Have you ever been to an Orthodox service?

[tizzidale]

Huh? Huh? Huh?

Just trying to bring some life to the Ecclesiology forum,

rusty

[bar Jonah]

I'm not Jewish, so I'm afraid I have little interest in going to a church that preaches Israel's currently defunct gospel. Bit it might be an interesting experience, sometime. Kind of like going to the Mormon temple in Salt Lake City, which is where my ministry's founder is going this weekend. An educational experience.

[Alden]

Um...Orthodox Christian service.

[spiritmech]

I'm going this Saturday evening and Sunday morning, Lord willing.
sm

[Bill the Cat]

Huh? Huh? Huh?

Just trying to bring some life to the Ecclesiology forum,

rusty

Hey tizz,

How different is it from a traditional Roman Catholic mass? I attended one in Stuttgart that was in Latin when I was still Catholic.

[tizzidale]

I've never been to a traditional Roman Catholic mass, so I haven't a clue. I have been to a daily mass, and it's quite different from the Divine Liturgy.

[Anoetos]

Yes, I go occasionally to St. Sabbas the Pre-Sanctified Orthodox Monastery (ROCOR).

Old Calendar, English Liturgy...

It's nice, if a bit, um...overwrought....

[semmie]

never been. plan to. hope to. will definitely be sharing my thoughts (and questions) when i have done so.

[TuckEverlasting]

I don't even know where the closest Orthodox church is! :nsm:

[Jawa Man]

There are none in Canada because it is a smelly place!

[tizzidale]

To find the nearest Orthodox Church: www.orthodoxyinamerica.com

rusty

[TuckEverlasting]

There are none in Canada because it is a smelly place!

Great point, if I've ever heard one. :yes:

To find the nearest Orthodox Church

Apparently there's one in my province.

[tizzidale]

For Canada: http://www.orthodoxyinamerica.com/sr/locator.php?cntry=CAN

[Palinator]

I would like to.

[furay]

Yep.

[Jawa Man]

I go to it occassionally.

[furay]

Btw, how long has that Orthodoxy in America site been around? Very clean design to it. I LOVE the maps.

[Maxentius]

Hey Rusty,

Huh? Huh? Huh?

Just trying to bring some life to the Ecclesiology forum,

rusty

I have been to several liturgies. ISTM that the liturgy is orthodox (note small "o"), and aside from the invocation of saints, a Lutheran would not have too much trouble fitting in. :smile:

It is a bit "busy" though, and it seems the congregation is more of a spectator than a participant--people having side bar conversations or lighting candles for instance. I am sure this varies from church to church.

One thing that struck me was a prayer for the "God fearing" president--not the Christian president, or just the president. This is consistent with Orthodox theology as fas as I can tell.

A funny aside, one time the priest wanted to do a "little extra thanksgiving liturgy" right after the service. One and a half hours later it was over. :hehe:

I was interested to see similarities between the Orthodox liturgy and the "Red Hymnal" liturgy used at my church.

[George Blaisdell]

Huh? Huh? Huh?

Just trying to bring some life to the Ecclesiology forum,

rusty

Set the alarm for 3:30AM this morning, and awoke at 3:09, and got ready, showered and dressed, and filled the car with gas, and headed for Yakima some 65 miles away for the Feast of the Assumption Liturgy starting at 5:30AM [preparation prayers], and the liturgy at 6. Did the morning prayers in the car driving there...

AWESOME way to start the day!

Arsenios

[furay]

Set the alarm for 3:30AM this morning, and awoke at 3:09, and got ready, showered and dressed, and filled the car with gas, and headed for Yakima some 65 miles away for the Feast of the Assumption Liturgy starting at 5:30AM [preparation prayers], and the liturgy at 6. Did the morning prayers in the car driving there...

AWESOME way to start the day!

Arsenios

:hug:

[Dave G]

I went to a service in Austin...don't remember which Orthodox church it was. The only thing I do remember is the priest walking around the pews and then back up the middle aisle, and as he did so a man reached out and touched his robe. That was something I've never seen in any other church or denomination.

