Basic Theological Questions

[Vitae]

:) Hello, as you may notice, im rather new to this forum, though I have perused a number of threads and discussions.

My mother will be glad to be rid of me, at least this aspect :) I think she's grown tired having debates with me long into the night.

Regardless this is the beggining of many, and long questions I will have for you to answer. Here is the first.

On the discussion of Alchohol. In general society, of course depending on where you come from and what group of people you are in, is looked down upon as a "bad" substance. However I ask you, from a theological position what position should someone take. Is it ok to drink? Is it ok to spend a saturday night with your friends and drink? What about New Years?

An old girlfriend and I had many a long conversations about alchohol, neither really new what to say about it, we couldn't decide what position to take on drinking. And here are my arguments both ways about it.

First, parents say not to drink.. well mine havn't specificaly said do not drink, I know it's implied. The law dictates I don't drink, im 19. Health organizations say, it's bad for you yada yada.

Now, an issue that I have. In the bible there are many instances of the disciples drinking, and one scripture (Im horrible with scriptures but im trying) when the flames of christ touched them they came out and everyone thought they were still drunk from the partying they did the night before.

So now, I drink, occasionaly, I tend to have some wine, maybe a guiness. On special occasions i'll drink some more, and in the past I have drank.... way beyond what you should, albiet still less than most college kids (or highschoolers which was what I was at the time).

So...... i'd like to hear discussions about drinking. Digress!

-vitae

[spl_cadet]

Drinking isn't wrong, when conducted in moderation. After all, Jesus' first miracle was to turn water into wine. Drinking underage is wrong however, as is all violations of laws that are not unjust.

[James Peter]

Which is why its good to live in the UK and be allowed to drink as soon as you are considered old enough to vote. Or earlier if its with meals etc. I've never been drunk and have no plans on ever getting drunk, but alcohol is perfectly fine. Drunkeness is another topic though and that is certainly condemned. If you do things when you are drunk that you regret/know are wrong then you shouldn't be drinking. Is lowering your inhibitions really a good idea? I didn't start drinking until last year and I still drink very much in moderation. With that, there is nothing wrong.

[Chief of Staff Lizard]

Drinking isn't wrong, when conducted in moderation. After all, Jesus' first miracle was to turn water into wine. Drinking underage is wrong however, as is all violations of laws that are not unjust.

:yeahthat:

Please note that I do not drink for personal reasons (wife was raised in alcaholic family), so there is no "trying to justify" my "sin" at all.

However, I think that the bible clearly teaches that alcohol is a gift from God and should be enjoyed [ie "wine gladdens the heart" and other passages available on request] (with some exceptions, such as my case and for those underage for whom it is unlawful). Any one who says that you should not ever drink "less a weaker brother stumble" is taking those verses way out of context IMHO.

Living in the Southern USA it is almost always assumed that Christians just do not drink. And most evangelical churches teach this. I think that this is not only a violation of Christian liberty, but a direct contradiction of scripture. In 1 Tim. Paul warns about those who "forbid certain foods". Is this not what the teetotalers are doing? Forbidding alcohol?

I wrote a lengthy e-mail to a fried on this recently (with scripture references) and will be happy to share with anyone who may be interested. Just PM me.

[ElGato]

I think basically the issue is of proper conduct, behaving like a Christian. As everybody's said, drinking in moderation isn't a problem, at that point it's essentially just a beverage. But you have to remember that you're a representative of Christ on earth (that might be a really horrible way of saying it- if I just made myself a heathen, someone please tell me) and your conduct should reflect that you belong to him. So, getting really drunk is bad, but just drinking socially is fine. In moderate amounts it can be good for your health, it's only when you get really into it that your liver starts to lift the white flag.

Aren't there some verses from Proverbs that talk about this very thing? Drinking is good but drunkenness is bad?

[Berean Todd]

It has pretty well been covered, but basically drinking in moderation is fine, but drunkeness is always a sin. It is the same with almost anything - to overindulge it becomes sinful.

I don't have time to get into it right now, but there is a possible case to be made that hard alchohols are not ok, but that wine, beer, etc would be, but I do not personally hold that position.

