Did Jesus die on the cross?

[Christian2]

Hello to all,

Has anyone heard the story that Jesus survived the cross or wasn't put on it in the first place, and died a very old man? A friend of mine is trying to convince me that this is so and he is using Irenaeus.

http://www.tombofjesus.com/core/majorplayers/irenaeus/irenaeus.htm

Here is the clip:

2. IRENAEUS STATES THAT JESUS LIVED TO AT LEAST 100 YEARS OF AGE
We will present excerpts from an important document written by St. Irenaeus entitled, Against Heresies. That entire book is online on the Internet, and can be read at your leisure. The quotes that we will present later come from the Gnostic Society. Library’s online translation of Against Heresies, and we encourage the reader to visit their website and browse through the materials.

Now, it must be stated that St. Irenaeus still believed that Jesus Christ was crucified, but that he was “more than fifty years old when he died.” In fact, Irenaeus believed in the standard teachings of Christianity, as this example, taken from Against Heresies reveals: “...who proclaimed through the prophets the dispensation of God, and the advents, and the birth from a virgin, and the passion, and the resurrection from the dead, and the ascension into heaven in the flesh of the beloved Christ Jesus, our Lord, and his future manifestation from heaven in the glory of the Father...”

Later you will see that St. Irenaeus stated that Jesus was alive during the reign of the Emperor Trajan (Marcus Ulpius Trajanus). But emperor Trajan (98-117 A.D.) began his reign in the year 98 A.D., which means that Jesus would have been at least 98 years old during the reign of Trajan. If Irenaeus was referring to Jesus as being seen in Asia [some believe he was referring to John], then it appears that this was a sighting that Irenaeus believed occurred before the crucifixion, and that, though Jesus was seen in Asia at an older age, this sighting must have occurred before the crucifixion. According to St. Irenaeus, the crucifixion took place when Jesus “was more than fifty years old.” But as you shall see in the tomb link, there exist other evidence that states that the sightings of Jesus in Asia are sightings that occurred after the crucifixion, not before.

This is a link from Against Heresies by Irenaeus where he discusses Jesus' age.

http://www.freivald.org/~jake/library/Irenaeus-againstHeresies-bookII_html/Irenaeus-againstHeresies-bookII_chapterXXII.html

I admit that my eyes are crossed on this one. I've read this stuff several times and still don't understand what Irenaeus is really saying or why. Is he saying that Jesus only preached one year? Is he saying that Jesus died an old man?

Have any of you tackled this one before? Any thoughts from anyone?

Thanks.

[eggsrule]

Jesus died at 33... The Bible claims this, further more te dating of the books in the bible Eg romans 1/2 corinthians meen that they were writen after jesus,s death ad 50,70 etc as they refer to the death of jesus this means that they must have been post crucifiction... hope this clears things up
Ryan :teeth:

[Christian2]

Thank you for your reply eggsrule,

How did you arrive to the conclusion that Jesus died at the age of 33? The Bible says that He started His ministry at approximately the age of 30. How do you know that He preached for three years?

Thanks.

[lee_merrill]

Hi Christian2,

They're misquoting here...

They, however, that they may establish their false opinion regarding that which is written, “to proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord,” maintain that He preached for one year only, and then suffered in the twelfth month. [In speaking thus], they are forgetful to their own disadvantage, destroying His whole work...

So Irenaeus was opposing people who said Jesus ministered only one year.

... even as the Gospel and all the elders testify; those who were conversant in Asia with John, the disciple of the Lord, [affirming] that John conveyed to them that information. And he remained among them up to the times of Trajan. Some of them, moreover, saw not only John...

So again, they are misquoting, Irenaeus is saying John remained until the time of Trajan, not Jesus. I'm not sure why it is said that Jesus ministered three years, but Irenaeus is not teaching otherwise...

Blessings,
Lee

[mossrose]

I don't think it says that Jesus ministered for 3 years, but when you take the gospels all together and count the passovers and other key points of time, I think you get the approximately 3 years of His ministry.

There are historical records of Herod's rule, Pilate's time spent in Judea, Herod Antipas, etc. All these add up to the time Jesus was here.

[Vitae]

Just a tid-bit of information for the discussion. I can't tell you the year, I should find out for you, but for historical purposes for this discussion, jesus is nt believed to have been born at 0 AD, but rather some time in the 30's or 40's. Please, don't ask me to back it up with scripture, but from having discussions with my mother (Masters in Divinity) she said that it is quite accepted that he was born later than 0 AD. -vitae

[James Peter]

No, its not. You're going to argue that Paul was martyred in Rome before Jesus was crucified? Thats going to be quite an interesting argument.

The evidence is that Jesus wasn't born in 0AD, yes, the monks got their calculations wrong. It appears that he was born a few years earlier - probably between 7 and 4 BCE.

[Christian2]

Thank you to all who responded. I am reading and researching and appreciate all of the responses. I have a little something about the date of Jesus' birth given to me by my former minister who has a Ph.D. in the New Testament. I asked her why we celebrate Jesus' birth on December 25th. This is what she said:

The New Testament provides no precise information concerning the year of Jesus' birth. A fixed point from which to start is the fact that Jesus was born before the death of Herod the Great. According to Matthew 2:1-9, Herod was troubled by the arrival of the Wise Men asking where the king of the Jews had been born. From Josephus we learn that Herod died on or before Passover, A.U.C. 750 (that is, on or before April 4, 4 B.C.). How long before this date Jesus was born is not known. Matthew and Luke tell of certain events that occurred between his birth and Herod's death, including the presentation at the temple 40 days after his birth, the visit of the Wise Men, the flight into Egypt, and the murder of the male children in Bethlehem. Whatever view is taken of the order of these events they can scarcely have occupied less than 2 or 3 months. Therefore the birth of Jesus took place no later than January of 4 B.C. or December 5 B.C., and it may have occurred up to 2 years earlier, although this is highly doubtful.

The custom of celebrating Jesus' birth on December 25th began in the 3rd or 4th century. It is questionable whether his birth was celebrated before that time, although we do know that the coming of the Wise Men was being celebrated on January 6 (Epiphany). The reason(s) for designating December 25th, as Jesus' birthday is not known.

Some argue that the date was chosen because it was the date for the pagan celebration Dies Solis Invicti (Day of the Invincible Sun). This celebration honored the sun god. If this were true, the reason(s) would have been (1) December 25th is within the reasonable window of dates (between Dec. 5 & Jan. of the year 4 B.C.); (2) it would have provided Christians an alternative festival in place of the one held in honor of the sun god, which was associated with the pagan Mithra religion.

God bless all

[Vitae]

Well im glad that someone here knew the relavent information. Interesting to read, thanks for clearing that up for me guys. -vitae