What is the psychology of faith?

[Lazy Agnostic]

Does it matter which deity one chooses?

[Ryokan]

Does it matter which deity one chooses?
I don't think so, but I haven't really studied the issue. Some kinds of Buddhism probably work different.

[Chappie]

I don't think so, but I haven't really studied the issue. Some kinds of Buddhism probably work different.

I would suggest that that depends on which one created men, and which one men created...

[Lazy Agnostic]

I would suggest that that depends on which one created men, and which one men created...But that's the point, no one can say for sure. Faith seems to work irrespective of theological underpinnings.

[Spokoina]

The psychology of faith for me is very interesting as a topic.

For instance, certain people veer to certain faiths, and even within Christianity, veer to certain christian doctrines, which often, imo, bolster their own self view..

IE, controlling prideful people often describe a controlling prideful God from the scriptures.

[yuzuha]

Hm, I guess I'll post my musings on the topic and see where you all run with it.

I think that Gods and demons are born of the human heart/mind. We create them out of our desires, fears and insecurities.

The eye and mind are wired for pattern matching (essential to the survival of prey animals, which we were for millennia, though this also serves to aid predators, which we recently became), and are so sensitive that they find patterns where none exist (false negatives could prove fatal, while false positives simply wasted a small amount of energy).

The development of intelligence enabled the extension of our pattern matching abilities and this extrapolation is tied to survival instinct (knowing the patterns of prey/predator behavior allowed our ancestors to predict dinner, and to avoid becoming dinner).

A side effect of this intelligence is self-awareness and the realization that there are things in the world that we cannot control, predict or directly sense, or are simiply too complex for our limited intelligence to make sense of. Our survival instinct then kicks in and makes us wary and insecure (heightened awereness is a survival mechanism in strange situations).

Since we are no longer constantly fighting the elements we have time to think and ponder questions directly or indirectly related to our present or future security. While many of these thoughts are only hypothetical, they do trigger the survival mechanisms in the lizard part of our brains. This false triggering of our survival instinct causes anxiety, physical and emotional stress. This stress can cause death by irrational action or slow attrition on the immune system.

Faith gives us a logical dissconnect that allows us to imagine that we are in control, or are safe even when we are not, and ritual provides familiar, reassuring patterns. Together, these constitute yet another survival mechanism that keeps us from shaking our nervous systems apart (our nervous systems are a homeostatic system like a climate control in a building... set it to start heating at 70 and cooling at a fraction of a degree above that and the thing will go crazy and destroy itself constantly switching back and forth between off, heating and cooling)

We create demons from our fears and gods from our desires because they help us survive.

That deities exist in people's minds is not the question, they obviously do. That people, being social animals got together, discussed and agreed on the nature of their group gods (thus creating memes *) and then played "my god is better than your god" between groups, is also a given (even within groups, there is disagreement causing splits into varying sects, which then go at each other's throats).

I find theology fascinating because it says more about human psychology than anything else. As to whether god/s exist in an objective sense, I consider to be useless speculation since it is impossible to verify one way or another. My own personal gods / kami are different from yours (I'm sort of an agnostic, Buddhist, Shintoist) and I recognize them as my own mental creations / imagination (I do not claim that they have an objective reality outside of my own brain. In fact, the universe, the spirit of a tree or thunderstorm is simply my imagination creating an externalized anthropomorphic image that makes it easier to relate to parts of my own mind), though others may experience them because their brains are built the same.... i.e. you and I may feel the same sense of awe and humility standing before a particular tree, monument, view etc. There is something about these things that triggers those feelings in us that we have no vocabulary for. It is easier to talk about if we externalize and anthropmorphize it and call it a god (or aspect of a god), but these things are still products of our own minds. Make sense?

*memes: from wakipedia: Different definitions of the meme generally agree, very roughly, that a meme consists of some sort of a self-propagating unit of cultural evolution having a resemblance to the gene (the unit of genetics). Dawkins introduced the term after writing that evolution depended not on the particular chemical basis of genetics, but only on the existence of a self-replicating unit of transmission—in the case of evolution, the gene. For Dawkins, the meme exemplifies another self-replicating unit, and most importantly, one which he thought would prove useful in explaining human behavior and cultural evolution. Sort of like ideas the propagate like a virus.

[Lazy Agnostic]

Makes sense to me.

