Samuel
March 26th 2005, 08:18 PM
All my resources are obtained through http://en.wikipedia.org
You don't think Arminianism "steals God's glory." I think it does. I think it steals Gods glory because of these 5 points:
Conditional Election: God has decreed to save through Jesus Christ, out of fallen and sinful mankind, those foreknown by Him who through the grace of the Holy Spirit believe in Christ; but God leaves in sin those foreseen, who are incorrigible and unbelieving.
Universal Atonement: Christ's death was suffered on behalf of all men, but God elects for salvation only those who believe in Christ.
Free Will with Partial Depravity: Freedom of will is man's natural state, not a spiritual gift - and thus free will was not lost in the Fall. The grace of Christ works upon all men to influence them for good, but only those who freely choose to agree with grace by faith and repentance are given new spiritual power to make effectual the good they otherwise impotently intend. Wesley revised this view, stating that humans were in fact totally depraved and completely corrupted by original sin, but that God's prevenient grace allowed free will to operate.
Resistible Grace: The grace of God works for good in all men, and brings about newness of life through faith. But grace can be resisted even by the regenerate.
Uncertain Perseverance:Those who are incorporated into Christ by a true faith have power given them through the assisting grace of the Holy Spirit, sufficient to enable them to persevere in the faith. But it may be possible for a believer to fall from grace.
vs these 5 scriptural points:
Total Depravity
People in their natural, unregenerate state do not have the ability to turn to God. Rather it is the grace and will of God through the Spirit that causes men who are dead in sin to be reborn through the Word.
Romans 3:10-11 "None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God."
John 6:44 "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day."
1 Corinthians 2:14 "But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them."
Unconditional Election
Election means "choice". God's choice from eternity, of whom He will bring to Himself, is not based on foreseen virtue, merit or faith in the persons He chooses but rather, is unconditionally grounded in His own mercy.
Romans 9:16 "So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy."
Ephesians 1:4 "Even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him."
John 1:13 "born not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God."
Recommended book "Chosen by God" by R.C. Sproul ISBN 0842313354
Limited Atonement
Also called "particular redemption" or "definite atonement" meaning that, Christ's death actually takes away the penalty of sins committed by those upon whom God has chosen to have mercy. (As opposed to Christ's death making redemption merely a possibility that we can perform). It is "limited" then, to taking away the sins of the elect.
John 10:15 "I lay down my life for the sheep."
Acts 20:28 "shepherd the church of God that He obtained with the blood of His own Son."
Ephesians 5:25 "love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her."
Recommended book "Death of Death" by John Owen ISBN 0851513824
Irresistible Grace
The saving grace of God is not resistible. Those who obtain salvation do so because of the relentlessness of God's mercy. Men yield to grace, not finally because God found their consciences more tender or their faith more tenacious than other men. Rather, willingness and ability to do God's will, are evidence of God's faithfulness to save men from the power and the penalty of sin.
John 15:16 "You did not choose me, but I chose you."
Ephesians 1:11 "In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will."
1 Thessalonians 1:4-5 "For we know, brothers loved by God, that he has chosen you, because our gospel came to you not only in word, but also in power and in the Holy Spirit."
Romans 9:11 "though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad- in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of his call."
Colossians 2:13 "When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him."
Perseverance of the Saints
Also called the "Preservation of the Saints". Those whom God has called into communion with Himself through Christ, will continue in faith and will increase in faith and other gifts, until the end. Those who apparently fall away, either never had true faith to begin with, or else will return. Thus Calvinists subscribe to the "once saved, always saved" concept popular among many Christian denominations.
John 10:27-28 "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish."
1 John 2:19 "They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us."
Philippians 1:6 "And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ."
and im totally against hyper-Calvinism:
Calvinism has frequently appeared in various forms, which are called "hyper-Calvinism" by critics of that version of doctrine, on the supposition that it is a corrupted form of Calvinism. Hyper-Calvinism is not necessarily believed by anyone (indeed, it can't be believed in all of its varieties); it is a label applied to any extrapolation of a point of Calvinism which undermines the theological system, sometimes mistakenly attributed to Calvinism by critics. The name "hyper-Calvinism" is also applied to beyond-orthodox reform movements, which attempt to improve Calvinism by removing perceived inconsistencies. Many Calvinists may reject hyper-Calvinistic beliefs as destructive to the Christian faith, such as:
that God is the source of sin and of evil
that God from all eternity has acted to irresistibly compel men toward sin and unbelief, just as he pursues those upon whom he desires to have mercy
that men have no will of their own, and secondary causes are of no effect
that the number of the elect at any time may be known by men
that it is wrong to evangelize
that assurance of election must be sought prior to repentance and faith
that men who have once sincerely professed belief are saved regardless of what they later do
that God has chosen some races of men and has rejected others
that the children of unbelievers dying in infancy are certainly damned
that God does not command everyone to repent
that the sacraments are not means of grace, but obstacles to salvation by faith alone.
that the true church is only invisible, and salvation is not connected with the visible church
that the Scriptures are intended to be interpreted by individuals only and not by the church.
that no government is to be obeyed which does not acknowledge that Jesus is the Lord, or that Biblical Law is its source of authority
that the grace of God does not work for the betterment of all men
that saving faith is equivalent to belief in the doctrine of predestination
that only Calvinists are Christians
Of course, there are Calvinists who believe that these are not caricatures of Calvinism and conscientiously hold to some of them in the belief that these are a logical outworking of their faith. Such Calvinists vigorously object to being called "hyper-Calvinist".
Last but not least:
The substance of Calvinism is total dependence on God. Every good thing any person has is there because of God's unmerited grace, and salvation is particularly dependent on grace. Calvinism is intentionally such that all credit, for everything, must go directly to God; humans are but miserable sinners. The "solas" exist to keep all the credit where it belongs, and to exclude any illicit additions such as those the Reformers claimed Catholics had made. The five solas were the summary of Calvinism, indeed of the Reformation, before the Framing of TULIP
Lets debate! :wink:
You don't think Arminianism "steals God's glory." I think it does. I think it steals Gods glory because of these 5 points:
Conditional Election: God has decreed to save through Jesus Christ, out of fallen and sinful mankind, those foreknown by Him who through the grace of the Holy Spirit believe in Christ; but God leaves in sin those foreseen, who are incorrigible and unbelieving.
Universal Atonement: Christ's death was suffered on behalf of all men, but God elects for salvation only those who believe in Christ.
Free Will with Partial Depravity: Freedom of will is man's natural state, not a spiritual gift - and thus free will was not lost in the Fall. The grace of Christ works upon all men to influence them for good, but only those who freely choose to agree with grace by faith and repentance are given new spiritual power to make effectual the good they otherwise impotently intend. Wesley revised this view, stating that humans were in fact totally depraved and completely corrupted by original sin, but that God's prevenient grace allowed free will to operate.
Resistible Grace: The grace of God works for good in all men, and brings about newness of life through faith. But grace can be resisted even by the regenerate.
Uncertain Perseverance:Those who are incorporated into Christ by a true faith have power given them through the assisting grace of the Holy Spirit, sufficient to enable them to persevere in the faith. But it may be possible for a believer to fall from grace.
vs these 5 scriptural points:
Total Depravity
People in their natural, unregenerate state do not have the ability to turn to God. Rather it is the grace and will of God through the Spirit that causes men who are dead in sin to be reborn through the Word.
Romans 3:10-11 "None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God."
John 6:44 "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day."
1 Corinthians 2:14 "But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them."
Unconditional Election
Election means "choice". God's choice from eternity, of whom He will bring to Himself, is not based on foreseen virtue, merit or faith in the persons He chooses but rather, is unconditionally grounded in His own mercy.
Romans 9:16 "So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy."
Ephesians 1:4 "Even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him."
John 1:13 "born not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God."
Recommended book "Chosen by God" by R.C. Sproul ISBN 0842313354
Limited Atonement
Also called "particular redemption" or "definite atonement" meaning that, Christ's death actually takes away the penalty of sins committed by those upon whom God has chosen to have mercy. (As opposed to Christ's death making redemption merely a possibility that we can perform). It is "limited" then, to taking away the sins of the elect.
John 10:15 "I lay down my life for the sheep."
Acts 20:28 "shepherd the church of God that He obtained with the blood of His own Son."
Ephesians 5:25 "love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her."
Recommended book "Death of Death" by John Owen ISBN 0851513824
Irresistible Grace
The saving grace of God is not resistible. Those who obtain salvation do so because of the relentlessness of God's mercy. Men yield to grace, not finally because God found their consciences more tender or their faith more tenacious than other men. Rather, willingness and ability to do God's will, are evidence of God's faithfulness to save men from the power and the penalty of sin.
John 15:16 "You did not choose me, but I chose you."
Ephesians 1:11 "In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will."
1 Thessalonians 1:4-5 "For we know, brothers loved by God, that he has chosen you, because our gospel came to you not only in word, but also in power and in the Holy Spirit."
Romans 9:11 "though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad- in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of his call."
Colossians 2:13 "When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him."
Perseverance of the Saints
Also called the "Preservation of the Saints". Those whom God has called into communion with Himself through Christ, will continue in faith and will increase in faith and other gifts, until the end. Those who apparently fall away, either never had true faith to begin with, or else will return. Thus Calvinists subscribe to the "once saved, always saved" concept popular among many Christian denominations.
John 10:27-28 "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish."
1 John 2:19 "They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us."
Philippians 1:6 "And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ."
and im totally against hyper-Calvinism:
Calvinism has frequently appeared in various forms, which are called "hyper-Calvinism" by critics of that version of doctrine, on the supposition that it is a corrupted form of Calvinism. Hyper-Calvinism is not necessarily believed by anyone (indeed, it can't be believed in all of its varieties); it is a label applied to any extrapolation of a point of Calvinism which undermines the theological system, sometimes mistakenly attributed to Calvinism by critics. The name "hyper-Calvinism" is also applied to beyond-orthodox reform movements, which attempt to improve Calvinism by removing perceived inconsistencies. Many Calvinists may reject hyper-Calvinistic beliefs as destructive to the Christian faith, such as:
that God is the source of sin and of evil
that God from all eternity has acted to irresistibly compel men toward sin and unbelief, just as he pursues those upon whom he desires to have mercy
that men have no will of their own, and secondary causes are of no effect
that the number of the elect at any time may be known by men
that it is wrong to evangelize
that assurance of election must be sought prior to repentance and faith
that men who have once sincerely professed belief are saved regardless of what they later do
that God has chosen some races of men and has rejected others
that the children of unbelievers dying in infancy are certainly damned
that God does not command everyone to repent
that the sacraments are not means of grace, but obstacles to salvation by faith alone.
that the true church is only invisible, and salvation is not connected with the visible church
that the Scriptures are intended to be interpreted by individuals only and not by the church.
that no government is to be obeyed which does not acknowledge that Jesus is the Lord, or that Biblical Law is its source of authority
that the grace of God does not work for the betterment of all men
that saving faith is equivalent to belief in the doctrine of predestination
that only Calvinists are Christians
Of course, there are Calvinists who believe that these are not caricatures of Calvinism and conscientiously hold to some of them in the belief that these are a logical outworking of their faith. Such Calvinists vigorously object to being called "hyper-Calvinist".
Last but not least:
The substance of Calvinism is total dependence on God. Every good thing any person has is there because of God's unmerited grace, and salvation is particularly dependent on grace. Calvinism is intentionally such that all credit, for everything, must go directly to God; humans are but miserable sinners. The "solas" exist to keep all the credit where it belongs, and to exclude any illicit additions such as those the Reformers claimed Catholics had made. The five solas were the summary of Calvinism, indeed of the Reformation, before the Framing of TULIP
Lets debate! :wink: