Our Featured Member Article: What ever happened to the Father? by Jaltus

[Trout]

You enter a church service, and after the opening prayer the band begins a song and everyone sings. The chorus to the song goes something like this:

I'm coming back to the heart of worship, and
It's all about you, it's all about you, Jesus.
I'm sorry, Lord, for the thing I've made it,
And it's all about you, it's all about you, Jesus.

Okay, you think to yourself, it is fine to be Jesus-centered.

The pastor comes up and prays to "the Lord," thanking Him for dying on the cross. He ends his prayer with, "in Jesus' name we pray, Amen."

Okay, you think to yourself, it is fine to be Jesus-centered.

Next there is an announcement made about an Evangelism workshop. The person in charge of organizing it stands up and begins to talk about cross-centered Evangelism and the importance of not being ashamed of the gospel, that we need to let everyone know that Jesus is our Lord and Master.

Okay, you think to yourself, it is fine to be Jesus-centered.

Finally, it is time for the sermon. The pastor has decided to preach on Romans 8:31-39. The text is read aloud, then the preacher goes on to talk about the terrible sacrafice of Christ, how He allowed Himself to be put to death for us, about how He came and took our place, and how this saves us forever and should be a cause of joy.

Okay, you think to yourself, it is fine to be Jesus-centered...

...just then, something strikes you...

...WHAT HAPPENED TO THE FATHER?

You go back and reread Romans 8:31-39, and you realize it has little or nothing to do with what the pastor just preached. The passage is not about the Son, it is about the Father!

Romans 8:31-39 31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32 He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things? 33 Who shall bring any charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies. 34 Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died- more than that, who was raised- who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us. 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword? 36 As it is written, "For your sake we are being killed all the day long; we are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered." 37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38 For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Romans 8:31 is a clear summary statement, but a summary of what? Commentators tend to take the reference to be more than just 8:28-30, rather they take the reference to be to Romans 5-8 as a whole (Cranfield, Fitzmyer, Moo, Schreiner, cf. Dunn who limits it to 6-8). The point of this first verse is that in light of Paul's comments about the state of man and God's response to that state, nobody can stand in God's way.

Romans 8:32 is where it gets interesting. Note who the subject of the verse is, "he who," namely the Father. How do we know it is the Father? Look at the object: "did not spare his own Son," obviously the Son is the object, making the Father the subject. This is a clear allusion to Genesis 22:12, 16, where the words used are very close. Abraham did not spare his own son Isaac when God asked for him to be sacrificed. While this is a slightly controversial claim (in other words not all scholars agree), the parallels in the Greek are uncanny. This means that 8:32 is not about Jesus allowing Himself to be taken, rather it is about the Father handing over (the same exact word used for Judas' betrayal) the Son to be crucified. The idea is that if God can hand over His own Son for our sake, while He not do everything for us?

All you parents, think about how hard it would be to not just allow one of your children to be hurt, but to send them into a situation for the express purpose of having them killed. Could you do that? "Greater love has no man than this, that he lay down his life for his friends." I think God's love surpasses this in that greater love has never been seen, that God lay down His Son's life for His enemies.

Romans 8:33 focuses on God's relationship to His people. We are "His elect." No charge can be brought against us, nor can anyone condemn us since God the Father is the judge of all, only He can say who is actually righteous (i.e. justified).

Romans 8:34 seems to be about Jesus, focusing on His role in our salvation, but is it? We just saw that Jesus' death and resurrection came about according to the Father. Thus, Jesus' acts are all subsumed here under the will and doing of the Father. Note that Jesus intercedes for the elect, but to whom does He direct His pleas? Obviously, since 8:33 is understood in a forensic (i.e. court-trial) sense, the Father is the one to whom He pleads. Once again, this is Father-focused.

