Did you choose your religion consciously?

[cavegirl]

Or was it a choice? If you'd been raised in a different part of the world, do you think it likely you'd have a different religion?

[bar Jonah]

I was raised in a conservative, Texan, Southern Baptist family.

Upon leaving home and going out into the world, I was not and had never been really a Christian. I talked the talk, thought I was a Christian, but didnt' really have faith in Jesus, or His resurrection. I saw God as a prayer vending machine, and my relationship (what little there was) was based on what I could get out of God.

In the world, my pseudo-christian trappings quickly fell away, and I got into Wicca for most of my adult life. Until about 5 1/2 years ago. A series of personal observations and revelations and hitting morally rock bottom... led to my losing faith in Wicca and neo-paganism. So, that left me as a "searching agnostic," so to speak. I asked all my friends why they believe what they believe. Judaism, Buddhism, humanism, Christianity (Catholic and non)...

All but two of my Christian friends refused to answer that, because they said they "don't want to tell you what you believe is wrong; I don't want to judge." I begged them to witness to me, and they refused. But two did.

Christianity was the last hting I expected to be true. But after two or three months of dialogue with my two friends, examining various sources of alleged evidence, and much soul-searching, I came to the unexpected and largely undesired conclusion that Christianity is true.

So, the Holy Spirit was certainly drawing me, and I responded to God's call (election) by faith, according to the way God requires men to respond during this age -- namely to confess Jesus as Lord, and believe God rose Him from the dead.

[cavegirl]

I was raised in a conservative, Texan, Southern Baptist family.

Upon leaving home and going out into the world, I was not and had never been really a Christian. I talked the talk, thought I was a Christian, but didnt' really have faith in Jesus, or His resurrection. I saw God as a prayer vending machine, and my relationship (what little there was) was based on what I could get out of God.

In the world, my pseudo-christian trappings quickly fell away, and I got into Wicca for most of my adult life. Until about 5 1/2 years ago. A series of personal observations and revelations and hitting morally rock bottom... led to my losing faith in Wicca and neo-paganism. So, that left me as a "searching agnostic," so to speak. I asked all my friends why they believe what they believe. Judaism, Buddhism, humanism, Christianity (Catholic and non)...

All but two of my Christian friends refused to answer that, because they said they "don't want to tell you what you believe is wrong; I don't want to judge." I begged them to witness to me, and they refused. But two did.

Christianity was the last hting I expected to be true. But after two or three months of dialogue with my two friends, examining various sources of alleged evidence, and much soul-searching, I came to the unexpected and largely undesired conclusion that Christianity is true.

So, the Holy Spirit was certainly drawing me, and I responded to God's call (election) by faith, according to the way God requires men to respond during this age -- namely to confess Jesus as Lord, and believe God rose Him from the dead.
Ok not an overwhelmingly great number of responses so far, so I guess I have to thank you especially for taking the time to respond.

cg

[NeilUnreal]

I think the lack of responses may be due to the complexity associated with the reply.

I was raised in a Christian home, but in my particular sect (Southern Baptist), one is required to make a conscious decision to become a Christian before being allowed to join the church. For most people, this happens around the age of 10 or so (9 in my case; perhaps I was precocious :lol: ).

Of course, it’s not like all the variety of religious choices are laid out to a child in the typical Southern Baptist home by the age of 9. But in my later life, I have traveled, studied, and become acquainted with the great diversity of religious opinion – monotheist, polytheist, pan(en)theist, atheist, agnostic, and other.

I have always consciously maintained my original choice to become a Christian. However, what that choice has come to mean to me has been variously flavored by the other beliefs I’ve encountered. (Particularly, but not limited to Zen Buddhism, Taoism, and panentheism).

Given my personality, if I had been raised as a Buddhist (for example), I would probably describe myself as a Buddhist whose experience is flavored by Christianity, etc.

However, what all this means to me as a Christian is, that 1) I believe Christ is the sole mediator between the Godhead and all beings, but 2) God meets each being at the place where they are in existence and takes them from there. The very fact that I can point to Christ as the sole mediator, removes me from the position of being able to say how God works with anyone other than myself. I am not privy to the conversation between God and another, and so I can only hold up my own experience as a “finger pointing to the moon.”

Unambiguously define "concious choice" and I'll give you an unambiguous answer. Until then, like one of Tolkien’s elves, I must answer the original question both “yes” and “no." (Or maybe "mu!")

-Neil

[SlipSlidin'Away]

Or was it a choice? If you'd been raised in a different part of the world, do you think it likely you'd have a different religion?

I've been arguing with some atheists on another board where they claim that they cannot choose to believe in God. If you can't choose that, then you can't choose the associated beliefs.

First, let me ask. Can you choose to believe in God? If not, then the point seems to be moot. If yes, how does one go about it?

Slipster

[Darth Executor]

Depends what you mean by choice. If choice means I sat down one day, snapped my fingers and say "you know what, I think I'm gonna be a Christian now", then no. I became a Christian because I realized that in my worst times God was there.

I did grow up in a Christian house but the religious lessons learned there had 0 bearing on my reconversion.

[shunyadragon]

Depends what you mean by choice. If choice means I sat down one day, snapped my fingers and say "you know what, I think I'm gonna be a Christian now", then no. I became a Christian because I realized that in my worst times God was there.

I did grow up in a Christian house but the religious lessons learned there had 0 bearing on my reconversion.