[Chappie]

But that's the point, no one can say for sure. Faith seems to work irrespective of theological underpinnings.

I can say for sure... What you mean is that I cannot prove it beyond a shadow of a doubt to you....

[Chappie]

The psychology of faith for me is very interesting as a topic.

For instance, certain people veer to certain faiths, and even within Christianity, veer to certain christian doctrines, which often, imo, bolster their own self view..

IE, controlling prideful people often describe a controlling prideful God from the scriptures.

I have often concluded likewise....

[semmie'ssister]

To me, it's not so much what church you go to, but more so how your relationship is with God. I do believe that if you are a born again christian, it is very important to surround yourself with others who can be supportive and encouraging to you through your spiritual walk with God.

[Chappie]

To me, it's not so much what church you go to, but more so how your relationship is with God. I do believe that if you are a born again christian, it is very important to surround yourself with others who can be supportive and encouraging to you through your spiritual walk with God.

WoW!!!! Talk about walk on credentials and credibility... Hello Semmie'sSister. Pleased ta metcha....

Small question...
What do you mean by Born "again". What actually happens. In order to be born again would not one have to be 1) Born 2) Died 3) and then born again...

[Hail Mary]

Does it matter which deity one chooses?

A deity isn't necessary. Anyone who is not agnostic has faith. And even some agnostics place their faith in reason.

[semmie'ssister]

simply put, to be born again means to be a new creation in Christ. Yes, you must die to yourself, and to the worldly/sinful ways. Obviously, this is not a literal death of your flesh, but of your spirit. The next step is to proclaim Christ as your lord and savior.
So, yes, you die to self, accept Christ as your lord and savior, and are "reborn" as a new creation in Christ.

[daofaz]

Hm, I guess I'll post my musings on the topic and see where you all run with it.

I think that Gods and demons are born of the human heart/mind. We create them out of our desires, fears and insecurities.

The eye and mind are wired for pattern matching (essential to the survival of prey animals, which we were for millennia, though this also serves to aid predators, which we recently became), and are so sensitive that they find patterns where none exist (false negatives could prove fatal, while false positives simply wasted a small amount of energy).

The development of intelligence enabled the extension of our pattern matching abilities and this extrapolation is tied to survival instinct (knowing the patterns of prey/predator behavior allowed our ancestors to predict dinner, and to avoid becoming dinner).

A side effect of this intelligence is self-awareness and the realization that there are things in the world that we cannot control, predict or directly sense, or are simiply too complex for our limited intelligence to make sense of. Our survival instinct then kicks in and makes us wary and insecure (heightened awereness is a survival mechanism in strange situations).

Since we are no longer constantly fighting the elements we have time to think and ponder questions directly or indirectly related to our present or future security. While many of these thoughts are only hypothetical, they do trigger the survival mechanisms in the lizard part of our brains. This false triggering of our survival instinct causes anxiety, physical and emotional stress. This stress can cause death by irrational action or slow attrition on the immune system.

Faith gives us a logical dissconnect that allows us to imagine that we are in control, or are safe even when we are not, and ritual provides familiar, reassuring patterns. Together, these constitute yet another survival mechanism that keeps us from shaking our nervous systems apart (our nervous systems are a homeostatic system like a climate control in a building... set it to start heating at 70 and cooling at a fraction of a degree above that and the thing will go crazy and destroy itself constantly switching back and forth between off, heating and cooling)

We create demons from our fears and gods from our desires because they help us survive.

That deities exist in people's minds is not the question, they obviously do. That people, being social animals got together, discussed and agreed on the nature of their group gods (thus creating memes *) and then played "my god is better than your god" between groups, is also a given (even within groups, there is disagreement causing splits into varying sects, which then go at each other's throats).

I find theology fascinating because it says more about human psychology than anything else.


As to whether god/s exist in an objective sense, I consider to be useless speculation since it is impossible to verify one way or another.



My own personal gods / kami are different from yours (I'm sort of an agnostic, Buddhist, Shintoist) and I recognize them as my own mental creations / imagination (I do not claim that they have an objective reality outside of my own brain. In fact, the universe, the spirit of a tree or thunderstorm is simply my imagination creating an externalized anthropomorphic image that makes it easier to relate to parts of my own mind), though others may experience them because their brains are built the same.... i.e. you and I may feel the same sense of awe and humility standing before a particular tree, monument, view etc. There is something about these things that triggers those feelings in us that we have no vocabulary for. It is easier to talk about if we externalize and anthropmorphize it and call it a god (or aspect of a god), but these things are still products of our own minds. Make sense?