Romas 8:35 deals with the love of Christ. Now the question is what does that mean? Is it our love for Him? Nothing points that way. Is it His love for us? All commentators seem to take it that way. Here we have moved seemingly from God's love to Christ's love. Remember, though, that Christ's love is demonstrated at God's command. This love is not a mushy emotion, it is an ACTION. Also, it is clearly God's power which keeps anything from separating us from His love. Well, if this is so God-focused, then perhaps this is not referring to Christ's love for us, perhaps it means God's love for Christ? After all, that is what the first half of this paragraph is about, God's love for Christ and for us!

Romans 8:36 is a quotation of Psalm 44:22 (LXX, or more appropriately OG, 43:23). It shows Israel calling out to God, letting Him know that they are suffering for His sake. Here it can only refer to the suffering of Christians for their faith, but it is placed under the umbrella of suffering for God. Thus, suffering for the faith is not a punishment, it is a demonstration of the Father's love! This strengthens the idea that 8:35 is referring to God's love for Christ.

Romans 8:37 talks about the victory of the Christian through the one who loved us. What does 8:31 say? It says that if GOD is for us, nobody can stand against us. This means it is referring here to the Father's love once again, not the love of Christ for us. Thus it is the Father who empowers us, who keeps us, and who gives us victory (note that only the Father can declare us just, cf. 8:33).

Romans 8:38-39 clarifies things for us, letting us see that it is God's love demonstrated in the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus which saves us. Romans 8:31-39 is referring throughout to the love and role of the Father, using the Son just to point back to the Father.

Is it about Jesus? Yes.

Is it all about Jesus? No.

It is all about God, meaning Father, Son, and Spirit, Three in One.

Don't forget the Father. If there is no Father, there is no Son, for a Son needs a Father in order to be a Son.

What happened to the Father? We were blinded by the Son. It is time we began looking for His Father, and our Father, His God, and our God.

500

Notice - The featuring of a particular article does not constitute endorsement of every single item or point of view contained therein by each and every member of TheologyWeb leadership. We strive to have a varied cross-section of representations of differing opinions on secondary Christian issues. The only requirement for the featuring of a particular article is that said article must not contradict the essentials articulated in the TheologyWeb statement of faith found here in our Mission Statement (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/mission/)or be blatantly offensive to the Christian worldview of the site Owners.

[John Reece]

You enter a church service, and after the opening prayer the band begins a song and everyone sings. The chorus to the song goes something like this:

I'm coming back to the heart of worship, and
It's all about you, it's all about you, Jesus.
I'm sorry, Lord, for the thing I've made it,
And it's all about you, it's all about you, Jesus.

Okay, you think to yourself, it is fine to be Jesus-centered.

The pastor comes up and prays to "the Lord," thanking Him for dying on the cross. He ends his prayer with, "in Jesus' name we pray, Amen."

Okay, you think to yourself, it is fine to be Jesus-centered.

Next there is an announcement made about an Evangelism workshop. The person in charge of organizing it stands up and begins to talk about cross-centered Evangelism and the importance of not being ashamed of the gospel, that we need to let everyone know that Jesus is our Lord and Master.

Okay, you think to yourself, it is fine to be Jesus-centered.

Finally, it is time for the sermon. The pastor has decided to preach on Romans 8:31-39. The text is read aloud, then the preacher goes on to talk about the terrible sacrafice of Christ, how He allowed Himself to be put to death for us, about how He came and took our place, and how this saves us forever and should be a cause of joy.

Okay, you think to yourself, it is fine to be Jesus-centered...

...just then, something strikes you...

...WHAT HAPPENED TO THE FATHER?

You go back and reread Romans 8:31-39, and you realize it has little or nothing to do with what the pastor just preached. The passage is not about the Son, it is about the Father!

Romans 8:31-39 31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32 He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things? 33 Who shall bring any charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies. 34 Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died- more than that, who was raised- who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us. 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword? 36 As it is written, "For your sake we are being killed all the day long; we are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered." 37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38 For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Romans 8:31 is a clear summary statement, but a summary of what? Commentators tend to take the reference to be more than just 8:28-30, rather they take the reference to be to Romans 5-8 as a whole (Cranfield, Fitzmyer, Moo, Schreiner, cf. Dunn who limits it to 6-8). The point of this first verse is that in light of Paul's comments about the state of man and God's response to that state, nobody can stand in God's way.

