The Greatest Nation in the World EVER was....

[FirstSunday33ad]

Great Britain,

spread civilization, democracy, the rule of law, order and good manners where ever they went. When the days of Empire came to a close, they closed up shop and left behind The Commonwealth - one of the planets more respectable and prestigious world bodies.

All this from a tiny island of only a few score million is an amazing accomplishment and makes Britain the world's greatest nation.

[TheOneAndOnly]

Great Britain,

spread civilization, democracy, the rule of law, order and good manners where ever they went. When the days of Empire came to a close, they closed up shop and left behind The Commonwealth - one of the planets more respectable and prestigious world bodies.

All this from a tiny island of only a few score million is an amazing accomplishment and makes Britain the world's greatest nation.

I agree whole heartedly. But then again I am English. As long as we beat the French I don't care whether we're the best ever.

[JonAdams]

Great Britain,

spread civilization, democracy, the rule of law, order and good manners where ever they went. When the days of Empire came to a close, they closed up shop and left behind The Commonwealth - one of the planets more respectable and prestigious world bodies.

All this from a tiny island of only a few score million is an amazing accomplishment and makes Britain the world's greatest nation.
:rofl:
Oh wait, are you being serious?

The actions of the Britsh Empire can be nicely summed in three easy to follow steps:
Enter country,
Strip country of all useful resources,
Leave.

But yeah, we did have the worlds largest ever Empire so :tongue:.

As long as we beat the French I don't care whether we're the best ever.
On this I am forced to concur :teeth:.

Jonathan.

[wfaber]

An old saying:

"The sun never sets on the British Empire."

That's because God couldn't trust it in the dark.

[TheOneAndOnly]

The actions of the Britsh Empire can be nicely summed in three easy to follow steps:
Enter country,
Strip country of all useful resources,
Leave.

That's really not the case. In Africa, maybe. We did plunder and abuse the indigeonous inhabitants, and we didn't really leave and stable nations behind, save for South Africa, which wasn't exactly something to be proud of. Yes, the rape of Africa wasn't exactly Britain's finest hour.
However, the Empire created long lasting, impartial legal systems with well-defined personal and property rights in the majority of the nations we left behind (including America). Iraq, for example had a perfectly sufficient legal system to put Saddam on trial after he was captured. This system was still based on the old British colonial one we left behind decades ago.
Britain created scores of successful nations: Australia, Canada, New Zealand, India, Singapore, Pakistan - sort of, Cyprus, Malta, Hong Kong -OK not strictly a nation, Ireland.
What other nation could claim this? Or to have it's indigenous language being the most widely spoken (as a second language) language in the world.
Britain created the largest empire ever (bigger than the French). In India we ended centuries of internecine rivalries and united the country. True we eventally abused it, but look at what we left - 2 successful, well 1 and a half successful countries(India and Pakistan, not to mention Sri Lanka and Bangladesh. And the less said about Burma the better.
It is amazing how little bllod was spilt in the creation of the empire. In the conquest of India, which wasn't really a conquest - it was the instatment of Imperial rule instead of the domination of the East India Company, which ruled parts of India - there were very few significant battles. Plassay is the only one that comes to mind.

[JonAdams]

That's really not the case. In Africa, maybe. We did plunder and abuse the indigeonous inhabitants, and we didn't really leave and stable nations behind, save for South Africa, which wasn't exactly something to be proud of. Yes, the rape of Africa wasn't exactly Britain's finest hour.That's one way to put it :teeth:.
Britain created scores of successful nations: Australia, Canada, New Zealand, India, Singapore, Pakistan - sort of, Cyprus, Malta, Hong Kong -OK not strictly a nation, Ireland.Ireland... :huh: wasn't that there already?
And the less said about Burma the better.Well, I think the more said about Burma the better but that's another issue entirely...
It is amazing how little bllod was spilt in the creation of the empire. In the conquest of India, which wasn't really a conquest - it was the instatment of Imperial rule instead of the domination of the East India Company, which ruled parts of India - there were very few significant battles. Plassay is the only one that comes to mind.If you insist... I will admit my knowledge of our Empire is not particularly thorough so I can't really comment on this but I very much doubt our occupation was as benign as you seem to be suggesting.

Jonathan.

[Darth Executor]

My vote goes to the roman empire, for the amazing technological and social advances of its time. Oh, and I thought the mongols had the largest empire, not britain.

[Durthorin]

Greatest nation? Hmmm, Greece. Greek thought has been the foundation of western civilization. For such a small nation it has had a lasting an permanent effect on all of western civilization.

[Arnold]

Hands down the USA is the greatest country ever. It is thanks to America that the world does not speak German and Japanese or Russian. And it is because of the US that the world will not speak Arabic in the future.

Every free country on the planet owes a debt of gratitude to the USA for either preserving their freedom or allowing their freedom to develop.

[NeilUnreal]

The Greatest Nation in the World EVER was...

The Duchy of Grand Fenwick.

-Neil

[studyhound]

Hands down the USA is the greatest country ever. It is thanks to America that the world does not speak German and Japanese or Russian. And it is because of the US that the world will not speak Arabic in the future.

Every free country on the planet owes a debt of gratitude to the USA for either preserving their freedom or allowing their freedom to develop.:ahem:

Anyway, the greatest nation ever, Greece who gave us the foundation of government, science, art, history, literature, and architecture. Followed closely by the Roman empire who preserved the Greek culture, and also the Holy Roman empire who spread the Greek/Roman culture.


:sh:

[Darth Executor]

Hands down the USA is the greatest country ever. It is thanks to America that the world does not speak German and Japanese or Russian. And it is because of the US that the world will not speak Arabic in the future.

Every free country on the planet owes a debt of gratitude to the USA for either preserving their freedom or allowing their freedom to develop.


Riiight. And the USA can thank every free country for filing its pockets after they destroyed their economies with war while the USA waited until the last minute to care.

[Arnold]

Riiight. And the USA can thank every free country for filing its pockets after they destroyed their economies with war while the USA waited until the last minute to care.

I am not sure who the "its", "they" and "their" are in your comment.

[James Peter]

I'm afraid I'm going to have to weigh in on the Greek side if we are talking about nations and including the Classical ones. The Hellenisation of the world was probably the key event in (secular) history. You could argue against it though on the basis that the British Empire effected a much largely area geographically.

As for the USA being the reason that the Allies won WW2 - no. That honour belongs to the USSR. As usual the USA waited until its own interests were directly threatened and so we should hardly be grateful for that. At least Britain and France defended Poland even though it in no way at all benefited them.

Was the USA the principal reason that we aren't speaking Russian? I'm not convinced. We (the Allies) traded the freedom of millions across Europe in return for our own peace and security. As for the future, the USA is the biggest threat to world peace rather than its strongest guardian.

[Arnold]

As for the USA being the reason that the Allies won WW2 - no. That honour belongs to the USSR. As usual the USA waited until its own interests were directly threatened and so we should hardly be grateful for that. At least Britain and France defended Poland even though it in no way at all benefited them.

