Rising Gas Prices and Alternative Fuels

[Teallaura]

Under the heading of better to light a candle than curse the darkness, I believe with gas prices rising as steeply as they have been, now is the perfect time to lobby for the use of alternative fuels. Ethanol can be used in most private vehicles now on the road; biodiesel can be used by commercial vehicles with little or no modification. Why wait until fuel cells actually become practical when we can take significant steps toward a reduced dependence on fossil fuels now?

Here are some web sites that may be of use, should you agree:


Info on ethanol and the business of ethanol. Includes feature to send letters to your representatives:
http://www.ethanol.org/

Station locator and other info:
http://www.eere.energy.gov/afdc/index.html

Info on Biodiesel:
http://www.biodiesel.org/

[nomad]

why do you need to lobby for it? if you need it, you can go buy one. that's the libertarian in me speaking at least :) or are you looking to have the government make someone open ethanol service stations? or maybe open some themselves? or make car companies sell cars that can use them (which isn't really necessary, ethanol and biodiesel can both be used in our cars (for gas and diesel respectively of course). i've even heard of used fryer oil being used in the UK ;) what would you lobby for?

my next car will be a hybrid though, i think...

[Teallaura]

The obvious answer is that petroleum already enjoys a number of subsidies/incentives so to compete alternative fuels need some of the same considerations. Also, unlike petroleum, the infrastructure is not fully in place for alternative fuels. The high costs associated with such infrastructure need some form of mitigation if producers are going to make serious efforts to increase that infrastructure.

Besides, government incentives are the American Way! :wink:

[Undomiel]

Under the heading of better to light a candle than curse the darkness, I believe with gas prices rising as steeply as they have been, now is the perfect time to lobby for the use of alternative fuels. Ethanol can be used in most private vehicles now on the road; biodiesel can be used by commercial vehicles with little or no modification. Why wait until fuel cells actually become practical when we can take significant steps toward a reduced dependence on fossil fuels now?

Here are some web sites that may be of use, should you agree:


Info on ethanol and the business of ethanol. Includes feature to send letters to your representatives:
http://www.ethanol.org/

Station locator and other info:
http://www.eere.energy.gov/afdc/index.html

Info on Biodiesel:
http://www.biodiesel.org/


What I like about ethanol is that it encourages the growth of american farm industries (gotta have corn), while providing cheaper fuel with less harmful effects to the environment. A triple positive.

[nomad]

uhh... i don't have all the numbers and everything, but just because it's 'natural' doesn't mean it's automatically a win. it depends on how you do the farming (how many pesticides/fertilizers do you need to get your yield? etc) and what you farm. i suppose even if it's not cheaper now, it would be eventually once everyone starts growing corn (or other biomass, actually corn is supposedly not the best choice, it's just what they were already growing so they tried it or something like that).

also, some reports say that ethanol actually increases smog-producing pollutants (at least when combined with gas; not sure about when run by itself).

ahh what the heck here i am yammering on about environmental concerns when that wasn't the point. yeah, i don't know how much we'd have to farm to produce enough gas for all the cars (i think glenn morton had some grim estimates) but i suppose any reduction on foriegn oil dependency would be good.

[Undomiel]

uhh... i don't have all the numbers and everything, but just because it's 'natural' doesn't mean it's automatically a win. it depends on how you do the farming (how many pesticides/fertilizers do you need to get your yield? etc) and what you farm. i suppose even if it's not cheaper now, it would be eventually once everyone starts growing corn (or other biomass, actually corn is supposedly not the best choice, it's just what they were already growing so they tried it or something like that).

also, some reports say that ethanol actually increases smog-producing pollutants (at least when combined with gas; not sure about when run by itself).

ahh what the heck here i am yammering on about environmental concerns when that wasn't the point. yeah, i don't know how much we'd have to farm to produce enough gas for all the cars (i think glenn morton had some grim estimates) but i suppose any reduction on foriegn oil dependency would be good.


Well to give you an idea: It was 25 cents per gallon in the states close to the farms where the corn was grown and processed into ethanol.