[markporter]

Nope, never been to one. There's a church just round the corner from me, I know that. Never seen it though.

[Rubens]

Set the alarm for 3:30AM this morning, and awoke at 3:09, and got ready, showered and dressed, and filled the car with gas, and headed for Yakima some 65 miles away for the Feast of the Assumption Liturgy starting at 5:30AM [preparation prayers], and the liturgy at 6. Did the morning prayers in the car driving there...

AWESOME way to start the day!

Arsenios

I knew we would hear from you George! I am quite glad we have you to remind us of that the glory in worshipping God comes in all forms.

Up until listening to George's comments my attitudes towards orthodoxy were limited by only having attentded a Greek Orthodox Wedding once.

I thought they were speaking in tongues and some guy in a frock had a handbag that was on fire, so I assumed they were a bunch of weird fundys :lol: .

George, your posts on this topic continue to break through some of those barriers between modern/ non-denominational services and the oft-maligned traditional types. It's a blessing. Keep it up.

I worship (very poorly) at a non-denom church. You know where they sing modern songs and despite being Australian, seem to break into American accents the moment they start singing (NOT THAT there's anything wrong with American accents....um, I meant, it just sounds pretentious when you're Aussie, is all!) and I sometimes miss those majestic, heavenly choral sounds that can only be found at Orthodox services...

[tizzidale]

It is a bit "busy" though, and it seems the congregation is more of a spectator than a participant--people having side bar conversations or lighting candles for instance. I am sure this varies from church to church.

My parish doesn't do a lot of the side-conversations thing. It's very reverant. I've only been to two other churches and they were the same. Very different than the churches I was used to - where reverence in the church seems to have become passé. There is a lot of walking around, lighting candles, etc., but this is participation. We sing the hymns, we respond to the prayers, we sing the Creed, we sing the Lord's Prayer, we sing the Beatitudes. I've never participated in a service the way I do in an Orthodox service - and this coming from a former Pentecostal of all things, where I always heard "Pentecost means participate!" There's something wonderful about the beauty of Orthodoxy and I knew it from the beginning.

[Jezz]

Set the alarm for 3:30AM this morning, and awoke at 3:09, and got ready, showered and dressed, and filled the car with gas, and headed for Yakima some 65 miles away for the Feast of the Assumption Liturgy starting at 5:30AM [preparation prayers], and the liturgy at 6. Did the morning prayers in the car driving there...
You do morning prayers in the car? I wish I'd thought of that. What an easy way to get 10 minutes extra sleep! :smile:

My worship week currently consists of the following:
-Orthodox Vespers (in English) at 6:00 on Saturday night at a church under the jurisdiction of Constantinople.
-Lutheran service at 9:30 on Sunday morning.
-Straight from Lutheran service to the Orthodox one (Antiochian jurisdiction, mainly in Arabic). I usually get there about 11:00, which is roughly when Matins finishes and the Divine Liturgy starts. *
-Tuesday chapel at the Lutheran seminary.

There are often Orthodox evening services during the week for special occasions, and I like to go those too. During Lent I found myself going to evening Compline services on Wednesday, Thursday and Friday - in addition to the above. Last night I went to a liturgy celebrating the ascension of our Lord.

I find that I don't enjoy the Lutheran services as much as I do the Orthodox. I mainly go there to catch up with people I know these days. Sometimes I skip it and just go to Orthodox Matins, which starts at 10:30 (which is pretty late in the morning for an Orthodox Church!) Especially if I've had a late night the night before... :smile: (Up too late posting on TWeb, for example...)

* A note for those who aren't aware: an Orthodox service is actually three different services immediately after each other: Matins, the Service of the Word and the Service of the Eucharist (in that order). The first one is a bunch of prayers and hymns. The second is a couple of Bible readings (the first a non-Gospel NT (usually a Pauline Epistle), the second a Gospel reading), followed by a brief sermon. The third service is the climax (the other services being but a preparation for this), where the Eucharist is celebrated. Once upon a time, only the Orthodox were allowed to be present for the last service - the catechumens and visitors had to leave when the Service of the Word finished (eg, see in St Justin Martyr's apology). All three services together takes just under 2 hours.