[Cyrus of Persia]

There are actually at least few threads where it's deeply discussed:

http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?t=29485

and

http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?t=23869

I agree what is said here. As a moderate drinker (*lol*), i want to give a sign of warning what is not as much stressed here: use your liberty in Christ wisely, and not for developing the habit of drinking. Not much people are able to know their limits properly, and if you start to drink more and more eventually it starts to develop a dangerous habit until you get psychologically addicted to alcohol.

P.S. My last reading recently was Jack London's "John Barleycorn" where he describes his drinking habits. And while he still lives in illusions that he is master over his habit, it's still good introduction into dangers of John Barleycorn.

[Vitae]

Interesting, glad to see so many responces so soon.

Basicaly you've all said what ive already arrived upon. Some variances but basicaly the same. I would agree that drinking in excess, anything in excess is bad, though define excess, is drinking alot in one night excess, or does it take many occasions?

I also would question whether being drunk is a sin, as a occasion of being drunk I don't see as excess.

I agree with everyones comments on moderation, I think thats only given.

Drinking underage is wrong however, as is all violations of laws that are not unjust
What is your basis for this? Following secular laws? What if I think the law is unjust?


Im not debating with you guys, i'd like to make that clear, I just like to hear your reasoning so that I can examine it and decide if it's something I agree with or not.

thank you all -vitae

[Cyrus of Persia]

Drinking underage is wrong however, as is all violations of laws that are not unjust
What is your basis for this? Following secular laws? What if I think the law is unjust?


I started to drink underage. I don't say it's wrong to "try" beer, or wine underage, but if you start to drink underage there would be much more chances that you drink mindlessly. At least i remember that when i was teenager (i was not Christian then) when we went to drink with my friends, the purpose was to get drank, not to enjoy the drink. This is why we usually preferred vodka over soft drinks. I also happened to drink into black-out myself few times back then. As teenagers usually don't have much self-control (i say usually, because some teenagers can be pretty mature in their thinking), then it's more dangerous to let them drink than for adults. Besides alcohol is more dangerous for young organism than it is for adults.

[Jaltus]

The only time that a Christian has a right to act against the law is if that law is in direct violation of Christian beliefs. For example, Daniel was correct to pray to God when Babylonian law forbid it. Drinking underage, however, is not something which constitutes a Christian belief in this respect.

I personally do not drink and never have (alcohol kills brain cells, and my brain is the only thing I have going for me other than God). I think drinking is fine, as long as it is done both in moderation and lawfully.

[semmie]

alcohol kills brain cells, and my brain is the only thing I have going for me other than God:lol:

i agree with what everyone else has said: moderation and lawfulness. i would add, though, that for a christian, it can be wrong to willfully drink around those christians who have struggled with alcohol in the past. obviously we shouldn't be dictated by the struggles of others, but as believers, it's our responsibility not to be a stumbling block to those who have particular weaknesses. for me, this means not drinking (or even talking about drinking...or thinking about drinking) around my mother, as she is a former alcoholic.

[jason]

In general society, of course depending on where you come from and what group of people you are in, is looked down upon as a "bad" substance.
Your not an Australian then :wink:

To offer my take on it.

Drinking is fine, getting drunk is not, and you should know the difference.

As a good rule of thumb, when you think maybe you have had enough, or maybe you have gone to far, it is a fair bet you have.

Although one thing to keep in mind.

I don't really drink much anyway, never really acquired the taste, but if I had a brother or sister (well anyone really) that had a problem with alchol around I would never ever drink in their presence. That might cause them to stumble. By problem I mean alcholic as opposed to some types of wowsers.

Jason

[Vitae]

Found a qoute in ephesians that says do not become drunk from wine...... or there abouts. :) Sorry for my lacking in a exact qoute. Anyway, i think the point is clear, don't be a drunk.

Now something for the guys that said don't drink underage. Why? Why shouldn't I drink underage? I know there is a scripture that says we should follow all secular laws. Is this what your refering to? What would you say is the "universal" age for it?

-vitae