[Teallaura]

Myself, I don't think the long term answer to petroleum dependence is going to be found in any one source, but a multiple usage of alternative fuels. In my opinion you gotta start somewhere and these are the most immediately practicable. Electric, methane, LPS, and the like require major modifications to vehicles or new vehicles altogether. They just aren't immediately practical - not everyone could afford those changes. However, if you add them into the equation over time, allowing manufacturers and producers alike to overcome infrastructure and other short falls, I think the combination of alternatives might well significantly reduce petroleum dependence in the long term - and certainly change the face of the automobile and fuel industries forever.

[Sacrificial Ram]

why do you need to lobby for it? if you need it, you can go buy one. that's the libertarian in me speaking at least :) or are you looking to have the government make someone open ethanol service stations? or maybe open some themselves? or make car companies sell cars that can use them (which isn't really necessary, ethanol and biodiesel can both be used in our cars (for gas and diesel respectively of course). i've even heard of used fryer oil being used in the UK ;) what would you lobby for?

my next car will be a hybrid though, i think...

Hybrids are not currently up to the hype (getting there, and having people get them will help insure they get improved).

Me, I had the opportunity to start working at home, rather than drive 80 miles a day to/from work. I took it... and that has drastically reduced the amount of gas I used. (the extra two hours of travel time I am saving doesn't hurt either)

[nomad]

Hybrids are not currently up to the hype (getting there, and having people get them will help insure they get improved).


really? what do you find wrong with them? we have a TWeb Testimonial (tm) of an insight owner (jimmy higgins, where are you? - err, it was an insight wasn't it?) getting 80mpg on driving including highway. my saab (which, with its turbo, at least TRIES) doesn't get even close to half of that.

really just curious.



Me, I had the opportunity to start working at home, rather than drive 80 miles a day to/from work. I took it... and that has drastically reduced the amount of gas I used. (the extra two hours of travel time I am saving doesn't hurt either)

i used to do that, for about 3 years... i would do it again in a heartbeat if i could :) and not just because of the travel time and the gas... my wife's a country girl at heart though and I'm an engineer so unless I work at home short commutes (distancewise, not necessary timewise) are probably out of the question...

[Sacrificial Ram]

really? what do you find wrong with them? we have a TWeb Testimonial ™ of an insight owner (jimmy higgins, where are you? - err, it was an insight wasn't it?) getting 80mpg on driving including highway. my saab (which, with its turbo, at least TRIES) doesn't get even close to half of that.
.

The mpg for city traffic is much less than advertised.

Here is an article about it from last year (http://www.wired.com/news/autotech/0,2554,63413,00.html?tw=wn_story_related)

[nomad]

hmm... i always thought hybrids would do better in city traffic than highway traffic; electric motors have their highest torque at 0 rpm (which explains jimmy's anecdotal experience, which said that you can the get the mileage, but you need to drive differently), plus you get a lot of recovery from the braking (if you accomodate it). but if they say otherwise... hmm...

[ih8censorship]

hm how about this http://www.greasecar.com/ although i do have to wonder if oil from fryed fish would be cheaper than oil from fryed doughnuts..... because i seem to think that your car would smell like the oil it was burning.... and i thought cars that burned oil were a bad thing! :teeth: :lol:

[Zarathustra]

If you are interested, there is a good movie out. It depicts the idea that cheap oil has peaked, and how this could have drastic effects on American suburbia.

It paints a pretty bleak picture, as it finds most of the alternatives to be unrealistic on the large scale.



Check it out:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0446320/

[Teallaura]

hm how about this http://www.greasecar.com/ although i do have to wonder if oil from fryed fish would be cheaper than oil from fryed doughnuts..... because i seem to think that your car would smell like the oil it was burning.... and i thought cars that burned oil were a bad thing! :teeth: :lol:


I'm so drooling over that! I want one!

[James Peter]

If you're burning pure ethanol all you're producing is carbon dioxide and water. The carbon dioxide you produce is simply that which the production takes out of the air anyway so there is no net increase in CO2 levels (unlike with fossil fuels). There are no other nasties like nitrates being produced by ethanol either which is a big plus.

If i remember rightly the best thing to grow is sugar cane - as they do in south america where cars run off ethanol. Sugar is much easier to turn into ethanol than complicated starch molecules...