Christians Are Our Enemies?

[technomage]

"Christians Are Our Enemies"

The Myth

"For our enemies have devised a burning pit of everlasting fire into which they say their God casteth all the people who worship him, except it be the very few who are released by their Priests, spells and masses."
"The Old Law." Author Unknown, but widely assumed to be Gerald Gardner.

"The Christian right is by no means our only enemy; recognize what the church is and has always been, a tool in the hands of the powers of the world. It is by no means their only one"
"Wiccan History." Online Class. Herne

"Yet I feel violated when fundamentalists arrive with intent to spy upon us, to convert us, or to interfere with our activities."
Isaac Bonewits--The Enemy of My Enemies

It has long been assumed that Christians are "the enemy." They are frequently blamed for the Burning Times, accused of intolerance, and generally accused of all manner of ill will in Wiccan literature. Yet what is the truth of these accusations? What are the sources of the hostility? And is Christianity truly the "enemy," or have we created a nightmare projection of our own fears?

Roots of the Myth

Christian fear of witches started long before Gardner. While the only solid reference to witchcraft in New Testament scriptures is a statement that those who practice witchcraft "will not inherit the Kingdom of God (Gal. 5:20-21), Christians, like Pagans before them, feared the power and malice of "witches." Imperial Roman law spoke against "malefica," and Christians simply inherited the prohibitions when Christianity became the major cultural force in Europe. However, for all of the laws against it, witches were a fixture in the landscape. Many people practiced folk magic and charms, despite repeated prohibitions and penalties, and these witches flourished both in pre-Christian and Christian times.

The problems really started in the thirteenth century, when a series of plagues, economic disruptions, and changes in the social order swept Europe and engendered panic. Rumors of a conspiracy to expunge Christendom, variously blaming Muslims, Jews, lepers, various groups considered "heretical" by the Church, and/or witches, spread like wildfire, starting in the lower classes but spreading to the nobility and the clergy. While science and skepticism have put paid to the rumors for many people, these myths still exist in modern culture, and many of the accusations against "Witches" in today's press could have been pulled directly from the Witch-Hunting manuals of that time.

In the 1940s and 1950s, in this atmosphere of mingled skepticism and fear, Gardner published his books on Wicca, where he tried to connect his practices with the "witches" of the European panics. In doing so, he created the original notion that Christians were the enemies of Wicca, that they had already killed nine million people in the effort to stamp out this "competing religion," and that they would not hesitate to do so again.

Refuting The Myth

Many Wiccans are quite aware that Gardner's original history myth is false: the problem is that while many have rejected any historicity in the History Myth, many have not rejected the implication that Christians are our enemies--or, more significantly, that Wiccans are the enemies of Christians.

Between Wiccans and Christians, there is sometimes a tendency to suspicion, fear, and hostility--but there doesn't have to be. In these first years of the twenty-first century, Wicca is coming into its own. Some Wiccans are beginning to realize that not only do we have the opportunity to form a community within Wicca, but also to join the larger "community of faith." But we cannot do that when Christianity--one of the largest segments of that community--is considered an "enemy" by many.

It doesn't have to be this way. Yes, there are self-proclaimed Christians who believe that we are the "enemy," and that we should be wiped off the face of the earth: these are a small but vocal minority, and many Wiccans do not realize that most mainstream and fundamentalist Christians oppose the violence of the few.

Reasons For The Myth

The Need for an "Enemy"

When Gardner originally devised Wicca, he created a history myth that included those accused of being "witches" in European history. This created an environment of secrecy and caution, which he desired. Unfortunately, it also created an environment of fear and suspicion. In his history myth, the "Christians" were decidedly the "bad guys," and he repeatedly warns against stirring up the Christians, lest the "Burning Times" start again.

Many new Wiccans, especially those that come out of Christianity in a less than friendly manner, frequently add hostility and rebellion to this bad cocktail of emotions. The "newbie" Wiccan who spends far too much time and energy decrying the supposed evils of "xianity" is so prevalent as to be almost stereotypical. The fact that many Wiccans never outgrow this phase only makes the matter worse.

This is not to say that Christian treatment of Wiccans and Pagans has always merited respect. There are self-proclaimed "Christians" out there who disrespect, slander, and harass Wiccans, others who would like to do nothing less than forcibly convert Wiccans and other non-Christians, and a few who believe that the Witch Persecutions of European history were a good thing, and should be started again: though exceedingly vocal, "Christians" of this variety are a minority in Christendom. The problem occurs when Wiccans fail to realize that these so-called "Christians" are not living up to the real precepts of their faith, or try to paint all Christians with this broad and unflattering brush.

"Honest" Hostility

There are certain Judeo-Christian teachings that are incompatible with Neo-Paganism: indeed, they are incompatible with any other religion whatsoever. The "First Commandment" of the Judeo-Christian Ten Commandments, "Thou shalt have no other Gods before me," reflects this teaching: a strict interpretation of their scriptures would lead any reasonable person to understand that our ways are not compatible with theirs. For the Hebrews, this was not an optional suggestion: it was one of the foundations of the Abrahamic Covenant. The Covenant was a promise between Adonai and the Hebrews: basically, God was saying "As a people, you belong to Me. Keep My commandments, and I will bless you; break them, and I will remove those blessings, and punish you." Many Christians see themselves as "adopted" into this covenant, and therefore as under some of the same religious restrictions.

Incompatibility is one issue: hostility is quite another, but even here, there is Scriptural precedent in the verse that teaches "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live." While there has been some argument on the translation of "witch," (including the--erroneous--belief that the original word meant "one who kills with poison"), this and other sources show clearly that the Hebrews are not to have anything to do with magic. Either way, it should be realized that witches and Wiccans are not going to be welcome in orthodox Jewish communities: by extension, those Christians who see themselves as partaking of the Abrahamic Covenant are going to be just as unwilling to live among witches. In our current secular government, while those who follow Judaism and Christianity are forbidden to kill witches, they are certainly not obliged to agree with them.

Now we come to an ethical quandary. Most Wiccans would be highly offended if someone came along and said "Your practice of your religion offends me: you must stop it," yet some Wiccans and Neo-Pagans take the battle-cry that "Christians must respect Wiccans, Witches, and Pagans." While Christians can respect Wiccans as people (and most do), Christians are not in a position where they can respect Wicca. This is contrary to their faith--it is not that mainstream and fundamentalists Christians do not want to respect Wicca, it is the simple fact that if they are to remain true to their faith, they can't.

Propaganda and False History

A lot of the fear, hostility, and anger--on both sides--starts with bad history. Wiccans have their History Myth, while Christians have the superstitions that they inherited from pre-Christian Europeans.

On the Wiccan side, the History Myth is probably the biggest disservice that Gardner did to Wicca when he wrote his books. Gardner wanted an exoteric reason to motivate Wiccans towards silence and keeping secrets: both of these are esoterically important, but it is my view that Gardner's use of the History Myth has done far more damage than the good it was intended to do.

Conclusion

There are individual "Christians" who counsel violence against Wiccans, but this is not the majority. Most Christians are willing to respect the rights of Wiccans, even if they disagree on theological and religious grounds. Yes, it is incumbent upon us to be aware of those few who are willing to break the law--not to mention willing to violate their own Scripture--to express their hate, but this wariness should not be the total of our relationship with those of other faiths.

Instead of viewing Christians as "the enemy," I see them as an opportunity to live by my ethics, even among those who may disagree with those ethics. It is only by engagement with the "mainstream" culture that we can hope to have a place in modern society. If we see Christians--a large portion of the mainstream culture--as "the enemy," then we not only lose the opportunity to be a part of that society, we lose all relevance.


Justin

[Shema]

I'm not even sure if the issue is if Christians are the enemy, but if Christianity is the enemy.

Any religion that claims it is the only true religion, in conjunction with a need to convert the entire world, is the enemy of freedom itself. Christianity and Islam both fall into this category.

[Meh_Gerbil]

I'm opposed to the Wiccan Faith.
I think for the good of mankind it shouldn't exist.
I'm unwilling to pass laws to ban it.

However, if I had a Wiccan as a neighbor and he was in bed with the flu I'd use my snow blower to clear his driveway after a storm. We might even have a BBQ when summer rolled around. I'd be happy to have him explain his faith to my daughters.

Are we enemies?

[Cu Mhorrigan]

In the loosest definition of the word: an enemy is a person who seeks our harm, our subjugation or our death, That is the basic definition of an enemy. Madgerbil may well blow out my drive way when I have the flu but it is not so much to be helpful but for me to Owe him something.
Richbee may decide to pray for me but it is not becaue he cares for my sould but because he hates what I belive and He will use His prayers to work magic against me.
What alot of people fail to understand is that fanatical/fundementalist christians do not care about One another, what makes you think they will care about us outside their faith. they dont want understanding they want our wills and souls under the control of their church.
As a Survvor of spiritual abuse I can tell you this much the addage of teh christian army shooting it's own wounded is so far beyond true, it's scary.
They (Fundementalists) make it abundantly clear that if we are not the kind of christians they are, then we are the enemy of their god, and even though they may like us, we are their enemy and should be treated accordingly.
Hence they make it abundantly clear (At least in My mind) We should not trust them father than we can throw them.

[Richbee]

Richbee may decide to pray for me but it is not becaue he cares for my sould soul but because he hates what I belive and He will use His prayers to work magic against me.

Actually, I don't know you and I haven't prayed for you.

I don't pray for nameless monikers on the internet.

I am here to discuss ideas, and all Christians are encouraged to Love our enemies, and even digital representations of real people. :hehe:

Now, in my view, any and all pretensions in opposition of God, can be, and will be demolished. (See 2 Cor. 10)

All Christians do stand united against spirual darkess, and the occult. There is no doubt now, in my mind, after extenside research that Wicca, or Wiccans are following teachings originating in Occultic traditions.

Hate is a powerful word, and hating anyone takes a lot of time and energy and back fires on the person who hates.

Love is liberating!

"Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness...."

We should all celebrate the Freedom(s) we have in America, and that includes my celebrating your Freedom of belief, and because I know the foundation of our Country and the creeds exposed in our DoI and US C'.

[Richbee]

I'm opposed to the Wiccan Faith.
I think for the good of mankind it shouldn't exist.
I'm unwilling to pass laws to ban it.

However, if I had a Wiccan as a neighbor and he was in bed with the flu I'd use my snow blower to clear his driveway after a storm. We might even have a BBQ when summer rolled around. I'd be happy to have him explain his faith to my daughters.

Are we enemies?


Once upon a time, I dated a Witch or Neo-pagan of sorts.

She said I was very loving, but she had big problems with both her Fathers Judaism and Christianity.

She never actually told me what she believed, originally I was wrong and I thot' perhaps a New Ager. It took me a some time, and only after researching and encountering folks like Dur did I catch up with the truth.

IMO, Wiccan, and most our solo believers, like the freedom and the latitude, because there is no objective truth or objective truth is denied, you acn believe just about anything.

This of course leaves the door wide open for the Occult, but then, no surprise, if you research the origin, and the Men who started these ideas. Although picked up and shaped by some free spirit Feminists in the 60's.

[Cu Mhorrigan]

Actually, I don't know you and I haven't prayed for you.

I don't pray for nameless monikers on the internet.

I am here to discuss ideas, and all Christians are encouraged to Love our enemies, and even digital representations of real people. :hehe:

Now, in my view, any and all pretensions in opposition of God, can be, and will be demolished. (See 2 Cor. 10)

All Christians do stand united against spirual darkess, and the occult. There is no doubt now, in my mind, after extenside research that Wicca, or Wiccans are following teachings originating in Occultic traditions.

Hate is a powerful word, and hating anyone takes a lot of time and energy and back fires on the person who hates.

Love is liberating!

"Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness...."

We should all celebrate the Freedom(s) we have in America, and that includes my celebrating your Freedom of belief, and because I know the foundation of our Country and the creeds exposed in our DoI and US C'.
I was using you as a fictitious example Richbee.
And essentially everything that Doesnt make us grovel at the Feet of YHWH is against the bible. Heck you're not even supposed to eat Shellfish or pork.
That being said, Fundementalist say they "Love their neighbor" but I have experienced the opposite and it is my experience in the christian church that I am talking about.
Ive seen the altar calls where people wept and cried and wailed and Moaned, then five minutes later they turn around and start gossiping and manipulating and posturing as to who is the most spiritual in the group, I have seen pastors misuse their authority to silence people who simply had a difference of opinion. I have seen pastors spend their congregation into bankrupcy. My experience has shown me that christian love is fickle at best, and an out right Lie at worst. Unfortunately it is not enough that they try to do that to themselves, but then they turn around and do it to us.
Like the case of a wiccan family who had their children taken from them because a christian believed that the woman had sacrificed her youngest child to satan.

[Shema]

All Christians do stand united against spirual darkess, and the occult. There is no doubt now, in my mind, after extenside research that Wicca, or Wiccans are following teachings originating in Occultic traditions.

Alright, lets look at this...

1. Christians consider wicca and all forms of witchcraft to be spiritual darkness, and the occult.
2. Christians are against what they perceive to be spiritual darkness and the occult.
3. Thus, Christians are against wicca, etc.

I don't see how much more clear it can be that christians are indeed the enemies of wiccans or any other group related to the occult, witchcraft, etc.

[technomage]

Shalom, Shema,


I'm not even sure if the issue is if Christians are the enemy, but if Christianity is the enemy.

Any religion that claims it is the only true religion, in conjunction with a need to convert the entire world, is the enemy of freedom itself. Christianity and Islam both fall into this category.

You of course are aware that Judaism is "against" any other religion, in that they see all other Gods as false Gods. And you are of course aware that some of the Prophets speak of a time when all the world will worship G-D, and will center their worship in Jerusalem. I humbly submit to you that, in light of those claims, the distinction you make between Judaism on the one hand, and Christianity and Islam on the other, becomes ... more than a bit questionable.

Justin

[technomage]

Eek! It's a Gerbil! Run!

Seriously, hi, MG .. haven't seen you in a while. :hug:


I'm opposed to the Wiccan Faith.
I think for the good of mankind it shouldn't exist.
I'm unwilling to pass laws to ban it.

However, if I had a Wiccan as a neighbor and he was in bed with the flu I'd use my snow blower to clear his driveway after a storm. We might even have a BBQ when summer rolled around. I'd be happy to have him explain his faith to my daughters.

Are we enemies?

I would say no. However, this thread was primarily directed towards Neo-Pagans and Wiccans who believe that we are enemies. That doesn't mean I don't appreciate the input--I do, and I welcome further input if you're so inclined--only that the article may not apply to you as much.

And the next time it snows, I'll be sure to throw a snowball in your general direction. :wink:

Justin

[technomage]

FALSE!

That is your opinion.

This thread is for the purpose of discussing whether or not Christians are the enemies of Wiccans and Neo-Pagans, and is intended primarily for a Wiccan and Neo-Pagan audience. If you continue to interject material that is not relevant to the discussion at hand, I will ask the moderators to intervene, and to split your posts off to a different thread.

Justin

[Shema]

Shalom, Shema,



You of course are aware that Judaism is "against" any other religion, in that they see all other Gods as false Gods. And you are of course aware that some of the Prophets speak of a time when all the world will worship G-D, and will center their worship in Jerusalem. I humbly submit to you that, in light of those claims, the distinction you make between Judaism on the one hand, and Christianity and Islam on the other, becomes ... more than a bit questionable.

Justin

The big distinction is that Christianity and Islam both actively attempt to convert others, while Judaism does not.

[Shema]

[QUOTE]
Any rational, "free thinker" knows of the Occultic and Theosophistic origins of this "path".

It sounds to me like you're just throwing around the word 'occult' now, Rich. It simply means 'hidden' - and there are hidden doctrines in every religion.

Now, any "free thinker" knows of the occultic and theosophic origins of Christianity. Your entire religion is based on mysticism and magic from an influx of mystery religions in the area of the galillee - bacchus, mithra, osiris, elusenian, etc.


You do understand and appreciate the origins and the founders of Theosophy? Heaven's Gate anyone?

Theosophy predates Heaven's Gate by thousands of years. It sounds to me like you've thrown around a couple of words without knowing their meaning - occult and theosophy.

[Richbee]

It sounds to me like you're just throwing around the word 'occult' now, Rich. It simply means 'hidden' - and there are hidden doctrines in every religion.

Oh, a Literalist huh?

:huh:

:nsm:


Now, any "free thinker" knows of the occultic and theosophic origins of Christianity. Your entire religion is based on mysticism and magic from an influx of mystery religions in the area of the galillee - bacchus, mithra, osiris, elusenian, etc.

False, and I would be happy to refute your false claims point-by-point and cite Professor Nash, and authority of the ever changing "Mystery Cults".

And, BTW, Gnosticism predates Christianity.

Heretics or heresies, rejected by the Orthodox Christian faith prove the reality of the Exclusivinistic nature of the faith.

You can'y have it both ways.

Truth is after all exclusive in nature. (Not subjective or relativinistic)


Theosophy predates Heaven's Gate by thousands of years. It sounds to me like you've thrown around a couple of words without knowing their meaning - occult and theosophy.

No, not really.

The rise or the peak of Theosophy dates to a time period just before Crowley, Yeats and Gardner.

Google, the: "Golden Dawn" of W.B. Yeats and his wife, and look into it's own rrots in Freemasonary and the Cabbla or Kabbla.

Not to mention the Eastern Religious input, from Buddhaim and Hinduism.

Sound familar?

That is correct, this is the foundation of the Wiccan "path". Not really based on old paganism, old "stories" or old wisdom.

All based on deception and lies! When your so deep in the pit of darkness, what can you actually discern, objectively?

Deny the truth, and believe the lies???

By-the-way (BTW), what is truth?

[technomage]

The big distinction is that Christianity and Islam both actively attempt to convert others, while Judaism does not.

Absolutely. However ... if the Prophets predict that there will be a time when all the world will worship HaShem (Zech 14), is there a difference whether this is by human agency or by (putatively) divine agency?

Nevertheless, I quite agree that there is a distinction. Let me, however, ask you this: I do not know what "branch" of Judaism you adhere to (though I assume you're not Karaite, as you refer to the Midrashim authoritatively). I am a Wiccan: in Hebrew, haKasheph (I hope that's the masculine form :wink:).

Would you, as a person who follows Judaism, have me killed?

Justin

[Shema]

False, and I would be happy to refute your false claims point-by-point and cite Professor Nash, and authority of the ever changing "Mystery Cults".

You can cite all of the apologists that you want. Pagan influence in Christianity isn't debated by secular modern scholarship today. Now, you can find all of the christian 'scholars' that you want to find excuses for why there are no pagan influences in the gospels. Apologists simply hold no weight in unbiased scholarship today. This is why pagan influences in the gospels is confirmed in any basic level humanities course on mythology, in almost any public university nationwide.


The rise or the peak of Theosophy dates to a time period just before Crowley, Yeats and Gardner.

Google, the: "Golden Dawn" of W.B. Yeats and his wife, and look into it's own rrots in Freemasonary and the Cabbla or Kabbla.

Not to mention the Eastern Religious input, from Buddhaim and Hinduism.

The GD predates Heaven's gate too. Freemasony predates the GD. Kabbalah predates both. Eastern Religions predate them all. It seems like you are just going back further and further. Theosophy is defined as "teaching about God and the world based on mystical insight"

This is much, much older than heaven's gate. In fact, its much older than Jesus. To attempt to link its rise to heaven's gate, then to crowley and the GD is pretty inaccurate.

[Richbee]

You can cite all of the apologists that you want. Pagan influence in Christianity isn't debated by secular modern scholarship today.

:haha:

You go boy!


Now, you can find all of the christian 'scholars' that you want to find excuses for why there are no pagan influences in the gospels.

None, zero! The New testment is decidely Anti-Plato! Anti-pagan, as is the OT, and Judasim!

Jesus can save your from the prison of your own ignorance!

Joseph Klausner
Historian and Professor,
Hebrew University
1874-1958


Jesus of Nazareth...was a product of Palestine alone, a product of Judaism unaffected by any foreign admixture. There were many Gentiles in Galilee, but Jesus was in no way influenced by them. In his days Galilee was the stronghold of the most enthusiastic Jewish patriotism...In all this Jesus is the most Jewish of Jews...more Jewish even than Hillel. [The Greatest Jewish Rabbi]

Jesus of Nazareth (New York: Macmillan, 1925), pp. 363, 374.


Apologists simply hold no weight in unbiased scholarship today.

And, Historians?

Theologians?


This is why pagan influences in the gospels is confirmed in any basic level humanities course on mythology, in almost any public university nationwide.

False! Go and learn!


The GD predates Heaven's gate too.

GD?

What does this mean?

[Shema]

Joseph Klausner
Historian and Professor,
Hebrew University
1874-1958


Jesus of Nazareth...was a product of Palestine alone, a product of Judaism unaffected by any foreign admixture. There were many Gentiles in Galilee, but Jesus was in no way influenced by them. In his days Galilee was the stronghold of the most enthusiastic Jewish patriotism...In all this Jesus is the most Jewish of Jews...more Jewish even than Hillel. [The Greatest Jewish Rabbi]

Jesus of Nazareth (New York: Macmillan, 1925), pp. 363, 374.

I wonder how much you actually know about Klausner, so I'll give you the rundown...

Klausner was an avid zionist. Klausner was fighting hard to give credit to Judaism above Christianity for all of the advances in western society. His work
Jesus of Nazareth ammounted to little more than zionist propaganda. It isn't that it wasn't good work, it was simply that he wanted to give credit to Judaism for things like Christianity for purposes such as promoting the jewish state, promoting jewish identity, promoting western support of jews, etc. The truth of the matter is that the source was so biased, and had such a strong agenda, that it is unable to provide us with a real picture of the pagan influences in the gospels. The extreme bias renders all credibility of your source null and void.


And, Historians?

Theologians?

Historians and theologians are a dime a dozen. You can find the concensus of the unbiased, majority view, or you can find one or two apologists out of the group to support whatever wild and unhistorical claims you want to make about the purity of your religion.


False! Go and learn!
Actually, pagan influences in Christianity are taught in humanities classes on mythology nation wide, in addition to a variety of history and religions classes. Here is a link to the syllabus of one such public university as an example.

http://clt3378-01.sp05.fsu.edu/syllabus.html




GD? What does this mean?
That is the Golden Dawn, the group you just got done mentioning. If you were truly familiar with the group, and not just parroting stuff you heard on apologist websites, then you would know that.

[Undomiel]

Justin,

I'd like to discuss how you view the themes that Acharya S brings up, such as none of the old myths were real events with real people and all were just based on the passage of the sun, moon, planets and stars through the sky. Do you agree with this? And do you think this is why the divide in understanding between pagans and christians is so vast atm?

[Durthorin]

Christianity is opposed to Paganism. I use the wider word Paganism because I feel that to Christian doctrine and theology it is irrelivant if you are talking about a Cherokee Shaman, Helene Reconstructionist, Reclaiming Witch or a Traditional Wiccan. All of the above while internally vastly different are in essence a way of not following the "One True Path" of salvation. Does that mean that Christians are the enemies of Pagans? Yes & no. 90% of Christians accept to some greater or lessor degree that belief in an exclusive lock on truth. A minority are violently opposed to the existence of other faiths. While at the other end you have those that believe that God is vaster than their understanding and believe that no good people will be condemned to Hell if they have led a good life. In between are most Christians and an honest truth is that they just don't care about what we believe. They judge us on our actions and they would if they could change us but they do not feel a need to force us to change. So for the most part while Christianity is the Foe of Paganism, individual Christians are not your enemy unless they choose that role and as for my thoughts about how we should react to that:

Three things without which the protection of the Mighty Ones cannot be: forgiving an enemy and a wrong done, wisdom in judgment and act; and cleaving to what is just, come what may.

Three instructions not wise to believe: what a person imparts in support of what is for their own profit and success; what one imparts with hatred to another; and what a person wise in their own eyes imparts.

As Justin pointed out, what we do.. how we react to opposition must be based on what is honorable within our community. If someone chooses to see you as an enemy, make him walk the full distance.. don't meet his hatered half way.

Brighid Bless, Dur

[Shema]

Absolutely. However ... if the Prophets predict that there will be a time when all the world will worship HaShem (Zech 14), is there a difference whether this is by human agency or by (putatively) divine agency?

I'm not sure how it will turn about. Looking at the past, I doubt that it would be the result of a forcefull conversion. I think it would probably go more along the lines of... the messiah comes, we have world peace, everybody wants to glorify the God of Abraham as a result.

That may be oversimplyfing it a bit, but that is just a guess off of the top of my head.


Would you, as a person who follows Judaism, have me killed?

No, and I don't believe that Judaism calls for a crusade to go killing off others who practice witchcraft or whatever. The laws against this apply to Jews in particular, and those living amongst Jews. This doesn't mean that this is permissable for non-jews, however, Judaism simply doesn't take it upon itself to go on crusades.

In addition, Jews have rarely applied the death penalty for such things except in very ancient times. When the Torah states that a man should be put to death for this or that, it simply means that they should be put to death. It doesn't mean that they must. For example, the Sanhedren only executed one man in its entire history. The Talmud records this as being a brutal Sanhedren for doing such a thing. Technically, it could have executed many more than that. But it pretty much gave other offenders lesser punishments and let them off the hook.

[Richbee]

Christianity is opposed to Paganism.

Yes, as was Judaism.

But, we Christians are to love even our enemies, let alone our Neopagan or wiccan citizens.


I use the wider word Paganism because I feel that to Christian doctrine and theology it is irrelivant if you are talking about a Cherokee Shaman, Helene Reconstructionist, Reclaiming Witch or a Traditional Wiccan. All of the above while internally vastly different are in essence a way of not following the "One True Path" of salvation.

Really doesn't matter if you had included the "Motley Crew" or "Church of Satan". We Christians, like it or not, are exorted to love one and all.

But, that in no means, that all ideas are equal, or protected.


Does that mean that Christians are the enemies of Pagans? Yes & no. 90% of Christians accept to some greater or lessor degree that belief in an exclusive lock on truth.

Actually truth is exclusive. Any and all assertions that truth is all inclusive is in and of itself, an exclusive truth claim excluding all defintions outside of your narrow defintion.

Thanks, and Blessed be to God in Heaven above for the gifts of Liberty and the exortation to be loving and tolerant of people, but realistically not all ideas are equal or truthful.

Christians are to love ALL peope, but any and all ideas are fair game to be tested in light of the God's eternal truth, and objective and absolute unchanging TRUTH, that will never be refuted or explained away as subjective or cultural.

[Cu Mhorrigan]

Logically speaking, "wiccans" cut their own throats.

Any rational, "free thinker" knows of the Occultic and Theosophistic origins of this "path".

:lolo:

Good luck Pal!

You do understand and appreciate the origins and the founders of Theosophy?

Heaven's Gate anyone?
Justin I think Richbee's post pretty much prove my point. Notice that He starts with saying "America is a Christian Nation" essentially meaning that we pagans are here as His church's permission. He then starts with acting like He knows more about our religion than we do.
Im suprise he hasnt done the hell threat.
Do you still think these people see us as anything but their enemies?
Their words say one thing, but their actions say somethig else.
Notice the attitude he took when you told him to stay on topic.

[Cu Mhorrigan]

But, we Christians are to love even our enemies, let alone our Neopagan or wiccan citizens.

Really doesn't matter if you had included the "Motley Crew" or "Church of Satan". We Christians, like it or not, are exorted to love one and all.

But, that in no means, that all ideas are equal, or protected.

Actually truth is exclusive. Any and all assertions that truth is all inclusive is in and of itself, an exclusive truth claim excluding all defintions outside of your narrow defintion.

Thanks, and Blessed be to God in Heaven above for the gifts of Liberty and the exortation to be loving and tolerant of people, but realistically not all ideas are equal or truthful.

Christians are to love ALL peope, but any and all ideas are fair game to be tested in light of the God's eternal truth, and objective and absolute unchanging TRUTH, that will never be refuted or explained away as subjective or cultural.
Christians may be called to Love all people rich but their actions are soemthing completely different. Historty has shown that fanatical, fundementalist chrsitianity can do nothing but try to convert subjugate and destroy that which is not exclusively christian. you folks dont even get along with one another, so you expect us outside your religion to believe you care about us? please dont insult my intelligence.

[Undomiel]

Christians may be called to Love all people rich but their actions are soemthing completely different. Historty has shown that fanatical, fundementalist chrsitianity can do nothing but try to convert subjugate and destroy that which is not exclusively christian. you folks dont even get along with one another, so you expect us outside your religion to believe you care about us? please dont insult my intelligence.

Cu, we aren't born genetically christian, nor are we born predisposed to be christian fundamentalists. We are individuals and come from various backgrounds. Do you suppose you are the only person to have ever been ridiculed or harrassed by religion(s)? It happens frequently, in religion and outside of it, the common denominator being our shared "humanity" and not our religious beliefs. The only time you need worry is when the person speaking is over the line and pulls out the rubber stamp.

I don't want to hear anymore about how you were singled out for harrassment by the people in the christian community, until you address all the other obvious harrassments a person in your position might and ofttimes does, have to endure, such as:

1. Harrassment for being poor.
(or the alternative, Harrassment because you have too much money)
2. Harrassment by women who don't like men.
3. Harrassment by men who don't like men.
4. Harrassment by black people who don't like white people.
5. Harrassment by white people who don't like black people.

Harrassment for the size of your teeth, the size of your manhood, the size of your car, the size of your rear end, the size of your house, your religion or the alternative your lack of religion, your education or the alternative your lack of education, how well you spell, the proficiency of your grammar usage, your language, the type of fuel you use, do you recycle?, the type of food you eat, do you eat meat?, are you actively involved in saving the environment?, the type of books you read, where you live, where you went to school, how you make love, how many times you've done so, how many fatherless and aborted children have you sired, do you donate to charities and the equally classic do you donate to a charity the person critiquing you feels is a worthy cause, and on and on.

You are not unique. We all experience prejudice and harrassment at some level, by people of all walks of life, at some points in our lives.

[Darth Executor]

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahahahahahaha. There are still people who think Christianity has pagan origins. Not only that, but somebody actually mentioned Acharya S! Anything to make yourself feel better, eh?

[Cu Mhorrigan]

Undomiel,
I am not saying that I am the only one singled out for torment, I am talking about the fact that fundementalists dont even get along with one another hence they are not going to accept us no matter how much "Education" and "Information" we give them.
My own experiences had shown Me that the Fundementalists are not interested in anything other than control and Subjugation. Take a look at the christians posting on this thread. Notice the Horse manuer they use to pacify us. "OH we hate Wicca but Love Wiccans" "I dont hate pagans, I would help them if need be. but they are deluded and need Jesus"
These are not the words of a person trying to be our friend, these are the words of the person who is "Tolerating us" for as long as they have to.
The fact also remains that when I was a fundie I said and used the exact same rhetoric hence I pretty much know what it means. "You hate us but cant say you hate us so you say something Not nearly as bad."

[technomage]

Justin I think Richbee's post pretty much prove my point.

Well, again I have to disagree with you ... but once you read the reason, I think you may agree with me.

Based on comparing his actions with the text he purports to follow, Rich is not a Christian. By my best understanding, he is an anti-Christian troll who is trying to turn people away from Christianity. That's the only way I can understand his actions when compared to the Biblical standards of behavior.

Justin

[Undomiel]

Undomiel,
I am not saying that I am the only one singled out for torment, I am talking about the fact that fundementalists dont even get along with one another hence they are not going to accept us no matter how much "Education" and "Information" we give them.
My own experiences had shown Me that the Fundementalists are not interested in anything other than control and Subjugation. Take a look at the christians posting on this thread. Notice the Horse manuer they use to pacify us. "OH we hate Wicca but Love Wiccans" "I dont hate pagans, I would help them if need be. but they are deluded and need Jesus"
These are not the words of a person trying to be our friend, these are the words of the person who is "Tolerating us" for as long as they have to.
The fact also remains that when I was a fundie I said and used the exact same rhetoric hence I pretty much know what it means. "You hate us but cant say you hate us so you say something Not nearly as bad."

I dunno. I don't hate you. I'm not sure why you insist that I do.

[technomage]

Hi, Undomiel,


I'd like to discuss how you view the themes that Acharya S brings up, such as none of the old myths were real events with real people and all were just based on the passage of the sun, moon, planets and stars through the sky. Do you agree with this?

Well ... to be perfectly blunt, no. From everything Acharya S has written that I've read, Acharya has completely lost touch with reality. I'll be more than glad to discuss her works, but just so you know I think they're better served when used as compost.


And do you think this is why the divide in understanding between pagans and christians is so vast atm?

Here at TWeb, specifically, because a lot of people do not want to "understand," but to win arguments. In general ... well, it's much the same. Many of the Christians who interact with Pagans have little or no interest in their actual beliefs--they only want to argue that those beliefs are wrong, whatever they are. Same with many of the Pagans ... they only want to see Christianity as "the Enemy," and have no interest in understanding.

Few Neo-Pagans (or Christians, for that matter) realize just how much Christianity has influenced the various Neo-Pagan paths ... or care to consider that since Neo-Paganism came out of a Christian culture, the acorn did not fall far from the oak.

Justin

[technomage]

No, and I don't believe that Judaism calls for a crusade to go killing off others who practice witchcraft or whatever. The laws against this apply to Jews in particular, and those living amongst Jews. This doesn't mean that this is permissable for non-jews, however, Judaism simply doesn't take it upon itself to go on crusades.

Thank you. In that case, I can also say that followers of Judaism are not my enemies.


For example, the Sanhedren only executed one man in its entire history. The Talmud records this as being a brutal Sanhedren for doing such a thing.

Now, this I'd never heard before, and it sounds neat! Do you have a referrence for the passage in the Talmud? (I just hope it's the Babylonian Talmud: I have some of the BabTalmud in English, but I don't have any of the JerTalmud.)

Justin

[Durthorin]

Well, again I have to disagree with you ... but once you read the reason, I think you may agree with me.

Based on comparing his actions with the text he purports to follow, Rich is not a Christian. By my best understanding, he is an anti-Christian troll who is trying to turn people away from Christianity. That's the only way I can understand his actions when compared to the Biblical standards of behavior.

Justin

Justin, I hate to disagree but I have known Rich for years on these boards. He's not a troll, he believes exactly as he says and considers his views properly Christian. If anything he has "tempered" his attacks on non-Christian faiths since we first met.

Cu,
May I make an observation as 1. an Ex-fundimentalist Christian and 2. As a Pagan teacher and Priest. Many Pagan's come to our faith after leaving Christianity, often that departure is spirtual and emotionally painful caused by the members of a church or its leadership. Like anyone in pain we tend to lash out to see in that faith that we departed all the things we left a particular Church or Chirstian Fellowship for. Being at peace with being a Pagan is often a journey for those people to learn to be a peace with not being a Christian. Individuals within Christianity did you harm, that does not mean all people within that faith will or want to. I do not espouse seeing everyone with sunshine and white light. Yes.. *some* Christians will be your enemies but then again some Pagans will as well.

These are the Virtues of the Celtic people. Other lists exist but I find this one was helpful to me.. Your enemies are those that do not keep such virtues. No matter what faith they follow.

0. HONOR- (oaths, duty)
1. LOYALTY
2. HOSPITALITY - (generosity, care for dependents and followers)
3. TRUSTWORTHINESS - (truthfulness, honesty)
4. JUSTICE - (fairness, balance, respect for others)
5. COURAGE
6. INDEPENDENCE - (liberty, responsibility for choices, resistance to compulsion)
7. SELF RULE - (individuality, self-reliance, self-restraint)
8. INDUSTRIOUSNESS - (perseverance, persistence)
9. RESOLVE - (determination, setting a goal, taking a stand, steadfast)
A. INITIATIVE - (vigor, energetic, active)
B. CLEVERNESS - (wit, ingenuity)
C. WISDOM - (knowledge, discernment, judgment)
D. CREATIVITY - (playfulness, delight, puzzles, games, mischief)
E. EXCELLENCE - (achievement, success, skill)

May the Gods be with you and guide you so that you are a credit to them and your Ancestors.

Dur

[Darth Executor]

I don't hate Wiccans and really don't care who they worship as long as it isn't a symbol of evil(any evil God, Satan or otherwise is included here). Any cult that associates itself with evil knowingly is worthy of my contempt.

I have a question for all of you though: Do you think the animosity between Christianity and Wicca could have started when the pagans didn't seem to have much of a problem with feeding Christians to the lions?

[Durthorin]

I have a question for all of you though: Do you think the animosity between Christianity and Wicca could have started when the pagans didn't seem to have much of a problem with feeding Christians to the lions?

Its a bit more complicated than that. Pagan Rome fed those to the lions that did not support the Roman state. As it was they gave Christians a number of ways to support the state without running afoul of the law. Ie it was considered a Civic Duty to sacrefice at the temple, knowing that Jews could not do this.. Roman law allowed them to send a slave in their stead. Note The Romans at one point in time considered Christianity nothing more than an odd antisocial and atheist sect of Judism. Also if one looks at current historical scholarship they Pagan persecution of Christians was never that sustained or orginized but erratic and sporadic based on the current Emperor and regional leaders views and/or resources. When Chrstianity gained political and military power one thing it proved was it was a lot better orginized and efficient in its own persecutions.

But here is a admission on its simplest level, My spirtual ancestors killed yours, your spirtual ancestors killed mine. Lets move on. I have ancestors that killed Brits and I have no animostity towards England, I have ancestors that killed Yankees.. and I have no animosity towards anyone born North of the Mason-Dixon.

[NeilUnreal]

But here is a admission on its simplest level, My spirtual ancestors killed yours, your spirtual ancestors killed mine. Lets move on.

Well said. 5 Pearls.

-Neil

[Undomiel]

Hi, Undomiel,



Well ... to be perfectly blunt, no. From everything Acharya S has written that I've read, Acharya has completely lost touch with reality. I'll be more than glad to discuss her works, but just so you know I think they're better served when used as compost.



Here at TWeb, specifically, because a lot of people do not want to "understand," but to win arguments. In general ... well, it's much the same. Many of the Christians who interact with Pagans have little or no interest in their actual beliefs--they only want to argue that those beliefs are wrong, whatever they are. Same with many of the Pagans ... they only want to see Christianity as "the Enemy," and have no interest in understanding.

Few Neo-Pagans (or Christians, for that matter) realize just how much Christianity has influenced the various Neo-Pagan paths ... or care to consider that since Neo-Paganism came out of a Christian culture, the acorn did not fall far from the oak.

Justin


Care to explain what your beliefs are then? Compare and contrast with christianity?