[Jezz]

I went to a service in Austin...don't remember which Orthodox church it was. The only thing I do remember is the priest walking around the pews and then back up the middle aisle, and as he did so a man reached out and touched his robe. That was something I've never seen in any other church or denomination.
In the worshipping assembly (note: assembly = literal translation of Greek "ekklesia" = church), the bishop is the icon of Christ, and the priests that serve under him are icons of the apostles. Orthodox faithful will sometimes reach out and touch the priest's/bishop's robe, in the same way that the woman with the flow of blood reached out to touch Christ's gown. Or similar to how Acts tells us that even items that St Paul had touched were passed around and treasured, and people were healed by their very touch.

It is simple acts of faith like this which, in my opinion, shows the deep appreciation for the spiritual in the physical (not separate from it) in Orthodoxy - something which is thoroughly Biblical and rooted in the Jewish worldview. I think that this is in stark contrast to Western theology, which (especially in Evangelical Protestantism) tries to separate the spiritual from the physical - leaning away from the Biblical worldview and towards a Platonic one.

[nomad]

we attended an orthodox church for a couple of months. it was a calvary chapel whose pastor and a lot of the church merged with a small local orthodox church and became their priest. great experience, i loved it, my wife was a little too nonplussed by it so we left...

[keith]

We were married in a Greek Orthodox Church and had our children baptised in our local Greek church. I found the baptisms particularly interesting - the richness of the liturgy and symbolism seemed to have more depth than the simplified version we use in the Anglican church.

Just as an aside I have been to Greek churches, where there was lots of congregational activity and chatting, Russian ones which were a little more solemn and intense and an Anglo congregation near my brothers house which is part of the Antiochene Patriarchate. It was still Orthodox but somehow very English, (they were all ex-Anglicans). Same liturgy, different flavours.

Orthodoxy does seem to have an ability to take on something of the character of the culture it finds itself in while retaining a distinctive identity. I am curious to attend an American Orthodox church and see if it too has something American about it (whatever that might mean).

[Maxentius]

Hello Rusty,

My parish doesn't do a lot of the side-conversations thing. It's very reverant. I've only been to two other churches and they were the same. Very different than the churches I was used to - where reverence in the church seems to have become passé.

As I said, I assume this varies from parish to parish. In a way there are two services going on at the same time--sometimes the priest is behind the doors doing one thing and the congregation is doing another.

There is a lot of walking around, lighting candles, etc., but this is participation. We sing the hymns, we respond to the prayers, we sing the Creed, we sing the Lord's Prayer, we sing the Beatitudes. I've never participated in a service the way I do in an Orthodox service - and this coming from a former Pentecostal of all things, where I always heard "Pentecost means participate!" There's something wonderful about the beauty of Orthodoxy and I knew it from the beginning.

Is your Pentacostal church the same church where "reverence" was practiced? :hehe: More seriously, it seems that there is a sort of "pre-service" when the people light candles etc.

BTW, I am not critiquing the liturgy, just giving my personal observations.

[George Blaisdell]

You do morning prayers in the car? I wish I'd thought of that. What an easy way to get 10 minutes extra sleep! :smile:


Sleep? What? Are you trying to expand my vocabulary?

Actually, I have been struggling with sleep - Struggling to get up at 6AM - That 3:30 thing had me worried - So I just asked God, as I drifted off, if He would help me make sure I got up in time, and I woke up refreshed out of a corny dream 21 minutes early...

The morning prayers can be said in the car ok, as can small compline, if you have enough RAM... And you cannot do the morning gospel reading, not the Psalms in the evening, nor the epistles, for that would require you to read. So it takes about 15 minutes to do the basic [memorizable] Morning prayers... Also, I do the private intercessory prayers in the AM, just after the general intercession [Forgive them that hate us and do us wrong, O Lord, and do good unto ...etc.] and I really do need a list for those... You can also memorize the 6th hour fairly easily, so that you have morning, noon and evening prayers - And if the Yuri Nation demon wakes you up in the wee [doubled] hours, you can also do some midnight prayers. Plus the Jesus prayer as you drift off to sleep, and whenever you are driving, and whenever you remember to do it when doing something repetetive...

There is nothing more important to a Christian Life that the expanding aegis of prayer... As Paul enjoins us all: "Be praying without ceasing..."


My worship week currently consists of the following:
-Orthodox Vespers (in English) at 6:00 on Saturday night at a church under the jurisdiction of Constantinople.
-Lutheran service at 9:30 on Sunday morning.
-Straight from Lutheran service to the Orthodox one (Antiochian jurisdiction, mainly in Arabic). I usually get there about 11:00, which is roughly when Matins finishes and the Divine Liturgy starts. *
-Tuesday chapel at the Lutheran seminary.

Good grief! Well, perhaps you have more time - I work two jobs... I could not divide my time like that between two churches. Are you a catechumen yet? That normally puts an end to going outside Orthodoxy for Church things...

[QUOTE]
There are often Orthodox evening services during the week for special occasions, and I like to go those too. During Lent I found myself going to evening Compline services on Wednesday, Thursday and Friday - in addition to the above. Last night I went to a liturgy celebrating the ascension of our Lord.


Going to Vespers every night, and Orthros [Matins] in the morning, is a great blessing, along with weekday liturgies interspersed... There is always more that one can do to become a better Christian in an Orthodox Church in terms of Holy Services, prayers of the Church, and on and on... It ain't no Sunday morning social hour until after the Liturgy, and then it is not about dressing up and impressing your pals, but simply one of taking food with the faithful in the Communion of Love that a parish is...


I find that I don't enjoy the Lutheran services as much as I do the Orthodox. I mainly go there to catch up with people I know these days. Sometimes I skip it and just go to Orthodox Matins, which starts at 10:30 (which is pretty late in the morning for an Orthodox Church!) Especially if I've had a late night the night before... :smile: (Up too late posting on TWeb, for example...)


Yup - The time is soon coming, my dear friend, when attendance at any non-Orthodox service is almost painful...


* A note for those who aren't aware: an Orthodox service is actually three different services immediately after each other: Matins, the Service of the Word and the Service of the Eucharist (in that order). The first one is a bunch of prayers and hymns. The second is a couple of Bible readings (the first a non-Gospel NT (usually a Pauline Epistle), the second a Gospel reading), followed by a brief sermon. The third service is the climax (the other services being but a preparation for this), where the Eucharist is celebrated. Once upon a time, only the Orthodox were allowed to be present for the last service - the catechumens and visitors had to leave when the Service of the Word finished (eg, see in St Justin Martyr's apology). All three services together takes just under 2 hours.


We call them Orthros, the Liturgy of the Catechumens, and the Liturgy of the Faithful... Last minute types need to get there before the end of the Homily that separates the two liturgies... And there is about an hour of prayer preparation [eve and AM], plus fasting from supper the night before, for one to be receiving Communion...

It is an AWESOME faith!

Arsenios

[Palinator]

we attended an orthodox church for a couple of months. it was a calvary chapel whose pastor and a lot of the church merged with a small local orthodox church and became their priest. great experience, i loved it, my wife was a little too nonplussed by it so we left...
You saying that part of Calvary Chapel merged with an Orthodox church and the Calvary pastor became the preist?

P.S. Going to nondenominational churches for several years now, I miss the hymns and liturgy of my old Lutheran church and I never realized until after I stopped going there how much of the liturgy was quoting the Bible.

[keith]

You saying that part of Calvary Chapel merged with an Orthodox church and the Calvary pastor became the preist?

P.S. Going to nondenominational churches for several years now, I miss the hymns and liturgy of my old Lutheran church and I never realized until after I stopped going there how much of the liturgy was quoting the Bible.

Hmm. I think liturgy is often misunderstood in nondenominational churches - you know the line about vain repetitions and so on. I go to a low church Anglican church and even there I do sometimes miss the traditional Prayer Book service and the classic hymns. Maybe we could have a thread about liturgy? if someone starts one I will contribute and promise to be nice.

[Amazing Rando]

The morning prayers can be said in the car ok, as can small compline, if you have enough RAM... And you cannot do the morning gospel reading, not the Psalms in the evening, nor the epistles, for that would require you to read.

I've got a solution to that conundrum- today as I was on my way over to the library, I took out a large wallet I've got that contains the entire Bible, fully dramatized, on a series of CDs and listened to Titus, Philemon, and the first half of Hebrews in the car ride. It's excellent!

[spiritmech]

You saying that part of Calvary Chapel merged with an Orthodox church and the Calvary pastor became the preist?

P.S. Going to nondenominational churches for several years now, I miss the hymns and liturgy of my old Lutheran church and I never realized until after I stopped going there how much of the liturgy was quoting the Bible.

Yeah I find I really enjoy that part. The Scriptures ought to be at the center of the Liturgy.
sm

[nomad]

You saying that part of Calvary Chapel merged with an Orthodox church and the Calvary pastor became the preist?


sorry, forgot about this thread. Yep, the pastor of the Calvary Chapel became an Orthodox priest, and most of the church came with him. There are some 'cradle' orthodox in the church too, so it's a good mix. St. Stephen's in Campbell, CA.


P.S. Going to nondenominational churches for several years now, I miss the hymns and liturgy of my old Lutheran church and I never realized until after I stopped going there how much of the liturgy was quoting the Bible.

first time I noticed this (and this was after i'd been going to an anglican church for a couple months) was in an editorial that griped about many non-liturgical churches who don't consider catholics, orthodox, etc. christians because they aren't 'bible-based' but have 'traditions'; but when you look at the services, you hear a lot more scripture, from the bible, in the liturgical churches than the non-liturgical churches on average :) the anglican church did 4 different readings every week: OT, psalms, gospel, and epistle.

[spiritmech]

sorry, forgot about this thread. Yep, the pastor of the Calvary Chapel became an Orthodox priest, and most of the church came with him. There are some 'cradle' orthodox in the church too, so it's a good mix. St. Stephen's in Campbell, CA.



first time I noticed this (and this was after i'd been going to an anglican church for a couple months) was in an editorial that griped about many non-liturgical churches who don't consider catholics, orthodox, etc. christians because they aren't 'bible-based' but have 'traditions'; but when you look at the services, you hear a lot more scripture, from the bible, in the liturgical churches than the non-liturgical churches on average :) the anglican church did 4 different readings every week: OT, psalms, gospel, and epistle.

I think a service should have more than just 4 readings. :) The liturgy should be drenched in scripture. ;)
sm

[furay]

I think a service should have more than just 4 readings. :) The liturgy should be drenched in scripture. ;)
sm

It is sometimes thought that Orthodox attach less importance than western Christians to the Bible. Yet in fact Holy Scripture is read constantly at Orthodox services: during the course of Matins and Vespers the entire Psalter is recited each week, and in Lent twice a week...Old Testament lessons (usually three in number) occur at Vespers on the eves of many feasts; the reading of the Gospel forms the climax of Matins on Sundays and feasts; at the Liturgy a special Epistle and Gospel are assigned for each day of the year, so that the whole New Testament (except the Revelation of Saint John) is read at the Eucharist. The Nunc Dimittis is used at Vespers; Old Testament canticles, with the Magnifcat and Benedictus, are sung at Matins; the Lord’s Prayer is read at every service. Besides these specific extracts from Scripture, the whole text of each service is shot through with Biblical language, and it has been calculated that the Liturgy contains 98 quotations from the Old Testament and 114 from the New (P. Evdokimov, L’Orthodoxie, p. 241, note 96).

[Jezz]

Yeah I find I really enjoy that part. The Scriptures ought to be at the center of the Liturgy.
sm
I disagree slightly. The Eucharist ought to be at the centre of the liturgy.

[spiritmech]

I disagree slightly. The Eucharist ought to be at the centre of the liturgy.

Point taken.
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