Romans 8:32 is where it gets interesting. Note who the subject of the verse is, "he who," namely the Father. How do we know it is the Father? Look at the object: "did not spare his own Son," obviously the Son is the object, making the Father the subject. This is a clear allusion to Genesis 22:12, 16, where the words used are very close. Abraham did not spare his own son Isaac when God asked for him to be sacrificed. While this is a slightly controversial claim (in other words not all scholars agree), the parallels in the Greek are uncanny. This means that 8:32 is not about Jesus allowing Himself to be taken, rather it is about the Father handing over (the same exact word used for Judas' betrayal) the Son to be crucified. The idea is that if God can hand over His own Son for our sake, while He not do everything for us?

All you parents, think about how hard it would be to not just allow one of your children to be hurt, but to send them into a situation for the express purpose of having them killed. Could you do that? "Greater love has no man than this, that he lay down his life for his friends." I think God's love surpasses this in that greater love has never been seen, that God lay down His Son's life for His enemies.

Romans 8:33 focuses on God's relationship to His people. We are "His elect." No charge can be brought against us, nor can anyone condemn us since God the Father is the judge of all, only He can say who is actually righteous (i.e. justified).

Romans 8:34 seems to be about Jesus, focusing on His role in our salvation, but is it? We just saw that Jesus' death and resurrection came about according to the Father. Thus, Jesus' acts are all subsumed here under the will and doing of the Father. Note that Jesus intercedes for the elect, but to whom does He direct His pleas? Obviously, since 8:33 is understood in a forensic (i.e. court-trial) sense, the Father is the one to whom He pleads. Once again, this is Father-focused.

Romas 8:35 deals with the love of Christ. Now the question is what does that mean? Is it our love for Him? Nothing points that way. Is it His love for us? All commentators seem to take it that way. Here we have moved seemingly from God's love to Christ's love. Remember, though, that Christ's love is demonstrated at God's command. This love is not a mushy emotion, it is an ACTION. Also, it is clearly God's power which keeps anything from separating us from His love. Well, if this is so God-focused, then perhaps this is not referring to Christ's love for us, perhaps it means God's love for Christ? After all, that is what the first half of this paragraph is about, God's love for Christ and for us!

Romans 8:36 is a quotation of Psalm 44:22 (LXX, or more appropriately OG, 43:23). It shows Israel calling out to God, letting Him know that they are suffering for His sake. Here it can only refer to the suffering of Christians for their faith, but it is placed under the umbrella of suffering for God. Thus, suffering for the faith is not a punishment, it is a demonstration of the Father's love! This strengthens the idea that 8:35 is referring to God's love for Christ.

Romans 8:37 talks about the victory of the Christian through the one who loved us. What does 8:31 say? It says that if GOD is for us, nobody can stand against us. This means it is referring here to the Father's love once again, not the love of Christ for us. Thus it is the Father who empowers us, who keeps us, and who gives us victory (note that only the Father can declare us just, cf. 8:33).

Romans 8:38-39 clarifies things for us, letting us see that it is God's love demonstrated in the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus which saves us. Romans 8:31-39 is referring throughout to the love and role of the Father, using the Son just to point back to the Father.

Is it about Jesus? Yes.

Is it all about Jesus? No.

It is all about God, meaning Father, Son, and Spirit, Three in One.

Don't forget the Father. If there is no Father, there is no Son, for a Son needs a Father in order to be a Son.

What happened to the Father? We were blinded by the Son. It is time we began looking for His Father, and our Father, His God, and our God.

500

Notice - The featuring of a particular article does not constitute endorsement of every single item or point of view contained therein by each and every member of TheologyWeb leadership. We strive to have a varied cross-section of representations of differing opinions on secondary Christian issues. The only requirement for the featuring of a particular article is that said article must not contradict the essentials articulated in the TheologyWeb statement of faith found here in our Mission Statement (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/mission/)or be blatantly offensive to the Christian worldview of the site Owners.

Seven stars :thumb:

[Spinyn00bman]

certainly excellent food for thougt!

[Jaltus]

Thank you.

[markporter]

Don't forget the Father.

Don't forget The Spirit either....

[Jaltus]

Don't forget The Spirit either....

Exactly. The typical slam against Evangelicals is that we believe in the Father, Son, and Holy Scripture.

[Lizard]

Awsome article Big J. I agree 200%. It is amazing how the Father gets the back seat to the Son, and the Spirit is almost ignored completely.

FYI, about 6 months ago, I became so convicted about this that I now end all of my prayers, "In the name of God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit".

I worship a Triune God.

[Spiritus Naturae]

Finally got around to reading this one. Great article and so very true. The Father is so often neglected. I always address my prayers and petitions to my 'Heavenly Father' and ask those things be so 'in Jesus name'. That 'formula' seems foreign in some congregations.

[His child]

Finally got around to reading this one. Great article and so very true. The Father is so often neglected. I always address my prayers and petitions to my 'Heavenly Father' and ask those things be so 'in Jesus name'. That 'formula' seems foreign in some congregations.
Where my lack of understanding in this thread (although, not only do I agree with the premise, it is a thread I think that should have more prominence), what is the highest calling of a Christian?

My understanding is we are (to summarize, and correct me if I make any mistakes - I know that won't happen :ahem: ) glorify God as Jesus did. Now, Jesus was praying to "the Father," who has an agape love for us all. We are to:
1. agape with our Father
2. doxa for our Father

Jesus was very specific in His mission, "Glorify (to the Father) Me so I may glorify You!"

My point in that thread, at is my point in this post, is that our reference to the Father should be as Jesus' prayer ... we are not to glorify ourselves, but glorify YHWH through the promises we believe through the Scriptures themselves (themself?) promise us, that YHWH will deliver to His children His promises.

Excellent food for thought, but what is next?

I would imagine that we will say that Jesus and YHWH are one and the same, but my question is, why would Jesus be praying to YHWH to do what YHWH promised, if it is one and the same ... (fill in the blank, and I know I'm dumb for opening up that option!)

I believe our understaning is biased and limited, based upon our current understanding of Scripture, so help me understand ... FROM SCRIPTURE ... where I am limited in understanding.

Blessings to all of you who will increase my understanding, awareness and rightly dividing the Word of God.

[sonofyah]

certainly excellent food for thougt!

1 John 4:6

[sonofyah]

Awsome article Big J. I agree 200%. It is amazing how the Father gets the back seat to the Son, and the Spirit is almost ignored completely.

FYI, about 6 months ago, I became so convicted about this that I now end all of my prayers, "In the name of God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit".

I worship a Triune God.
That is not Biblical...you cannot find Triune, Trinity, Rapture, Jesus, God, Lord, Easter, Christmas, Halloween or Good Friday in the Scriptures. Futhermore you certainly wont find it in the Hebrew, Greek, or Latin...Wake Up people there is a spirit of Apostasy in the church and if your not deaply rooted in the Truth you will stay under that spell...Read the book of Yahudah aka Jude...

[George Murphy]

You enter a church service, and after the opening prayer the band begins a song and everyone sings. The chorus to the song goes something like this:

I'm coming back to the heart of worship, and
It's all about you, it's all about you, Jesus.
I'm sorry, Lord, for the thing I've made it,
And it's all about you, it's all about you, Jesus.

Okay, you think to yourself, it is fine to be Jesus-centered.

The pastor comes up and prays to "the Lord," thanking Him for dying on the cross. He ends his prayer with, "in Jesus' name we pray, Amen."

Okay, you think to yourself, it is fine to be Jesus-centered.

