Just what is a Miracle

[maudman]

There seems to be a reoccurring theme in debates about miracles. What do we mean when we say miracles? How does the scripture depict miracles? We often look at miracles from the perspective of God. What we call the supernatural or Super nature of God’s power. The perception of miracles is often in contexts of God’s power “over his creation”. In other words God being exempt from the fundamental workings of the empirical nature of the Universe. Is this the case.


11. And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
12. And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
13. And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
14. And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

Now I understand that these verses have different meanings for different peoples. But how do you see verse 14 in its context to God.

I would like all to respond, TE’s YEC’s OEC’s What is your take on the context of this verse.

[Darth Executor]

There seems to be a reoccurring theme in debates about miracles. What do we mean when we say miracles? How does the scripture depict miracles? We often look at miracles from the perspective of God. What we call the supernatural or Super nature of God’s power. The perception of miracles is often in contexts of God’s power “over his creation”.

To me, a miracle is an event that we cannot understand how it occured. For example, we don't know how to raise the dead and thus Jesus's ressurection would be a miracle. We don't know how to turn peanut butter into chocolate fudge and such a metamorphosis would be a miracle.


In other words God being exempt from the fundamental workings of the empirical nature of the Universe. Is this the case.

I don't think that's the case. I believe God implemented mechanisms for every "miracle" that He needs when He made the universe. Why bother with rules if He's gonna end up breaking them?

Now I understand that these verses have different meanings for different peoples. But how do you see verse 14 in its context to God.

I would like all to respond, TE’s YEC’s OEC’s What is your take on the context of this verse.

My take is that humans will be decieved by the devil with great miracles. I'm not quite sure what you want to know.

[maudman]

Well

What I am getting at is that in most of the scripture we see miracles are acts of God. But here there is this beast that is raised and this beast is performing miracles. This beast is performing great wonders. He is making Fire come down to the earth in the sight of men and decieving and causing some to worship a beast.

We often look at miracles associated with something God does but not understood.

What are we saying when we say not understood? Something understands and directs the out come. Would people thousands of years ago see the things happening today and think of miracles as they see many of the things that we do that would be beyond they're Vocabulary. Can miracles at some point be explained.

[maudman]

To me, a miracle is an event that we cannot understand how it occured. For example, we don't know how to raise the dead and thus Jesus's ressurection would be a miracle. We don't know how to turn peanut butter into chocolate fudge and such a metamorphosis would be a miracle.



Yes I agree, Our limited understanding can make something a miracle. Or a power not seen or understood that goes beyond our rationalizing.


I don't think that's the case. I believe God implemented mechanisms for every "miracle" that He needs when He made the universe. Why bother with rules if He's gonna end up breaking them?
[QUOTE]

I understand what your saying here. But what if the fundemental nature of the Physical Universe and it limits were unable to fully express the true nature of God?

Rather than God implementing Mechanisms he simply act through his true nature at times he chooses. I not sure that God has to falsify the true nature of physics. He may merely demonstrates though miracles its limits that reveals a truth of his nature or power. Life had to exist before the creation of the physical universe.Can the world in which we live demonstrate the true nature of God without miracles.


[QUOTE=Darth Executor]
My take is that humans will be decieved by the devil with great miracles. I'm not quite sure what you want to know.

If the miracles of the beast are not of God and his nature what kind of miracles are they.

Thanks Darth G

[Darth Executor]

I understand what your saying here. But what if the fundemental nature of the Physical Universe and it limits were unable to fully express the true nature of God?

They don't need to fully express God's nature. They only need to express whatever parts of it that God intended it. Remember, God made the universe to His specifications. While the universe is not perfect, I would imagine God made it perfect for His purpose.

Rather than God implementing Mechanisms he simply act through his true nature at times he chooses. I not sure that God has to falsify the true nature of physics. He may merely demonstrates though miracles its limits that reveals a truth of his nature or power. Life had to exist before the creation of the physical universe.Can the world in which we live demonstrate the true nature of God without miracles.

My point is that I don't see why God would make some rules and then break them. God could rearrange the universe to suit whatever whim comes to Him but such an idea makes Him seem a bit less competent than I like. It seems to me that it would be far more efficient for Him to build whatever properties He needs in the universe then use them when needed.




If the miracles of the beast are not of God and his nature what kind of miracles are they.

The beast also has power and I am certain it has information we don't which would include things we do not understand. Perhaps the devil has figured out how some of the "secret" mechanisms in the universe works and is manipulating them.

[maudman]

They don't need to fully express God's nature. They only need to express whatever parts of it that God intended it.
Remember, God made the universe to His specifications. While the universe is not perfect, I would imagine God made it perfect for His purpose.
[QUOTE]

I'm not so sure that God made the universe to any specifacation, But that the properties of matter are inherit within itself. That the allowance of matter to retain its properites are inhert because of the grace of God. If God allows matter to retain its properites which are naturally inherit, God preserves truth. laws of Matter became a consequnces of God in motion retaining it properties.

[QUOTE=Darth Executor]
My point is that I don't see why God would make some rules and then break them. God could rearrange the universe to suit whatever whim comes to Him but such an idea makes Him seem a bit less competent than I like. It seems to me that it would be far more efficient for Him to build whatever properties He needs in the universe then use them when needed.
[QUOTE]

I don't think God made rules concerning matter. I think Their a consequence inherit of existence. I think God observed matter and then developed rules concerning it. The laws of nature are not a natural extention of the laws of matter.

Now the laws of nature can reflect to a greater or lesser God's manipulative genius of matter. Why do I say this cause the laws of nature don't destroy the laws of matter while working contray to them.




[QUOTE=Darth Executor]
The beast also has power and I am certain it has information we don't which would include things we do not understand. Perhaps the devil has figured out how some of the "secret" mechanisms in the universe works and is manipulating them.

To me the miracles are no more then what we see today. They are mans creative geniuses used for his own selfish agenda's. To me there is Nothing mysterious about miracles except the spirit that does them. Insights into arrangements of dirt that are rare are the domain of science. The evil is man deceiving himself and those around him with his own miracles.

Thanks for the post Darth nice talking

peace be with you.