Was the USA the principal reason that we aren't speaking Russian? I'm not convinced. We (the Allies) traded the freedom of millions across Europe in return for our own peace and security. As for the future, the USA is the biggest threat to world peace rather than its strongest guardian.

:ahem: to borrow an expression...

[Darth Executor]

I am not sure who the "its", "they" and "their" are in your comment.

Yea, it was a bit confusing. Here's a basic outline:

Hitler leads a pissed off Germany(we can thank France and the good old USA for it) in an attempt to take over the world. As Europe is fighting for its survival the US sits back and does nothing. When Germany becomes exhausted then the US comes in with fresh troops from a nation far away that never suffered any attacks on its cities, and uses those fresh troops to beat a worn out enemy then has the audacity to declare itself a "Hero" despite the fact that if the US wouldn't have gotten involved it wouldn't have:

A: Been able to take on a Germany that recovered from the war in Europe
B: Get rich from selling weapons and helping rebuild Europe.

Not to mention the fact that they allowed the communist dogs to take over half of Europe and start the cold war which wasn't particularly fun either. Luckily, the US seems to have gotten its act together lately (2xIraq, Yugoslavia, Afghanistan, etc...) but to go so far as to thank it for our freedom is a bit of a stretch.

[Darth Executor]

As for the USA being the reason that the Allies won WW2 - no. That honour belongs to the USSR.

No, it belongs to Russia, the US and Britain with the US being the most important. Hitler would have wiped russia out if the US hadn't provided them with equipment.

[Arnold]

Yea, it was a bit confusing. Here's a basic outline:

Hitler leads a pissed off Germany(we can thank France and the good old USA for it) in an attempt to take over the world. As Europe is fighting for its survival the US sits back and does nothing. When Germany becomes exhausted then the US comes in with fresh troops from a nation far away that never suffered any attacks on its cities, and uses those fresh troops to beat a worn out enemy then has the audacity to declare itself a "Hero" despite the fact that if the US wouldn't have gotten involved it wouldn't have:

A: Been able to take on a Germany that recovered from the war in Europe
B: Get rich from selling weapons and helping rebuild Europe.

Not to mention the fact that they allowed the communist dogs to take over half of Europe and start the cold war which wasn't particularly fun either. Luckily, the US seems to have gotten its act together lately (2xIraq, Yugoslavia, Afghanistan, etc...) but to go so far as to thank it for our freedom is a bit of a stretch.

So WW2 is America's fault?

And they deserve only derision for getting "rich from selling weapons and helping rebuild Europe"?

:ahem: This smilie is getting a workout.

[Darth Executor]

So WW2 is America's fault?


A bit of America's fault. And mostly France's.

And they deserve only derision for getting "rich from selling weapons and helping rebuild Europe"?

From my point of view they deserve a kick in the teeth. I'd take the nazis over the communists any day.

[James Peter]

No, it belongs to Russia, the US and Britain with the US being the most important. Hitler would have wiped russia out if the US hadn't provided them with equipment.

'Providing Equipment' and making money doesn't compare to causing and sustaining more than 75% of the casualties in a conflict. In a single battle the Russians destroyed the equivelant to all the German forces on the Western Front. They paid in blood and tears, as did the occupied territories and beseiged Britain. If the US had intervened earlier, defending Poland alongside Britain and France, then there is a very real possibility that the war would have been much shorter, much genocide may have been avoided and the Cold War as we know it would never have happened.

I'm glad America finally got involved when they did, but their contribution is nothing compared to those who had already been fighting for years.

[Darth Executor]

'Providing Equipment' and making money doesn't compare to causing and sustaining more than 75% of the casualties in a conflict. In a single battle the Russians destroyed the equivelant to all the German forces on the Western Front.Using american weapons They paid in blood and tears, as did the occupied territories and beseiged Britain.

Yes, my country was an occupied territory, but it paid in blood because they had to side with the NAZIs to protect themselves from the communists. Frankly, the russians deserved every single casualty they got. They had no problem tearing through east europe and sharing it with Hitler before and during the beginning of WW2. In addition, the ammount of blood they suffered does not mean they deserve more credit. They were mostly unarmed country thugs that Stalin sent to the slaughterhouse and would have achieved nothing if the US hadn't intervened both to supply them and create a second front.


If the US had intervened earlier, defending Poland alongside Britain and France, then there is a very real possibility that the war would have been much shorter, much genocide may have been avoided and the Cold War as we know it would never have happened.

I agree on this, which is why I'm a bit skeptical about kneeling before americans and praising them as "liberators"

I'm glad America finally got involved when they did, but their contribution is nothing compared to those who had already been fighting for years.

I disagree. All russia did was provide targets for the germans to practice with for most of the war. Like my grandmother used to say:

"The russians kept coming and the germans kept shooting. The germans ran out of ammo."

[TheOneAndOnly]

It is thanks to America that the world does not speak German and Japanese or Russian.

Yes, because speaking German would bring the downfall of civilization.

I still claim that Britain is/was the greatest nation ever.
1)We started Parliamentary democracy. Our parliament isn't known as "the mother of all parliaments" for nothing. British inspired democracy has led to the creation of numerous successfuil nations; India; Australia; South Africa (since Apartheid); New Zealand; Canada; various Carribean nations etc.
2) The English language has become an international language transcending geographical boundaries. Although much of this can be attributed to America, the British Empire spread the English language far and wide. English - the language of England is now a global language.
3) Britain, has given the world some of its greatest thinkers, writers and poets - Newton, Shakespeare, Russell, Babbage, Darwin, Mills, Maxwell, Chaucer, Chesterton, Dickens, Cayley, Hume etc.
4) Britain has given the world some of its greatest adventurers and explorers - Drake, Raleigh, Scott, Livingstone, Shackleton, Gordon.
5) Britain created the largest empire in history. Covering 1/4 of the world. And all this with relatively little warfare. We held India with a few thousand soldiers and civil servents.
6) Britain invented the steam locomotive, the battleship, television, the computer (arguably), various farming innovations etc.
... and all this from a tiny windswept island on the edge of Europe.

[bhukkadakota]

I think i agree with the oneandonly, the british empire was a great empire, and most likely the greatest empire ever. In one attack they wiped out the spanish and portugese fleets to gain navel dominence. I would have thought south africa was mainly the dutch wasnt it?

[TheOneAndOnly]

I would have thought south africa was mainly the dutch wasnt it?

It was first settled (from Europe) by the Dutch. Britain fought a couple of nasty wars in the late 19th century to get them into line, after we discovered gold and minerals in the area.

[Arnold]

Yes, because speaking German would bring the downfall of civilization.