Next there is an announcement made about an Evangelism workshop. The person in charge of organizing it stands up and begins to talk about cross-centered Evangelism and the importance of not being ashamed of the gospel, that we need to let everyone know that Jesus is our Lord and Master.

Okay, you think to yourself, it is fine to be Jesus-centered.

Finally, it is time for the sermon. The pastor has decided to preach on Romans 8:31-39. The text is read aloud, then the preacher goes on to talk about the terrible sacrafice of Christ, how He allowed Himself to be put to death for us, about how He came and took our place, and how this saves us forever and should be a cause of joy.

Okay, you think to yourself, it is fine to be Jesus-centered...

...just then, something strikes you...

...WHAT HAPPENED TO THE FATHER?

You go back and reread Romans 8:31-39, and you realize it has little or nothing to do with what the pastor just preached. The passage is not about the Son, it is about the Father!

Romans 8:31-39 31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32 He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things? 33 Who shall bring any charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies. 34 Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died- more than that, who was raised- who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us. 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword? 36 As it is written, "For your sake we are being killed all the day long; we are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered." 37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38 For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Romans 8:31 is a clear summary statement, but a summary of what? Commentators tend to take the reference to be more than just 8:28-30, rather they take the reference to be to Romans 5-8 as a whole (Cranfield, Fitzmyer, Moo, Schreiner, cf. Dunn who limits it to 6-8). The point of this first verse is that in light of Paul's comments about the state of man and God's response to that state, nobody can stand in God's way.

Romans 8:32 is where it gets interesting. Note who the subject of the verse is, "he who," namely the Father. How do we know it is the Father? Look at the object: "did not spare his own Son," obviously the Son is the object, making the Father the subject. This is a clear allusion to Genesis 22:12, 16, where the words used are very close. Abraham did not spare his own son Isaac when God asked for him to be sacrificed. While this is a slightly controversial claim (in other words not all scholars agree), the parallels in the Greek are uncanny. This means that 8:32 is not about Jesus allowing Himself to be taken, rather it is about the Father handing over (the same exact word used for Judas' betrayal) the Son to be crucified. The idea is that if God can hand over His own Son for our sake, while He not do everything for us?

All you parents, think about how hard it would be to not just allow one of your children to be hurt, but to send them into a situation for the express purpose of having them killed. Could you do that? "Greater love has no man than this, that he lay down his life for his friends." I think God's love surpasses this in that greater love has never been seen, that God lay down His Son's life for His enemies.

Romans 8:33 focuses on God's relationship to His people. We are "His elect." No charge can be brought against us, nor can anyone condemn us since God the Father is the judge of all, only He can say who is actually righteous (i.e. justified).

Romans 8:34 seems to be about Jesus, focusing on His role in our salvation, but is it? We just saw that Jesus' death and resurrection came about according to the Father. Thus, Jesus' acts are all subsumed here under the will and doing of the Father. Note that Jesus intercedes for the elect, but to whom does He direct His pleas? Obviously, since 8:33 is understood in a forensic (i.e. court-trial) sense, the Father is the one to whom He pleads. Once again, this is Father-focused.

Romas 8:35 deals with the love of Christ. Now the question is what does that mean? Is it our love for Him? Nothing points that way. Is it His love for us? All commentators seem to take it that way. Here we have moved seemingly from God's love to Christ's love. Remember, though, that Christ's love is demonstrated at God's command. This love is not a mushy emotion, it is an ACTION. Also, it is clearly God's power which keeps anything from separating us from His love. Well, if this is so God-focused, then perhaps this is not referring to Christ's love for us, perhaps it means God's love for Christ? After all, that is what the first half of this paragraph is about, God's love for Christ and for us!

Romans 8:36 is a quotation of Psalm 44:22 (LXX, or more appropriately OG, 43:23). It shows Israel calling out to God, letting Him know that they are suffering for His sake. Here it can only refer to the suffering of Christians for their faith, but it is placed under the umbrella of suffering for God. Thus, suffering for the faith is not a punishment, it is a demonstration of the Father's love! This strengthens the idea that 8:35 is referring to God's love for Christ.