I would disagree with this based on the evidence that the majority of Christians as with all other religions today, basically still embrace the religion and faith of their parents and peers. Christians basically remain Christian, Moslems Islamic, and Jews Jewish. Youthful wanderings aside, most come home to roost, and rationally make some sort of peace with the apparent contradictions that made them wander. To negate the early instructions, Christian atmosphere and peer influence on the choice of faith is creating a self-delusion on what obviously is an overwhelming influence on the nature of ones belief.

Yes, it is likely that if all the Christians responding here were raised in a traditional Islam society, 99%+ would be moslems today.

My journey will be the subject of a later post, but from an objective perspective considering the possibility that I was raised in a traditionally Islamic world I would than have to begin my search for truth from that worldview.

[shunyadragon]

I've been arguing with some atheists on another board where they claim that they cannot choose to believe in God. If you can't choose that, then you can't choose the associated beliefs.

First, let me ask. Can you choose to believe in God? If not, then the point seems to be moot. If yes, how does one go about it?

Slipster

The reality, of course, is that people can chose to believe or not believe in God. Most atheists believe that based on their objective empirical and rational investigation of the evidence they could not make that chose.

From my point of view most people do make a selective and biased evaluation of the evidence available when making their choice. Those that have rejected God and became atheists have chosen the more objective route for making their decisions, but that of course does not necessarilly make it right.

[Tim Holt]

First, let me ask. Can you choose to believe in God? If not, then the point seems to be moot. If yes, how does one go about it?

Good point. It seems that most philosophers think that you can't choose what to believe, and most non-philosophers think that you can.

I think that we can exercise some indirect control over our beliefs, by deciding what evidence we expose ourselves to, and deciding how we approach that evidence, but that we can't simply choose what we believe.

This has the slightly strange implication that we have more control over other people's beliefs than we have over our own, because we can lie to other people more convincingly than we can lie to ourselves.

[jason]

Or was it a choice? If you'd been raised in a different part of the world, do you think it likely you'd have a different religion?
I'm not sure choice was the right word.

I was an atheist until age 18 (from around age 14 ish, prior to that essentially agnostic, I choose to become an atheist) when I discovered the truth of Christianity, in part from evidence and in part from personal experience.

Would I have ever been anything else in the long run, no, but there are theological reasons not really relevant to the discussion that would make me offer such a conclusion (me being essentially a variety of calvinist).

Jason

[jason]

First, let me ask. Can you choose to believe in God? If not, then the point seems to be moot. If yes, how does one go about it?

You can't really directly choose to believe anything as such. That is not within your power.

But that is not to say that you have no control over your beliefs.

After all, you can choose to go and study up on a topic and learn as much as you can, weight the evidence, consider it with as open mind as possible as so on. All of these things are entirely within your control.

And over time, assuming the evidence stacks up and the belief is warranted, you can come to believe other than you once did.

So it is true you cannot directly choose your beliefs, but there is no excuse for beliveing wrongly because it is well within your powers to choose to seriously evaluate the merits of a belief and how seriously you approach such a task.

I would contend that most people who claim "well I can't choose to believe in God" (although technically correct) as if this justifies the unreasonableness of God punishing them for such unbelief, have probably also never made a particularly good faith effort to assess the evidence seriously either. But that is just an anecdotal observation based on the way they behave.

Jason

[Darth Executor]

I would disagree with this

You'd disagree with what? My personal testimony? Love the way you broad brush all christians and assume I MUST be a brainless moron.

[FirstSunday33ad]

Or was it a choice? If you'd been raised in a different part of the world, do you think it likely you'd have a different religion?

It depends on the degree of individual freedom allowed and the degree of freedom of worship. If adopting a belief contrary to the "authorized" belief would result in ostracism, imprisonment or death, then it is unlikely that you would violate the appoved belief.

Do you mean in a tolerant, western-style, individually free society or do you mean in a closed, structured, collective society?

[Higon]

From my point of view most people do make a selective and biased evaluation of the evidence available when making their choice. Those that have rejected God and became atheists have chosen the more objective route for making their decisions, but that of course does not necessarilly make it right.

Yeah, we are biased, they are objective. :ahem:

I´ve chosen Christianity based on evidence. If I were a Muslim, a Indian or a Borg I´d live within a different cultural lexicon, but the evidence for Christianity would still be the same.

Assuming that I were the same person, with the same knowledge and access to information I have now, but living in a another culture, chances are that I´d be a Christian.

There´s a post on this subject in the STR section. Check it out: http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showthread.php?t=47254

[cavegirl]

Do you mean in a tolerant, western-style, individually free society or do you mean in a closed, structured, collective society?Both actually. The fact that it makes a difference (to you) is interesting. But initially I was thinking about the free choice in a one-religion-society option. Suppose that where you live the dominant religion would not be Christianity; do you think you would be a Christian?

[Meh_Gerbil]

I was unconscious at the time...

Sorry.

Continue.

[SlipSlidin'Away]

You can't really directly choose to believe anything as such. That is not within your power.

But that is not to say that you have no control over your beliefs.

After all, you can choose to go and study up on a topic and learn as much as you can, weight the evidence, consider it with as open mind as possible as so on. All of these things are entirely within your control.

And over time, assuming the evidence stacks up and the belief is warranted, you can come to believe other than you once did.

So it is true you cannot directly choose your beliefs, but there is no excuse for beliveing wrongly because it is well within your powers to choose to seriously evaluate the merits of a belief and how seriously you approach such a task.

I would contend that most people who claim "well I can't choose to believe in God" (although technically correct) as if this justifies the unreasonableness of God punishing them for such unbelief, have probably also never made a particularly good faith effort to assess the evidence seriously either. But that is just an anecdotal observation based on the way they behave.

Jason

You seem to imply that if one chooses to study, they would come up with the 'right' answer (not believing wrongly) and since you're Christian, I'll further assume that you mean that the right answer is Christianity.

What if further study leads one farther away from Christianity?

Slipster

[jason]

You seem to imply that if one chooses to study, they would come up with the 'right' answer (not believing wrongly) and since you're Christian, I'll further assume that you mean that the right answer is Christianity.

What if further study leads one farther away from Christianity?

Slipster
No I wasn't suggesting that, just that it is possible to change your beliefs, although not directly.

Jason

[SlipSlidin'Away]

You seem to imply that if one chooses to study, they would come up with the 'right' answer (not believing wrongly) and since you're Christian, I'll further assume that you mean that the right answer is Christianity.

What if further study leads one farther away from Christianity?


No I wasn't suggesting that, just that it is possible to change your beliefs, although not directly.

Jason

Thanks for clearing that up.

Many of the atheists that I've read claim that further study leads away from Christianity. Your statement seems to affirm that possibility.

Slipster

[HRG_new]

You can't really directly choose to believe anything as such. That is not within your power.

But that is not to say that you have no control over your beliefs.

After all, you can choose to go and study up on a topic and learn as much as you can, weight the evidence, consider it with as open mind as possible as so on. All of these things are entirely within your control.

Sure. But the results of those studies are not under our control.

Analogy: It was my decision to enter the casino and play at the roulette table. That does not mean that I chose the number which came up. It was my decision to study mathematics, among other things. That does not mean that I chose to believe that the fundamental theorem of algebra is true.


And over time, assuming the evidence stacks up and the belief is warranted, you can come to believe other than you once did.

And what if it doesn't stack up ?


So it is true you cannot directly choose your beliefs, but there is no excuse for beliveing wrongly because it is well within your powers to choose to seriously evaluate the merits of a belief and how seriously you approach such a task.

But what if you, after intensive and honest studies, still continue to believe "wrongly" (which will not be "wrongly" for you, of course) ?


I would contend that most people who claim "well I can't choose to believe in God" (although technically correct) as if this justifies the unreasonableness of God punishing them for such unbelief,

And pray tell, why doesn't this justify the unreasonableness of a punishment for something I cannot do any more than flying to the moon by flapping my arms ?

have probably also never made a particularly good faith effort to assess the evidence seriously either. But that is just an anecdotal observation based on the way they behave.


While I appreciate your last sentence, I suspect that for you an assessment of the evidence which doesn't agree with your beliefs is not "in particular good faith" or "serious".

[jason]

Thanks for clearing that up.

Many of the atheists that I've read claim that further study leads away from Christianity. Your statement seems to affirm that possibility.

Slipster
It would still not remove their guilt. I don't really think atheism is an intellecutally tenable position. But that is beside the point.

I was not speaking to the question of what direction study would lead you in, just that changing your belief is possible.

And given the drivel i've seen from some of the atheists in question who make claims like that (Say Dan Barker) I don't really think you could call the effort "good faith"

Jason

[miriam]

I must say this discussion is getting a little off track, don't you think? As to the original question, "Did you Choose your religion consciously?" I must say I did. I grew up in a home without God. I am now a Christian, I chose to believe in Yeshua (or did he choose me?) I know he drew me to Him, but ultimately I chose to follow Christ. So, yes you can choose your religion consciously. Someone posted that people usually choose the religion of their parents. But, I honestly believe God is actively drawing us to Him, giving us the hunger to know Him, but the actual choice is left up to us. We can walk away or stay.

[shunyadragon]

I must say this discussion is getting a little off track, don't you think? As to the original question, "Did you Choose your religion consciously?" I must say I did. I grew up in a home without God. I am now a Christian, I chose to believe in Yeshua (or did he choose me?) I know he drew me to Him, but ultimately I chose to follow Christ. So, yes you can choose your religion consciously. Someone posted that people usually choose the religion of their parents. But, I honestly believe God is actively drawing us to Him, giving us the hunger to know Him, but the actual choice is left up to us. We can walk away or stay.

I would be interested to know what you mean by you grew up 'without God'. Were your parents atheists?

[Geifodd]

The original question in this thread was:

Did you choose your religion consciously?

No. In order for me to practice my religion, it has been entirely necessary to conduct as much research as possible. Even after ten years of my becoming, I am still researching each and every day. However, even with all of this research, my inclination toward this religion is something that remains largely intuitive. It has been with me ever since I was born (or at least as far back as I can consciously remember). I did not choose to follow the Prince of Darkness -- He chose me.

[mentored1]

Or was it a choice? If you'd been raised in a different part of the world, do you think it likely you'd have a different religion?

Good question and topic for discussion... :chat:


I was raised Catholic - never stuck... Around puberty decided I wanted to try and figure things out myself... Surfed through Wicca, Hindu, Islam, Buddhist, Existenialist, Mormon, JW, Bible... and probably some others... Wrote some of my own ideas of spirituality (probably amalgams of other stuff) and was involved in occult stuff (visiting graves, ouija, trances, etc)...

After the birth of my daughter I encountered a lot of evangelical christianity... Bible baptist persuasion and was 'saved'... Walked that path diligently and almost stepped up as a preacher... I think my ability to connect the dots and explore concepts helped me with that... Anyways after some 'discoveries' of doctrinal issues and lengthly discussions with pastors and missionaries I lost my vision of faith and slid into a funk... Emerged from it through philosophy... Just doubt and question everything and be open to the answer that arrives...

So in hindsight I guess I chose my current position... It certainly seems I did... but then again we're faced with the problem that all these things seem to work together and fashion a history that defies random choice or accidents... Perhaps our faith or lack thereof chooses us?

