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rogue06
02-01-2015, 12:25 PM
Legolas, eat your heart out


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BEG-ly9tQGk

Teallaura
02-01-2015, 01:33 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zo8UZneuggE

Sparko
02-01-2015, 01:38 PM
Lars would have killed Howard about 20 times over before Howard got off even one shot.

Teallaura
02-01-2015, 01:41 PM
Lars would have killed Howard about 20 times over before Howard got off even one shot.
Probably not - it's not the best video of him and he's middle aged by the time it was made.

Hill was one of the all time greats. Lars may well be one, too.

rogue06
02-01-2015, 02:09 PM
:popcorn:

pancreasman
02-01-2015, 02:20 PM
I have read critiques of the Lars video that suggest some these 'stunts' were recorded many times and that while he is certainly fast his real life accuracy is not very good. Also there has been some commentary that there are historical errors in the commentary. I'll dig them up if you like.

rogue06
02-01-2015, 03:42 PM
I have read critiques of the Lars video that suggest some these 'stunts' were recorded many times and that while he is certainly fast his real life accuracy is not very good. Also there has been some commentary that there are historical errors in the commentary. I'll dig them up if you like.
Sure. The criticism I've seen so far has amounted to little more than "No way. I don't believe it."

And I certainly wouldn't be surprised that the videos only show the successes. He seems to be wanting to show that it can be done and emphasized that he hasn't the lifetime of training or the physical conditioning that the top archers in previous times went through.

Sparko
02-01-2015, 03:45 PM
Even if he made only 50% of his shots, he seems to be able to get off about 10 times as many shots as a standard archer in the same amount of time.

Cerebrum123
02-01-2015, 04:01 PM
Even if he made only 50% of his shots, he seems to be able to get off about 10 times as many shots as a standard archer in the same amount of time.

Like comparing a sniper with a fully automatic weapon IMO. Also, I don't even expect them to be showing failures on this kind of thing. Kind of like that basketball dropped from an airplane. It probably took them forever to actually pull it off. :yes:

mossrose
02-01-2015, 06:54 PM
Did you know that when an archer missed his mark in the olden days, somebody would always holler, "Sinner!"?

Because that's what it means........


To sin means to miss the mark or fall short of the required standard. This term comes from a competitive game of olden times where archers would, in turn, aim at a distant target. If they hit the target, they were allowed to continue to the next round of the competition. But if they missed the mark (the prescribed target), they were called sinners, and were immediately eliminated from the competition.

http://www.oocities.org/heartland/acres/Acres/6331/AW87.htm

Littlejoe
02-01-2015, 08:11 PM
I've been shooting a bow since I was 12. One thing I can tell you about Lars bow is that it's a relatively light pull weight bow. That lets you shoot it fast and accurately. But it doesn't penetrate as well. Also the shot where he turns and shoots the other arrow out of the air, that's only possible because of the relatively slow speed of said arrow. My guess is that arrow is traveling around 120 to 140 ft/sec. Sounds fast but my modern compound that I hunt with, shoots over 300 ft/sec. I would like to see him shoot that one out of the air...:hehe:

Cerebrum123
02-02-2015, 06:20 AM
I've been shooting a bow since I was 12. One thing I can tell you about Lars bow is that it's a relatively light pull weight bow. That lets you shoot it fast and accurately. But it doesn't penetrate as well. Also the shot where he turns and shoots the other arrow out of the air, that's only possible because of the relatively slow speed of said arrow. My guess is that arrow is traveling around 120 to 140 ft/sec. Sounds fast but my modern compound that I hunt with, shoots over 300 ft/sec. I would like to see him shoot that one out of the air...:hehe:

Maybe some more practice and he will get it done. :wink:

Carrikature
02-02-2015, 08:26 AM
I've been shooting a bow since I was 12. One thing I can tell you about Lars bow is that it's a relatively light pull weight bow. That lets you shoot it fast and accurately. But it doesn't penetrate as well. Also the shot where he turns and shoots the other arrow out of the air, that's only possible because of the relatively slow speed of said arrow. My guess is that arrow is traveling around 120 to 140 ft/sec. Sounds fast but my modern compound that I hunt with, shoots over 300 ft/sec. I would like to see him shoot that one out of the air...:hehe:

I'm not sure a modern compound is really a fair comparison, especially when he's attempting some sort of historical accuracy.

KingsGambit
02-02-2015, 08:54 AM
Hey Cath: Turns out there's an archery range just a few miles up the road from us operated by the county. Maybe they have classes or programs?

Teallaura
02-02-2015, 01:18 PM
I've been shooting a bow since I was 12. One thing I can tell you about Lars bow is that it's a relatively light pull weight bow. That lets you shoot it fast and accurately. But it doesn't penetrate as well. Also the shot where he turns and shoots the other arrow out of the air, that's only possible because of the relatively slow speed of said arrow. My guess is that arrow is traveling around 120 to 140 ft/sec. Sounds fast but my modern compound that I hunt with, shoots over 300 ft/sec. I would like to see him shoot that one out of the air...:hehe:
Conversely, I couldn't shoot one out of the air like that even if it had just come off of a 5lb bow - it's still a pretty neat trick.


I prefer recurves and longbows. Longbows are fun!


FYI: I'd guess his bow at 25 - 30 lb. Certainly not higher.

Teallaura
02-02-2015, 01:20 PM
Hey Cath: Turns out there's an archery range just a few miles up the road from us operated by the county. Maybe they have classes or programs?
Learn on a recurve. You can easily translate to a compound but I find it difficult to do the reverse.

Compounds are for hunting and for sissies... :grin:

rogue06
02-02-2015, 06:04 PM
I've been shooting a bow since I was 12. One thing I can tell you about Lars bow is that it's a relatively light pull weight bow. That lets you shoot it fast and accurately. But it doesn't penetrate as well. Also the shot where he turns and shoots the other arrow out of the air, that's only possible because of the relatively slow speed of said arrow. My guess is that arrow is traveling around 120 to 140 ft/sec. Sounds fast but my modern compound that I hunt with, shoots over 300 ft/sec. I would like to see him shoot that one out of the air...:hehe:
Apparently well enough to repeatedly penetrate chainmail as shown in the video. As for plate, I saw something on TV awhile back that showed that even long bows could only penetrate it at extremely close range and current theory is that knights in full plate were essentially beaten to death by wave after wave of arrows hammering them.

Teallaura
02-02-2015, 07:52 PM
Apparently well enough to repeatedly penetrate chainmail as shown in the video. As for plate, I saw something on TV awhile back that showed that even long bows could only penetrate it at extremely close range and current theory is that knights in full plate were essentially beaten to death by wave after wave of arrows hammering them.
Um, if the chain in the video is SCA type, this means very little. The really good stuff - and what people would have actually worn when possible - is riveted. Getting through unriveted, aluminum wire isn't much of an accomplishment. I can do it with a 50lb bow and a rabbit blunt.

Longbows should do better at long range - they aren't usually high lb pulls (I suppose they can be). Penetrating plate depends on several factors - and using modern steel negates several. Still, it wasn't supposed to be easy - that was the point of wearing a tin can in the first place.

Littlejoe
02-02-2015, 09:15 PM
I'm not sure a modern compound is really a fair comparison, especially when he's attempting some sort of historical accuracy.

True! He is very accurate. He seems to get less accurate (to be expected) the more he rushes.

Littlejoe
02-02-2015, 09:24 PM
Conversely, I couldn't shoot one out of the air like that even if it had just come off of a 5lb bow - it's still a pretty neat trick.Yes it is. However, in looking at it again, he does a couple of things that make it even easier than I first thought. The shooter is using a light weight bow, doesn't draw it all the way, and is using flu-flu arrows. Flu-flu arrows (for those who don't know) are arrows with large feathers. they are used to hunt birds! So, they slow down very quickly so that they don't get lost easily in case of a missed bird.



I prefer recurves and longbows. Longbows are fun!Grew up shooting a recurve but as I got older, my shoulder started bothering me more...also, switched to a compound to be able to hold it longer for hunting. Deer have this nasty habit of looking right at you when you move to draw...:sigh: If they are looking at you when you shoot, their reflexes are so fast they can duck and dodge arrows. I had a deer whirl out of the way of an arrow shot from my 55 lb draw recurve at 15 yards. That bow would shoot an arrow at about 190 ft/sec. One broadhead blade scratched his shoulder. He lived and was shot during gun season by my buddy. I decided then to go to the higher speed bows...:hehe:



FYI: I'd guess his bow at 25 - 30 lb. Certainly not higher.I agree, those do not shoot very fast.

Littlejoe
02-02-2015, 09:32 PM
Apparently well enough to repeatedly penetrate chainmail as shown in the video. As for plate, I saw something on TV awhile back that showed that even long bows could only penetrate it at extremely close range and current theory is that knights in full plate were essentially beaten to death by wave after wave of arrows hammering them.

Penetration power is a simple function of speed + weight - arrow drag (shaft size and it's smoothness) Penetration will not, cannot increase down range, simple physics just prohibit it increasing penetration as the arrow slows down...:shrug: It might be plausible that it could increase in speed if shot in the exact correct arc so that it starts back down hill at the peak of it's speed, then gathers speed due to gravity...but you will have to convince me of that. Like I said, I've been shooting for 40+ years, and I can tell you that penetration on a 70 yd target is always less than the 10 yd targets. The chain mail he's shooting (as Teal pointed out) can't be "regulation" mail. Aluminum replica most likely. The foam target he shoots from close range? My 55 ' recurve would have shot clean through 2 of those :nsm:

rogue06
02-03-2015, 04:42 AM
Penetration power is a simple function of speed + weight - arrow drag (shaft size and it's smoothness) Penetration will not, cannot increase down range, simple physics just prohibit it increasing penetration as the arrow slows down...:shrug: It might be plausible that it could increase in speed if shot in the exact correct arc so that it starts back down hill at the peak of it's speed, then gathers speed due to gravity...but you will have to convince me of that. Like I said, I've been shooting for 40+ years, and I can tell you that penetration on a 70 yd target is always less than the 10 yd targets. The chain mail he's shooting (as Teal pointed out) can't be "regulation" mail. Aluminum replica most likely. The foam target he shoots from close range? My 55 ' recurve would have shot clean through 2 of those :nsm:
I'm trying to figure out how you thought I said an arrow would somehow gain speed the further it traveled

And historically speaking chain mail has always had difficulty with arrows even from short bows at medium distance so I doubt that he had to "cheat" by using aluminum.

Littlejoe
02-03-2015, 06:31 AM
I'm trying to figure out how you thought I said an arrow would somehow gain speed the further it traveled:doh: I don't know why but I kept reading extremely long range not close range...must have been too tired to be posting...:hehe: Sorry about that! My mistake!


And historically speaking chain mail has always had difficulty with arrows even from short bows at medium distance so I doubt that he had to "cheat" by using aluminum.

He's using a very underpowered bow. And if you watch, when he is firing fast, he isn't drawing it back as far. Draw length is directly related to arrow speed and hence the kinetic energy imparted into the arrow. So, it just seems improbable that it would penetrate normal chain mail, but I guess not impossible...

Teallaura
02-03-2015, 11:19 AM
An underpowered bow (25 - 30 lb my estimate) is not gonna penetrate riveted steel mail unless it gets lucky and hits a bad link. Mail is really for swords, not arrows and yeah, a sky full of the things is gonna kill a group of guys in chain only - unless the archers are only using really broad tips which is the opposite of what they actually did.

But a modern broadhead or even a practice tip won't penetrate steel riveted mail (unless it's really wide). A blunt will go through the unriveted aluminum stuff even if it's really small. The riveted stuff can't be torn but the unriveted can be.

I don't think he cheated - he just used what was readily available. The stunt can be done for real with a powerful enough bow and the right tips so it's not like he was faking - it's just not as impressive as doing it for real would be. :shrug:

rogue06
02-19-2015, 02:31 AM
An underpowered bow (25 - 30 lb my estimate) is not gonna penetrate riveted steel mail unless it gets lucky and hits a bad link. Mail is really for swords, not arrows and yeah, a sky full of the things is gonna kill a group of guys in chain only - unless the archers are only using really broad tips which is the opposite of what they actually did.

But a modern broadhead or even a practice tip won't penetrate steel riveted mail (unless it's really wide). A blunt will go through the unriveted aluminum stuff even if it's really small. The riveted stuff can't be torn but the unriveted can be.

I don't think he cheated - he just used what was readily available. The stunt can be done for real with a powerful enough bow and the right tips so it's not like he was faking - it's just not as impressive as doing it for real would be. :shrug:
Historically speaking the French knights at Agincourt during the Hundred Years War discovered that even in the heavy plate armor of the Fifteenth Century a sky full of arrows was bad news. :smile:

Teallaura
02-19-2015, 05:44 PM
Historically speaking the French knights at Agincourt during the Hundred Years War discovered that even in the heavy plate armor of the Fifteenth Century a sky full of arrows was bad news. :smile:
Sure - but historically speaking, the English didn't use underpowered bows...

rogue06
02-19-2015, 09:20 PM
Sure - but historically speaking, the English didn't use underpowered bows...
And the French weren't just covered in chain mail which stinks at stopping arrows.

Teallaura
02-20-2015, 01:39 PM
And the French weren't just covered in chain mail which stinks at stopping arrows.

Nor were the British using broad heads or blunts, neither of which would do crap against plate.

rogue06
02-20-2015, 11:24 PM
Nor were the British using broad heads or blunts, neither of which would do crap against plate.
Getting back to the point that modern tests show that long bows rarely penetrated plate except at extremely close range. Most kills were due to "lucky hits" penetrating cracks, seams or through the visor. In fact there are scores of notable knights and royals being killed in the last manner. Many now theorize that most deaths were the result of the impact of wave after wave of arrows striking them essentially beating them to death. Modern scholars have long underestimated the value of the gambeson or padded jacket often worn under the armor.