Romans 8:37 talks about the victory of the Christian through the one who loved us. What does 8:31 say? It says that if GOD is for us, nobody can stand against us. This means it is referring here to the Father's love once again, not the love of Christ for us. Thus it is the Father who empowers us, who keeps us, and who gives us victory (note that only the Father can declare us just, cf. 8:33).

Romans 8:38-39 clarifies things for us, letting us see that it is God's love demonstrated in the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus which saves us. Romans 8:31-39 is referring throughout to the love and role of the Father, using the Son just to point back to the Father.

Is it about Jesus? Yes.

Is it all about Jesus? No.

It is all about God, meaning Father, Son, and Spirit, Three in One.

Don't forget the Father. If there is no Father, there is no Son, for a Son needs a Father in order to be a Son.

What happened to the Father? We were blinded by the Son. It is time we began looking for His Father, and our Father, His God, and our God.

500

Notice - The featuring of a particular article does not constitute endorsement of every single item or point of view contained therein by each and every member of TheologyWeb leadership. We strive to have a varied cross-section of representations of differing opinions on secondary Christian issues. The only requirement for the featuring of a particular article is that said article must not contradict the essentials articulated in the TheologyWeb statement of faith found here in our Mission Statement (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/mission/)or be blatantly offensive to the Christian worldview of the site Owners.

I agree. & while it hardly solves the problem completely, one of the advantages of the traditional western liturgy shows up here: It has explicitly trinitarian language in a number of places. We begin "In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit." The Gloria in Excelsis is trinitarian & Eucharistic prayers generally have a trinitarian shape - as of course the ecumenical creeds do.

Of course that won't get into the consciousness of most people if there's no effective teaching about the Trinity - i.e., more than just rote memorization of "1 nature in 3 persons." One problem arises from the idea that the cross has to do only with the Son - that the Father is just sitting in heaven watching & the Spirit is waiting around till Easter. That's a caricature but not an unfair description of the way a lot of people think about it. Much recent theological work on the Trinity (e.g., Moltmann & Juengel) focuses on the cross-resurrection event & the fact that all 3 persons are involved, though not in the same way. The Father suffers the loss of the Son, & their unity is maintained in the Spirit.

Shalom,
George

[Brandalf85]

An excellent point!! We often forget the other two members of the Trinity. All are equally important! Although it WAS Jesus who died for us, it was the Father who sent The Son and The Spirit who comes to all believers after acceptence! =)

[hereoisreal]

When you open your hymnal Sunday morning,
do you sing, "This is my father's world" or
" This world is not my home, i'm just passing
through"?


Mar 8:22 And he cometh to Bethsaida; and they bring a blind man unto him, and besought him to touch him.

Mar 8:23 And he took the blind man by the hand, and led him out of the town; and when he had spit on his eyes, and put his hands upon him, he asked him if he saw ought.

Mar 8:24 And he looked up, and said, "I see men as trees, walking."

Mar 8:25 After that he put [his] hands again upon his eyes, and made him look up: and he was restored, and saw every man clearly.

Imo, Jesus knew what the man saw the first
time. He was looking at men through God's
eyes, perfect vision.

Have you ever seen a healthy tree that
didn't put down deep roots? Trees with roots
down don't walk, they grow.

Rev 22:1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.

IMO, the family of God, one family, is:

God, the Lamb, and the tree of life.
God, God's son, and a woman clothed with the sun and the moon beneath her feet.
Jesus, Christ, and the mother of all living.
They all have the family spirit.

Rev 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, [was there] the tree of life, which bare twelve [manner of] fruits, [and] yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree [were] for the healing of the nations.

She has deep roots too.

Blessings

Zero

[Steadfastlove]

We are to worship the Father first, although it is right to worship the Son also.

John 4
19The woman saith unto him, Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet.


20Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship.

21Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.

22Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.

23But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. 24God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.



6And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.


7And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.

8And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

9And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

10And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

11And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands; 12Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.