I still claim that Britain is/was the greatest nation ever.
1)We started Parliamentary democracy. Our parliament isn't known as "the mother of all parliaments" for nothing. British inspired democracy has led to the creation of numerous successfuil nations; India; Australia; South Africa (since Apartheid); New Zealand; Canada; various Carribean nations etc.
2) The English language has become an international language transcending geographical boundaries. Although much of this can be attributed to America, the British Empire spread the English language far and wide. English - the language of England is now a global language.
3) Britain, has given the world some of its greatest thinkers, writers and poets - Newton, Shakespeare, Russell, Babbage, Darwin, Mills, Maxwell, Chaucer, Chesterton, Dickens, Cayley, Hume etc.
4) Britain has given the world some of its greatest adventurers and explorers - Drake, Raleigh, Scott, Livingstone, Shackleton, Gordon.
5) Britain created the largest empire in history. Covering 1/4 of the world. And all this with relatively little warfare. We held India with a few thousand soldiers and civil servents.
6) Britain invented the steam locomotive, the battleship, television, the computer (arguably), various farming innovations etc.
... and all this from a tiny windswept island on the edge of Europe.

I thought you only had disdain for empire-building (at least when you accuse the US of it). But Britain's empire is something to laud, huh? Between this contradiction and the one on Iran in the other thread, this just hasn't been your day.

[Arnold]

Yes, because speaking German would bring the downfall of civilization.

Oh sheesh - I almost missed that. Are you suggesting by your sarcasm that it would have been civilized if Hitler had taken over the world?

[Darth Executor]

Oh sheesh - I almost missed that. Are you suggesting by your sarcasm that it would have been civilized if Hitler had taken over the world?


If he's not, then I am. I doubt Hitler's anti-semitism would have lasted long. Frankly, the concentration camp thing is the only beef I have with Hitler. I honestly think a german take-over would have been much better than the soviet mess.

[Arnold]

:lolo: Woe! The kooks are out tonight...

[TheOneAndOnly]

I thought you only had disdain for empire-building (at least when you accuse the US of it).

In the modern world yes. However if you put the British Empire into historical context it is a remarkable feat.
The empire didn't start off as an empire of conquest. Britain didn't want to set up trading outposts and colonies to rival other European nations. Remarkably few battles of significance were fought in the creation of the British empire considering it's vast size.
In the 18th and early 19th century the empire was a somewhat enlightened concept. The idea was to bring education, trade and British values around the globe, which was probably in some way to counter the French and Dutch influences around the world. Briths merchants would take Indian wives and there was a great cross cultural respect for India. And although India wasn't technically ruled by Britain, we extended so much influence over the subcontinent as to stifle the inter-religious and inter-racial fighting which had raged for centuries. Britain's colonies in Australia and Canada, although quite brutal sometimes to the indegineous inhabitants were nothing like previous empires had wrought on their subjects, like Caesar annihilating the Gauls or the Spanish in South America or Belgians in the Congo. The empire was quite a forward-looking machine.
And then, starting around the mid 19th century and continuing towards WW1, things took a a sinister turn. Fear of Russian advances in central Asia, the need to halt Britain's economic decline and the mutinee in India caused Britain to reasess its Imperial ambitions.
Britain did some shameful things in this period, the scramble for Africa, making India a formal Imperial possession and supressing any dissent among others.
However if you look at the overall acheivements of the empire I think it's clear that it did bring a lot of good to the world, more good than bad anyway.
People thing of the Roman empire as a high point of classical civilization even though it was a brutal and murderous empire. In future centuries I expect people will look back fondly of the British Empire. Of course not in America where the empire has to be seen to be the big bad nemesis of the plucky revolutionaries. ;)

So in the modern world I see no reason for American Imperialism, or British imperialism. I'm simply stating what I believe, that the British empire happened, you can't chnage that. And it did a lot of good to the world.

[CatholicSage]

It's a close race between Rome and Britain, but I'll take Rome because its achievements were earlier, and have had more time to blossom into much of civilization as we know it today.

[Arnold]

In the modern world yes. However if you put the British Empire into historical context it is a remarkable feat.
The empire didn't start off as an empire of conquest. Britain didn't want to set up trading outposts and colonies to rival other European nations. Remarkably few battles of significance were fought in the creation of the British empire considering it's vast size.
In the 18th and early 19th century the empire was a somewhat enlightened concept. The idea was to bring education, trade and British values around the globe, which was probably in some way to counter the French and Dutch influences around the world. Briths merchants would take Indian wives and there was a great cross cultural respect for India. And although India wasn't technically ruled by Britain, we extended so much influence over the subcontinent as to stifle the inter-religious and inter-racial fighting which had raged for centuries. Britain's colonies in Australia and Canada, although quite brutal sometimes to the indegineous inhabitants were nothing like previous empires had wrought on their subjects, like Caesar annihilating the Gauls or the Spanish in South America or Belgians in the Congo. The empire was quite a forward-looking machine.
And then, starting around the mid 19th century and continuing towards WW1, things took a a sinister turn. Fear of Russian advances in central Asia, the need to halt Britain's economic decline and the mutinee in India caused Britain to reasess its Imperial ambitions.
Britain did some shameful things in this period, the scramble for Africa, making India a formal Imperial possession and supressing any dissent among others.
However if you look at the overall acheivements of the empire I think it's clear that it did bring a lot of good to the world, more good than bad anyway.
People thing of the Roman empire as a high point of classical civilization even though it was a brutal and murderous empire. In future centuries I expect people will look back fondly of the British Empire. Of course not in America where the empire has to be seen to be the big bad nemesis of the plucky revolutionaries. ;)

So in the modern world I see no reason for American Imperialism, or British imperialism. I'm simply stating what I believe, that the British empire happened, you can't chnage that. And it did a lot of good to the world.

I agree with pretty much everything in your post about the British Empire. I do think that the British Empire was very beneficial to the world. But I don't even see the Americans as imperial, although I know you do. But whatever you want to call what the Americans do, it has also been very benficial for the world, and I see your position as hypocritical.

[CatholicSage]

Ah yes, one thing I forgot to add:

If he's not, then I am. I doubt Hitler's anti-semitism would have lasted long. Frankly, the concentration camp thing is the only beef I have with Hitler. I honestly think a german take-over would have been much better than the soviet mess.

Has it occurred to you that Hitler's anti-semitism wouldn't have lasted long because there would no more semites, period?

[TheOneAndOnly]

I agree with pretty much everything in your post about the British Empire. I do think that the British Empire was very beneficial to the world. But I don't even see the Americans as imperial, although I know you do. But whatever you want to call what the Americans do, it has also been very benficial for the world, and I see your position as hypocritical.

Hold on a second, I never said America isn't beneficial to the world. America has had a great impact spreading freedom to some nations and, just like any other nation has done some terrible things to others (Philipines, Vietnam [I expect you'll disagree here] and Iraq [and here..] to name three).
I think America has spearheaded the current blossoming in knowledge and has been a great experiment in political freedom. I don't like the direction America is heading. Religious fundamentalism, anti-science feelings, the militarization of society (America will soon spend more on military than the rest of the world combined!!!), patriotism verging on nationalism, corrupt leaders and a weak and feeble opposition, lack of respect for the environment and the lack of diplomacy in foreign affairs are leading America into a dark future as I see it.

[Arnold]

Hold on a second, I never said America isn't beneficial to the world. America has had a great impact spreading freedom to some nations and, just like any other nation has done some terrible things to others (Philipines, Vietnam [I expect you'll disagree here] and Iraq [and here..] to name three).
I think America has spearheaded the current blossoming in knowledge and has been a great experiment in political freedom. I don't like the direction America is heading. Religious fundamentalism, anti-science feelings, the militarization of society (America will soon spend more on military than the rest of the world combined!!!), patriotism verging on nationalism, corrupt leaders and a weak and feeble opposition, lack of respect for the environment and the lack of diplomacy in foreign affairs are leading America into a dark future as I see it.