Take care

[Bettenoir]

I was raised in a non strict chrisian household and loved my religion for a long time and wanetd to train to be a minister. when i changed my religion a few yesr later is was definalty conciously,i knew what i was doing 100%. Growing up in a christian household it was expected that we would grow up christian. Being baptised as baby's asumes the same thing but i feel these choice's should be only our's to make.

[shunyadragon]

I was raised in a non strict chrisian household and loved my religion for a long time and wanetd to train to be a minister. when i changed my religion a few yesr later is was definalty conciously,i knew what i was doing 100%. Growing up in a christian household it was expected that we would grow up christian. Being baptised as baby's asumes the same thing but i feel these choice's should be only our's to make.

What did you change your religion to?

[Bettenoir]

I changed from christian too theistic satanist. I fully went into the change with my eye's open,although i feel that Satan did choose me, i just chose not to listen to him for years.

[miriam]

I would be interested to know what you mean by you grew up 'without God'. Were your parents atheists?
No, my parents were not believers of anything. They knew someone called, "God" was out there but as my mother put it for so many years, "I'm agnostic. I don't believe there is a god and I don't believe there isn't a god." We didn't talk about God in our home. If I asked about Him, I was brushed off.

[miriam]

I changed from christian too theistic satanist. I fully went into the change with my eye's open,although i feel that Satan did choose me, i just chose not to listen to him for years.
And you listened...????

[Bettenoir]

And you listened...????

Yes i did. i'm agreat beliver that just because you hear something or read something does not mean you HAVE to belive it, but it's good to know the other side of the argument so too speak. It just so happend when it came to Satan that i like what i heard and read. Once i got past all the fake hollywood Satanist's that is.

[miriam]

Yes i did. i'm agreat beliver that just because you hear something or read something does not mean you HAVE to belive it, but it's good to know the other side of the argument so too speak. It just so happend when it came to Satan that i like what i heard and read. Once i got past all the fake hollywood Satanist's that is.
What was it that you liked and heard? The power of Satan? Does he give you the power you feel you lack?

In Christ-
Miriam

[sambo]

Satan and Christ are both figures in Judeo-Christian theology. So a Satanist is very much a part of the Christian faith.

I know of a person who was raised as a Buddhist but when presented with the bible could not understand such passsages as 1 Samuel 15:3 or Numbers 31:17-18 where God commands his people to kill innocents and rape virgins for the sake of keeping the tribe of Isreal pure. I guess alot of it depends on cultural upbringing and standards of morality.

[Sahfed Guru]

I think 90% of people end up believing what their parents or culture believe, because most do not think for them selves and seardh reality.

I am in the 10%, I have never excepted my culture or parents ideas. And I have known my God from baby hood, and yes I remember being a baby.

[Geifodd]

Sambo:

Satan and Christ are both figures in Judeo-Christian theology. So a Satanist is very much a part of the Christian faith.

This kind of overgeneralization is not only an insult to Satanists, but also to Christians.

In order for us to be "part of the Christian faith," we would have to agree with Christian theology. Specifically, that Jesus was the Son of God. Among other things. However, Satanists do not agree with such beliefs. What's more, Satanists do not worship Christ. Therefore, we cannot be called "Christian" if we do not worship Christ.

Satan and Christ are both figures in Judeo-Christian theology, but this does not make Satanism a part of the Christian faith, anymore than the fact of Islam recognizing Christ as a "prophet" makes Islam a part of the Christian faith.

[dead milk man]

I suppose that I didnt really choose, my family always took me to church as a child. My grandparents really took me more than my actual parents, as my father worked alot out of town. I went, and goto a Lutheran church.

[XaositectCrayon]

Or was it a choice? If you'd been raised in a different part of the world, do you think it likely you'd have a different religion?
I was raised catholic and live a deist.... more or less.... I dont believe in a diety per say but a spiritual undercurrent.

[Dave G]

I didn't choose my faith consciously, but I have had doctrines that have been taught me by God, and I suppose that would be conscious decision of free will, I dunno.

[lao tzu]

Did you choose your religion consciously?

Yes. Though I'd say it was more a process of elimination, following an extended survey of comparative religions. Almost ended up a Buddhist, and I suppose I would have become one if I'd been born into that portion of the world. Still might change my path. But definitely, non-theistic works best for me.

The Abrahamic religions are definitely out. Ditto all forms of paganism.

(Sorry, Justin. Hadn't intended that as a direct swipe. It just worked out that way.)

[lao tzu]

Inre: "We ask that nontheist participation respect the theistic views of others and not seek to undermine theism in general, or advocate for nontheism."

The above post is not meant to advocate for nontheism.

[spiritmech]

No and yes.

I didn't choose to be Christian. But I have chosen to become Orthodox on top of that.
sm

[TnilC]

Hello everyone, I am new here and this is my first post.

I would have to say that I consciously chose my religion because I can't be born as an adherent of a religion. I grew up in a Protestant household but religion was never forced on me because my parents believe a person can only be a Protestant if it is the will of God. Three (almost four) years ago I began my quest to find what path is for me. Satanism and the Left Hand Path were my first interests along with Neo-Paganism. None of those worked for me so I eventually abandoned them. Thelema and personal Sanatana Dharma weren't me either. I then got into "Quran Alone" Islam for a few weeks but I couldn't take it anymore because the spirituality was just toomuch for me. I spent quite alot of time thinking for myself and using good ol' empiricism to figure out what path is for me and then I discovered Deism which ended my frustrating journey. I consider myself a Deist and a Universist because they were chosen consciously. I believe Reason and Spirituality go good together and that the Creator intended for us to live our lives based on Reason instead of prophets and holy texts. However, we can learn some things from such texts and the same thing can be done with stories, poetry, music, and such.

