Man is unwilling

[Samuel]

I find it most odd when the "Arminian" or "Free-Willers" think God would be unfair for not saving everyone. No folks, it is not God that is unwilling to save people, rather it is man that is unwilling. Just like Adam who was unwilling to obey God in the Garden of Eden! Men love the darkness rather than light and they will constantly turn from God. The natural man hates God and will not come to him unless that individual is acted upon by God first. Of course "Arminians" and "Free-Willers" think that you can just "Believe" but the fact is, they themself have a desire for God and thats because God put it in their hearts and yet they reject half of it. They will say, "Yes God did, but I still had to choose." It's like a 50/50!

Then you have people that are labeled, "Calvinist" and im proud to be labeled that because thats the truth! We give God 100% Glory.

Then you have all these weird things like, LFW, Determinism and everything to make your brain go BONKERS!! Why can't we just stick to the simple truths taught in scripture and believe it just the way it is. We tell people to repent and believe because there totally depraved sinners that need a savior and if they come to the Lord then we know that God has done a work in there heart to allow them to do such a thing! Then God gets the glory in there salvation and then that person is secure forever and will never fall from God's hand.

Anyways, I was reading earlier and found out that.. Theoligians are clever devils with sound doctrine.. lol sounds true to me, especially with all the big words around here and such!!

Face it Satan, you hate me just as much as I hate you.. you can try to deceive people into thinking they have a will, but by God your will .. will send you to hell! Amen

Sambo :lol: :smile: :ahem:

[mickiel]

[QUOTE=Samuel]I find it most odd when the "Arminian" or "Free-Willers" think God would be unfair for not saving everyone. No folks, it is not God that is unwilling to save people, rather it is man that is unwilling




What makes you think salvation is based on a mans will? Why would God leave something as important as salvation up to us? Humanity is too stupid to correctly deal with eternal existance on their own.

[Samuel]

[QUOTE=Samuel]I find it most odd when the "Arminian" or "Free-Willers" think God would be unfair for not saving everyone. No folks, it is not God that is unwilling to save people, rather it is man that is unwilling




What makes you think salvation is based on a mans will? Why would God leave something as important as salvation up to us? Humanity is too stupid to correctly deal with eternal existance on their own.

I was referring to mans unwillingess to comply with the conditions of the covenant of grace; that is, to apprehend the Redeemer by a living faith, to come up to the terms of salvation, to repent of idols and to love God and the Mediator supremely. Man is totally depraved and therefore it's not Gods fault but it's mans. I don't think salvation is based on a mans will at all. In fact im totally against a mans will.

[Pereynol of Sheer Dread]

I find it most odd when the "Arminian" or "Free-Willers" think God would be unfair for not saving everyone.

No Arminian or advocate of "free will" that I've ever heard of believes anything close to the parody you give us here.


No folks, it is not God that is unwilling to save people, rather it is man that is unwilling.

For man to be unwilling, he must first have a will of some sort; you seem to think he has none....


Just like Adam who was unwilling to obey God in the Garden of Eden! Men love the darkness rather than light and they will constantly turn from God. The natural man hates God and will not come to him unless that individual is acted upon by God first.

Let's unpack these ideas a bit. Prefallen Adam in the garden didn't exclusively "love darkness rather than light," nor did he exemplify the "natural man" such that he "needed to be acted upon by God first" under the theoretical schema of Calvinist essentialism. His nature was good, yet he managed to will evil. Adam was "acted upon by God first," however, in that he was created as he was with the volitional powers God intended him to have.


Of course "Arminians" and "Free-Willers" think that you can just "Believe" but the fact is, they themself have a desire for God and thats because God put it in their hearts and yet they reject half of it. They will say, "Yes God did, but I still had to choose." It's like a 50/50!

More parodies. Before you tell others what Arminians and advocates of LFW think, you would do well to educate yourself and learn what they in fact do think and say. Yet---do you mean to tell us that you have personally made no choices at all within your relationship to God?


Then you have people that are labeled, "Calvinist" and im proud to be labeled that because thats the truth! We give God 100% Glory.

Well, if that's the TRUTH, then I suppose we'd all better just acquiesce....


Then you have all these weird things like, LFW, Determinism and everything to make your brain go BONKERS!! [QUOTE]

Trouble is, these brainbonkering things are often perpetuated by the very Calvinism you're so proud of....

[QUOTE]
Why can't we just stick to the simple truths taught in scripture and believe it just the way it is.

But Samuel, every one of us here, whether Calvinist or Arminian, is (or should be) honestly trying before God to grasp the truths of scripture and believe them.


We tell people to repent and believe because there totally depraved sinners that need a savior

This is scriptural!


and if they come to the Lord then we know that God has done a work in there heart to allow them to do such a thing! Then God gets the glory in there salvation and then that person is secure forever and will never fall from God's hand.

But these ideas remain open for debate on some level.


Anyways, I was reading earlier and found out that.. Theoligians are clever devils with sound doctrine.. lol sounds true to me, especially with all the big words around here and such!!

Whether we express ourselves with big words or little, we are all just little men who need our Father in Heaven's mercy and love all the time. We need his mercy and love in the face of our finite ability to understand---which we have a tendency to cover up with pride and overtriumphalistic dogmatics at the expense of our disagreeing brothers for whom Christ died. "I am of Calvin!" "I of Arminius...." Are we not mere men? Are we not carnal?

Heaven help us....

[Samuel]

No Arminian or advocate of "free will" that I've ever heard of believes anything close to the parody you give us here.



For man to be unwilling, he must first have a will of some sort; you seem to think he has none....



Let's unpack these ideas a bit. Prefallen Adam in the garden didn't exclusively "love darkness rather than light," nor did he exemplify the "natural man" such that he "needed to be acted upon by God first" under the theoretical schema of Calvinist essentialism. His nature was good, yet he managed to will evil. Adam was "acted upon by God first," however, in that he was created as he was with the volitional powers God intended him to have.



More parodies. Before you tell others what Arminians and advocates of LFW think, you would do well to educate yourself and learn what they in fact do think and say. Yet---do you mean to tell us that you have personally made no choices at all within your relationship to God?



Well, if that's the TRUTH, then I suppose we'd all better just acquiesce....

[QUOTE]
Then you have all these weird things like, LFW, Determinism and everything to make your brain go BONKERS!! [QUOTE]

Trouble is, these brainbonkering things are often perpetuated by the very Calvinism you're so proud of....



But Samuel, every one of us here, whether Calvinist or Arminian, is (or should be) honestly trying before God to grasp the truths of scripture and believe them.



This is scriptural!



But these ideas remain open for debate on some level.



Whether we express ourselves with big words or little, we are all just little men who need our Father in Heaven's mercy and love all the time. We need his mercy and love in the face of our finite ability to understand---which we have a tendency to cover up with pride and overtriumphalistic dogmatics at the expense of our disagreeing brothers for whom Christ died. "I am of Calvin!" "I of Arminius...." Are we not mere men? Are we not carnal?

Heaven help us....

The truth is, Arminianism steals God's glory! The truth hurts.

[john-philip]

I find it most odd when the "Arminian" or "Free-Willers" think God would be unfair for not saving everyone.

Name three Arminians who you have heard say that.

Name one Arminian scholar, who is not a universalist, who has said this.

[GoBahnsen]

Samuel, pereynol is a nice guy. Give him a chance and get to know him. As much as I agree with Calvinism, I don't think we should be so loud about it. We should seek to be winsome. I appreciate your Reformed voice here, but I think you have your zeal too far out in front of yourself. Don't mean to embarrass you, but I think its time you reel in some and have more give and take. (like you're one to talk GB...Mr. loud mouth. "who said that?")

The stereo typical Calvinist is haughty and comes off like he is superior to others. If our doctrine is superior, then let it speak for itself. It takes time. Trying to convince non Calvinists of their errors (if indeed that be the case) in one week or less, will only gender strife.

Look, I've been here almost a year, and right now Sheepdog, Xavier and Jaltus are almost ready to crack. But it's been because of a steady and slow chipping away, right guys? Dee Dee is now a closet Calvinist (I think) and so we just have to be patient. Even yxboom is coming around, right boom?

[john-philip]

Look, I've been here almost a year, and right now Sheepdog, Xavier and Jaltus are almost ready to crack. But it's been because of a steady and slow chipping away, right guys? Dee Dee is now a closet Calvinist (I think) and so we just have to be patient. Even yxboom is coming around, right boom?

:lmbo:


I think Ormly is coming around too... :eek:

[lee_merrill]

"I am of Calvin!" "I of Arminius...." Are we not mere men? Are we not carnal?

That's pretty good, Pereynol. And pretty bad, alas, mea culprit...

[Adam's] nature was good, yet he managed to will evil. Adam was "acted upon by God first," however, in that he was created as he was with the volitional powers God intended him to have.

Adam is a bit of a special case, though, I'm not sure he's an example of a glorified believer, and all would indeed agree he was not formed in sin like we are.

Yet---do you mean to tell us that you have personally made no choices at all within your relationship to God?

Not to speak for Samuel, but I do believe believers can really choose. I would ask a question for "general free-will" folks, who believe unbelievers can really choose, if Christ sets people free, how is it they can really choose?

John 8:36 So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.

Doesn't "set free" imply "were not free" here, in any real sense?

Samuel: ... and if they come to the Lord then we know that God has done a work in their heart to allow them to do such a thing!

Pereynol: But these ideas remain open for debate on some level.

Maybe a good place to start would be on whether unbelievers can really choose, as Samuel has suggested doing here in this thread...

Blessings,
Lee

P.S. Chip, chip, hooray! Actually... Someone just asked me about my Internet theologizing, and er, asked me if I had convinced anyone. (Lee thinks for a bit) ... nope! Can't think of anyone, but I'm also not easily discouraged!

P.P.S. Come to think of it, I do know someone who changed his views ... me!

[GoBahnsen]

:lmbo:


I think Ormly is coming around too... :eek:Of course he is...and I forgot to mention that. Thanks John.

[john-philip]

No Problem :teeth:

[GoBahnsen]

No Problem :teeth:Of course I'm just trying to get to 3000 posts tonight, so no one need pay me any mind.

[Pereynol of Sheer Dread]

The truth is, Arminianism steals God's glory! The truth hurts.

I don't think that Arminianism "steals God's glory," and I don't believe that there's any pain associated with this way of reasoning. In any event, you didn't hurt me. This kind of talk has nearly zero persuasive power. (No disrespect intended.)

But I do appreciate where you're coming from, Samuel. And I also appreciate GB's kind words. Folks like him and Lee always have well-thought things to say, and conversing with them here is a privilege as well as a blessing. "All things are yours...." We belong to each other in Christ, whether Arminians or Calvinists. (---don't mean to be too warm and fuzzy...)

:blush:

[micah4]

The truth is, Arminianism steals God's glory! The truth hurts.

I thought about trying to steal God's glory once, but I figured it would be safer just to pick it up second hand from the pawn shop that fences the stuff after Arminianism does the dirty work.

[john-philip]

I thought about trying to steal God's glory once, but I figured it would be safer just to pick it up second hand from the pawn shop that fences the stuff after Arminianism does the dirty work.

Make sure the serial code has been scratched out.

[KantankerousKid]

Samuel, pereynol is a nice guy. Give him a chance and get to know him. As much as I agree with Calvinism, I don't think we should be so loud about it. We should seek to be winsome. I appreciate your Reformed voice here, but I think you have your zeal too far out in front of yourself. Don't mean to embarrass you, but I think its time you reel in some and have more give and take. (like you're one to talk GB...Mr. loud mouth. "who said that?")

The stereo typical Calvinist is haughty and comes off like he is superior to others. If our doctrine is superior, then let it speak for itself. It takes time. Trying to convince non Calvinists of their errors (if indeed that be the case) in one week or less, will only gender strife.

Look, I've been here almost a year, and right now Sheepdog, Xavier and Jaltus are almost ready to crack. But it's been because of a steady and slow chipping away, right guys? Dee Dee is now a closet Calvinist (I think) and so we just have to be patient. Even yxboom is coming around, right boom?

Very nice advise. That actually spoke to me too. I better shut my mouth. :)