*memes: from wakipedia: Sort of like ideas the propagate like a virus.

A very interesting thought. However, have you read anything by Andrew Newberg/Eugene D'Aquili. There pioneering research in the area of Neuro-Theology has created quite a stir in the Psychology arena. I highly reccomend you study some of their work and then make an educated decision.

Also, as someone who was involved in the Occult for 4 years, I know without a doubt demons do exist and not in my mind. I have experienced the evil of Satan, but more importantly I know the love and peace of God and it is more powerful then anything Satan can throw at me.

The bottom line is, without an experience it is easy to sit back and postulate certain ideologies.

[Adam]

A very interesting thought. However, have you read anything by Andrew Newberg/Eugene D'Aquili. There pioneering research in the area of Neuro-Theology has created quite a stir in the Psychology arena. I highly recommend you study some of their work and then make an educated decision.
Also, as someone who was involved in the Occult for 4 years, I know without a doubt demons do exist and not in my mind. I have experienced the evil of Satan, but more importantly I know the love and peace of God and it is more powerful then anything Satan can throw at me.
The bottom line is, without an experience it is easy to sit back and postulate certain ideologies.
I was fortunate enough not to be in the occult, but from my Baptism in the Spirit 3/25/77 in the Charismatic Renewal I met people who had come out of it and how powerful the demonic is. Exorcism or at least deliverance prayer may be necessary. Fortunately, God and the good spirits are stronger.
To yuzuha I would say that even on your own argument, the readiness of the human mind to recognize demons and deities testifies to how real the entities are to which the human mind has had to learn to respond. We can't see ultra-violet or infra-red rays, we don't need to, but throughout history and pre-history it was necessary for the human mind to perceive the spirit world. Some of us can still draw upon that, to both good and evil purposes.
Adam

[Chappie]

simply put, to be born again means to be a new creation in Christ. Yes, you must die to yourself, and to the worldly/sinful ways. Obviously, this is not a literal death of your flesh, but of your spirit. The next step is to proclaim Christ as your lord and savior.
So, yes, you die to self, accept Christ as your lord and savior, and are "reborn" as a new creation in Christ.

We are born spiritually dead Semmie'sSister. Die to self means that we are to treat our flesh with all our worldly desires as tho the flesh was dead. :teeth:

[betzerg]

Does it matter which deity one chooses?

The question itself is a contradiction. The psychology of religion is in a sense a crisis of experience...and experiences aren't based on rational. To sit back a "choose" a diety would in fact negate the faith factor needed to have belief. Most people don't just get a "book" and pick..they need some kind of "leap" into either experience, or comfort, or community.

So, while, in many cases it may not matter which diety one chooses....to make a statement that it doesn't matter negates the very purpose of the question.

When man seeks to find what is true and "real" in his life he is usually drawn to what has been "missed" or "left out" of what he has experienced. And personally, I believe that this "missingness"..this "searchingness" inate in man existence BECAUSE there is need to reconnect with the balance of godlikeness given to him by HIS creator. So, in a sense, picking the diety whose very breath gives you life has much more satisfaction than say....ZEUS> YES, I believe in absolute truth..so shoot me.

Shalom,

BETZER

[yuzuha]

A very interesting thought. However, have you read anything by Andrew Newberg/Eugene D'Aquili. There pioneering research in the area of Neuro-Theology has created quite a stir in the Psychology arena. I highly reccomend you study some of their work and then make an educated decision.

Also, as someone who was involved in the Occult for 4 years, I know without a doubt demons do exist and not in my mind. I have experienced the evil of Satan, but more importantly I know the love and peace of God and it is more powerful then anything Satan can throw at me.

The bottom line is, without an experience it is easy to sit back and postulate certain ideologies.

Possibly, though I'm terrible with names. I've read papers in varous journals etc. involving studies of the parietal lobe of the brain and sensations that can be interpreted as spiritual, MRI & PET scans, epilepsy, brain damage, pulsed magnetic fields and hallucinatory experiences so I might have run across some of their stuff.

Involved in the occult eh? Yes, been there, done that, got the t-shirt and coffee mug... was married to a "black artist", had a friend who was the daughter of a Blackfoot medicine man who practiced Indian magic and Voodoo, been to seances and did tarot readings, mucked in hauntings, hung out with people in the Theosopical Society, burned a pheasant in a cemetary to remove a curse a coven had placed on someone (no, the phesant was simply road-kill... I wanted a dramatic witch-doctoring ceremony, but I'm not into live sacrifices) and have practiced various forms of meditation, including Chod (a visualization yoga that involves cutting yourself up and inviting ghosts, demons and whoever to dine on your body), off and on since the 60's. So, yes. I've been involved with the occult too, and many of those people take themselves way too seriously (a few even become obsessive-compulsive about it). It can also become a narcotic too, particularly if some charismatic nut cases like Charles Manson or Jim Jones are involved.

[daofaz]

Possibly, though I'm terrible with names. I've read papers in varous journals etc. involving studies of the parietal lobe of the brain and sensations that can be interpreted as spiritual, MRI & PET scans, epilepsy, brain damage, pulsed magnetic fields and hallucinatory experiences so I might have run across some of their stuff.

Involved in the occult eh? Yes, been there, done that, got the t-shirt and coffee mug... was married to a "black artist", had a friend who was the daughter of a Blackfoot medicine man who practiced Indian magic and Voodoo, been to seances and did tarot readings, mucked in hauntings, hung out with people in the Theosopical Society, burned a pheasant in a cemetary to remove a curse a coven had placed on someone (no, the phesant was simply road-kill... I wanted a dramatic witch-doctoring ceremony, but I'm not into live sacrifices) and have practiced various forms of meditation, including Chod (a visualization yoga that involves cutting yourself up and inviting ghosts, demons and whoever to dine on your body), off and on since the 60's. So, yes. I've been involved with the occult too, and many of those people take themselves way too seriously (a few even become obsessive-compulsive about it). It can also become a narcotic too, particularly if some charismatic nut cases like Charles Manson or Jim Jones are involved.

Wow! I guess you do have the right to sit back and make judgments. What is your current spiritual stance?

[yuzuha]

Wow! I guess you do have the right to sit back and make judgments. What is your current spiritual stance?

Spiritual stance? (has strange vision of Tiger Woods having an out of body experience and trying to address a ball on the astral turf of some etherial 18th green :lol: ) I think herd instinct, partial reenforcement and the imagination are incredibly powerful forces that are capable of shaping one's reality. Drinking a cup of tea or watching a sunrise can be as spiritual as they are mundane... which you percieve them to be is all a state of mind. For example: Did that coven have magical powers that could have power over my friend?... No. But they did have the charisma to make her imagine that they did and since she imagined that she was cursed, her imagination caused her to fear and to become sick. Did I have the magical/spiritual power to remove the curse? No, but by acting as if I did, along with getting some other people to stage a dramatic enough little purification ceremony, we made her imagine that our power was stronger than theirs. Since she imagined that we broke the curse and sent her healing energy, her imagination started to make her well instead of sick (yes, your brain is part of your body so your mind can influence body health to some degree, as in the placebo effect.... witch doctors manage to cure many ailments despite primitive drugs etc. because they make the patients believe in their power and imagine that they are getting better, and this is something that is lacking in the clinical atmosphere of modern medicine. I think doctors could improve their success rates if they combined a little witch doctoring along with modern medicine.)

I suppose you could say that my philosophy is a mix of Shinto, Theravada and Vajrayana Buddhism, though some of my Christian friends call me an atheist or a pantheist, depending on their mood (which I suppose I am, by their definitions). Other than that, I'm not sure how to answer your question.

[daofaz]

Spiritual stance? (has strange vision of Tiger Woods having an out of body experience and trying to address a ball on the astral turf of some etherial 18th green :lol: ) I think herd instinct, partial reenforcement and the imagination are incredibly powerful forces that are capable of shaping one's reality. Drinking a cup of tea or watching a sunrise can be as spiritual as they are mundane... which you percieve them to be is all a state of mind. For example: Did that coven have magical powers that could have power over my friend?... No. But they did have the charisma to make her imagine that they did and since she imagined that she was cursed, her imagination caused her to fear and to become sick. Did I have the magical/spiritual power to remove the curse? No, but by acting as if I did, along with getting some other people to stage a dramatic enough little purification ceremony, we made her imagine that our power was stronger than theirs. Since she imagined that we broke the curse and sent her healing energy, her imagination started to make her well instead of sick (yes, your brain is part of your body so your mind can influence body health to some degree, as in the placebo effect.... witch doctors manage to cure many ailments despite primitive drugs etc. because they make the patients believe in their power and imagine that they are getting better, and this is something that is lacking in the clinical atmosphere of modern medicine. I think doctors could improve their success rates if they combined a little witch doctoring along with modern medicine.)

I suppose you could say that my philosophy is a mix of Shinto, Theravada and Vajrayana Buddhism, though some of my Christian friends call me an atheist or a pantheist, depending on their mood (which I suppose I am, by their definitions). Other than that, I'm not sure how to answer your question.


I guess we have different thoughts when it comes to spiritual experiences. I agree with you that the mind is an amazing part of who we are. I also agree that suggestion is a powerful tool (good & bad). My experience with the supernatural was much more visual & experiential then mind-altering suggestions. I visually experienced things that defied gravity and other physical laws of nature.

No, it was not imagned or suggested. I guess you either believe in reality or you don't. What I experienced was reality. Whether you believe in Kami or God, you have a belief in a Diety that you believe is real. I have experienced Satan's power (reality) and I have experienced God's power (reality). There is no comparison. God is real and has the power. Satan is nothing. He would like us not to believe in him or believe in anything else except God.

Thanks for sharing your experience.

[yuzuha]

I guess we have different thoughts when it comes to spiritual experiences. I agree with you that the mind is an amazing part of who we are. I also agree that suggestion is a powerful tool (good & bad). My experience with the supernatural was much more visual & experiential then mind-altering suggestions. I visually experienced things that defied gravity and other physical laws of nature.

ROFL, yes, I've done some pretty funky experimenting too.... some of those demons can get pretty vivid under LSD (there was a lot of that going around in the 60s's ^-^)


No, it was not imagned or suggested. I guess you either believe in reality or you don't. What I experienced was reality. Whether you believe in Kami or God, you have a belief in a Diety that you believe is real. I have experienced Satan's power (reality) and I have experienced God's power (reality). There is no comparison. God is real and has the power. Satan is nothing. He would like us not to believe in him or believe in anything else except God.

Thanks for sharing your experience.


Oh, I believe in reality, but I also believe that your perception of that reality is filtered through your senses, intellectual concepts and social agreements, and with these you construct an internal reality that makes sense to you and has enough commonality that you can communicate features of it to others... not everyone has the same reality though... a food that tastes bitter to you may not taste like anything to someone else depending on a slight genetic variation in taste, or you may interpret a 500nm light as green because that is what you were taught that experience is called, yet not everyone is capable of experiencing it the same as you. Your reality is not exactly the same as another person's reality, nor that of a cat, yet we must agree that there is some external reality that affects and creates our internal version of it, as well as affects other parts of that external reality (i.e. you cannot "know" radio because you cannot experience radio waves, but televisions and radios are affected by them. Since we can consistantly create this spooky magic trick, we agree that there must be aspects of this external reality that we can understand in terms of abstract intellectual devices, but cannot "know" because we are totally incapable of directly experiencing them), and other parts of it escape our intellects... try to describe the color red to a congenitally blind person or the smell of lilac to an alien... These are parts of internal reality that we can only refer to in terms of common shared experiences because of agreement on terms and because our sensory wiring is roughly similar.

All, I can really tell from your posts is that something frightened you and you found a mental button that made it go away. Whether you found monsters from your own id, negative chi, were mentally influenced by magnetic fields or whatever isn't really important. People have similar experiences but interpret it differently... to you it might be God and Satan to someone else it might be Vishnu and Kali, and to another it might have been an energy imbalance, or a pesky ghost (I do not doubt your story or that these creatures inhabit your internal reality, and think it is fortunate that you found a way to keep from going off the deep end. But, the metaphysics of external reality is something I leave up to scientists to discover if there is anything there and figure out how to measure it if there is.)

[indoctrinated]

I've just joined and been searching for a thread to put my first post. I'll sort out all the technical stuff later, I hope.

I call myself indoctrinated because I was. I have gone from fundamentalist to evangelical to liberal. I have always been and am still very active in my church. I am now in my fifties, with family, commitments, etc. So re-inventing myself completely is not really an option!

I know from the inside about Christian faith. I was not playng at it and have always been sincere, both in my practice and in my study and searching after truth. Being a Christian has taught me about love and community and forgiveness and much more. But there was a down side which I probably don't need to elaborate.

I have worked hard recently to free myself from some of the emotional baggage from my dysfunctional family and early church experiences. Now I find I don't "have" to believe. I also realise that I am a Christian because they got to me first.

I don't want to give up "faith", because of the good bits. But I no longer believe that it necessarily represents objective reality.

My church no longer scratches where I itch and I am not free to talk about the Bible and religion in an informed way for fear of hurting other people's faith.

Where do I go from here? I need somewhere to go to, because church and Christianity have always provided my main source of social and emotional support. It is also my main source of mythology and spirituality, but it just isn't working that well anymore.

I can't put the genie back into the bottle. I don't want to turn into a virulently anti-Christian as some do. I just want to find some like-minded people and a spiritual home where I don't have to be intellectually dishonest. I'm just weary!

[yuzuha]

Hm, I don't know. You might try the Unitarians, they're a pretty amiable but non-dogmatic lot

[indoctrinated]

Thanks for the suggestion, yuzuha.

I've thought about investigating them, or the Quakers. The trouble is that in my country (Britain) all these denominations are on the decline. Even if I can find a congregation nearby it'll likely be more culturally out of touch than my own, with an average age of 60+. And I have invested a lot of energy in becoming part of the church community I'm in. And in encouraging a certain amount of creativity and intellectual enquiry.

I suppose I want to have my cake and eat it. I want the creativity and energy of some forms of evangelicalism, and the intellectual honesty of some forms of liberalism and the emotional intelligence of some forms of humanism.

But unlike in America, all forms of institutionalized Christianity (and not just Christianity) in this country are on their last legs. So at a local level there isn't in practice much choice.

Or am I just still psychologically in the fundamentalist mindset and looking for that perfect church that is a figment of my imagination?

Hey ho!

[Cynic Sage]

Or am I just still psychologically in the fundamentalist mindset and looking for that perfect church that is a figment of my imagination?


In my opinion you still could be. I've know of fundamentalists who, when they apostasized, keep the fundy mind-set and hermeneutic and just graft it onto another ideology (take Dan Barker for example, he heads an anti-religious organization that actually hands out tracts).

I know from the inside about Christian faith. I was not playng at it and have always been sincere, both in my practice and in my study and searching after truth. Being a Christian has taught me about love and community and forgiveness and much more. But there was a down side which I probably don't need to elaborate.

What were ya, Catholic, Anglican...?

[indoctrinated]

In my opinion you still could be. I've know of fundamentalists who, when they apostasized, keep the fundy mind-set and hermeneutic and just graft it onto another ideology (take Dan Barker for example, he heads an anti-religious organization that actually hands out tracts).

What were ya, Catholic, Anglican...?

Hi, :smile:

Yes, and that's exactly what I want to avoid. I believe addicts do the same sort of thing. I've read that it's possible to be "cured" of a drink problem, for example, by becoming obsessively dependent on some other thing. And I've read things which view some forms of religious obsession as addiction.

What I'm not sure about is whether it's possible to stay in an environment where at least some of the other people are affected to various degrees with unhelpful religious mindsets. Can I do that and still be able to sort out my own hangups?

I either find myself succumbing to unhelpful pressures or reacting against them angrily. There's a sort of push-pull effect.

As a child I was "converted" in an independent fundamentalist church. I moved to Anglicanism and then to Methodism, where I still am at the moment. Each time I've moved location, I've sought out a church where I felt moderately comfortable. I don't feel a strong allegience to any particular denomination.

[indoctrinated]

I really am interested in this whole psychology of faith thing!

I've been reading some of the theology threads. It's weird because at one time I would have been passionately involved in some of these arguments. It would have seemed so important.

But now a lot of it just seems irrelevant to real life. :sigh:

I wonder how I ever thought it was so important or made sense.

Is this because, through circumstances I have been able to step outside a closed system and view it as if I was an outsider?

Is there something about all systems and ideologies? From the inside they appear coherent and it's very difficult to see the contradictions and irrelevancies from inside. So it often takes some sort of crisis to open a person's eyes.

I'm interested in the whole emotional dependency thing too.

I think that not all religion can be unhealthy but once one has experienced an unhealthy form, is it possible to do anything but leave it alone completely?

This is not just an academic question for me, obviously! :smile: