A Question About Hardening...

[seer]

If men are totally depraved, and dead to the things of God - why does God need to harden their hearts? That seems rather redundant, if not silly.:huh:

[Undomiel]

The context answers the question. In the case of the Pharaoh, the hardening of his heart was the blinding of his eyes to the truth EVEN WHEN IT WAS RIGHT BEFORE HIS EYES. He was using Pharaoh as an example to teach the children of Israel of God's hand in the situation.

[seer]

...In the case of the Pharaoh, the hardening of his heart was the blinding of his eyes to the truth EVEN WHEN IT WAS RIGHT BEFORE HIS EYES.

What truth? Pharaoh knew exactly what was going on...

[Undomiel]

It was like he knew and yet, each time he could've surrendered, he didn't because he wasn't convinced that his magicians couldn't beat Moses' unknown, faceless, invisible, God. His eyes were blinded each time to his inevitable fate so that he would try yet again.

[mickiel]

Today @ 01:05 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=113196#post113196)
seer:

If men are totally depraved, and dead to the things of God - why does God need to harden their hearts? That seems rather redundant, if not silly.:huh:

To KEEP them locked in that state, less they see the truth and be saved.

[seer]

To KEEP them locked in that state, less they see the truth and be saved.

So you believe that man,by nature,can believe and repent apart from a work of God?

[mickiel]

Today @ 04:03 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=113615#post113615)
seer:



So you believe that man,by nature,can believe and repent apart from a work of God?

I believe no such thing, and my above statement nowhere in reasonable interpitation sugget as such. Men are locked in disobedience, and cannot get out. Some men will attain a level of self absorbed illusion of obedience, but sen still reins in their flesh.

[seer]

...Some men will attain a level of self absorbed illusion of obedience, but sen still reins in their flesh.

Then why harden men? If we are already so bad by nature what need is there to harden?

[Theolog]

The hardening is judicial in nature.

The Pharaoh would not believe so God judged him and made it so Pharaoh could not believe.

If you cannot believe God even if you want to, you become willing and thus ripe for grace and mercy.

[themuzicman]

The hardeneing may not be to the things of God, but towards mercy or some other act in response to one's conscience, or knowledge of right and wrong.

In Pharoh's case, he could have decided at any point that the plagues weren't worth the problem, or recognized how poorly the Isrealites were being treated, and sent the Isrealites away, but God created circumstances around him that influenced him to harden his heart from these things.

I'm not saying that this is necessarily how it happened, but the 10 commandements with Charlton Heston provide an example of hardening, through his wife, who taunted him into failing to relent.

Michael

[mickiel]

Yesterday @ 08:32 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=113775#post113775)
Theolog:

The hardening is judicial in nature.

The Pharaoh would not believe so God judged him and made it so Pharaoh could not believe.


Although i disagree with the first statement of theolog, i most defitnitely agree with the latter. God ripens us for his mercy. In fact, this is one of the finest statements i have read this day. Very well put theolog, very well written. Ohhh- God ripens us for his mercy, the gospel truth.




If you cannot believe God even if you want to, you become willing and thus ripe for grace and mercy.

[mickiel]

Yesterday @ 05:00 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=113665#post113665)
seer:

...Some men will attain a level of self absorbed illusion of obedience, but sen still reins in their flesh.

Then why harden men? If we are already so bad by nature what need is there to harden?

To keep them unimformed Seer. I can imprision you in ignorance, but to imprison you in knowledge is a worse state of being. I can understand your inquiry, we must have more mental ability than meets the eye. Still, the focus must remain on God in areas we cannot understand. The answer is on Gods end, there must be something about God, that the hardening must be done. Not in us, but in him. Perhaps God cannot endure the humans pre-planned state of suffering, unless he blinds them, hinders them from him, or perhaps we will grope for him even in the dark, which men already do. All things considered after second thought, i think you have asked a good question. I really hate it when i cannot answer a question.

[Kenny]

I see God’s hardening of people’s hearts as merely a withdrawal of the previous extent God’s common grace to certain individuals. Though human beings are totally depraved, God’s common grace keeps that depravity from sinking to its fullest depths by providing a measure of gracious restraint upon the evil in human hearts. God hardens people, not by some active process, but merely by withdrawing His gracious activity in their hearts thereby allowing their own depravity to run its course unimpeded. So the hardening is not a work in addition to human depravity but merely takes advantage of the depravity which is already there.

In Christ,
Kenny

[mandolin]

I do believe seer is onto something here. Why would God need to harden if the whole world is utterly depraved.

Pharoah wouldn't need to be hardened unless he was capable of repentance in the first place. This clearly shows the individual freedom of each man. Pharoah was hardened after previously hardening his own heart. If pharoah was hardened because of God's fore-ordination, then the depravity of mankind is not as radical as the calvinist would be led to believe.

If mankind (pharoah) is utterly depraved...reliant on the grace of God to choose anything...then the hardening of one's heart is obsolete.

And Kenny...you are totally accurate. But realize...that's not a very calvinistic thing to say. But you are totally right.

I thank seer for bringing up such a valid point. It really is something to think about.

[Kenny]

And Kenny...you are totally accurate. But realize...that's not a very calvinistic thing to say. But you are totally right.

Actually, it is. This is precisely the way that I have heard many Calvinists (such as R.C. Sproul, for one example) explain this passage. Common grace is a standard Calvinist doctrine going back to Calvin himself. Calvinism does not teach, as some have either misunderstood or caricaturized it as teaching, that human beings are currently as bad as they could possibly be. Total depravity is to be understood in an extensive sense not an intensive sense. That is, the doctrine of total depravity teaches that sin impacts every dimension of human existence, – reason, affections, body, etc. – not that sin is present to the highest degree possible in every human heart. God’s common grace keeps human sin in check and prevents human depravity from reaching its full intensity.

God Bless,
Kenny

[geebob]

Pharoah's heart was not hardened specifically so that he would rebel from God. He was hardened so he would act in specific ways that are consistent with the rebellion already in his heart.

Why could we make this observation? Notice the following statement made by Moses, after the hardening of pharoah's heart wore off!

Ex. 9
29 Moses replied, "When I have gone out of the city, I will spread out my hands in prayer to the LORD . The thunder will stop and there will be no more hail, so you may know that the earth is the LORD's. 30 But I know that you and your officials still do not fear the LORD God."

[Kenny]

Today @ 02:58 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=116012#post116012)
geebob:

Pharoah's heart was not hardened specifically so that he would rebel from God. He was hardened so he would act in specific ways that are consistent with the rebellion already in his heart.

Why could we make this observation? Notice the following statement made by Moses, after the hardening of pharoah's heart wore off!

Ex. 9
29 Moses replied, "When I have gone out of the city, I will spread out my hands in prayer to the LORD . The thunder will stop and there will be no more hail, so you may know that the earth is the LORD's. 30 But I know that you and your officials still do not fear the LORD God."

That works from a Calvinist perspective too.

[mandolin]

Kenny...
So you are saying that God offers "some" grace to "all"...but not saving grace. All people are given a type of grace to make them a little less depraved than nature would have them be?? Is that what you are saying?

Personally I see your statement as a denouncement of Total depravity and of Limited atonement. You said God offers his grace to all

The calvinist teaching is that mankind is utterly incapable of doing anything without the irresistable grace of god randomly choosing them unto election. Why would God need to harden a persons heart if the person is already depraved past the point of reconciliation?

The whole calvinistic perspective is that without the irresistable grace of god, a person is destined to be nothing more than reprobate. The hardening of a person's heart is very unneccesary and redundant if this irresistable grace thing is true. Why would God need to harden a mans heart if that man is born with a hardened heart?

If a human can't make a choice without God making it for them, then why would God need to "block" that person from making a righteous choice?