[sambo]

Both of my parents were non-religious; however, they were also very moral and upright working-class people.

There were all sorts of books on the bookshelves concerning spirituality/religion from the bible to the koran to the dhammapada to the rig veda. To me, this is real freedom of religion. I wasn't coerced into any one faith.

[slaveofone]

Or was it a choice? If you'd been raised in a different part of the world, do you think it likely you'd have a different religion?

Yes and no. For the first two-thirds of my life, I was a Relativistic Existentialist. Mostly because of the society, world-view, and culture that formed me. And so I suspect most are products of their environment to a greater or lesser degree also. But everyone must decide to remain who they are or to try to grow beyond who they are. Some may chose to remain, some may chose not to. And perhaps at different stages in life, they may change their mind. I've changed drastically in my lifetime. I am now a follower of Yeshua and have completely rejected my former world-view and praxis and replaced it with a new one. And there's no guarantee I won't do so again.

[squall]

I was born and raised in a jewish home. However, my jewishness is/will be probably very different than the one of my parents.

They were religious (more or less) because their parents and grand parents were. The traditions were maybe even more important than the beliefs. I chose judaism because is the only abrahamic religion than makes sense to me. The texts, the history of the jews, the philosophy of life is amazing. I dont do it to please my parents.

I grew up with a lot of christians and muslims around me and their religions are not convincing because they are based on a one-man-revelation. And this revelation, which pretends to complete the old testament, actually dismiss it. I believe that if you are born from a jewish mother, and if you believe in god then you must follow judaism. There is no other paths. But if you were born as a gentile*, I believe that god have set different paths to reach him. Christiannity, Islam, Bahai or Deism may be part of them. In Judaism, only jews have to follow the Torah while gentiles can observe the noachide laws (more or less asserted by Christiannity or Islam).

* English is not my native language, please accept my apologies if this sentence is offending. I dont know how to say it better than that :eek:

[Shadow Phoenix]

I would say the question should read "Do I choose my religion consciously?" The answer is, sometimes, sadly. Sometimes, I do choose to follow Christ and live as I ought. Other times though, I still give in.

I see the evidence for the faith as overwhelming, but I also know that I see through a glass darkly. I know what I believe but I often fail to realize what I believe. In this, I can often choose to go against what Christ would have me to do rather than the way I should act.

Which leads to my belief that all sin is really man claiming to be God. I can only seek grace in forgiveness for my actions implicitly claiming deity.

[NeilUnreal]

Interesting, squall, thanks for sharing that.

Sometimes I think about the opposite: how my own view of Christianity probably more accurately reflects that of my parents and grandparents than it does many of my Christian peers. However, it is similar to your experience in that my parents' and grandparents' Christianity was more a product of thought and experience (e.g. belief) than it was simply following tradition. (Maybe they took the steps you took in the generations before me. :teeth:)

Also like you, I grew up around a lot of other faiths. Its interesting that in both our cases, this has somehow led to an internal authentication of belief rather than an empty following of tradition. Perhaps being sheltered from difference leads one to a false sense of fear that makes tradition the core of faith, rather than vice versa. Tradition is like salt: great for preserving a faith, but the not life-sustaining staple that faith itself should be.

(And for what it's worth, your written English is probably better that 90% of the writing of native speakers. :lol:)

-Neil

[squall]

Thanks Neil ! :-)

The good thing about Christianity is that your parents dont need to be christians. :teeth: In order to spread the belief in god, a religion like this is necessary. Converting to judaism is very hard and who dreams to be jewish anyway ? With all the anti-semitism, it would be kinda "masochist" :lol:

The Torah clearly says that God is the God of every human and the Talmud even say that prophets exist in other [=non-jewish] communities and in every languages. Therefore Jesus as a prophet (but not as Messiah) is highly probable.

[lilpixieofterror]

Or was it a choice? If you'd been raised in a different part of the world, do you think it likely you'd have a different religion?

I really do not get into 'what if questions'. What if frogs had wings? Wouldn't have to jump now would they? I don't see 'what if' as a valid form of argument at all.

Crystal

[Gaytheist]

I really do not get into 'what if questions'. What if frogs had wings? Wouldn't have to jump now would they? I don't see 'what if' as a valid form of argument at all.

Crystal
Possibly the title of the thread doesn't convey the OP that well. I think the post-er is asking: if you were born in Pakistan, do you think you would be Muslim? I think the OP is trying to get at the connection between being born into a specific religious environment, raised by members of that religion, taught that religion from a young age, and eventually believing that religion as an adult. I think it hints at the possibility that belief may often be more a result of geographical happenstance than logic or evidence.

[lilpixieofterror]

Possibly the title of the thread doesn't convey the OP that well. I think the post-er is asking: if you were born in Pakistan, do you think you would be Muslim? I think the OP is trying to get at the connection between being born into a specific religious environment, raised by members of that religion, taught that religion from a young age, and eventually believing that religion as an adult. I think it hints at the possibility that belief may often be more a result of geographical happenstance than logic or evidence.

I was agnostic for quite a number of years. I really don't see 'what if' questions as valid, because they are not all that specific or make up assumptions.

Terror

[Tickle Me Goody]

Or was it a choice? If you'd been raised in a different part of the world, do you think it likely you'd have a different religion?

In my case it was a choice and it happened after several years of searching (while being mostly agnostic).

However, all that any of us know is what has happened. It is not possible to guess what might have happened given a different past.

Offhand, I think that I would have become a skeptic in any country. what would then follow?

:shrug:

[happygolucky]

Or was it a choice? If you'd been raised in a different part of the world, do you think it likely you'd have a different religion?


Depends on whether you believe in free will or not. That is the underlying question.

If I lived in a different part of the world I wouldn't be who I am.

However, I am always reminded of this verse:

Romans 2:13-15

13For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.)

[shadowmaster]

Or was it a choice? If you'd been raised in a different part of the world, do you think it likely you'd have a different religion?

One never knows what might have been -- only what is.

What kind of a "male" calls himself "cavegirl"?

Or should the shadowmaster even dare to ask?

[shunyadragon]

I was agnostic for quite a number of years. I really don't see 'what if' questions as valid, because they are not all that specific or make up assumptions.

Terror

Many people go through these stages growing up and as an adult. the point is you were raised in a Christian environment and culture and remained so like most.

[Seri]

One never knows what might have been -- only what is.

What kind of a "male" calls himself "cavegirl"?

Or should the shadowmaster even dare to ask?

Great necro work, shadowmaster. Two years is better than I'd do.

To answer the original question: My faith chose me, despite influences from culture. It is as natural to me as breathing.

[ravenlorre]

I choose to join the Roman Catholic Church as an adult, after spending many happy and productive years as a member of a Protestant Church. So, yes, I consciously chose my religion.

blessings

[shunyadragon]

I choose to join the Roman Catholic Church as an adult, after spending many happy and productive years as a member of a Protestant Church. So, yes, I consciously chose my religion.

blessings

The Protestants and the Roman Church is two sides of one coin. You were raised in a Christian culture, and went to store and picked the shoes that were comfortable.

[ravenlorre]

Well, I agree that Catholicism and Protestantism are similar (not all Christians agree) in their doctrines, but the culture is very different, which made thing quite uncomfortable.

For the record, I wasn't raised in any church - I joined a conservative Protestant church when I was a teenager; but I see your point - the US doesn't persecute Protestant Churches and it is easy to see why I joined a Protestant Church rather than becoming Hindu, for example.

blessings

[shunyadragon]

Well, I agree that Catholicism and Protestantism are similar (not all Christians agree) in their doctrines, but the culture is very different, which made thing quite uncomfortable.

For the record, I wasn't raised in any church - I joined a conservative Protestant church when I was a teenager; but I see your point - the US doesn't persecute Protestant Churches and it is easy to see why I joined a Protestant Church rather than becoming Hindu, for example.

blessings

I was basically raised in the Roman Church (partly in Central and South America, which was a very much an awakening experience.), but exposed to Protestant churches in various ways. I do not consider them culturally significantly different. In fact it is more by degree and not substance. Before the 20th century changing churches was not common and culturally forbidden, but in the 20th and 21st centuries, switching churches has become common, and church shopping a commonly accepted way to go.

I do not think people understand cultural conditioning in their environment as it impacts their decision making process, and life choices. I believe there is good evidence that these factors dominate ones choices concerning choice of religion.

[PolarBeer]

I'd say I consciously chose my religion. I was raised as an Anglican, and to be honest, hadn't really put much thought into the whole thing until I was about fourteen. Now this is going to sound silly, but I was in church one Sunday morning (I was an altar boy), when suddenly I noticed that one of the lines in a prayer was also a line used a lot in a sci-fi book I had read recently. That in itself wasn't a big deal, but suddenly I started paying attention to what I was saying, and concluded rather quickly that I wasn't too impressed with the words I had been parroting all those years. This was added on to your standard teenage angst, and dissatisfaction with the realisation that there was plenty of hypocrisy in the church - I suppose I was young, and didn't entirely appreciate that this was a failing of people, rather than religion.

So anyway, after some thought, I lapsed into agnosticism, and after a few university philosophy classes, became an atheist.

One thing I was still conscious of at the time was that being an atheist, it felt like something was missing. As many have realised, atheism makes sense to atheists, but atheism doesn't really provide the conform of a religion that offers all the answers. That said, I couldn't really convince myself to start believing in God again, even though I tried. I dabbled in various religions for a time, which I dismissed for similar reasons - paganism in various forms, for example.

So finally, I stumbled onto a book on Buddhism, and started getting very interested in Zen Buddhism in particular. I liked the fact that it placed little emphasis on theoretical knowledge and texts, and a lot of emphasis on daily life and experiences. So, I've been working on Zen Buddhism since then, and so far so good. As such, yes, I'd say I consciously chose my faith, if you can call it a faith.


Hmm, I've rambled on a bit here.. Sorry about that! :ahem:

[shunyadragon]

Thanks Neil ! :-)

The good thing about Christianity is that your parents dont need to be christians. :teeth: In order to spread the belief in god, a religion like this is necessary. Converting to judaism is very hard and who dreams to be jewish anyway ? With all the anti-semitism, it would be kinda "masochist" :lol:

The Torah clearly says that God is the God of every human and the Talmud even say that prophets exist in other [=non-jewish] communities and in every languages. Therefore Jesus as a prophet (but not as Messiah) is highly probable.

This is more like the Baha'i world view of God's relationship with humanity, but in the Baha'j view the messiah is universal with Revelation to ALL of humanity from the enlightened one Buddha, to the annointed one, Christ, to the Lord of Native American.

Some may acknowledge to a lesser extent god's relationship to other peoples of the world, but I prefer a more universal equal view of this relationship. People tend to make choices within their cultural paradigm, and in turn view the rest of the world in a biased and limited view.

