule of God's sovereignty" over human decisions. If we assert absolute monergestic control by God over human decisions, then it unquestionably is God who causes men to decide to sin, which I doubt frame endorses (although sometimes you just don't know). So at one level or another, both Frame and libertarians must deny complete and total control by God over human decisions, so he's not really being clear what the distinction is between his own view and that of libertarians which he finds so objectionable.

micah4
March 24th 2005, 01:38 AM
For another thing, libertarianism seems to me to be unintelligible on its own terms, for it makes our moral choices accidental. R. E. Hobart, in a famous article from the 1930s, wrote to the effect that on the libertarian basis, a moral choice is like my feet popping out of my bed without my desiring them to, and carrying me where I don’t want to go. The attempt to separate decisions from desires is psychologically perverse.

Further, libertarianism, rather than guaranteeing moral responsibility, actually destroys it. How can we be held responsible for decisions, if those decisions are “psychological accidents,” unconnected with any of our desires?

Slouch or no slouch, infide is right; this is pretty sloppy. Libertarian Free Will choices are anything but "accidental" or "unconnected to our desires". LFW choice, and the foundation of moral agencys, is in essence the process by which we resolve more than one conflicting desire. E.g., I desire to smoke a cigarette, but I don't desire to die of cancer. Now how could anybody say that choice is "unconnected to any of our desires"? Certainly the choice is intricately bound in those desires; it is the resolution between whether I will identify myself with the one desire or the other. In so doing, I assume responsibility for acting on the desire I chose to act upon.

LFW choice is therefore anything but accidental, it is in it's very essence purposeful. The difference between indeterminists and determinists therefore is that for the indeterminist, that which determines the outcome of a choice is bound forward to a purpose which is grounded in the future, whereas for the determinist that choice is nothing but the inevitable consequence of the past (which, one could argue, makes the choice even more describable as "accidental"; certainly it voids the 'choice' of any real purpose other than to inform the agent as to which direction outside influences have determined his future).

micah4
March 24th 2005, 01:49 AM
And libertarianism would make a hash of ethical and legal evaluation. In order to prove that someone was responsible for a decision or act, we would have to prove that decision or act was uncaused! And how can you prove a negative like that?


In fact we don't have to, because the legal system assumes (in the absence of clear evidence to the contrary) that one was not compelled to do such and so by outside forces, but that they were free to do otherwise. It seems odd to argue that a system that assumes we have the power to have done otherwise somehow demonstrates that we don't.


In fact, as we actually practice ethics and law, causation as such is never a factor in judgment, and indeed it could not be. Certain kinds of causation (like the robot machine I described above) do remove responsibility


Yeah, they kind that we can demonstrate exist, like somebody holding a gun to your head. In the absence of evidence of outside coercion, we assume the agent was free, and could and should have done otherwise.


; but causation itself does not.


What causation? Frame is question-begging here. Does he provide even one example in his "legal system" comparison where there was demonstrable and clear outside coercion where the party could not have done otherwise, and yet is still righteously judged as guilty? Can you provide one?

micah4
March 24th 2005, 02:33 AM
An alternative concept of freedom, one consistent with Reformed theology and held by a number of philosophers (the Stoics, Spinoza, Locke, Hume, Hobart, Richard Double et al) is often called “compatibilism,” for on that basis, free will and determinism (the view that all events in creation are caused) are compatible. Compatibilism maintains simply that in making moral decisions we are free to do what we want to do, to follow our desires. As such, compatibilism is the precise opposite of libertarianism, which holds that freedom requires independence from desire itself.

...

I believe that compatibilist freedom is the main kind of freedom necessary to moral responsibility. There are other kinds of freedom, however, which are also important theologically and ethically. For example, I believe that human beings have a certain freedom to transcend their heredity and environment, so that although these factors may constitute moral challenges, tests, even temptations, we may not use them as excuses for sin. We may not claim to be “determined” by heredity or environment so that we deny our responsibility before God.


Huh? Now frame is arguing exactly what the LFW position claims. Why is it important to frame to argue that we can't claim to be determined by outside factors such that we deny our responsibility, if his thesis is that determinism is compatible with moral accountability? Is this not an admission that strict determinism would deny responsibility??? So Frame sets out to establish that it poses no problem to assert determinism, yet finds it necessary to point out that in some vague and unclear sense, we are not determined.

He seems to suggest that if we are determined by heredity or environment, that would not be compatible with responsibility; but if we are determined by something else (not specified, direct intervention of God perhaps?) then that is compatible with responsibility. The only way I can make sense of this is if Frame is arguing that whether determinism is compatible with responsibility (or not) is dependent on the source doing the determining- although he does nothing to establish why that makes any difference, or to clarify what principle distinguishes a compatible source of determinism from an incompatible source of determinism.

So first he says compatibilist freedom is the "main kind of freedom necessary" for moral responsibility, but then goes on to argue that we also do have some sort of indeterminist freedom. So what's with the "main kind" language? Is it the only kind necessary, or is the incompatiblist freedom he later describes also necessary? Is compatibilist freedom sufficient or not? If it's not, but he finds it necessary to posit indeterministic freedom in addition to the "main kind" of compatibilist freedom, then what in the world is the purpose of this essay? If indeterministic freedom is necessary at all in addition to the "main kind" of freedom he claims is needed (compatibilism), then indeterministic freedom is still necessary, and determinism is therefore not compatible with moral accountability. Honestly this portion of Frames essay seems pretty confused.

micah4
March 24th 2005, 03:00 AM
The truth is hard to accept because it is not appealing to the heart for the heart is deceitful and who can know it!

So then are you trying to explain to us why you find Frame's article so appealing?

micah4
March 24th 2005, 05:05 AM
If, as in my robot-machine illustration, someone is physically forced to do something he doesn’t want to do, then of course his bondage removes his responsibility for the act. Confronted with his “deed,” the person would have a valid excuse: “I couldn’t help it; I was physically forced to do it.” But imagine someone coming before a human judge and saying, to excuse himself of a crime, “I couldn’t help it, your honor; I was forced to do it by my nature. Since birth I’ve just been a rotten guy!” Surely there is something ironic about appealing to depravity to excuse depraved acts!


Frame is question begging again here. He assumes a world view that says our bad choices are made necessary by our moral nature, and then says "wouldn't we think it implausible to plead that we are not guilty because we're so rotten and can't do otherwise"- then concludes that our intuitive sense that this is no defense establishes that having a deterministically bad moral nature does not excuse the acts that flow from it. But the basis of this argument assumes that it is true that our corrupt moral nature makes these choices inevitable, which is not what most people assume when they ponder whether that is a reasonable defense. Our intuitive sense that this is not a valid defense derives precisely from the fact that we don't believe that it is true that a mans moral nature makes it necessary for him to rob the liquor store, and that is why we reject his defense, essentially he argues thus:

1. my nature compels me unavoidably to rob the liquor store
2. We intuitively recognize that this does not excuse my robbing the store
3. Therefore, naturistic determination is not incompatible with moral accountability.

The problem is that (2) only appears intuitively true because our legal system rejects (1). If we accept (1), then it is questionable whether we would still hold (2).

It's as if I were to claim that Gravity exerts a force which pulls objects upward toward the sky, and then said "but we all recognize that if I drop a ball, it will fall downward on account of gravity"; therefore, we should all agree that the upward pull of gravity is not incompatible with its causing the ball to fall downward. No, because our recognition that the ball will fall downward is based on our experience in a world where it is true that gravity pulls downward, not upward; our acceptance of (2) is based on a denial of (1). If anything, Frame's example does more to argue that we should reject his premise that our moral choices are determined than it does to argue that we should support his thesis that such determination is compatible with moral responsibility.