OK I take it back and apologize. But you gotta see it from my side - I've never seen you say anything complimentary about the US, and I was sure you had been very critical of it for being imperialist in the past (though admittedly I may have mixed you up with another poster).

Just sprinkle in the odd compliment in the future and we'll get along wonderfully. :teeth:

[TheOneAndOnly]

No problem.

P.S. I'm not actually a Communist. I do like Che though. But that's for another thread...

[Arnold]

No problem.

P.S. I'm not actually a Communist. I do like Che though. But that's for another thread...

I know you send conflicting signals. I am not quite sure of what to make of where you stand. But no big deal - we can just deal with individual issues as they arise.

[Darth Executor]

Ah yes, one thing I forgot to add:



Has it occurred to you that Hitler's anti-semitism wouldn't have lasted long because there would no more semites, period?

As a Christian, I'd have to say that wouldn't happen. I'm sure God still has a purpose for his people, because they've been extremely lucky throughout history.

[CatholicSage]

As a Christian, I'd have to say that wouldn't happen. I'm sure God still has a purpose for his people, because they've been extremely lucky throughout history.

Good point, but I think that Hitler's defeat may have been precisely what God had in mind to save His people. In any case, I basically agree with your assessment of Hitler; in another thread someone posited the question of what people's opinion of Hitler would be if the Holocaust had never happened, and how comparable he would be to someone like Napoleon. My answer is that I would almost consider Hitler more justified than Napoleon because Germany was definitely subject to grossly unjust punishment after the Versailles treaty. Not that I would like the guy, though, since he still had plenty of other repressive policies.

[evelyn_531]

and is China with its ancient civilization, a well developed system of government and all. Also a highly wholistic view of life.

[Cleombrotus]

Great Britain,

spread civilization, democracy, the rule of law, order and good manners where ever they went. When the days of Empire came to a close, they closed up shop and left behind The Commonwealth - one of the planets more respectable and prestigious world bodies.

All this from a tiny island of only a few score million is an amazing accomplishment and makes Britain the world's greatest nation.


They haven't been a country for too long now but the accomplishments of the Israelis, in terms of their contributions to progress, by proportion, outstrip anything any county has done so far.

[TheOneAndOnly]

They haven't been a country for too long now but the accomplishments of the Israelis, in terms of their contributions to progress, by proportion, outstrip anything any county has done so far.

Assuming that is correct. I don't think it makes Irael the greates nation ever. Inventiveness and ingenuity compared to size is irrelevent. What is relevent is which nation has done the most to advance human civilization. Israel in its 50 year history has done great things (intellectually - lets not get into politics) but can hardly be compared to the likes of Rome, ancient Greece, Britain, America, Perisa, China...

[Cleombrotus]

Assuming that is correct. I don't think it makes Irael the greates nation ever. Inventiveness and ingenuity compared to size is irrelevent. What is relevent is which nation has done the most to advance human civilization. Israel in its 50 year history has done great things (intellectually - lets not get into politics) but can hardly be compared to the likes of Rome, ancient Greece, Britain, America, Perisa, China...


I concede your point. It is well made.

[Ben Franklin]

Greatest nation...? Isn't that an oxymoron...? There hasn't been (and never will be) a nation that lasts forever... All things rise and fall, so get use to it.

[Anoetos]

I agree with the OP, the British Empire at it's height was the best, freest, most enlightened and most efficient government and state ever to arise.

Note: the USA is, clearly, the heir of this tradition and may in fact, be seen in some sense as a continuation of it.

[Amazing Rando]

I agree with the OP, the British Empire at it's height was the best, freest, most enlightened and most efficient government and state ever to arise.

Note: the USA is, clearly, the heir of this tradition and may in fact, be seen in some sense as a continuation of it.

Including or excluding the British Empire's legacy of imperialism and exploitation?

[Anoetos]

Um, that would be...including.

[Amazing Rando]

That's what I thought. :wink:

[Snarf]

Hands down the USA is the greatest country ever. It is thanks to America that the world does not speak German and Japanese or Russian. And it is because of the US that the world will not speak Arabic in the future.

Every free country on the planet owes a debt of gratitude to the USA for either preserving their freedom or allowing their freedom to develop.

I'm sure that the Native Americans are lining up to thanks us for the Trail of Tears and Wounded Knee, and generally stealing their land. Also Mexico who was only too happy to see us take their land in a war of conquest, and all those dictators that we've supported over the years.

[Arnold]

I'm sure that the Native Americans are lining up to thanks us for the Trail of Tears and Wounded Knee, and generally stealing their land. Also Mexico who was only too happy to see us take their land in a war of conquest, and all those dictators that we've supported over the years.I find it amusing that you list these things as if perfection must be attained in order to top the list. Childish. Whatever criticism you can find, the good that America has done in the world more than overshadows it.

[Timothy Leary]

Iceland between the 10th-13th century.

[Timothy Leary]

Do the ends justify the means?

Is the murder of tens of milions of Native Americans justified?

I find it amusing that you list these things as if perfection must be attained in order to top the list. Childish. Whatever criticism you can find, the good that America has done in the world more than overshadows it.

[Timothy Leary]

I find it disturbing that people like murderers.

No problem.

P.S. I'm not actually a Communist. I do like Che though. But that's for another thread...

[Arnold]

Do the ends justify the means?

Is the murder of tens of milions of Native Americans justified?Sometimes you say the stupidest things. How in the world you figure that is what I said is completely beyond me... :ahem:

[C. D. Ward]

I'm very scared right now....

...partly because I find myself agreeing with Arnold...

...and partly because that seems to be happening more frequently...:shocked:

That said, I do have to take issue with those who cited "Greece", because, technically, "Greece" wasn't a nation until modern times (1829). The "Greece" to which posters are referring as the "cradle of civilization" was a collection of nation-states in those ancient times.

[Arnold]

I'm very scared right now....

...partly because I find myself agreeing with Arnold...

...and partly because that seems to be happening more frequently...:shocked:"Welcome to my parlor" said the spider to the fly...



:teeth:

[Snarf]

I find it amusing that you list these things as if perfection must be attained in order to top the list. Childish. Whatever criticism you can find, the good that America has done in the world more than overshadows it.

What good has America done that overshadows enslaving thousands of people, killing thousands of Native Americans, conquering and stealing land that was not our own, giving aid to brutal dictators like Saddam and those in Central America, giving material aid to terrorists like Osama, and killing indigenous peoples in Hawaii? We can't even take the credit for stopping the Nazis, since the Soviets took the brunt of it. It is truly funny watching America give material aid to dictators like Saddam, and then keep quiet about it, and then when we decide to take down the monster we made crow about what a great nation we are.

[Arnold]

What good has America done that overshadows enslaving thousands of people, killing thousands of Native Americans, conquering and stealing land that was not our own, giving aid to brutal dictators like Saddam and those in Central America, giving material aid to terrorists like Osama, and killing indigenous peoples in Hawaii? We can't even take the credit for stopping the Nazis, since the Soviets took the brunt of it. It is truly funny watching America give material aid to dictators like Saddam, and then keep quiet about it, and then when we decide to take down the monster we made crow about what a great nation we are.I see strategic thinking is not your strong point...

[Timothy Leary]

Sometimes you say the stupidest things. How in the world you figure that is what I said is completely beyond me... :ahem:

You said that "the good that America has done in the world more than overshadows it."

I disagree.

The murder of tens of millions of Native Americans does not outweigh the good that we have done.

Then again, if we had stuck to the constitution it those deaths would have never happened.

[Ben Franklin]

I find it amusing that you list these things as if perfection must be attained in order to top the list. Childish. Whatever criticism you can find, the good that America has done in the world more than overshadows it.

Moral relativism, huh...? :ahem:

[Arnold]

You said that "the good that America has done in the world more than overshadows it."

I disagree.

The murder of tens of millions of Native Americans does not outweigh the good that we have done.

Then again, if we had stuck to the constitution it those deaths would have never happened.Then why didn't you say so in the first place instead of insinuating that I somehow thought it was justified?

And where does this "tens of millions" come from? It seems an incredible number...

[TheOneAndOnly]

I find it disturbing that people like murderers.

I model myself on Hannibal Lecter.

[Timothy Leary]

Then why didn't you say so in the first place instead of insinuating that I somehow thought it was justified?

I assumed you had enough brain power to figure out that i was responding to the post of yours I quoted.

And where does this "tens of millions" come from? It seems an incredible number...

According to my current history teacher (who is very conservative, btw), there were approximately 72 million Native Americans before immigrated here.

[Arnold]

I assumed you had enough brain power to figure out that i was responding to the post of yours I quoted.Sheesh! I am really beginning to think it is not possible to have a rational discussion with you.

According to my current history teacher (who is very conservative, btw), there were approximately 72 million Native Americans before immigrated here.I find that extremely hard to believe. Where are these mass graves?

[Timothy Leary]

Sheesh! I am really beginning to think it is not possible to have a rational discussion with you.

It is possible when you are respectful to people. But, you are rarely respectful to those who disagree with you and so I don't feel the need to extend that courteousy to you. I'll be 120% blunt with you, and expect you to do the same.

I find that extremely hard to believe. Where are these mass graves?

My professor also noted that the estimates range between 50-110 million natives (on both continents). Mexico alone had 18 million residents.

Columbus himself, though pre-American, butchered as many as 8 million natives - which led to the extermination of the Taino. The blame for most of the South American genocides lays on Spain. North American massacres are mostly split between us and the English. That being said, I think people who claim we have to repay for something our ancestors from hundreds of years ago did are absolute idiots.

Columbus's programs reduced Taino numbers from as
many as eight million at the outset of his regime to about three
million in 1496. Perhaps 100,000 were left by the time of the
governor's departure. His policies, however, remained, with the
result that by 1514 the Spanish census of the island showed barely
22,000 Indians remaining alive. In 1542, only two hundred were recorded.

http://web.mit.edu/thistle/www/v9/9.11/1columbus.html

[Amazing Rando]

My professor also noted that the estimates range between 50-110 million natives (on both continents). Mexico alone had 18 million residents.

Columbus himself, though pre-American, butchered as many as 8 million natives - which led to the extermination of the Taino. The blame for most of the South American genocides lays on Spain. North American massacres are mostly split between us and the English. That being said, I think people who claim we have to repay for something our ancestors from hundreds of years ago did are absolute idiots.



http://web.mit.edu/thistle/www/v9/9.11/1columbus.html

While true, don't forget that millions more who were not killed by American and British swords or firearms died from epidemics brought over by the Europeans for which the Native Americans had no immunity.

[Arnold]

It is possible when you are respectful to people. But, you are rarely respectful to those who disagree with you and so I don't feel the need to extend that courteousy to you. I'll be 120% blunt with you, and expect you to do the same.Uh... you are the one who suggested that I justified mass murder - very "respectful" of you... :ahem:

My professor also noted that the estimates range between 50-110 million natives (on both continents). Mexico alone had 18 million residents.

Columbus himself, though pre-American, butchered as many as 8 million natives - which led to the extermination of the Taino. The blame for most of the South American genocides lays on Spain. North American massacres are mostly split between us and the English. That being said, I think people who claim we have to repay for something our ancestors from hundreds of years ago did are absolute idiots.



http://web.mit.edu/thistle/www/v9/9.11/1columbus.html
I find all of these numbers too incredible to believe.

[Timothy Leary]

Uh... you are the one who suggested that I justified mass murder - very "respectful" of you... :ahem:

You said that the good we've done outweighs the evil we've done. Mass Murder is one of those evils. Sounds like justifying something to me.

I find all of these numbers too incredible to believe.

Why is it hard for you to believe those numbers (some of which were taken from MIT)? Do you have a hard time with similar numbers from the European nations too?

[Amazing Rando]

I find all of these numbers too incredible to believe.

There are those who say the same thing of the 6 million Jews murdered during the Holocaust.

[Anoetos]

Wow, Rando, when you poison a well you use enough poison to make sure everyone dies, doncha?

Now disputing numbers given by Zinn and others is roughly the same as being a denier of the Shoah?

[Arnold]

There are those who say the same thing of the 6 million Jews murdered during the Holocaust.Nice...

[Amazing Rando]

Wow, Rando, when you poison a well you use enough poison to make sure everyone dies, doncha?

I use genocidal well-poison. :wink:

Now disputing numbers given by Zinn and others is roughly the same as being a denier of the Shoah?

In terms of methodology... it might as well be. Incredulity seems to be the only methodological criticism of the numbers offered thus far.

[Arnold]

You said that the good we've done outweighs the evil we've done. Mass Murder is one of those evils. Sounds like justifying something to me.You are pathetic...


Why is it hard for you to believe those numbers (some of which were taken from MIT)? Do you have a hard time with similar numbers from the European nations too?Those are numbers that nuts like Ward Churchill throw around - he's a proven liar.

[Arnold]

In terms of methodology... it might as well be. Incredulity seems to be the only methodological criticism of the numbers offered thus far.So you think some sort of link war will settle this? Try some Google searches - you'll find the numbers vary by incredible amounts depending on what you read. Here's just one:

Scholars' estimates on the population of indiginous peoples in both Americas at the time of Columbus vary from 8 million to 112 million.

[Amazing Rando]

Hey Arnold, I'm sorry. That was an extraordinarily uncharitable thing for me to say about you and I deeply regret it.