[lilpixieofterror]

Many people go through these stages growing up and as an adult. the point is you were raised in a Christian environment and culture and remained so like most.

My parents were not very religious when I was growing up. Besides, Christians also live in the Middle East however; like I said before, what if games are not valid arguments.

[shunyadragon]

My parents were not very religious when I was growing up. Besides, Christians also live in the Middle East however; like I said before, what if games are not valid arguments.

No games.

You were still raised within the Christian culture as were by far most Chrsitians in the Middle East. There are conversions that may involve free will, but given the evidence it represents a very small minority.

[ravenlorre]

Well, it sounds like you are arguing for the idea that people do not choose their religion - we are determined by our environment. So how does that explain how you became Baha'i? Seems to me that if you are correct about your view of social conditioning, you'd have no other choice than the Catholic/Protestant church (since they are the same thing :)

[Messor Mortis]

i believe i was chosen and my free will was not involved in my choice of religion.

[shunyadragon]

Well, it sounds like you are arguing for the idea that people do not choose their religion - we are determined by our environment. So how does that explain how you became Baha'i? Seems to me that if you are correct about your view of social conditioning, you'd have no other choice than the Catholic/Protestant church (since they are the same thing :)

The following is what i last posted read carefully.

You were still raised within the Christian culture as were by far most Christians in the Middle East. There are conversions that may involve free will, but given the evidence it represents a very small minority.

I believe free will is more limited than Christian theology requires. I believe in a concept called 'potential free will,' which proposes that the majority if not almost all of human decisions are determined by evironmental, genetic and cultural factors I call attractors in a chaos model. What happens is by far most decisions are within a limited number of possible choices limited by the factors above. 'Potential Free Will' is the edge where people can potentially make decisions beyond these limits, or 'out of the box' as I call it.

I do not know positively if my choice of belief was totally a free will decision. In we do not know if any decision is predetermined or not.

[shadowmaster]

What a sad existence.

[shunyadragon]

i believe i was chosen and my free will was not involved in my choice of religion.

Why ar some chosen and some not? This does not sound very benevolent towards the whole of humanity, which God created, and therefore responsible for Creation.

[PolarBeer]

I believe in a concept called 'potential free will,' which proposes that the majority if not almost all of human decisions are determined by evironmental, genetic and cultural factors I call attractors in a chaos model. What happens is by far most decisions are within a limited number of possible choices limited by the factors above. 'Potential Free Will' is the edge where people can potentially make decisions beyond these limits, or 'out of the box' as I call it.
Just to make sure I understand what you're saying, and perhaps to take it a bit further; If choices are a function of genetics, environmental factors, and cultural factors, what would you say is making the decisions? If you take the notion of a soul out of the equation, would you say that all decisions (and indeed all actions) are a function of external inputs to little more than an incredibly complex computer (your nervous system)?

One could put forward the idea that really, with this being the case, there is no concept of consciousness, as our personalities, decision making processes, and indeed everything about us is really a function of external inputs and chemical reactions.

Taking this a step further again, would you say that given sufficient knowledge and computational power, one could therefore replicate a person's "personality" by replicating the chemical reactions and internal structures of a person's nervous system?

I'm not accusing here - I'm just curious. I certainly have some friends who believe exactly what I've just set out above, but I'm not sure if that's what you're saying.

[shunyadragon]

Just to make sure I understand what you're saying, and perhaps to take it a bit further; If choices are a function of genetics, environmental factors, and cultural factors, what would you say is making the decisions? If you take the notion of a soul out of the equation, would you say that all decisions (and indeed all actions) are a function of external inputs to little more than an incredibly complex computer (your nervous system)?

One could put forward the idea that really, with this being the case, there is no concept of consciousness, as our personalities, decision making processes, and indeed everything about us is really a function of external inputs and chemical reactions.

Taking this a step further again, would you say that given sufficient knowledge and computational power, one could therefore replicate a person's "personality" by replicating the chemical reactions and internal structures of a person's nervous system?

I'm not accusing here - I'm just curious. I certainly have some friends who believe exactly what I've just set out above, but I'm not sure if that's what you're saying.

Read what I said carefully, I do not believe that we are not just mechanistic computers, but yes our physical nature carries a large weight of determinism. I describe what I call 'potential free will.' If we were totally predetermined mechanistically, we could never get 'out of the box,' and exercise 'potential free will.'

I do not believe it is so, but it is possible that we are predetermined on a highly complex biologic mechanistic level, because a complex fractal relationship could possibly describe our decision making process and general thinking.

[rizdek]

Depends what you mean by choice. If choice means I sat down one day, snapped my fingers and say "you know what, I think I'm gonna be a Christian now", then no. I became a Christian because I realized that in my worst times God was there.

I did grow up in a Christian house but the religious lessons learned there had 0 bearing on my reconversion.


You may be underestimating the strong influence such lessons might have on a child. Consider how many children who are told there is a santa claus and never told (by their parents) that there isn't one. I have seen very old children clinging tenaciously to that belief in the face of obvious contrary information. They really do believe it. And that is for a fat jolly guy riding a sleigh pulled by flying reindeer that is supposed to come on Christmas Eve and deliver presents to all children around the world. So how much harder for someone to break the teaching of youth for a much less tangible diety and associated doctrine?

[rizdek]

Taking this a step further again, would you say that given sufficient knowledge and computational power, one could therefore replicate a person's "personality" by replicating the chemical reactions and internal structures of a person's nervous system?


In my opinion, no, quantum mechanics would prevent this. So far there seems to be no way to duplicate the apparent randomness quantum mechanics. I don't know what this says about our ability to "choose" what we believe, but our thought processes do not sem to be predictable by computation.

[shunyadragon]

In my opinion, no, quantum mechanics would prevent this. So far there seems to be no way to duplicate the apparent randomness quantum mechanics. I don't know what this says about our ability to "choose" what we believe, but our thought processes do not seem to be predictable by computation.

I do not agree that the randomness of quantum mechanics prevents anything. It is an observed property of the fundamental properties of matter that reflects what we could call true randomness, but it has not been conclusively observed in the macro world. On the macro level of our lives we see fractal non-linear relationships that used to be called random, now called 'Chaos'. There is indeed an element of predictability in our choices, based on these models and neurological and behavior research. An example is human choices in stock and commodity market sales show these relationships.

[rizdek]

I do not agree that the randomness of quantum mechanics prevents anything. It is an observed property of the fundamental properties of matter that reflects what we could call true randomness, but it has not been conclusively observed in the macro world. On the macro level of our lives we see fractal non-linear relationships that used to be called random, now called 'Chaos'. There is indeed an element of predictability in our choices, based on these models and neurological and behavior research. An example is human choices in stock and commodity market sales show these relationships.

Who said anything about randomness?

[shunyadragon]

Who said anything about randomness?

You whether you call it randomness or apparent randomness, you said,

In my opinion, no, quantum mechanics would prevent this.

Again the type of apparent randomness observed in quantum mechanics is not observed in the macro world of behavior. The apparent randomness of quantum mechanics does not prevent anything.

[rizdek]

Again the type of apparent randomness observed in quantum mechanics is not observed in the macro world of behavior. The apparent randomness of quantum mechanics does not prevent anything.

Our behaviors are a series of actions. Actions are triggered by thoughts/nerve impulses. I don't know at what "world level" (to use your term) the "stimulus" comes from that determines when a given nerve impulse will "fire" to trigger an action, but I believe it occurs at the quantum level. And therefore, I believe a computer could not be programmed to duplicate such a process. Do you disagree and think it would be possible to build a program that would duplicate human/animal behavior. I certainly agree that eventually someone could write a randomizing algorithm that would simulate the quantam level influence of animal behavior, but it would not duplicate it.

I am not saying human behavior is "random." Certainly the things you mentioned as being the basis for a majority of our decisions, "evironmental, genetic and cultural factors" are what I agree with.

What do you mean when you refer to those factors as "attractors in a chaos model?"

[shunyadragon]

Our behaviors are a series of actions. Actions are triggered by thoughts/nerve impulses. I don't know at what "world level" (to use your term) the "stimulus" comes from that determines when a given nerve impulse will "fire" to trigger an action, but I believe it occurs at the quantum level. And therefore, I believe a computer could not be programmed to duplicate such a process. Do you disagree and think it would be possible to build a program that would duplicate human/animal behavior. I certainly agree that eventually someone could write a randomizing algorithm that would simulate the quantam level influence of animal behavior, but it would not duplicate it.

I am not saying human behavior is "random." Certainly the things you mentioned as being the basis for a majority of our decisions, "evironmental, genetic and cultural factors" are what I agree with.

No, nerve pulses would not likely follow quantum randomness, but would follow a 'chaos' pattern. Yes, computers are beginning to model the the nervous system on simple levels. I believe the quantum level randomness can also be modeled.

What do you mean when you refer to those factors as "attractors in a chaos model?"

First you need to understand non-linear mathematics, and fractal geometry commonly called 'chaos.' A good primer is 'Chaos' by James Glick.


Linear systems (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linear_system) are never chaotic; for a dynamical system to display chaotic behaviour it has to be nonlinear (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonlinearity). Also, by the Poincaré–Bendixson theorem (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poincar%C3%A9%E2%80%93Bendixson_theorem), a continuous (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuous) dynamical system on the plane (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plane_%28mathematics%29) cannot be chaotic; among continuous systems only those whose phase space is non-planar (having dimension (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dimension) at least three, or with a non-Euclidean geometry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-Euclidean_geometry)) can exhibit chaotic behaviour. However, a discrete (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discrete_time) dynamical system (such as the logistic map (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logistic_map)) can exhibit chaotic behaviour in a one-dimensional or two-dimensional phase space.

Attractors a little more difficult to understand, but here goes . . .



Some dynamical systems are chaotic everywhere (see e.g. Anosov diffeomorphisms (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anosov_diffeomorphism)) but in many cases chaotic behaviour is found only in a subset of phase space. The cases of most interest arise when the chaotic behaviour takes place on an attractor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attractor), since then a large set of initial conditions will lead to orbits that converge to this chaotic region. An easy way to visualize a chaotic attractor is to start with a point in the basin of attraction (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basin_of_attraction) of the attractor, and then simply plot its subsequent orbit. Because of the topological transitivity condition, this is likely to produce a picture of the entire final attractor. For instance, in a system describing a pendulum, the phase space might be two-dimensional, consisting of information about position and velocity. One might plot the position of a pendulum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pendulum) against its velocity. A pendulum at rest will be plotted as a point, and one in periodic motion will be plotted as a simple closed curve. When such a plot forms a closed curve, the curve is called an orbit (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orbit_%28mathematics%29). Our pendulum has an infinite number of such orbits, forming a pencil (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pencil_%28mathematics%29) of nested ellipses about the origin.

Attractors are basically limiting points that limit and control the variability of chaos models.





The chaos model of variability in natural systems can be illustrated in examples like, no two clouds are ever exactly alike, but all clouds look like clouds. This true for snow flakes, leaves on a tree, fingerprints or tiger strips. All represent fractal geometric patterns. At the macro level variability pretty much follows this model