Homosexuality, the brain, and a sense of smell

[The Creep]

Yesterday I read on google that researchers in Sweden had discovered more evidence that homosexuality is hard-wired in the brain. They isolated a chemical from male sweat that sexualy stimulated straight females and homosexual males. They contrasted this to straight males who were sexually excited by a chemical isolated from male urine.
This will only alter the debate.
Those who think homosexuality is wrong will begin to argue in the next decade or so that homosexuality is a genetic defect.
Those who believe homosexuality is morally acceptable will argue that this proves homosexuality is not a choice.
I wish to shift the debate from the choice - non-choice issue to the fundamental question: is homosexuality harmful or not? Whether or not it is chosen, or learned, or programmed in our genes does not matter. It could be any or even all of those things. And anybody could still make an argument from either side. The debate at that point because rationally interminable and therefore useless.
Does homosexuality hurt people or not?

[Tickle Me Goody]

Yesterday I read on google that researchers in Sweden had discovered more evidence that homosexuality is hard-wired in the brain. They isolated a chemical from male sweat that sexualy stimulated straight females and homosexual males. They contrasted this to straight males who were sexually excited by a chemical isolated from male urine.
This will only alter the debate.
Those who think homosexuality is wrong will begin to argue in the next decade or so that homosexuality is a genetic defect.
Those who believe homosexuality is morally acceptable will argue that this proves homosexuality is not a choice.
I wish to shift the debate from the choice - non-choice issue to the fundamental question: is homosexuality harmful or not? Whether or not it is chosen, or learned, or programmed in our genes does not matter. It could be any or even all of those things. And anybody could still make an argument from either side. The debate at that point because rationally interminable and therefore useless.
Does homosexuality hurt people or not?

According to the data on http://www.avert.org/usastatg.htm it would seem as though that it is very likely to have done people harm.

[Xavier]

It would help your cause if the study actually said that... Rather, it was the interpretation of another scientist not affiliated with the study. At least, that's what the Yahoo! News article made rather clear...

[...] "It is one more piece of evidence ... that is showing that sexual orientation is not all learned," said Sandra Witelson, an expert on brain anatomy and sexual orientation at the Michael G. DeGroote School of Medicine at McMaster University in Ontario, Canada.

Witelson, who was not part of the research team, said the findings clearly show a biological involvement in sexual orientation. [...]

SOURCE: http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20050510/ap_on_he_me/homosexual_brains_11

Further, Studies I've heard of on Human Pheromones were largely inconclusive to show that humans even have an actual behavioural response to such a stimulus.

[francke]

If one is to actually look at the claim (ie. homosexuality is hardwired) in the context of what the study actually was, you see the claim is baseless.

Here is a critique of the study and it's claim of biological "proof"

Story from Conservative News.US (http://www.conservativenews.us/articles05/5105_gay_react_to_scent_like_women.htm)

[The Creep]

I am not interested in debating the fine points or merits of the study carried out in Sweden. It is only more data that is added to the growing body of data regarding male homosexuality. I would accuse most of you of wilfull obscurantism but such styles of debating lead to arguments that are rationally interminable. I merely predict that within a decade or so many of the people who share your beliefs about the sinfulness of homosexual sex will come to declare that it is a genetic defect.

I prefer to return to what is central - is homosexuality per se and as a whole necessarily harmful.

The site that presents the statistics that goodygoody mentioned can be interpreted in many ways. There are some curious omissions in the statistics presented - such as lesbian statistics and hetersexual sexual contact and drug use statistics.

An either case the study does not prove that all male homosexual behaviour is harmful. It merely gives evidence that certain male homosexuals engage in activities that are risky. Obviously not all male homosexuals engage in risky behaviours otherwise they would all be dead.

I have a certain amount of experience of gay males and not one of them fits the statistics presented. They are happy, healthy, spiritual men.

[Barry Desborough]

According to the data on http://www.avert.org/usastatg.htm it would seem as though that it [homosexuality] is very likely to have done people harm.

It is HIV that does the harm, and unprotected promiscuous sex obviously heightens the risk. In Africa it is unprotected promiscuous hetero sex that is the high risk factor.

[The Creep]

Many people still believe that AIDS is a homosexual disease. I wonder why.

[anthrogirl]

Further, Studies I've heard of on Human Pheromones were largely inconclusive to show that humans even have an actual behavioural response to such a stimulus.

Hmmm. This is in direct contradiction to studies I have read and also my own experience. When I was working in the pheromone business, we stocked blends that were quite effective for attracting other humans. We had a category for "women attracting men"; "men attracting women"; women attracting women"; "men attracting men", and "gender-neutral attraction". It was interesting to see each person's reaction when they were presented with a whiff of pheromone--their pupils would dialate, body temp. would increase, skin would become a bit flushed, and usually--they reported feeling relaxed and a bit euphoric. Of course, these weren't human pheromones--they were extracted mostly from plant sources.

Human pheromones are a critical component to sexual attraction. The olfactory system (that's the one responsible for the sense of smell) is the only sensory system with axons that project directly to the limbic system (that's the one responsible for memory and emotion).

I would be interested to check out the sources to which you are referring--as far as I know, the scientific/medical community is well aware that pheromones have an impact on human behavior.

best,
ag

[spiritmech]

I heard of a study where a woman not on birth control chose the man furthest away from her in the gene pool, just based on sense of smell. The women on birth control chose the smell of the man closest to her.

So I'm really not surprised, when I heard this story. Not that birth control has anything to do with homosexuality, but smell is important and is connected to many different things.
sm

[Xavier]

HI would be interested to check out the sources to which you are referring--as far as I know, the scientific/medical community is well aware that pheromones have an impact on human behavior.

best,
ag

As I recall, the research even said as much in one of the original articles, but I couldn't find it on a cursory search...

But:
While it is unclear if humans respond to pheromones, candidate compounds include a testosterone derivative called 4,16-androstadien-3-one (AND), and the estrogen-like steroid estra-1,3-5(10),16-tetraen-3-ol (EST).

SOURCE: http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/medicalnews.php?newsid=24094

There's also a good look at both sides of the issue from the APA:
http://www.apa.org/monitor/oct02/pheromones.html

Most of the pro-literature I have on hand refers namely to the study done by McClintock of the ovation periods of female cohabitators. The cite for that study is: Stern, K. and McClintock, M. Regulation of ovulation by human pheromones. Nature vol. 39 177-179 (1998).

My own opinion is drawn largely from my intro Biology and Sociology courses.

Yours,
Xavier

[The Creep]

Humans absolutely DO respond to hormones. If there is any doubt about this in the scientific world than those scientists who doubt have yet to catch up to common experience.

But I would like to focus back on my original question:

Is homosexuality harmful or not - AS HOMOSEXUALITY?

[jason]

Yesterday I read on google that researchers in Sweden had discovered more evidence that homosexuality is hard-wired in the brain.
Then you read wrong or where misinformed.

They isolated a chemical from male sweat that sexualy stimulated straight females and homosexual males. They contrasted this to straight males who were sexually excited by a chemical isolated from male urine.
This doesn't demonstrate that "homosexuality is hardwired in the brain".

All this shows is some correlation not causation.

Based on the evidence you have cited it would be just as correct to conclude that homosexual behavior causes changes in the human body and brain. I really get sick of people misrepresenting findings like this.

Does homosexuality hurt people or not?
Yes it does.

Jason

[The Creep]

Jason, certainly your idea that the brain is changed by behaviour is true and it applies to heterosexuals also. I don't see how I've misrepresented or misread the finding. My opinion is just as honorable as yours. I really didn't want to get caught up in such discussions - at least not on this thread.

You answer : yes it does, to the question of whether homosexuality is basically harmful.

Evidence, please.

[jason]

Jason, certainly your idea that the brain is changed by behaviour is true and it applies to heterosexuals also. I don't see how I've misrepresented or misread the finding. My opinion is just as honorable as yours. I really didn't want to get caught up in such discussions - at least not on this thread.
It is actually quite important however. Anybody claiming that this study demonstrates that a homosexuals brain is hardwired and that this is a casue of homosexual attraction is basically either unable to understand the study or deliberately misrepresenting it.

You answer : yes it does, to the question of whether homosexuality is basically harmful.
Male homosexual practice with its attendent promiscuity is deadly, look up some CDC figures.

Are you trying to suggest some ridiculous like "homosexual orientation" is dangerous ? If so all I can say is :ahem:

Jason

[The Creep]

jason - Let's just get something clear. I do not say that the study DEMONSTRATES that homosexuality is hard wired in the brain. I said that it is EVIDENCE that homosexuality is hard wired in the brain. It's also evidence for the conclusion YOU draw. That is - it is evidence and evidence can be interpreted in a million ways. Evidence is not proof. Evidence of a smoking gun doesn't even mean a murder has been committed.

Male homosexual pracitice has NOT been shown to be deadly. What the evidence says (open to interpretation) is that SOME homosexual practices are deadly. What I want to point out is that there are many, many, homosexual males and females who live happy, healthy, spiritually fit lives. You cannot generalize about a whole species based on the statistics related to some of the species.

[The Creep]

jason

One last thing. Much of heterosexual practice is deadly also. Heterosexuals experience all the same physical and psychological traumas that homosexuals and bisexuals do.

[thrasymachus]

Hi all. I'm new here, but as I was perusing this forum I was also reading Amy Welborn's blog. In a comment box, someone provides a lengthy and detailed answer to The Creep's question. The topic of discussion is the Pope's recent comments about marriage. I'm in general agreement with this position, but I'm open to revising my opinion. Here's the whole thing (minus a few initial comments relevant to other commenters):

More to the point, the sociological and medical data (shorn of biases) supports the Magisterial nuptial order for creation and the human person and completely falsifies any anarchical view of freedom. For example (I was an engineer so get ready for a bit of data):

Homosexual relationships, because they are disordered, cannot be stable. A study based on the health records of young Dutch homosexuals by Dr. Maria Xiridou of the Amsterdam Municipal Health Service and published in the May 2003 issue of the journal AIDS found that men in homosexual “monogamous” relationships have an average of eight partners a year outside their main partnership, and that the main partnerships last only an average of a year and a half. Even in the age of throwaway marriages, according to the US National Center for Health Statistics (NCHS), 67 percent of first marriages last 10 years and 50 percent last 20 years.

The disorder of homosexuality is also indicated by the fact that ephebophilia (the attraction to post pubescent children which is different than pedophilia) is significantly higher in gays (as high as 620 times higher –see first study below) than in the normal population (less than 2%). In fact, homosexual activists Karla Jay and Allen Young revealed in their 1979 Gay Report that 73% of all homosexuals have acted as "chicken hawks" (i.e., they have preyed on adolescent or younger boys). The following studies all support this (Ray Blanchard, et al. "Fratemal Birth Order and Sexual Orientation in Pedophiles." Archives of Sexual Behavior, Volume 29, Number 5 (2000), pages 463 to 478. A. Zebulon, Z.A. Silverthorne and Vernon L. Quinsey. "Sexual Partner Age Preferences of Homosexual and Heterosexual Men and Women." Archives of Sexual Behavior, February 2000 [Volume 29, Number IJ, pages 67 to 76. 'Ray Blanchard, et. aI. "Pedophiles: Mental Retardation, Maternal Age, and Sexual Orientation." Archives of Sexual Behavior, Volume 28, Number 2,pages 111 to 127. Kurt Freund, Robin Watson and Douglas Rienzoo "Heterosexuality, Homosexuality, and Erotic Age Preference." Journal of Sex Research, February 1989 [Volume 26,Number 1), pages l(J7to 117. W.D. Erickson, et al. "Behavior Patterns of Child Molesters." 17 Archives of Sexual Behavior 77,83 (1988). IOJ{. Freund, G. Heasman, I.G. Racansky, and G. Glancy. "Pedophilia and Heterosexuality vs. Homosexuality." Journal of Sex andMarital Therapy, Fall 1984 [Volume 10, Number 3], pages 193 to 200. "Homosexual activists Karla Jay and Allen Young. The Gay Report: Lesbians and Gay Men Speak OutAbout Sexual Experiences and lifestyles [Simon and Schuster, 1979], page 275. K. Freund & R.I. Watson. "The Proportions of Heterosexual and Homosexual Pedophiles Among Sex Offenders Against Children: An Exploratory Study." 18 34, Journal of Sex and Marital Therapy 34-43 (1992)).

The evidence indicates that it is a dangerously false compassion to be more concerned about feelings than about wellbeing (although I generally agree with Susan that one must be prudent about how one tries to bear witness to the truth). For example, the Centers for Disease Control (CDC), has shown that the life expectancy for homosexuals is about twenty years shorter than that of the general public. The study, entitled “Gay obituaries closely track officially reported deaths from AIDS”, has been published in Psychological Reports (2005;96:693-697). Another study in Vancouver British Columbia and published in 1997 in the International Journal of Epidemiology (Vol. 26, 657-61: http://ije.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract...) reveals almost the exact same findings.

However, the dangers are not solely associated with AIDS. Two studies appearing in the October 2000 issue of the American Medical Association's Archives of General Psychiatry show a strong link between homosexual sex and suicide, as well as a relationship between homosexuality and emotional and mental problems. One of the studies in the same journal (by David M. Ferguson et. al.) discovered that “gay, lesbian and bisexual young people are at increased risk of psychiatric disorder and suicidal behaviors.”

A summary of other health problems associated with homosexual behavior can be found in the Catholic Medical Association’s (http://www.cathmed.org/) paper, “Homosexuality and Hope.” This include: homosexuals are four times as likely as their peers to suffer from major depression, almost three times as likely to suffer from generalized anxiety disorder, nearly four times as likely to experience conduct disorder, five times as likely to have nicotine dependence, six times as likely to suffer from multiple disorders, and over six times as likely to have attempted suicide (and it points out that an “extensive study in the Netherlands (published in the Archives of General Psychiatry) undermines the assumption that homophobia is the cause of increased psychiatric illness among gays and lesbians. The Dutch have been considerably more accepting of same-sex relationships than other Western countries -- in fact, same-sex couples now have the legal right to marry in the Netherlands”).

Homosexuality and Hope also showed that “compared to controls who had no homosexual experience in the 12 months prior to the interview, males who had any homosexual contact within that time period were much more likely to experience major depression, bipolar disorder, panic disorder, agoraphobia and obsessive compulsive disorder. Females with any homosexual contact within the previous 12 months were more often diagnosed with major depression, social phobia or alcohol dependence. In fact, those with a history of homosexual contact had higher prevalence of nearly all psychiatric disorders measured in the study. Also, a recent study in the American Journal of Public Health has shown that 39% of males with same-sex attraction have been abused by other males with same-sex attraction.”

The document also shows physical illnesses associated with homosexual sex: “the diseases found with extraordinary frequency among male homosexual practitioners as a result of abnormal homosexual behavior is alarming: anal cancer, chlamydia trachomatis, cryptosporidium, giardia lamblia, herpes simplex virus, human immunodeficiency virus or HIV, human papilloma virus -- HPV or genital warts -- isospora belli, microsporidia, gonorrhea, viral hepatitis types B and C, and syphilis. Sexual transmission of some of these diseases is so rare in the exclusively heterosexual population as to be virtually unknown. Others, while found among heterosexual and homosexual practitioners, are clearly predominated by those involved in homosexual activity. Men who have sex with men account for the lion's share of the increasing number of cases in America of sexually transmitted infections that are not generally spread through sexual contact. These diseases, with consequences that range from severe and even life-threatening to mere annoyances, include hepatitis A, giardia lamblia, entamoeba histolytica, Epstein-Barr virus, neisseria meningitides, shigellosis, salmonellosis, pediculosis, scabies and campylobacter.

The science supports not only the Magisterium but also the obvious. Psychological inclination cannot overcome reality. We cannot by fiat change who we are. To do so will no only damage ourselves but society as well.