[Arnold]

Hey Arnold, I'm sorry. That was an extraordinarily uncharitable thing for me to say about you and I deeply regret it.OK

[Amazing Rando]

An article from a 1997 US News and World Report found here (http://www.usna.edu/Users/history/kolp/HH345/PRE1492.HTM) has some interesting things to say:

Even if the absolute total is forever unknowable, there are other numbers that tell a haunting tale. In the 1960s, a Berkeley geographer, Carl Sauer, cited evidence of a 1496 census that Columbus's brother Bartholomew ordered for tax purposes on Hispaniola (now Haiti and the Dominican Republic). The Spanish counted 1.1 million Indians. Since that sum covered only Hispaniola's Spanish-controlled half and excluded children, Sauer concluded that 3 million Indians once inhabited the island. But a generation after 1492, a Spanish resident reported Hispaniola's Indian population had shrunk below 11,000.

The island's collapse was only a preview. By 1650, records suggest that only 6 million Indians remained in all of North America, South America, and the Caribbean. Subtract 6 million from even a conservative estimate of the 1492 population--like Denevan's consensus count of 54 million--and one dreadful conclusion is inescapable: The 150 years after Columbus's arrival brought a toll on human life in this hemisphere comparable to all of the world's losses in World War II.

[Arnold]

An article from a 1997 US News and World Report found here (http://www.usna.edu/Users/history/kolp/HH345/PRE1492.HTM) has some interesting things to say:

Even if the absolute total is forever unknowable, there are other numbers that tell a haunting tale. In the 1960s, a Berkeley geographer, Carl Sauer, cited evidence of a 1496 census that Columbus's brother Bartholomew ordered for tax purposes on Hispaniola (now Haiti and the Dominican Republic). The Spanish counted 1.1 million Indians. Since that sum covered only Hispaniola's Spanish-controlled half and excluded children, Sauer concluded that 3 million Indians once inhabited the island. But a generation after 1492, a Spanish resident reported Hispaniola's Indian population had shrunk below 11,000.

The island's collapse was only a preview. By 1650, records suggest that only 6 million Indians remained in all of North America, South America, and the Caribbean. Subtract 6 million from even a conservative estimate of the 1492 population--like Denevan's consensus count of 54 million--and one dreadful conclusion is inescapable: The 150 years after Columbus's arrival brought a toll on human life in this hemisphere comparable to all of the world's losses in World War II.So what does all this prove - that America is evil and not worthy of recognition of a rich history of making this world a better place? You have to go back 500 years to bash an America that never existed then. What's the point? Do I have to go back in the thread to see if you objected to the Romans and their death-filled empire? Or is America the only one evil enough in your eyes to warrant this sort of scrutiny?

[Amazing Rando]

So what does all this prove - that America is evil and not worthy of recognition of a rich history of making this world a better place? You have to go back 500 years to bash an America that never existed then. What's the point? Do I have to go back in the thread to see if you objected to the Romans and their death-filled empire? Or is America the only one evil enough in your eyes to warrant this sort of scrutiny?

It's the only major one that many major revisionist historians have attempted to whitewash. While the estimates of tens of millions killed by American and British settlers are almost certainly enormous overstatements (at least in the context of the tens of millions who died at the hands of the Spanish Conquistadores and the diseases they brought), it's still one of the largest black marks on the history of an otherwise generally good nation's contributions to history.

[CatholicSage]

:argh: AAHH! I feel I shouldn't even need to say this, but "population decline" is not nearly the same as "murder." The prime culprit for Native American deaths has always been foreign diseases. These diseases killed the especially weak and vulnerable in society, namely the young and elderly. Now, the deaths of the elderly wouldn't have contributed very much to the population decline because they had already finished making offspring anyway, but the deaths of children cut off entire family lines and could greatly shrink population. It's not so much that millions were murdered, it's that the "right ones" were killed (though I hate using that terminology).

BTW, some population projections predict that Japan may, by 2050, have a population of about 100 million compared to 127 million today. Would it be accurate to say that between now and then, 27 million Japanese will be murdered?

[Timothy Leary]

You are pathetic...

So are you. Now do you have anything of value to say?

Those are numbers that nuts like Ward Churchill throw around - he's a proven liar.

I see you've mastered the art of poisoning the well, as well. Did it ever occur to you that Ward Churchill probably got his numbers from someone else - come on, I think it should be obvious to even you that he's a complete idiot and wouldn't be smart enough to come up with that sort of stuff on his own.

[Timothy Leary]

The point, dear Arnold (which you would have grasped, if you had listened to us...) is that the evil did not outweigh the good. Now that I've said this yet again, hopefully it will click inside your head.

Am I saying that America is some horrible evil place to live? Heck no.

[Arnold]

The point, dear Arnold (which you would have grasped, if you had listened to us...) is that the evil did not outweigh the good. Now that I've said this yet again, hopefully it will click inside your head.

Am I saying that America is some horrible evil place to live? Heck no.The real point is that you accused me of justifying mass murder. You make me out to be some sort of monster because I see America as a net benefit to the world. Buzz off jerk...

[Jimmy Higgins]

So what does all this prove - Well you were questioning how many millions of people lived in the Americas. Amazing Rando found a good reliable source to provide an answer. You should atleast thank him for that.

[Arnold]

Well you were questioning how many millions of people lived in the Americas. Amazing Rando found a good reliable source to provide an answer. You should atleast thank him for that.I wasn't questioning it - I illustrated that it is at best a guessing game. And the issue is whether America is warranted the praise that I gave it.

[Jimmy Higgins]

I wasn't questioning it - I illustrated that it is at best a guessing game. And the issue is whether America is warranted the praise that I gave it.
You said "Every free country on the planet owes a debt of gratitude to the USA for either preserving their freedom or allowing their freedom to develop."

Does this include the Shi'ites we helped to lead a revolt and never backed up? Or the Afghani's we abandoned after we helped them defeat the Soviet invasion?

The US is worthy of some praise, however, it amazes me how infalliable some people think this country is.

[anthrogirl]

The US is worthy of some praise, however, it amazes me how infalliable some people think this country is.

It's very easy to think that one's country is infallible if one never leaves their country. To my knowledge, Americans tend to stay in America. This means that they can view the world only through their American spectacles.

ag

[Amazing Rando]

It's very easy to think that one's country is infallible if one never leaves their country. To my knowledge, Americans tend to stay in America. This means that they can view the world only through their American spectacles.

ag

I spent a semester in Australia in 2002- it was really eye-opening to see how differently the Aussies perceive Americans than we perceive ourselves.

[Amazing Rando]

Well you were questioning how many millions of people lived in the Americas. Amazing Rando found a good reliable source to provide an answer. You should atleast thank him for that.

Here's (http://www.historychannel.com/thcsearch/thc_resourcedetail.do?encyc_id=200878) a link from the History Channel that roughly corroborates what the US News and World Report article had to say:

At the time of first European contact, North and South America may have been peopled by more than 90 million American Indians: about 10 million in America north of present-day Mexico; 30 million in Mexico; 11 million in Central America; 445,000 in the Caribbean islands; 30 million in the South American Andean region; and 9 million in the remainder of South America. These population figures are a rough estimate (some authorities cite much lower figures); exact figures are impossible to ascertain. When colonists began keeping records, the American Indian populations had been drastically reduced by war, famine, forced labor, and epidemics of European diseases.

[Arnold]

You said "Every free country on the planet owes a debt of gratitude to the USA for either preserving their freedom or allowing their freedom to develop."