IMHO
In the particular example of Pharoah, God hardened the pharoahs heart only after pharoah hardened his own heart roughly 10 times. This is why Romans 9 is asking if it is unjust of God to do this. It is not unjust of God. Pharoah hardened his own heart. God merely made this "hardening" irrevocable. God is not unjust in this action, because God is just giving Pharoah what he wants. Pharoah hardens his own heart 10 times...God says, "as you wish", and destines him to failure.

This would be much like (in fact exactly the same as) the unpardonable sin talked about elsewhere.

God doesn't randomly harden people's hearts. He randomly hardens "hardened" peoples hearts. Of the millions of people that harden THEIR OWN hearts, God randomly chooses of them..and hardens their hearts in order to make his glory and power known. This is clearly seen in the example of Pharoah. Because Pharoah chose to be a hardened soul, God irrevocable hardened his heart in order to show the whole world that Jehovah God isn't a push-over. If Pharoah would have chose to comply with the grace of God, then the whole passover would have been a different story entirely.

(granted...God did foretell this hardening before Pharoah ever hardened himself...but this does not mean God forced the initital hardening. This just means God has a very extreme foreknowledge of future occurnces. Omniscient or not...God clearly knew that this Pharoah story would occur)

[Kenny]

Today @ 12:46 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=116702#post116702)
mandolin:

[quote]Kenny...
So you are saying that God offers "some" grace to "all"...but not saving grace.

Yes. That’s the doctrine of common grace. It’s a staple of Reformed theology and it goes back to Calvin himself.


All people are given a type of grace to make them a little less depraved than nature would have them be?? Is that what you are saying?

Common grace includes the restraint of human depravity, but it extends far beyond that. It also includes a fundamental attitude of beneficence on the part of God to all His creatures, God’s gracious sustaining of life, the liberal provision of good things (He makes His rain fall on the just as well as the wicked) and God’s withholding of judgment upon the wicked for a season.


Personally I see your statement as a denouncement of Total depravity and of Limited atonement. You said God offers his grace to all.

No. Remember that total depravity is understood in Calvinistic theology to be extensive and not intensive. Total depravity means that there is no aspect of our being which is not affected by the ravages of sin, not that we are as sinful as we could possibly be. God’s common grace prevents total depravity, in this life at least, from becoming intensive as well as extensive.

As far as the doctrine of limited atonement it concerned, it is important to understand two things. First of all, Calvinists do not understand limited atonement in terms of a lack of sufficiency of Christ’s death to save all but in terms of a limited scope of intention. Christ’s death was sufficient to save all, but it was only intended to save some – namely, those who would place their faith in Christ. In fact, logically, the Arminian must concede this as well. The difference between the Arminian and Calvinist position on this point really just centers around the fact that the Calvinist believes that the saving grace provided for in the atonement secures not only the offer of salvation to all but it secures the response of faith on the part of the elect as well.

Second, the doctrine of limited atonement does not entail that the non-elect receive no benefits whatsoever from the atonement. The grace provided for the elect in the atonement spills over a certain extent to the rest of the world. God is patient with the rest of the world as He waits for the rest of the elect to be drawn in. He restrains human wickedness and holds back His judgment to that end. The presence of His Gospel in the world and His people, as a consequence of the atonement, restrains societal wickedness and leads to good things for all. In other words, the saving grace secured for the elect in the atonement leads to a common grace given to all.


The calvinist teaching is that mankind is utterly incapable of doing anything without the irresistable grace of god randomly choosing them unto election.

No, that is not what Calvinism teaches at all. That is merely a caricature. I find that Calvinists and Arminians both often attack caricatures of one another’s theology rather than dealing with the real issues, and that is a sad commentary on both communities. Irresistable grace, in Calvinistic theology, pertains primarily to salvation. Calvinists do believe that human beings are incapable of responding to the Gospel in faith without God’s efficacious call to salvation and that this call is irresistible. In a sense, this also entails that no one can do any work which is truly pleasing to God apart from God’s irresistible grace because without faith it is impossible to please God and anything not done from faith is sin. So, in that sense, even the best deeds of those who lack saving faith are sinful in God’s sight because they do not proceed out of a motive of faith and love for God. But, Calvinists do not believe that no good thing can come of the non-elect or that without God’s saving grace people are simply as wicked as they could possibly be. That is a severe distortion of Calvinistic theology.


Why would God need to harden a persons heart if the person is already depraved past the point of reconciliation?

God, in justice, is free to withdraw His common grace from the depraved and thereby hand them over to their own depravity. This is what Romans 1 is talking about when it says, “God gave them up to a depraved mind to do the things which ought not to be done.” The depravity was already there, but God sealed them in it.


The whole calvinistic perspective is that without the irresistable grace of god, a person is destined to be nothing more than reprobate. The hardening of a person's heart is very unneccesary and redundant if this irresistable grace thing is true. Why would God need to harden a mans heart if that man is born with a hardened heart?

No one is born as bad as they could possibly be, though all are born sinners. God hardens people's hearts by allowing them to sink further in their own depravity. Total depravity is what makes this hardening possible in the first place. God doesn’t have to create any new evil in the human heart; the human heart already furnishes all the raw materials.


If a human can't make a choice without God making it for them, then why would God need to "block" that person from making a righteous choice?

I don’t believe that any choice made by those who lack saving faith is genuinely righteous because no such choice proceeds from proper motives. However, some choices are less righteous (or, perhaps, more wicked) than others. Pharaoh, due to God’s common grace, might have at least had enough sense to realize that it was in his own best interest and the interest of His kingdom to let the Hebrews go. He might have at least come to the rational conclusion that the God of the Hebrews was more powerful than he and that resistance was futile. If he had done these things, his choice would not have been righteous, per se, because it ultimately would have proceeded from selfish motivations, but, it would have been less sinful than the extent of irrational pride and self-centeredness that he demonstrated by not letting the Hebrew people go. Pharaoh did not act in less wicked ways because God withdrew the common grace which might have allowed him to make less wicked choices. God withdrew a measure of His gracious restraint on Pharaoh’s stubbornness and pride so that Pharaoh would make the more irrational choice.


In the particular example of Pharoah, God hardened the pharoahs heart only after pharoah hardened his own heart roughly 10 times. This is why Romans 9 is asking if it is unjust of God to do this. It is not unjust of God. Pharoah hardened his own heart.

Basically, I agree. The materials for the hardening were supplied by Pharaoh himself. God merely sealed Pharaoh in his own depravity.


God doesn't randomly harden people's hearts. He randomly hardens "hardened" peoples hearts.

God doesn’t “randomly” do anything, but rather does everything for the purpose of manifesting His love to the end of His glory. And, every person’s heart is hardened to an extent.


If Pharoah would have chose to comply with the grace of God, then the whole passover would have been a different story entirely.

Ultimately, though, this is something which Pharaoh could not have done, not because of some determination outside of himself, but because of the sinful condition of his own heart. Pharaoh could not have done this because he would not have it any other way. But if God had chosen to give Pharaoh more grace or not withdrawn the measure of grace that Pharaoh had previously received, then the Passover might indeed have been a different story. Ultimately, I believe that God could have caused Pharaoh to repent if God had so desired. But God did not choose to do this. Instead He justly chose to allow Pharaoh to do what Pharaoh wanted to do without interference so that God’s glory could be revealed. Indeed, it is often a very fearful thing when God gives us what we want.

In Christ,
Kenny

[FirstSunday33ad]

Pharaoh’s heart was hardened so that he would not release the Jews and then be able to claim that it was his mercy or his greatness that led him to do so. Pharaoh was contemptuous of God.

Exodus 5
2 Pharaoh said, "Who is the LORD , that I should obey him and let Israel go? I do not know the LORD and I will not let Israel go."

God hardened his heart so that he would act on what he truly desired and not compromise to keep the peace or satisfy the people. Pharaoh declared war on God and God made sure he would stick around to finish the fight.