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bling
12-08-2014, 09:27 AM
Christ Crucified

1. Is Christ Crucified described by Paul, Peter, Jesus, John and the Hebrew writer as a ransom type payment?

2. Paul preached 18 months in Corinth and said: 1 Cor. 2: 2 For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. So did Paul preach every time on Christ crucified or some on Christ crucified and some on just Christ?

3. Christ said before his actual death: “It is finished” so was the crucifixion finished or is the going to be with God (death) included in the dying on the cross?

4. Can you preach: “Christ crucified” and not mention at least one of the following: atonement, atoning sacrifice, ransom, propitiation, expiation, crucified and/or redemption?

5. How is “preaching a proclaiming of Christ Crucified” differ from “preaching Christ crucified”?

6. When was the last time you heard a sermon on “Christ Crucified”? What was said and how often is the subject preached in your church?

7. Is an understanding of Christ crucified an understanding of the milk of the gospel or is it a meaty subject? Why?

8. How much does the fact that there are only “theories” to explain atonement keep preachers from addressing the subject?

9. Does your denomination have an “explanation” everyone agrees on for atonement?

10. What do we learn or not learn about God, Love, Christ, sin, forgiveness, redemption, justification, righteousness, being made holy and the new covenant, by not truly understanding the atonement sacrifice?

KingsGambit
12-08-2014, 09:34 AM
Forgive me for not getting to the whole list, but I'd like to focus on #3. This is kind of a difficult passage but my understanding is that he meant it would be finished with his imminent death within the next few seconds. (Otherwise, when would he say it? Nobody was around to hear him at the actual moment of resurrection.)

I'm not focusing on the others because at this point in time I have no firm conclusions about what atonement metaphor (if any) is best.

Bill the Cat
12-08-2014, 09:53 AM
Not sure this belongs in Apologetics. Were you wanting Christian only response, or a free-for-all?

Paprika
12-08-2014, 10:09 AM
I'm not focusing on the others because at this point in time I have no firm conclusions about what atonement metaphor (if any) is best.
All of them.

Christianbookworm
12-08-2014, 10:16 AM
All of them.

:huh: Aren't some analogies modalistic?

KingsGambit
12-08-2014, 10:18 AM
:huh: Aren't some analogies modalistic?

Yes, but I think he meant in terms of those listed in the OP.

KingsGambit
12-08-2014, 10:20 AM
#4 seems like a straightforward "yes", by the way. We see a number of examples of evangelism in the NT and I do not believe all use the equivalents of any such words.

Paprika
12-08-2014, 10:21 AM
:huh: Aren't some analogies modalistic?
I meant all the Scriptural ones :wink:

But on to serious matters:


This is kind of a difficult passage but my understanding is that he meant it would be finished with his imminent death within the next few seconds. (Otherwise, when would he say it? Nobody was around to hear him at the actual moment of resurrection.)
Reading the context in the Greek makes it clear (imo) that the primary meaning isn't "I'm going to die soon" but that what had been promised and planned has been completed, fulfilled:

Μετὰ τοῦτο εἰδὼς ὁ Ἰησοῦς ὅτι ἤδη πάντα τετέλεσται (ἵνα τελειωθῇ ἡ γραφή), λέγει· διψῶ. σκεῦος ἔκειτο ὄξους μεστόν· σπόγγον οὖν μεστὸν τοῦ ὄξους ὑσσώπῳ περιθέντες προσήνεγκαν αὐτοῦ τῷ στόματι. ὅτε οὖν ἔλαβεν τὸ ὄξος [ὁ] Ἰησοῦς εἶπεν· τετέλεσται

After this Jesus, realizing that by this time everything was completed, said (in order to fulfill the scripture), “I am thirsty!” A jar full of sour wine was there, so they put a sponge soaked in sour wine on a branch of hyssop and lifted it to his mouth. When he had received the sour wine, Jesus said, “It is completed!”

KingsGambit
12-08-2014, 10:30 AM
I meant all the Scriptural ones :wink:

But on to serious matters:


Reading the context in the Greek makes it clear (imo) that the primary meaning isn't "I'm going to die soon" but that what had been promised and planned has been completed, fulfilled:

Μετὰ τοῦτο εἰδὼς ὁ Ἰησοῦς ὅτι ἤδη πάντα τετέλεσται (ἵνα τελειωθῇ ἡ γραφή), λέγει· διψῶ. σκεῦος ἔκειτο ὄξους μεστόν· σπόγγον οὖν μεστὸν τοῦ ὄξους ὑσσώπῳ περιθέντες προσήνεγκαν αὐτοῦ τῷ στόματι. ὅτε οὖν ἔλαβεν τὸ ὄξος [ὁ] Ἰησοῦς εἶπεν· τετέλεσται

After this Jesus, realizing that by this time everything was completed, said (in order to fulfill the scripture), “I am thirsty!” A jar full of sour wine was there, so they put a sponge soaked in sour wine on a branch of hyssop and lifted it to his mouth. When he had received the sour wine, Jesus said, “It is completed!”

Which completed promise do you mean? Do you mean the general thrust of what had been prophesied, or the specific OT term appropriated in a messianic manner? (I presume you mean the former as the latter stance seems difficult given the nature of OT typology in the NT.)

Paprika
12-08-2014, 10:38 AM
Which completed promise do you mean? Do you mean the general thrust of what had been prophesied, or the specific OT term appropriated in a messianic manner? (I presume you mean the former as the latter stance seems difficult given the nature of OT typology in the NT.)
The former. But it's not just about promise- I'll just quote the notes to the NET translation of John 17:4 here:

Or “by finishing” or “by accomplishing.” Jesus now states that he has glorified the Father on earth by finishing (τελειώσας [teleiwsas] is best understood as an adverbial participle of means) the work which the Father had given him to do.

sn By completing the work. The idea of Jesus being sent into the world on a mission has been mentioned before, significantly in 3:17. It was even alluded to in the immediately preceding verse here (17:3). The completion of the “work” the Father had sent him to accomplish was mentioned by Jesus in 4:34 and 5:36. What is the nature of the “work” the Father has given the Son to accomplish? It involves the Son’s mission to be the Savior of the world, as 3:17 indicates. But this is accomplished specifically through Jesus’ sacrificial death on the cross (a thought implied by the reference to the Father “giving” the Son in 3:16). It is not without significance that Jesus’ last word from the cross is “It is completed” (19:30).

bling
12-08-2014, 11:52 AM
#4 seems like a straightforward "yes", by the way. We see a number of examples of evangelism in the NT and I do not believe all use the equivalents of any such words.

I do not think every sermon would be a "Christ Crucified" sermon, especially to those that did not know about Christ. Most of the letters are not sermons, but would have been read as soon as they arrived.

bling
12-08-2014, 11:56 AM
I meant all the Scriptural ones :wink:

But on to serious matters:


Reading the context in the Greek makes it clear (imo) that the primary meaning isn't "I'm going to die soon" but that what had been promised and planned has been completed, fulfilled:

Μετὰ τοῦτο εἰδὼς ὁ Ἰησοῦς ὅτι ἤδη πάντα τετέλεσται (ἵνα τελειωθῇ ἡ γραφή), λέγει· διψῶ. σκεῦος ἔκειτο ὄξους μεστόν· σπόγγον οὖν μεστὸν τοῦ ὄξους ὑσσώπῳ περιθέντες προσήνεγκαν αὐτοῦ τῷ στόματι. ὅτε οὖν ἔλαβεν τὸ ὄξος [ὁ] Ἰησοῦς εἶπεν· τετέλεσται

After this Jesus, realizing that by this time everything was completed, said (in order to fulfill the scripture), “I am thirsty!” A jar full of sour wine was there, so they put a sponge soaked in sour wine on a branch of hyssop and lifted it to his mouth. When he had received the sour wine, Jesus said, “It is completed!”

There is the pain and suffering Christ went through, but would death itself have been painful?

Christianbookworm
12-08-2014, 11:59 AM
There is the pain and suffering Christ went through, but would death itself have been painful?

Asphyxiation doesn't sound pleasant.

Paprika
12-09-2014, 03:38 AM
There is the pain and suffering Christ went through, but would death itself have been painful?
No clue. When I can I'll let you know.

bling
12-09-2014, 08:55 AM
Asphyxiation doesn't sound pleasant.

Is that part of death or dying on the cross before the actual death?

bling
12-09-2014, 08:56 AM
No clue. When I can I'll let you know.
Some people came back from the dead, did they complain about their death?

Paprika
12-09-2014, 09:20 AM
Some people came back from the dead, did they complain about their death?
I don't know. Why are you so focused on the pain and the suffering?

Christianbookworm
12-09-2014, 09:22 AM
Shame! A shameful death, right? Dunno why we be so obseesed with pain...

Bill the Cat
12-09-2014, 09:35 AM
Not sure this belongs in Apologetics. Were you wanting Christian only response, or a free-for-all?

Hey Bling...