Does this include the Shi'ites we helped to lead a revolt and never backed up? Or the Afghani's we abandoned after we helped them defeat the Soviet invasion?

The US is worthy of some praise, however, it amazes me how infalliable some people think this country is.Uh, it was your oh so important UN who nixed going after Saddam the first time. And when you say America "abandoned" the Afghans you suggest that America was taking care of them in the first place - all the States did was help them militarily. When that military aid was no longer needed it ended. And aren't you one of the liberals that are always whining that America is so evil because we helped OBL during the Afghan/Soviet war?!? You can't have it both ways...

This is such a stretch - why are you sooooo determined to show that America is evil? It seems you will grasp at anything - please explain to me why anyone reading your desperate attemps should not come to the conclusion that you just plain hate America...

[Arnold]

It's very easy to think that one's country is infallible if one never leaves their country. To my knowledge, Americans tend to stay in America. This means that they can view the world only through their American spectacles.

agWell if that was aimed at me, I live in Caknuckleheadland - and believe me when I say that a lot of Caknuckleheads hate America. So my view of the world is not "only through their American spectacles".

[Timothy Leary]

Uh, it was your oh so important UN who nixed going after Saddam the first time.

We wouldn't have had to go in at all if we hadn't suddently stopped supplying the Iraqi rebels who had nearly won the civil war and overthrown Saddam (they had overthrown all but one province).

[Timothy Leary]

Canada isn't that much different, overall.

Try going for somewhere that isn't sharing a border with America.

Well if that was aimed at me, I live in Caknuckleheadland - and believe me when I say that a lot of Caknuckleheads hate America. So my view of the world is not "only through their American spectacles".

[Timothy Leary]

The real point is that you accused me of justifying mass murder. You make me out to be some sort of monster because I see America as a net benefit to the world. Buzz off jerk...

I only asked a question. You said that America has done more harm than good. I'm asking if you really think that the mass murder of tens of millioins of Native Americans was outweighted by the good that America has done so far.

...and I have yet to recieve a response. You still seem to be in Holocaust denial.

[Arnold]

I only asked a question. You said that America has done more harm than good. I'm asking if you really think that the mass murder of tens of millioins of Native Americans was outweighted by the good that America has done so far.

...and I have yet to recieve a response. You still seem to be in Holocaust denial.Are you really so stupid as to think I wouldn'd go back and throw your words in your face?!?

Do the ends justify the means?

Is the murder of tens of milions of Native Americans justified?

You said that the good we've done outweighs the evil we've done. Mass Murder is one of those evils. Sounds like justifying something to me.First you accuse me of justifying mass muder. Then you deny it. Are your brains really so scrambled?

[anthrogirl]

Well if that was aimed at me, I live in Caknuckleheadland - and believe me when I say that a lot of Caknuckleheads hate America. So my view of the world is not "only through their American spectacles".

Nope. I wasn't referring to you. But thank you for sharing your perspective. I am curious though--what is your point in saying "a lot of Caknuckleheads hate America"?

best,
ag

[Ruth]

Yes Anthrogirl most Americans have a very myopic view of the world indeed. I often hear them say America is the greatest country in the world. When I ask them how many countries they're been to I get the same answer. Most will never travel overseas. The few who do never look at America the same way again. Eye opening is a mild term I think.

[Jimmy Higgins]

Uh, it was your oh so important UN who nixed going after Saddam the first time.Not really. What I said was the US riled up the Shi'ites to revolt against Hussein. Had we given them some air support, they could have taken Hussein down. At the very least, we could have prevented the slaughter.
And when you say America "abandoned" the Afghans you suggest that America was taking care of them in the first place - all the States did was help them militarily.We helped fight a de facto war against the Soviets.
When that military aid was no longer needed it ended. And aren't you one of the liberals that are always whining that America is so evil because we helped OBL during the Afghan/Soviet war?!? You can't have it both ways...The issue at hand was using Afghanistan as a platform for our Cold War against the Soviet Union. Had the US helped to rebuild Afghanistan after the invasion was repelled, the vaccum that formed in Afghanistan wouldn't have existed for Pakistan to place the Taliban in. OBL may never have become the man he is today had we rebuilt Afghanistan. Alot of ifs or coulds, however, certainly thoughts worth pondering.

This is such a stretchYour posts typically are stretches.
- why are you sooooo determined to show that America is evil?I'm hardly "sooooo determined" to any such thing. I already noted that the "US is worthy of some praise." Can't praise something if it's evil. The US has helped to contribute alot to the world. The Constitution in of itself perhaps it's greatest gift, the first successful large scale democracy in the world's history. Since then, there has been good and bad. We tipped the scales in WWI. We won WWII. However, we did some damage in the Cold War. Did some good too in the Cold War as well.

It seems you will grasp at anything - please explain to me why anyone reading your desperate attemps should not come to the conclusion that you just plain hate America...Such a grandiose statement, such a harsh and biting claim. It can only come from someone who is indoctrinated by a cult of some sort. I most certainly don't hate America. Despite the Bush Administration, the US is honestly the best country to live in. This isn't opinion, it's fact... atleast from a heterosexual white male's point of view. This doesn't preclude America's responsibility for mistakes though. Nor does it mean the US is infalliable. The US, for the longest time, was able to enact foreign policy without ever having to see it's results or suffer the burden of it's mistakes.

Just because you don't bother to accept the reality that America is capable of messing up, like it has in the Middle East, time and time again, doesn't mean America doesn't screw up and have their actions hurt foreign innocents. The US applied democracy and rewards innovation. It offers the most freedoms to individuals than any other country, I believe. This doesn't mean American actions with other countries haven't had deleterious effects. The recognition of error is a foundation of strength not of hatred.

[Arnold]

Nope. I wasn't referring to you. But thank you for sharing your perspective. I am curious though--what is your point in saying "a lot of Caknuckleheads hate America"?

best,
agWell you seemed to have been saying that Americans don't hear the negative side about America. I just wanted to illustrate that I hear lots of it, and I still see it as "The Greatest Nation in the World EVER was...."

[Arnold]

Not really. What I said was the US riled up the Shi'ites to revolt against Hussein. Had we given them some air support, they could have taken Hussein down. At the very least, we could have prevented the slaughter.
We helped fight a de facto war against the Soviets.
The issue at hand was using Afghanistan as a platform for our Cold War against the Soviet Union. Had the US helped to rebuild Afghanistan after the invasion was repelled, the vaccum that formed in Afghanistan wouldn't have existed for Pakistan to place the Taliban in. OBL may never have become the man he is today had we rebuilt Afghanistan. Alot of ifs or coulds, however, certainly thoughts worth pondering.

Your posts typically are stretches.
I'm hardly "sooooo determined" to any such thing. I already noted that the "US is worthy of some praise." Can't praise something if it's evil. The US has helped to contribute alot to the world. The Constitution in of itself perhaps it's greatest gift, the first successful large scale democracy in the world's history. Since then, there has been good and bad. We tipped the scales in WWI. We won WWII. However, we did some damage in the Cold War. Did some good too in the Cold War as well.

Such a grandiose statement, such a harsh and biting claim. It can only come from someone who is indoctrinated by a cult of some sort. I most certainly don't hate America. Despite the Bush Administration, the US is honestly the best country to live in. This isn't opinion, it's fact... atleast from a heterosexual white male's point of view. This doesn't preclude America's responsibility for mistakes though. Nor does it mean the US is infalliable. The US, for the longest time, was able to enact foreign policy without ever having to see it's results or suffer the burden of it's mistakes.

Just because you don't bother to accept the reality that America is capable of messing up, like it has in the Middle East, time and time again, doesn't mean America doesn't screw up and have their actions hurt foreign innocents. The US applied democracy and rewards innovation. It offers the most freedoms to individuals than any other country, I believe. This doesn't mean American actions with other countries haven't had deleterious effects. The recognition of error is a foundation of strength not of hatred.Well that's all I wanted - an explanation. You are just about the most consistently negative poster when it comes to tearing down America. I just wanted to read with my own eyes that you don't hate America, because I was really starting to wonder...

[anthrogirl]

Well you seemed to have been saying that Americans don't hear the negative side about America. I just wanted to illustrate that I hear lots of it, and I still see it as "The Greatest Nation in the World EVER was...."

Nope. What I said was:

It's very easy to think that one's country is infallible if one never leaves their country. To my knowledge, Americans tend to stay in America. This means that they can view the world only through their American spectacles.

ag

I made no value statements about negative/positive perceptions of America. At any rate, what point were you trying to make when you said "a lot of Canuckleheads hate America"? I want to know what you mean by that, or were you just using that statement as artillery against America? I found your statement to be a bit vague, and I'm respectfully requesting that you elaborate, so that I may better understand you.

thanks,
ag

[Arnold]

Nope. What I said was:



I made no value statements about negative/positive perceptions of America. At any rate, what point were you trying to make when you said "a lot of Canuckleheads hate America"? I want to know what you mean by that, or were you just using that statement as artillery against America? I found your statement to be a bit vague, and I'm respectfully requesting that you elaborate, so that I may better understand you.

thanks,
agOh brother... :ahem:

[Jimmy Higgins]

Well that's all I wanted - an explanation. You are just about the most consistently negative poster when it comes to tearing down America. I just wanted to read with my own eyes that you don't hate America, because I was really starting to wonder...My actions speak louder than your words regarding how each of us feel about this country.

[Arnold]

My actions speak louder than your words regarding how each of us feel about this country.Well I can only see your words, and they don't paint a pretty picture.

[Timothy Leary]

Are you really so stupid as to think I wouldn'd go back and throw your words in your face?!?

First you accuse me of justifying mass muder. Then you deny it. Are your brains really so scrambled?

Those quotes prove my point.

First I asked you if the ends justified the means, and if the mass murder of Native Americans was justified.

Then I pointed out that what you were saying "sounds" like justification.


Are your brains really so scrambled that you couldn't figure that out?

[CatholicSage]

Yes Anthrogirl most Americans have a very myopic view of the world indeed. I often hear them say America is the greatest country in the world. When I ask them how many countries they're been to I get the same answer. Most will never travel overseas. The few who do never look at America the same way again. Eye opening is a mild term I think.

I've been to Canada, Mexico, Poland, Germany, the Czech Republic, and soon Japan, and I still think America is the greatest country in the world right now, as great as those other countries may be. Why do you think Americans who travel dislike America after doing so?

BTW, what makes you think that people from other countries have a much less myopic view of the world? That is your implication at any rate, and I certainly don't appreciate it; it reveals more about your own ignorance than that of Americans. People from other countries are hardly all enlightened internationalists.

[Ben Franklin]

I can wave my flag better than anybody...! And it's bigger and better than your flag...! And I love my country more than anybody...! I'm a super-rabid-zealy patriotic, ummm.... patriot...! That's what I am...! And I have the high moral ground because I wave my country's flag...! So there...! I win...! :doh:

[CatholicSage]

I can wave my flag better than anybody...! And it's bigger and better than your flag...! And I love my country more than anybody...! I'm a super-rabid-zealy patriotic, ummm.... patriot...! That's what I am...! And I have the high moral ground because I wave my country's flag...! So there...! I win...! :doh:

Are you referring to me?

[Ben Franklin]

Are you referring to me?

Not at all: I was parodying in general only. Why do you ask...? :huh:

[CatholicSage]

Not at all: I was parodying in general only. Why do you ask...? :huh:

You posted immediately after me, so I wasn't sure if it was a coincidence or if you were replying to me.

[Jimmy Higgins]

Well I can only see your words, and they don't paint a pretty picture.And only if it mattered what you thought. :lol:

[Arnold]

And only if it mattered what you thought. :lol:Why did you even bother replying then? Afraid maybe others are seeing the same things that I am?

[Jimmy Higgins]

Why did you even bother replying then?You make a very good point. *click*

[Timothy Leary]

You make a very good point. *click*

:lol:

[Pilgrim]

greatest nation? RED SOX NATION!!!!

[CatholicSage]

greatest nation? RED SOX NATION!!!!

Sorry, I thought you guys lost. Go White Sox!!

[Pilgrim]

Oh that's what makes them so great. The ability to step aside so another great team can finally have their moment. Providing they can get past the Angels.

[Timothy Leary]

Hrm... how about the Savage Nation? *evil grin*

[Snarf]

I've been to Canada, Mexico, Poland, Germany, the Czech Republic, and soon Japan, and I still think America is the greatest country in the world right now, as great as those other countries may be. Why do you think Americans who travel dislike America after doing so?

BTW, what makes you think that people from other countries have a much less myopic view of the world? That is your implication at any rate, and I certainly don't appreciate it; it reveals more about your own ignorance than that of Americans. People from other countries are hardly all enlightened internationalists.
I lived in Central Europe for a number of years, I wouldn't say that I disliked America after that, I'd say that I disliked the American attitude that everything in this country is better than everywhere else, or that the world owes us some debt of gratitude ala Arnold and his "all free nations should thank us."
Some things about America are very nice, like the landscape and different foods. The beer's lousy, as is the bread. Also, big American cities are much scarier places than big European cities (I come from NYC). Also, it's nice to live in places where people aren't so passionately devoted to guns.

Regarding being myopic, I can't speak for other continents but I can say that many Europeans are much less myopic than many Americans from non-international American cities and small towns for one simple reason. Europe has a much higher population density and a much greater concentration of different languages and cultures than in nearly all places in America. Living in Europe, even on a simple train trip you're likely to encounter people from different African countries, Arabs, gypsies, Jews, and people from many different countries in Europe. Most people in continental Europe can speak several different languages. Europe is the focal point of commerce from many places in Asia and Africa, and at this time is experiencing immigration problems similar to that which America experiences. Thus, Europeans have to relate to people from many different cultures on a regular basis, which is something that most Americans don't, except for those in coastal international cities like Miami, NYC, San Francisco, etc.

[Ryokan]

Hrm... how about the Savage Nation? *evil grin*
Michael savage should be drug out into the street and shot :wink: