Will the Antichrist be from the tribe of Dan?

[furay]

I don't usually read about Eschatological subjects (I've had more than my fair share of opposing viewpoints crammed down my throat before I discovered Orthodoxy) however this page (http://www.serfes.org/orthodox/theantichrist.htm) was linked in a post I read on another board. According to the short article about half way down; the Antichrist will be of Jewish ancestry and from the tribe of Dan. Here is a snippit:


The Holy Fathers Iriney ("Against Heresy", Book V, chapter 30), Ippolit (Legends about Christ and the Antichrist), and also Ilariy, Ambrose, Ieronim and Augustus, remark that the Antichrist will be of Jewish ancestry, from the tribe of Dan. In the Synaksare, stated in the Week of Lent without meat, we read that, "The Antichrist will come and be born, as St. Ippolit of Rome declares, from a depraved wife and self-styled virgin, which is from the Jews, from the tribe of Dan." (Lenten Triod) Such indications in God's Word have several foundations:





In the prophecies of Patriarch Jacob about each of his sons becoming the progenitors of the tribes of Israel, the fate of Dan's ancestors is depicted in such a way that can only be ascribed to the Antichrist. "Dan shall be a serpent on the way, an adder in the path..." (Genesis 49, 17)
In the prophecies of Ierenim: "From Dan himself...(Ierenim VIII,16)
In the prophecies of the Apocalypse, enumerating the remainder of all the tribes of Israel, marked by the Angel for salvation, the tribe of Dan is absolutely excluded. (Revelations VII, 4-8).



What do you all make of this? Please no heretical full-preterist or other cheeky-monkey responses. I'm especially interested in Orthodox and even Roman Catholic views, but anyone with something insightful to add may do so. Thank you and be well.

[GhostontheNet]

In the prophecies of Patriarch Jacob about each of his sons becoming the progenitors of the tribes of Israel, the fate of Dan's ancestors is depicted in such a way that can only be ascribed to the Antichrist. "Dan shall be a serpent on the way, an adder in the path..." (Genesis 49, 17) This strikes me as the exegetical equivalent of leaping tall buildings in a single bound - when we say someone is a snake in the grass, it doesn't mean they are the antichrist or the satan. Though of course I am biased towards enabling the antichrist being a Gentile as I hold from my orthodox preterist view.

[Hitch]

I dont know of any NT passages defining antichrist as a paeticular individual.

[GhostontheNet]

I dont know of any NT passages defining antichrist as a paeticular individual. Well, technically the term of the antichrist, used in the way it is often today, was a later term not used in that way in the New Testament, it nevertheless is in my opinion a useful one. Much like although the New Testament never says the term "Trinity", it communicates it anyway.

[ross3421]

I don't usually read about Eschatological subjects (I've had more than my fair share of opposing viewpoints crammed down my throat before I discovered Orthodoxy) however this page (http://www.serfes.org/orthodox/theantichrist.htm) was linked in a post I read on another board. According to the short article about half way down; the Antichrist will be of Jewish ancestry and from the tribe of Dan. Here is a snippit:


The Holy Fathers Iriney ("Against Heresy", Book V, chapter 30), Ippolit (Legends about Christ and the Antichrist), and also Ilariy, Ambrose, Ieronim and Augustus, remark that the Antichrist will be of Jewish ancestry, from the tribe of Dan. In the Synaksare, stated in the Week of Lent without meat, we read that, "The Antichrist will come and be born, as St. Ippolit of Rome declares, from a depraved wife and self-styled virgin, which is from the Jews, from the tribe of Dan." (Lenten Triod) Such indications in God's Word have several foundations:





In the prophecies of Patriarch Jacob about each of his sons becoming the progenitors of the tribes of Israel, the fate of Dan's ancestors is depicted in such a way that can only be ascribed to the Antichrist. "Dan shall be a serpent on the way, an adder in the path..." (Genesis 49, 17)
In the prophecies of Ierenim: "From Dan himself...(Ierenim VIII,16)
In the prophecies of the Apocalypse, enumerating the remainder of all the tribes of Israel, marked by the Angel for salvation, the tribe of Dan is absolutely excluded. (Revelations VII, 4-8).



What do you all make of this? Please no heretical full-preterist or other cheeky-monkey responses. I'm especially interested in Orthodox and even Roman Catholic views, but anyone with something insightful to add may do so. Thank you and be well.

Hi,

I have seen you have not received much information to your question, let me see if I can shed some light.

First, we need to understand who the Antichrist is to be like.....

Is 14:12-17 “How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cast down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!. For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most high.

He will be like Christ, thus he should have the same chacteristics.

Above we see that he will "sit in the mount of the congregation". As Christ will also sit among his congregation so will Satan. Christ's congregation encompasses Gentiles which are seen inside the Kingdom walls while however there are also 12 tribes which will reside outside and around the Kingdom.

Not only will he sit among the congregation but also to the "sides of the north". Which tribes are located on the north side of the Kingdom ??

It is not Dan for Dan will reside on the east...

Eze 48:31 And the gates of the city shall be after the names of the tribes of Israel: three gates northward; one gate of Reuben, one gate of Judah, one gate of Levi.
Eze 48:32 And at the east side four thousand and five hundred: and three gates; and one gate of Joseph, one gate of Benjamin, one gate of Dan.
Eze 48:33 And at the south side four thousand and five hundred measures: and three gates; one gate of Simeon, one gate of Issachar, one gate of Zebulun.
Eze 48:34 At the west side four thousand and five hundred, with their three gates; one gate of Gad, one gate of Asher, one gate of Naphtali.

The obvious choice is the tribe of Judah !!! Make good sence due to Satan claiming to be the most high he could sit no other.

I believe this answers your question. I have attach a writing on Babylon which goes into more detail on the subject. Enjoy.

In Christ, Mark.

[The Curtmudgeon]

My personal feeling on this subject is that way too many people have decided to take the term "Anti-Christ" to mean "a mirror-image Christ", as in someone who is to try to copycat every aspect of Jesus Christ. A pseudo-virgin birth, a Jew who will try to prove he's the descendant of David, even so far as to be born in Bethlehem to usurp the Micah prophecy. I believe that this where all the "Jewish Anti-Christ" theories spring from, whether they plump for the Tribe of Dan or of Judah (or any other).

But the term really only means "One who is Against Christ", and by itself tells us nothing about the AC's background. The most clear-cut description of the AC is Daniel's describing the destruction of Jerusalem as due to "the people of the prince that shall come", and his further depiction of that prince as being the AC. Also, Daniel shows that the last of the World-Powers, at the time of the "rock cut out without hands" that represents the final and complete establishment of the Kingdom of God on Earth, is a continuation (diluted) of the Roman Empire, and the AC is definitely depicted in Revelations as being head of at least a global superpower that can force its will, for at least a time, on all the world, or perhaps even a true one-world government (I don't go quite so far as to accept a one-world government, but I agree that it's a possible interpretation of the Scriptures).

All of that convinces me that the AC will be from the Revived Roman Empire, the European Union. That, by itself, does not preclude a Jewish background for him, but I believe a European, perhaps even specifically Roman, background fits much better with the passages in Daniel. (I think Left Behind's Romanian theory is nearly as far-fetched as the Jewish theories, btw. I've got a 1906 eschatological novel in which the AC is literally the resurrected Antiochus Epiphanes, giving him a Greco-Syrian background [edited to add: the author of the book calls it "Assyrian", but that's not historically accurate]; that's at least got some typological relevance although I don't believe that Satan will be granted the power to truly raise anyone from the dead, no matter what counterfeits he might use.)

The (AC will be Roman does not mean necessarily Roman Catholic) Curtmudgeon

[ross3421]

[QUOTE=The Curtmudgeon]My personal feeling on this subject is that way too many people have decided to take the term "Anti-Christ" to mean "a mirror-image Christ", as in someone who is to try to copycat every aspect of Jesus Christ. A pseudo-virgin birth, a Jew who will try to prove he's the descendant of David, even so far as to be born in Bethlehem to usurp the Micah prophecy.

He will not need to replicate the birth only his return.......


But the term really only means "One who is Against Christ",

Cannot a person claiming to be Christ be also against Christ ?????

The most clear-cut description of the AC is Daniel's describing the destruction of Jerusalem as due to "the people of the prince that shall come", and his further depiction of that prince as being the AC.

I do not see this through your specticles. The price is to come is Christ.

The people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary

The prince described in Daniel is the one and only “prince” of peace; Jesus Christ. Daniel is consistent with the use of the term “prince” in describing our Lord Jesus;

Dan 8:11 “Yea, he (little horn) magnified himself even to the prince of the host (Jesus) and by him (little horn) the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his (little horn) sanctuary was cast down to the earth. See also

Dan 11:22 “And with the arms of a flood (Jesus’ return with his host) shall they (those who align with the little horn) be overflown from before him, and shall be broken; yea, also the prince of the covenant (alongwith the prince of the host, Jesus)”.

In addition, the “people of the prince” are not the followers of Lucifer but are Christ’s host arrayed in white, the Lord’s army, as he returns to not only to destroy the city and the sanctuary but the whole earth! This event is seen in the following scriptures; Is. chapter 29, Jer. chapters 5 & 6. Also repeated in the books of the minor prophets as well.

Also, Daniel shows that the last of the World-Powers, at the time of the "rock cut out without hands" that represents the final and complete establishment of the Kingdom of God on Earth, is a continuation (diluted) of the Roman Empire,

Any biblical proof????

and the AC is definitely depicted in Revelations as being head of at least a global superpower

"global superpower" ??? sounds like you have been listening to Jack Van Impe.....


All of that convinces me that the AC will be from the Revived Roman Empire, the European Union.

Back that thought with scripture?????

Please read my attached from the previous post and we will discuss further...

In Christ, Mark.

[James Peter]

I'm curious about how you think that the EU is the revived Roman Empire. Considering the lack of italian influence within it, the fact that Brussels is a long way from Rome etc...it just smells like US anti-european sentiment. Why not consider NATO the revived Roman Empire? It still contains Italy, it has far more influence, it is much more likely to still exist as a force on the global stage in ten years time (the EU's future is uncertain as its very unlikely the proposed constitution will be adopted). I'm not saying that NATO will be but a stronger case could probably be built for it than for the EU...

[Dcn_Athanasius]

What do you all make of this? Please no heretical full-preterist or other cheeky-monkey responses. I'm especially interested in Orthodox and even Roman Catholic views, but anyone with something insightful to add may do so. Thank you and be well.

Peace and grace dear furay.

I remember I once did a study of Revelation, at seminary and instead of placing Rome in all of the prophetic places I replaced it with Jerusalem. Amazing how applicable Jewish Jerusalem sits with many of those prophecies. Oh, and wonder of wonders, she sits on seven hills as well and is "drunk with the blood of the martyrs".

I have heard Coptic bishops preach referring to a future 'antichrist' or man of sin more correctly. I believe I am correct when I say the middle Eastern Orthodox consider Islam and her 'prophet' to be the antichrist and the false prophet, but the man of sin, maybe of Jewish ancestry yet. Of course I recognise that Nero was at the time of St John the evil and satanic ruler who was lsaughtering the saints.

Pray for me as we await the resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ.

[furay]

Thank you very much for your insights, Fr. Deacon Athanasius, they are very much appreciated. Glad to see you got back from your mission safely... great photos at the link in your signature!


Peace and grace dear furay.

I remember I once did a study of Revelation, at seminary and instead of placing Rome in all of the prophetic places I replaced it with Jerusalem. Amazing how applicable Jewish Jerusalem sits with many of those prophecies. Oh, and wonder of wonders, she sits on seven hills as well and is "drunk with the blood of the martyrs".

I have heard Coptic bishops preach referring to a future 'antichrist' or man of sin more correctly. I believe I am correct when I say the middle Eastern Orthodox consider Islam and her 'prophet' to be the antichrist and the false prophet, but the man of sin, maybe of Jewish ancestry yet. Of course I recognise that Nero was at the time of St John the evil and satanic ruler who was lsaughtering the saints.

Pray for me as we await the resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ.

[Just The Facts]

Hi

Is this the AC we are discussing

8: The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition:

[PaulT]

Dcn,

What do you think the implications would be if Revelation was written prior to 70AD. How would this date play with your insight on Jerusalem.

[Dcn_Athanasius]

Dcn,

What do you think the implications would be if Revelation was written prior to 70AD. How would this date play with your insight on Jerusalem.

Christ has Risen!

I personally favour the earlier dating of revelation to pre- 70AD but I would not loose any sleep to discover it was later. I believe that many of the recent orthodox who quote a later date do so from Protestant scholarship moreso than from their own church tradition.

I believe Jerusalem fits the bill very very well. Especially in view of recent events.

Peace and grace.

[Just The Facts]

Hi

Nero................... this man that man........this is very easy if you Trust God's word.

Is this the AC in scripture.

8: The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition:

NO MAN HAS EVERY ascended out of the pit.

The pit is open just before the first resurrection at the Fifth Trumpet.

Rv 9:1: And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit. 2: And he opened the bottomless pit;

So now we know that there is at least one being in the Pit

Rv 9:11: And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.


So since the AC /Beast is in the Pit he is either

1. The King of the pit

2. He is some no name lackey stuck in the Pit.

It is obvious he is the King of the Pit. He is the King of the fallen Angels.

So as we can plainly see the AC is not a man at all.

That is why he has the Power to do great wonders and Bring Fire from Heaven in the Site of Men.

[Dcn_Athanasius]

Christ is Risen!

Thank you very much for your insights, Fr. Deacon Athanasius, they are very much appreciated. Glad to see you got back from your mission safely... great photos at the link in your signature!

Thanks for your kind words.

Dear brother I was doing some reading tonight and guess what I came by? Why it was Hippolytus and the antichrist from the tribe of Dan reference that the Archpriest referred to that you quoted. I then checked further and found St Ireneaus also mentioned it. Here are the references and relevant statements for your information:

Hippolytus Treatise on Christ and the Antichrist. Part II, Dogmatical and Historical. Chaps. 14 & 15, p. 207, Vol. V, Ante Nicene Fathers:

14. Thus did the Scriptures preach before-time of this lion and lion's whelp. And in like manner also we find it written regarding Antichrist. For Moses speaks thus: "Dan is a lion's whelp, and he shall leap from Bashan." But that no one may err by supposing that this is said of the Saviour, let him attend carefully to the matter. "Dan," he says, "is a lion's whelp;" and in naming the tribe of Dan, he declared clearly the tribe from which Antichrist is destined to spring. For as Christ springs from the tribe of Judah, so Antichrist is to spring from the tribe of Dan. And that the case stands thus, we see also from the words of Jacob: "Let Dan be 'a serpent, lying upon the ground, biting the horse's heel." What, then, is meant by the serpent but Antichrist, that deceiver who is mentioned in Genesis, who deceived Eve and supplanted Adam (pternisas, bruised Adam's heel)? But since it is necessary to prove this assertion by sufficient testimony, we shall not shrink from the task.

15. That it is in reality out of the tribe of Dan, then, that that tyrant and king, that dread judge, that son of the devil, is destined to spring and arise, the prophet testifies when he says, "Dan shall judge his people, as (he is) also one tribe in Israel." But some one may say that this refers to Samson, who sprang from the tribe of Dan, and judged the people twenty years. Well, the prophecy had its partial fulfilment in Samson, but its complete fulfilment is reserved for Antichrist. For Jeremiah also speaks to this effect: "From Dan we are to hear the sound of the swiftness of his horses: the whole land trembled at the sound of the neighing, of the driving of his horses." And another prophet says: "He shall gather together all his strength, from the east even to the west. They whom he calls, and they whom he calls not, shall go with him. He shall make the sea white with the sails of his ships, and the plain black with the shields of his armaments. And whosoever shall oppose him in war shall fall by the sword." That these things, then, are said of no one else but that tyrant, and shameless one, and adversary of God, we shall show in what follows.

Ireneaus Against heresies. Chap. XXX, p.559, Vol. 1, Ante Nicene Fathers.:

And Jeremiah does not merely point out his sudden coming, but he even indicates the tribe from which he shall come, where he says, "We shall hear the voice of his swift horses from Dan; the whole earth shall be moved by the voice of the neighing of his galloping horses: he shall also come and devour the earth, and the fulness thereof, the city also, and they that dwell therein."256 This, too, is the reason that this tribe is not reckoned in the Apocalypse along with those which are saved.


Peace and grace.

[The Curtmudgeon]

I'm curious about how you think that the EU is the revived Roman Empire. Considering the lack of italian influence within it, the fact that Brussels is a long way from Rome etc...it just smells like US anti-european sentiment. Why not consider NATO the revived Roman Empire? It still contains Italy, it has far more influence, it is much more likely to still exist as a force on the global stage in ten years time (the EU's future is uncertain as its very unlikely the proposed constitution will be adopted). I'm not saying that NATO will be but a stronger case could probably be built for it than for the EU...

The fact that Constantine moved the capital of the Empire from Rome to Constantinople did not change the fact that it was still the Roman Empire. That the EU does not use Rome as a capital is thus immaterial.

NATO doesn't really qualify as it is merely a defense alliance, it does not govern the nations that are signatories. NATO doesn't have any real effect on the legal systems of the component nations, nor indeed on the day-to-day life of the people. If NATO were to be cancelled tomorrow, few of us outside the respective militaries would be affected (up until some outside threat appeared which would otherwise have been countered by NATO). It's simply not a government.

The EU is a government, it does control (with more or less success in specific instances) the legal systems of its component nations, and the perception that it might be weaker in some ways than other supra-national organisations at the moment is neither here nor there. It's supposed to be a fractured, not to say fractious, empire: remember the "iron mixed with clay" of Daniel's vision.

The (I'm rendering my understanding, I realise that there are other ways to interpret) Curtmudgeon

[furay]

Christ is Risen!
Truly, He is Risen!

Dear brother I was doing some reading tonight and guess what I came by? Why it was Hippolytus and the antichrist from the tribe of Dan reference that the Archpriest referred to that you quoted. I then checked further and found St Ireneaus also mentioned it. Here are the references and relevant statements for your information:

Hippolytus Treatise on Christ and the Antichrist. Part II, Dogmatical and Historical. Chaps. 14 & 15, p. 207, Vol. V, Ante Nicene Fathers:
<snip>

Ireneaus Against heresies. Chap. XXX, p.559, Vol. 1, Ante Nicene Fathers.:
<snip>

Fascinating! Thank you so much for these Patristic references. I am not at all good at looking these types of things up - I'm very blessed to have you here to do the dirty work for me. :wink: Thank you again, Fr. Deacon, take care and may the blessings of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit be with you always.

[ross3421]

For as Christ springs from the tribe of Judah, so Antichrist is to spring from the tribe of Dan.

Does this really make sense? If the AC claims to be the most high then why would he come from the tribe of Dan? The AC comes as a lion from the tribe of Judah as shown.

And in like manner also we find it written regarding Antichrist. For Moses speaks thus: "Dan is a lion's whelp, and he shall leap from Bashan." But that no one may err by supposing that this is said of the Saviour, let him attend carefully to the matter. "Dan," he says, "is a lion's whelp;" and in naming the tribe of Dan, he declared clearly the tribe from which Antichrist is destined to spring.

Who's lions are whelping in Jer. 8:16 ?? God's or Satan's ??

Jer 8:13 I will surely consume them, saith the LORD: there shall be no grapes on the vine, nor figs on the fig tree, and the leaf shall fade; and the things that I have given them shall pass away from them.

We see that it is time for God's return and judgement in which he shall devour the land and all that are in it......

Jer 8:16 The snorting of his horses was heard from Dan: the whole land trembled at the sound of the neighing of his strong ones; for they are come, and have devoured the land, and all that is in it; the city, and those that dwell therein.

"His" is a reference to God and the "strong ones" to his army. We see that the land, city, and ALL therin are devoured. The AC DOES NOT devour the city (Babylon) nor ALL the land nor ALL those that dwell, only the true Christ will accomplish this !!!. And yes, the army of God returns on horses. We hear their snorting when the earth trembles upon Christ's return.

You then need to ask yourself ...is the noise "coming from" Dan or is it that he can be "heard from" the land of Dan ???

"Let Dan be 'a serpent, lying upon the ground, biting the horse's heel." What, then, is meant by the serpent but Antichrist, that deceiver who is mentioned in Genesis, who deceived Eve and supplanted Adam (pternisas, bruised Adam's heel)? But since it is necessary to prove this assertion by sufficient testimony, we shall not shrink from the task.

Ge 49:17 Dan shall be a serpent by the way, an adder in the path, that biteth the horse heels, so that his rider shall fall backward.

Now, you have plucked out this scripture without uses the context of it's meaning. The Dan above is in relation to Jacob and not a reference to the AC. We see that Dan will be a serpent which will bite the horses of the enemy and will cause the rider to fall. If this is a reference to the AC then who is the rider which falls? Christ? NO.

Ge 49:1 And Jacob called unto his sons, and said, Gather yourselves together, that I may tell you that which shall befall you in the last days.

A reference to Jacob and sons (Dan included) and what will "befall you" in the last days. A look into what their decendents will befall.

Then Jacob explains to each son what they shall accomplish....

Ge 49:28 All these are the twelve * * tribes of Israel: and this is it that their father spake unto them, and blessed them; every one according to his blessing he blessed them.

God too will send seprents into the land..........

Jer 8:17 For, behold, I will send serpents, cockatrices, among you, which will not be charmed, and they shall bite you, saith the LORD.

Am 5:18 Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD! to what end is it for you? the day of the LORD is darkness, and not light.
Am 5:19 As if a man did flee from a lion, and a bear met him; or went into the house, and leaned his hand on the wall, and a serpent bit him.

Am 9:3 And though they hide themselves in the top of Carmel, I will search and take them out thence; and though they be hid from my sight in the bottom of the sea, thence will I command the serpent, and he shall bite them:
Am 9:4 And though they go into captivity before their enemies, thence will I command the sword, and it shall slay them: and I will set mine eyes upon them for evil, and not for good.
Am 9:5 And the Lord GOD of hosts is he that toucheth the land, and it shall melt, and all that dwell therein shall mourn: and it shall rise up wholly like a flood; and shall be drowned, as by the flood of Egypt.

Christ even says be wise as serpents......

(I will also show in a new thread that the reference to serpents's in Rev. 9:19 is of God's army).

God has serpents for his use. So to claim that because Dan is referenced as a serpent which must mean evil thus this is were the AC originates is without merit.

Finally, if Dan is like lion welp's then he is considered as the young lions and not THE lion. The AC will come as a Lion the tribe of Judah.

In Christ, Mark.

[furay]

After reading some more of the Revelation of St. John tonight I decided to do a bit more research on this subject. A google search came up with this article:
The Antichrist And The Second Advent (http://www.copticchurch.org/English_spiritual_articles/Antichrist_SecondAdvent.htm) from St. Mary & St. Antonious Coptic Orthodox Church in New York. (http://www.copticchurch.org/) Perhaps ya'll might find it interesting. :smile:

[themuzicman]

(For Jaltus' benefit:)

I thought the Anti-Christ would come from the Tribe of Bob. :lol:

Michael