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Cow Poke
02-09-2015, 12:30 PM
I used to be pretty black-n-white about this. I would say "there are only two kinds of people in the world - saved and lost" or "it's like being pregnant - you either are or you're not". An absolute binary dichotomy.

I heard Paul Little though propose another possibility -- "those who are still on the way". His point was that this gives an opportunity, when witnessing, to leave the door open to somebody who hasn't accepted Christ, but may be contemplating it. Instead of "pigeonholing" them into a "saved or lost" category, show them that it's a journey, and help them to figure out where they are on that journey.

I think a number of us have talked about the aspects of salvation -- I am saved, I am being saved, I will be saved....

But occasionally I see somebody say "[whatever denomination] are not Christians".

As I pointed out in a different thread (that inspired this one) I don't like to declare people "not Christians" because they align themselves with a certain group or religion or denomination. They may well be there out of ignorance, or because they were born into that, or because they're the spouse or dependent of somebody who's in that denomination.

I can only "know" that you (or anybody else) is "saved" by your testimony and your fruit, but only God knows your heart. Therefore, even in Pastoring, I try NEVER to assume that somebody is "saved" just because they're a deacon in my Church, or have been there "forever", or was "born in the Church nursery".

One of my favorite sayings is "if a cat climbed into an oven and gave birth to kittens, would we call them muffins?"

So, I guess the thread title should really be "who are WE to say who's a Christian and who's not".

Bill the Cat
02-09-2015, 12:53 PM
If someone accepts the doctrines of Joseph Smith, they are not Christians.

Cerebrum123
02-09-2015, 12:57 PM
I'd say that there are a few grayish areas, but there is also plenty of black and white on this issue. Jehovah's Witnesses, Gnostics, Mormons, and given that Islam called Jesus "al-Masih"(the Messiah) Muslims as well fit into the category of non-Christians.

KingsGambit
02-09-2015, 01:06 PM
I do not pretend to know exactly where the lines are. Some Christians have been awfully dogmatic about it (I know one group who not only says that Arminians are not saved, but that all Calvinists who believe that Arminians can be saved are also not saved). But there are some clear lines as well; John's letters delineate some of these clearly.

Cow Poke
02-09-2015, 01:10 PM
Yeah, I think maybe I shouldn't have started this thread -- I don't mean to be divisive.

I'm just thinking that there are some genuine Christ followers who can get temporarily mixed up in some other denomination or group, not understanding what they teach, but it doesn't mean they're not "Christian". :shrug:

Not really interested in a battle over this - just expressing a concern.

Cerebrum123
02-09-2015, 01:11 PM
Yeah, I think maybe I shouldn't have started this thread -- I don't mean to be divisive.

I'm just thinking that there are some genuine Christ followers who can get temporarily mixed up in some other denomination or group, not understanding what they teach, but it doesn't mean they're not "Christian". :shrug:

Not really interested in a battle over this - just expressing a concern.

I agree with this entirely. :yes:

Sparko
02-09-2015, 01:11 PM
I didn't become a Christian until I was 40 years old. But looking back I see that God was working on me the whole time, putting people in my life that made me think and consider even though at the time I was not ready. So if we are talking about someone's ultimate fate, which God knows and we do not, then I have always been saved, because God knew that one day I would accept Christ. I didn't know and others didn't either. Now, I wasn't a Christian until I made the decision to follow Christ, but I think in God's eyes I always belonged to him.

One Bad Pig
02-09-2015, 01:18 PM
I'd say that there are a few grayish areas, but there is also plenty of black and white on this issue. Jehovah's Witnesses, Gnostics, Mormons, and given that Islam called Jesus "al-Masih"(the Messiah) Muslims as well fit into the category of non-Christians.
Generally I agree, but I wouldn't absolutely rule out the possibility of salvation in those groups, especially if one is never exposed to anything else. I wouldn't fellowship with them since they are all manifestly unorthodox, but who ends up saved for eternity is not my call to make (thankfully).

Cow Poke
02-09-2015, 01:24 PM
Generally I agree, but I wouldn't absolutely rule out the possibility of salvation in those groups, especially if one is never exposed to anything else. I wouldn't fellowship with them since they are all manifestly unorthodox, but who ends up saved for eternity is not my call to make (thankfully).

I guess that's part of my point -- people often join groups where they feel comfortable or accepted - which is a major recruiting point for cults. I wouldn't fellowship with the cults at all, but I believe that a "saved" individual can get "suckered" - particularly temporarily - until they begin to see the deception, but their temporary confusion doesn't mean they're not "Christians".

37818
02-09-2015, 01:58 PM
A number of holy scriptures can be cited. One is either a Christian or one is not.

". . . But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his." -- Romans 8:9.

". . . He that hath the Son hath life; [and] he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. . . ." -- 1 John 5:12.

Cow Poke
02-09-2015, 02:08 PM
A number of holy scriptures can be cited. One is either a Christian or one is not.

". . . But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his." -- Romans 8:9.

". . . He that hath the Son hath life; [and] he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. . . ." -- 1 John 5:12.

Yeah, I get that, honest.... but you can't know for a fact that I am a Christian, nor can I now if you are. Particularly, just because I'm a Baptist is certainly no "proof" that I'm a Christian, or that I go to Church, or that I tithe, etc...

Thoughtful Monk
02-09-2015, 02:38 PM
Yeah, I get that, honest.... but you can't know for a fact that I am a Christian, nor can I now if you are. Particularly, just because I'm a Baptist is certainly no "proof" that I'm a Christian, or that I go to Church, or that I tithe, etc...

I have pondered knowing if someone is saved or not for awhile and have concluded that there is no human way to know for sure. Unless you happen to get a direct communication from God about someone, I don't think you can know.

I'm not saying you can't get an indication of their salvation status. I think behavior can indicate their status. But over emphasis on behavior I think can lead to legalism.

(As an aside, I find it a little offensive to be asked in response to a prayer concern about someone "what is their salvation status?" - I'm not God, I don't know for certain.)

Cow Poke
02-09-2015, 02:42 PM
Pman has politely asked if he can post in my thread, and is shipping me the bacon later this afternoon. If this permission needs to come at a higher level, I ask forgiveness, which is usually easier to obtain anyway.

:smile:

Cow Poke
02-09-2015, 02:44 PM
(As an aside, I find it a little offensive to be asked in response to a prayer concern about someone "what is their salvation status?" - I'm not God, I don't know for certain.)

I'm more understanding of that one, because we need a sense of how to minister to them.... maybe it would be better to ask something like "do they claim or confess to being a Christian".

But, yeah.

Thoughtful Monk
02-09-2015, 02:47 PM
I'm more understanding of that one, because we need a sense of how to minister to them.... maybe it would be better to ask something like "do they claim or confess to being a Christian".


Much better way to express the intent of the question. Thanks for sharing the insight.

Cow Poke
02-09-2015, 02:50 PM
Much better way to express the intent of the question. Thanks for sharing the insight.

Thanks for your kindness.

I've given this a lot of thought - when I see how Jesus restored Peter after Peter's denials, it really made me think about labeling somebody "not Christian" before I've had opportunity to talk to them personally, or to hear their story.

pancreasman
02-09-2015, 03:01 PM
Hi folks

Thanks for letting me post. I find this an interesting topic. My perspective as an 'ex-christian' gives me some insight about this. (Yes, I know for some of you there can be no such thing as an ex-Christian.)

About that, for some, there is a doctrinal position that anyone who ceases to be a Christian must never have been a 'real' Christian in the first place. This has been put to me several times and I find it offensive in that it negates my personal lived experience. When I WAS a Christian I was ardent and active, I studied the scriptures, I prayed and had what I though at the time was a very real life with God. I was a worship leader at a very large church and frequently pronounced by others to be 'Spirit filled' and so on. At that time, I defy anyone who met me to suggest I wasn't a Christian.

My point being that our spiritual antennae are not particularly good at sorting out who is or isn't a 'real' Christian. If those people are right, I had everyone, including myself, completely fooled and does not speak highly of Christian discernment. If they're wrong, their discounting of my lived experience also lacks discernment.

In all kinds of social groups including churches there is a natural human tendency to have a way of defining who's in and who's out. My personal opinion is that we have to rise above that.

My favourite scripture is Gal 5:22. Here is a beautiful description of what a 'saint' ought to look like. It's what we call an operational definition, defining what outward signs declare an internal holiness. In my 'post-Christian' years, as I have applied those criteria without preconceptions I have found the world is full of Holy people of varying labels. It is my suspicion that God is more gracious and merciful than we can ever imagine.

In a later post, I'd also like to explore Karl Rahner's idea of an 'anonymous Christian'.

http://www.stjohnadulted.org/The_09.htm#Karl Rahner's Arguments for Inclusivism (http://www.stjohnadulted.org/The_09.htm#Karl Rahner's Arguments for Inclusivism)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anonymous_Christian

Catholicity
02-09-2015, 03:04 PM
I know when I was very little, I made the decision to accept Jesus. I'd had a long term line of Spiritual dreams regarding talking with Jesus, Jesus knocking at my house, seeing Angels (this was not a dream according to my mother) And being visited by Jesus in frightening situations. A short time later I really just wanted to have Him. And I pretty much declared to my mother that I was a Christian and Demanded Baptism at the age of 4 because I knew Jesus like everyone else. I'm pretty sure that made me a Christian. That said, I never really had the mystical experience some Christians state they have, but I sure spent my years growing up with Christ. However my teenage years were tough. I wondered if God was there at times (I can see now that he was) and early adulthood. I can state that the Catholic Church played a large role in my personal faith formation as an adult. Through this I learned about the importance of daily and constant prayer, How to pray when I just couldn't find the words (yup I still use the Lord's prayer regularly, and the Jesus Prayer) The importance of Logically thinking through Scripture, and not seeking an emotional experience with God, but rather knowing that He's there, and just simply working my life around the fact that he exists and no matter how emotional I become whether its an up or a down, this is not going to change. The rest is a matter of trust, and logically thinking out my own emotional thoughts with the word of God. And when I'm far away God does not drop me like a brick, He's still there.
Another discovery I should mention, Becoming a Christian does not need to be a matter of fancy prayer, it need only be the recognition of Christ as the Lord inside the spirit and one ought to make a confession to another. Baptism I believe is crucial but I recognize this is a debate among people.

Catholicity
02-09-2015, 03:09 PM
Hi folks

Thanks for letting me post. I find this an interesting topic. My perspective as an 'ex-christian' gives me some insight about this. (Yes, I know for some of you there can be no such thing as an ex-Christian.)

About that, for some, there is a doctrinal position that anyone who ceases to be a Christian must never have been a 'real' Christian in the first place. This has been put to me several times and I find it offensive in that it negates my personal lived experience. When I WAS a Christian I was ardent and active, I studied the scriptures, I prayed and had what I though at the time was a very real life with God. I was a worship leader at a very large church and frequently pronounced by others to be 'Spirit filled' and so on. At that time, I defy anyone who met me to suggest I wasn't a Christian.

My point being that our spiritual antennae are not particularly good at sorting out who is or isn't a 'real' Christian. If those people are right, I had everyone, including myself, completely fooled and does not speak highly of Christian discernment. If they're wrong, their discounting of my lived experience also lacks discernment.

In all kinds of social groups including churches there is a natural human tendency to have a way of defining who's in and who's out. My personal opinion is that we have to rise above that.

My favourite scripture is Gal 5:22. Here is a beautiful description of what a 'saint' ought to look like. It's what we call an operational definition, defining what outward signs declare an internal holiness. In my 'post-Christian' years, as I have applied those criteria without preconceptions I have found the world is full of Holy people of varying labels. It is my suspicion that God is more gracious and merciful than we can ever imagine.

In a later post, I'd also like to explore Karl Rahner's idea of an 'anonymous Christian'.

http://www.stjohnadulted.org/The_09.htm#Karl Rahner's Arguments for Inclusivism (http://www.stjohnadulted.org/The_09.htm#Karl Rahner's Arguments for Inclusivism)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anonymous_Christian

Something you may be interested in, The RCC is very inclusivist. Its an interesting concept, and honestly one that I believe is a good measure of the Merciful God we worship.

Cow Poke
02-09-2015, 03:12 PM
My point being that our spiritual antennae are not particularly good at sorting out who is or isn't a 'real' Christian. If those people are right, I had everyone, including myself, completely fooled and does not speak highly of Christian discernment. If they're wrong, their discounting of my lived experience also lacks discernment.

In all kinds of social groups including churches there is a natural human tendency to have a way of defining who's in and who's out. My personal opinion is that we have to rise above that.

I guess I'm coming from the perspective of ministry to that particular individual -- I need to have a sense of "where they are" spiritually, because I don't have a spiritometer or salvifiscanner -- and they may actually be an honest-to-goodness 'redeemed of the Lord' who happens to be in a bad place, or got mixed up with a wrong crowd.

As a Pastor, yeah -- I have a responsibility to protect my flock from doctrinal error by cults and outside groups, but that deals with the denomination or a particular Church - not the individual "member" or attender who might be stuck there.

In my recent dealings with the two Mormons in Houston - after they saw the deception of their President over the purchase of land, and they saw actual documentation that there was deception by the Church, they left, but they still professed Christ, and we worked through who that Christ was. I didn't write them off because they "were Mormons" - I saw them as deceived and stumbling.

Adrift
02-09-2015, 04:07 PM
I have pondered knowing if someone is saved or not for awhile and have concluded that there is no human way to know for sure. Unless you happen to get a direct communication from God about someone, I don't think you can know.

I'm not saying you can't get an indication of their salvation status. I think behavior can indicate their status. But over emphasis on behavior I think can lead to legalism.

Yeah. I think "we know them by their fruit" can go some way. I think that if someone were to call themselves a Christian and yet they are a participate in, say, a cause that is mercilessly hateful, I'm within my God given rights to doubt their sanctification.

pancreasman
02-09-2015, 04:21 PM
Something you may be interested in, The RCC is very inclusivist. Its an interesting concept, and honestly one that I believe is a good measure of the Merciful God we worship.

Thanks Cath. I was actually IN the RCC for a few years because of this 'enlightened' side as I saw it. Unfortunately the assault of the 'dark side' of the RCC proved too much. Frankly, I'm with Groucho Marx here, I wouldn't belong to any group that would have me as a member.

37818
02-09-2015, 07:37 PM
There are two nevers:

"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. . . ." -- Matthew 7:21-23.

". . . Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me. But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, . . . " -- John 10:25-28

37818
02-09-2015, 07:42 PM
Yeah, I get that, honest.... but you can't know for a fact that I am a Christian, nor can I now if you are. Particularly, just because I'm a Baptist is certainly no "proof" that I'm a Christian, or that I go to Church, or that I tithe, etc...You are right, we cannot know for sure about anyone else but ourselves.

Paul's advice, "Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, . . . " -- 2 Corinthians 13:5.

One Bad Pig
02-09-2015, 08:03 PM
Thanks Cath. I was actually IN the RCC for a few years because of this 'enlightened' side as I saw it. Unfortunately the assault of the 'dark side' of the RCC proved too much. Frankly, I'm with Groucho Marx here, I wouldn't belong to any group that would have me as a member.

I'm with John Chrysostom. The church is a spiritual hospital, filled with broken people in need of healing.

Cow Poke
02-10-2015, 04:06 AM
I'm with John Chrysostom. The church is a spiritual hospital, filled with broken people in need of healing.

Yeah. Hopefully, there are also enough mature Christians who realize this and accept the ministry of assisting those who are hurting and/or in need.

Jedidiah
02-10-2015, 03:46 PM
I'd say that there are a few grayish areas, but there is also plenty of black and white on this issue. Jehovah's Witnesses, Gnostics, Mormons, and given that Islam called Jesus "al-Masih"(the Messiah) Muslims as well fit into the category of non-Christians.

Whoever you are, if you believe in Jesus Christ, the one path given us by almighty God you are a Christian. You can have all sorts of errors in your theology, but that is not what faith is all about. Faith is believing and trusting.

Jedidiah
02-10-2015, 03:48 PM
I didn't become a Christian until I was 40 years old. But looking back I see that God was working on me the whole time, putting people in my life that made me think and consider even though at the time I was not ready. So if we are talking about someone's ultimate fate, which God knows and we do not, then I have always been saved, because God knew that one day I would accept Christ. I didn't know and others didn't either. Now, I wasn't a Christian until I made the decision to follow Christ, but I think in God's eyes I always belonged to him.It was the early 30s for me, but yes I could look back and see His hand in my life from the earliest times.

Jedidiah
02-10-2015, 03:53 PM
Yeah. I think "we know them by their fruit" can go some way. I think that if someone were to call themselves a Christian and yet they are a participate in, say, a cause that is mercilessly hateful, I'm within my God given rights to doubt their sanctification.

To doubt indeed, to deny not so.

Jedidiah
02-10-2015, 03:59 PM
Thanks Cath. I was actually IN the RCC for a few years because of this 'enlightened' side as I saw it. Unfortunately the assault of the 'dark side' of the RCC proved too much. Frankly, I'm with Groucho Marx here, I wouldn't belong to any group that would have me as a member.

You know that I disagree with you on almost everything. You know that. I none-the-less must say that every Christian who is not fooling himself (or herself generic pronoun here) must have to recognize much the same thing. Am I good enough to claim Christ? No. But I do not have to be good enough, He is changing me. One fine day I will be good enough - but not in this sad world.

pancreasman
02-10-2015, 04:09 PM
You know that I disagree with you on almost everything. You know that. I none-the-less must say that every Christian who is not fooling himself (or herself generic pronoun here) must have to recognize much the same thing. Am I good enough to claim Christ? No. But I do not have to be good enough, He is changing me. One fine day I will be good enough - but not in this sad world.

There are specific issues I have with the RCC that go beyond the general idea that we are all broken. IMO there are systemic issues of brokenness that are not acknowledged let alone addressed. However, I am not here to criticise the RCC. That's a personal issue.

Jedidiah
02-10-2015, 06:49 PM
Pman, my post had nothing to do with the RCC. I can see how you might have gotten that since I was responding to your response to Cath. I was just trying to say that while I disagree with most of your positions (only on political issues actually) I do not write you off. You seem like a sensible person over all in-spite of your politics.

Scrawly
02-11-2015, 08:29 PM
I don't think we can be overtly confident as to who is a Christian and who is not. I think we can see evidence of salvation in a person's life, but not be 100% sure due to the complexity of humans and the incomprehensible amount of variations and motivations for why we do what we do.

With that said, I am confident that God knows His sheep and will regenerate his elect in his timing. The best we can do is encourage and help one another out along the way.

Jedidiah
02-12-2015, 02:16 PM
Thanks for letting me post. I find this an interesting topic. My perspective as an 'ex-christian' gives me some insight about this. (Yes, I know for some of you there can be no such thing as an ex-Christian.)

About that, for some, there is a doctrinal position that anyone who ceases to be a Christian must never have been a 'real' Christian in the first place. This has been put to me several times and I find it offensive in that it negates my personal lived experience. When I WAS a Christian I was ardent and active, I studied the scriptures, I prayed and had what I though at the time was a very real life with God. I was a worship leader at a very large church and frequently pronounced by others to be 'Spirit filled' and so on. At that time, I defy anyone who met me to suggest I wasn't a Christian.

This may be something of a sidetrack, but it is related.

I am one of those horrid folks who believe that there is no such thing as an ex-Christian. In support of this let me tell you of two men I know of, one more intimately than the other. These two men were pastors in Christian churches. One spent his life as a pastor and ultimately retired. Both of these men, after preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ for years, came to the realization that their sincerity and experience was misleading. These were honest faithful men. One of them led a friend of mine to salvation in Christ. Both of these men thought they were real Christians until they were actually saved. So if it offends you that I do not count active and ardent behavior as real salvation so be it. If you are not a Christian now, you never were.

Scrawly
02-12-2015, 02:51 PM
This may be something of a sidetrack, but it is related.

I am one of those horrid folks who believe that there is no such thing as an ex-Christian. In support of this let me tell you of two men I know of, one more intimately than the other. These two men were pastors in Christian churches. One spent his life as a pastor and ultimately retired. Both of these men, after preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ for years, came to the realization that their sincerity and experience was misleading. These were honest faithful men. One of them led a friend of mine to salvation in Christ. Both of these men thought they were real Christians until they were actually saved. So if it offends you that I do not count active and ardent behavior as real salvation so be it. If you are not a Christian now, you never were.

I agree with your view, however, my support would be derived from Scripture. :wink:

pancreasman
02-12-2015, 03:17 PM
This may be something of a sidetrack, but it is related.

I am one of those horrid folks who believe that there is no such thing as an ex-Christian. In support of this let me tell you of two men I know of, one more intimately than the other. These two men were pastors in Christian churches. One spent his life as a pastor and ultimately retired. Both of these men, after preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ for years, came to the realization that their sincerity and experience was misleading. These were honest faithful men. One of them led a friend of mine to salvation in Christ. Both of these men thought they were real Christians until they were actually saved. So if it offends you that I do not count active and ardent behavior as real salvation so be it. If you are not a Christian now, you never were.

I do find that horrid. Anecdote just won't do it. It's usually justified on what I consider the bad interpretation of a few scriptures. I was a REAL Christian. I trusted utterly in Christ for my salvation. Only my continued self education led me to other conclusions.

Perhaps I could put it another way. I was as REAL a Christian as you can get. I was a REAL a Christian as you think you are. I thought I was, just like you. In fact, I don't think there any REAL Christians in that mystical sense in which you use the term. I now think it is all a little earnest self deception. I don't usually say that because I think it's disrespectful to your current lived experience, but if you're free to doubt my experience, then I'm free to doubt yours.

I don't think there's anything constructive to be gained by dismissing out of hand someone's experience. You can only start from where a person is NOW. If your goal is to truly lead me to Christ, this sort of judgement only pushes me further away.

Adrift
02-12-2015, 05:25 PM
I do find that horrid. Anecdote just won't do it. It's usually justified on what I consider the bad interpretation of a few scriptures. I was a REAL Christian. I trusted utterly in Christ for my salvation. Only my continued self education led me to other conclusions.

Perhaps I could put it another way. I was as REAL a Christian as you can get. I was a REAL a Christian as you think you are. I thought I was, just like you. In fact, I don't think there any REAL Christians in that mystical sense in which you use the term. I now think it is all a little earnest self deception. I don't usually say that because I think it's disrespectful to your current lived experience, but if you're free to doubt my experience, then I'm free to doubt yours.

I don't think there's anything constructive to be gained by dismissing out of hand someone's experience. You can only start from where a person is NOW. If your goal is to truly lead me to Christ, this sort of judgement only pushes me further away.

I'm confused by this post. You find it horrid (and I'm guessing a bit hurtful) when others think that your previous Christian experience was rooted in some sort of self-deception (as evidenced by your apostasy), but on the other hand you admit that you also believe that people who think they're REAL Christians are also suffering self-deception.

Basically, you're fine with dismissing someone else's experience, but you don't want others to do it to you. :huh:

People who believe that apostates were either never Christians to begin with, or believe that they are currently backslidden do not believe these things because they're mean, or because they necessarily think you're lying about your experience. They believe it because, as far as they can tell, its doctrinal.

In my own personal experience, I've known a few people who were hot on fire for God types. Who actually worked day and night in leadership roles. Who volunteered in a ton of positions. Who knew the Bible in and out. And when they apostatized... honestly... I wasn't that surprised. If I were to sit down and talk to them today about their experience, they'd swear up and down that they really believed, but, you know, when you've been around for awhile, and when you've seen a few people super on fire sort of puff out... you start seeing certain tells. Especially with those people who do things in extremes. It doesn't always end up like that, but I've seen it enough times to not be surprised. I don't know everything that was going on in their minds, but whatever purchase they thought they had on the Rock, it wasn't as secure as they thought. :shrug: Something happens to apostates to make them lose their trust in God, and it seems to me that saving faith requires a trust that is, in the end game, unshakable. That doesn't mean that Christians won't have their moments of doubt, and I believe sometimes those moments can last years, but something shook them free.

One Bad Pig
02-12-2015, 05:34 PM
This may be something of a sidetrack, but it is related.

I am one of those horrid folks who believe that there is no such thing as an ex-Christian. In support of this let me tell you of two men I know of, one more intimately than the other. These two men were pastors in Christian churches. One spent his life as a pastor and ultimately retired. Both of these men, after preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ for years, came to the realization that their sincerity and experience was misleading. These were honest faithful men. One of them led a friend of mine to salvation in Christ. Both of these men thought they were real Christians until they were actually saved. So if it offends you that I do not count active and ardent behavior as real salvation so be it. If you are not a Christian now, you never were.
IMO the language of the NT points to salvation as a continuing process, not a point event. English translations tend to obscure this entirely. Thus in this life, when following Christ, one is being saved; when one is not following Christ, one is not being saved. Though we are faithless, still He is faithful (2 Tim 2:13). If anyone repents and turns to Christ, he is being saved. That possibility is there at least until death. I think these men confused a new, deeper understanding of Christianity with a salvation event.

Adrift
02-12-2015, 05:40 PM
IMO the language of the NT points to salvation as a continuing process, not a point event. English translations tend to obscure this entirely. Thus in this life, when following Christ, one is being saved; when one is not following Christ, one is not being saved. Though we are faithless, still He is faithful (2 Tim 2:13). If anyone repents and turns to Christ, he is being saved. That possibility is there at least until death. I think these men confused a new, deeper understanding of Christianity with a salvation event.

My issue with this view is that it essentially says that one can fall in and out of salvation over the course of their life. One minute you're going to heaven, the next minute you're going to hell, repeat ad nauseum. It seems to make salvation a works type process that one needs to maintain in order to keep their neck above the waves.

KingsGambit
02-12-2015, 05:44 PM
My issue with this view is that it essentially says that one can fall in and out of salvation over the course of their life. One minute you're going to heaven, the next minute you're going to hell, repeat ad nauseum. It seems to make salvation a works type process that one needs to maintain in order to keep their neck above the waves.

Philippians 2:12 should be kept in mind. Though salvation is of grace and not works, effort is needed to persevere in the faith.

One Bad Pig
02-12-2015, 05:50 PM
My issue with this view is that it essentially says that one can fall in and out of salvation over the course of their life. One minute you're going to heaven, the next minute you're going to hell, repeat ad nauseum. It seems to make salvation a works type process that one needs to maintain in order to keep their neck above the waves.
Except that's a caricature of the view. As long as one is acting at least minimally in faith, then one is being saved. If one is ignoring God entirely, then one is not. Salvation is a process of faith, not works; works are merely evidence of faith, without which faith is dead.

KingsGambit
02-12-2015, 05:52 PM
My view of the loss of salvation (which I do believe is possible) is not that it is just a case where you commit a sin and boom, you lose your salvation. I would say it is more accurate to say that loss is at the point where sin overtakes one's life to the point where it has priority over Christ. Though all Christians will sin now and sin, if a true Christian does, he will sorrow over it rather than rejoice in it.

ETA: Over time, unchecked sin dulls our hearts toward Christ (Hebrews 3:8).

Adrift
02-12-2015, 06:06 PM
Philippians 2:12 should be kept in mind. Though salvation is of grace and not works, effort is needed to persevere in the faith.

That's the passage I usually hear in this type of discussion, but scholars have varying interpretations on it. See for example Gordon Fee's:

That brings him finally to the imperative, what all of this was aiming at in the first place: "Work out your own salvation." This choice of language is predicated on his prior use of "salvation" in 1:28, which, he asserted, is "from God." But "salvation" is not only something they receive; it is something they do. A great deal of unnecessary ink has been spilt over this passage, as to whether "salvation" has to do with the individual believer or with the corporate life of the community [e.g. FF Bruce who believes it has to do with the community rather than the individual]. But that is a false dichotomy. The context makes it clear that this is not a soteriological text per se, dealing with "people getting saved" or "saved people persevering." Rather it is an ethical text, dealing with "how saved people live out their salvation" in the context of the believing community and the world. What Paul is referring to, therefore, is the present "outworking" of their eschatological salvation within the believing community in Philippi. At issue is "obedience," pure and simple, which in this case is defined as their "working or carrying out in their corporate life the salvation that God has graciously given them." That they must comply with this injunction at the individual level is assumed, and that their final eschatological salvation will be realized personally and individually is a truth that does not need stating, because that is not at issue here. In Pauline theology people are saved one by one to be sure (which is the point of discontinuity with election in the OT), but (in continuity with the OT) they are saved so as to become a "people for God's name." The concern in this passage is with their being his people in Philippi, as v. 15 makes certain ("that you may become blameless and pure, God's children without fault in a crooked and depraved generation").

KingsGambit
02-12-2015, 06:11 PM
That's the passage I usually hear in this type of discussion, but scholars have varying interpretations on it. See for example Gordon Fee's:

That brings him finally to the imperative, what all of this was aiming at in the first place: "Work out your own salvation." This choice of language is predicated on his prior use of "salvation" in 1:28, which, he asserted, is "from God." But "salvation" is not only something they receive; it is something they do. A great deal of unnecessary ink has been spilt over this passage, as to whether "salvation" has to do with the individual believer or with the corporate life of the community [e.g. FF Bruce who believes it has to do with the community rather than the individual]. But that is a false dichotomy. The context makes it clear that this is not a soteriological text per se, dealing with "people getting saved" or "saved people persevering." Rather it is an ethical text, dealing with "how saved people live out their salvation" in the context of the believing community and the world. What Paul is referring to, therefore, is the present "outworking" of their eschatological salvation within the believing community in Philippi. At issue is "obedience," pure and simple, which in this case is defined as their "working or carrying out in their corporate life the salvation that God has graciously given them." That they must comply with this injunction at the individual level is assumed, and that their final eschatological salvation will be realized personally and individually is a truth that does not need stating, because that is not at issue here. In Pauline theology people are saved one by one to be sure (which is the point of discontinuity with election in the OT), but (in continuity with the OT) they are saved so as to become a "people for God's name." The concern in this passage is with their being his people in Philippi, as v. 15 makes certain ("that you may become blameless and pure, God's children without fault in a crooked and depraved generation").

I don't there's anything in Fee's interpretation that I would disagree with; I think it nicely dovetails with the oft-cited principle that true salvation will result in good works. There are enough moral exhortations in the NT that I think it seems fair to say that living the Christian life requires some effort, regardless of how we identify this sotierologically.

Adrift
02-12-2015, 06:25 PM
Except that's a caricature of the view. As long as one is acting at least minimally in faith, then one is being saved. If one is ignoring God entirely, then one is not. Salvation is a process of faith, not works; works are merely evidence of faith, without which faith is dead.


My view of the loss of salvation (which I do believe is possible) is not that it is just a case where you commit a sin and boom, you lose your salvation. I would say it is more accurate to say that loss is at the point where sin overtakes one's life to the point where it has priority over Christ. Though all Christians will sin now and sin, if a true Christian does, he will sorrow over it rather than rejoice in it.

ETA: Over time, unchecked sin dulls our hearts toward Christ (Hebrews 3:8).

Okay, so in your view, how many chances do we get at this assuming we do lose our salvation? Are we re-reborn every time we come back into salvation? Do we become new creations over and over again? Is there a hypothetical limit to the number of times we can be reborn? Are we filled with the holy spirit each time? And what does it mean to have eternal life? Is eternal life something we only have once we die and go to heaven, or is it something we can live in right here and now when we make Christ Lord? If the latter, then how is it that eternal life can dissipate and go away? How can we call it eternal if it can be squelched? How does keeping up minimal faith requirements square up with passages like James 2:12 which says "For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it."? What does the author of Hebrews mean when he writes in 6:4, "For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame." Is Christ crucified again and again when we come back into saving grace? How do we square this view with passages like John 6:37, 1 John 2:19, and 1 John 3:6?

Jedidiah
02-12-2015, 06:41 PM
I agree with your view, however, my support would be derived from Scripture. :wink:

It has been argued from Scripture numerous times. I agree with you but since Pman is not a believer . . .

Jedidiah
02-12-2015, 06:43 PM
I do find that horrid. Anecdote just won't do it. It's usually justified on what I consider the bad interpretation of a few scriptures. I was a REAL Christian. I trusted utterly in Christ for my salvation. Only my continued self education led me to other conclusions.

Perhaps I could put it another way. I was as REAL a Christian as you can get. I was a REAL a Christian as you think you are. I thought I was, just like you. In fact, I don't think there any REAL Christians in that mystical sense in which you use the term. I now think it is all a little earnest self deception. I don't usually say that because I think it's disrespectful to your current lived experience, but if you're free to doubt my experience, then I'm free to doubt yours.

I don't think there's anything constructive to be gained by dismissing out of hand someone's experience. You can only start from where a person is NOW. If your goal is to truly lead me to Christ, this sort of judgement only pushes me further away.Well I am sorry you feel offended, that was never my intention. I stand by what I wrote, but I will drop it now.

Jedidiah
02-12-2015, 06:47 PM
IMO the language of the NT points to salvation as a continuing process, not a point event. English translations tend to obscure this entirely. Thus in this life, when following Christ, one is being saved; when one is not following Christ, one is not being saved. Though we are faithless, still He is faithful (2 Tim 2:13). If anyone repents and turns to Christ, he is being saved. That possibility is there at least until death. I think these men confused a new, deeper understanding of Christianity with a salvation event.

I agree with the concept of "being saved." I see it a bit differently though. I "was saved," I "am being saved," and I will be saved." Once you are in Christs hand you are there for good. No one, and nothing can take you out. The salvation event is just the beginning, but it is the beginning of something permanent.

pancreasman
02-12-2015, 06:48 PM
Well I am sorry you feel offended, that was never my intention. I stand by what I wrote, but I will drop it now.

You might be misreading what I'm saying. I'm using the word 'horrid' because you used it. I find it mildly offensive and unproductive. The second part of my post was an attempt to put the shoe on the other foot and show how silly that sounded. I guess my writing skills failed to convey what I meant.

Jedidiah
02-12-2015, 06:48 PM
Philippians 2:12 should be kept in mind. Though salvation is of grace and not works, effort is needed to persevere in the faith.

Yes, to persevere in the life of faith, but not in salvation. If you have to work to remain saved, salvation is of works, not grace.

KingsGambit
02-12-2015, 06:51 PM
Okay, so in your view, how many chances do we get at this assuming we do lose our salvation? Are we re-reborn every time we come back into salvation? Do we become new creations over and over again? Is there a hypothetical limit to the number of times we can be reborn? Are we filled with the holy spirit each time? And what does it mean to have eternal life? Is eternal life something we only have once we die and go to heaven, or is it something we can live in right here and now when we make Christ Lord? If the latter, then how is it that eternal life can dissipate and go away? How can we call it eternal if it can be squelched? How does keeping up minimal faith requirements square up with passages like James 2:12 which says "For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it."? What does the author of Hebrews mean when he writes in 6:4, "For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame." Is Christ crucified again and again when we come back into saving grace? How do we square this view with passages like John 6:37, 1 John 2:19, and 1 John 3:6?

1 John 2:19 is one passage that I honestly don't know what to make of. At face value it does seem to speak against the possibility of apostasy; I remember a former TWebber trying to convince me otherwise but his exegesis didn't seem very convincing. I don't think Hebrews 6:4-6 refers to individual sins; I believe commentators are generally agreed that it refers to a decisive moment of apostasy (as Scot McKnight argues, there seems to be a sense of pride involved in the actions there).

I don't personally think there is a "limit" to the number of times one can repent, based on what Jesus said about forgiving our brother seven times seven if he genuinely repents. If somebody is trying to abuse this (like the European monarch in olden times who would sleep with a mistress everyday and then go see his confessor) I see it as evidence one is not clearly saved, but if one is struggling and genuinely trying I think grace still exists. (This was debated in the early church; the Shepherd of Hermas suggested that one could only repent of serious sins once after becoming a Christian; Tertullian thought even this was one too many.)

Jedidiah
02-12-2015, 06:53 PM
That's the passage I usually hear in this type of discussion, but scholars have varying interpretations on it. See for example Gordon Fee's:

That brings him finally to the imperative, what all of this was aiming at in the first place: "Work out your own salvation." This choice of language is predicated on his prior use of "salvation" in 1:28, which, he asserted, is "from God." But "salvation" is not only something they receive; it is something they do. A great deal of unnecessary ink has been spilt over this passage, as to whether "salvation" has to do with the individual believer or with the corporate life of the community [e.g. FF Bruce who believes it has to do with the community rather than the individual]. But that is a false dichotomy. The context makes it clear that this is not a soteriological text per se, dealing with "people getting saved" or "saved people persevering." Rather it is an ethical text, dealing with "how saved people live out their salvation" in the context of the believing community and the world. What Paul is referring to, therefore, is the present "outworking" of their eschatological salvation within the believing community in Philippi. At issue is "obedience," pure and simple, which in this case is defined as their "working or carrying out in their corporate life the salvation that God has graciously given them." That they must comply with this injunction at the individual level is assumed, and that their final eschatological salvation will be realized personally and individually is a truth that does not need stating, because that is not at issue here. In Pauline theology people are saved one by one to be sure (which is the point of discontinuity with election in the OT), but (in continuity with the OT) they are saved so as to become a "people for God's name." The concern in this passage is with their being his people in Philippi, as v. 15 makes certain ("that you may become blameless and pure, God's children without fault in a crooked and depraved generation").Exactly! I have been saved and now I must work out that salvation in my every day life (being saved). A truly challenging task.

Cow Poke
02-12-2015, 06:54 PM
Exactly! I have been saved and now I must work out that salvation in my every day life (being saved). A truly challenging task.

As my wise old associate pastor would say - "you can't 'work out' what ain't in ya". :smile:

Jedidiah
02-12-2015, 06:56 PM
You might be misreading what I'm saying. I'm using the word 'horrid' because you used it. I find it mildly offensive and unproductive. The second part of my post was an attempt to put the shoe on the other foot and show how silly that sounded. I guess my writing skills failed to convey what Meant.

And I apologize for that sarcasm. It was not only uncalled for, and unproductive, but was not really what I was trying to do. Again I am sorry.

One Bad Pig
02-12-2015, 07:03 PM
Okay, so in your view, how many chances do we get at this assuming we do lose our salvation?
In my view, we don't lose our salvation; we're no longer attaining it.

Are we re-reborn every time we come back into salvation? Do we become new creations over and over again? Is there a hypothetical limit to the number of times we can be reborn?
In a sense, once - when we first turn to Christ. In another sense, an infinite number of times - whenever we repent of a sin.

Are we filled with the Holy Spirit each time?
What does it mean to be "filled with the Holy Spirit"?

And what does it mean to have eternal life? Is eternal life something we only have once we die and go to heaven, or is it something we can live in right here and now when we make Christ Lord? If the latter, then how is it that eternal life can dissipate and go away? How can we call it eternal if it can be squelched?I'm fairly certain that occurs in the life to come (Luke 18:30).

How does keeping up minimal faith requirements square up with passages like James 2:12 which says "For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it."?
I think that's poking at the self-righteous.

What does the author of Hebrews mean when he writes in 6:4, "For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame." Is Christ crucified again and again when we come back into saving grace?
Good question. We need to square it in some sense with James 5:19-20. This may be a case of hyperbole to show the gravity of turning away.

How do we square this view with passages like John 6:37
I don't see how this is relevant; it refers to the actions of Jesus, not the person.

1 John 2:19,
I would not say that all who claim Christianity are born again. Was Simon Magus?

and 1 John 3:6?
I'm fairly certain that is polemic against those who believed that Christianity gave them a license to sin.

pancreasman
02-12-2015, 07:08 PM
IMHO, this thread is wandering off into well known territory that kind of excludes me from participating as a non-Christian. We seemed to reach consensus that it was very difficult if not well nigh impossible to judge another's salvation state but then reversed and some of you now claim that although you can't be sure of the salvation state of your fellow Christians you CAN be sure of mine. It seems an odd place to be.

Cow Poke
02-12-2015, 07:09 PM
IMHO, this thread is wandering off into well known territory that kind of excludes me from participating as a non-Christian. We seemed to reach consensus that it was very difficult if not well nigh impossible to judge another's salvation state but then reversed and some of you now claim that although you can't be sure of the salvation state of your fellow Christians you CAN be sure of mine. It seems an odd place to be.

Yeah, it's time for somebody to mention Hitler and bacon.

Jedidiah
02-12-2015, 07:22 PM
Yeah, it's time for somebody to mention Hitler and bacon.

You win.

Adrift
02-12-2015, 08:06 PM
What does it mean to be "filled with the Holy Spirit"?

Its when the Holy Spirit indwells the believer upon making Jesus Lord as promised by Jesus in John 4:16, and which seems to be confirmed in passages like Romans 8:9, Ephesians 1:13-14, and Ephesians 5:18.


I'm fairly certain that occurs in the life to come (Luke 18:30).

What part of that passage makes you believe that eternal life is something that occurs in the life to come? What are your thoughts about passages like John 3:36 which says, “Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life.” where the phrase "has life" is in the present tense, and where we find similar present tense constructions in John 5:24 and John 6:47?


Good question. We need to square it in some sense with James 5:19-20. This may be a case of hyperbole to show the gravity of turning away.

I think it squares rather well. James 5:19-20 doesn't seem to indicate that once one finally does apostate, that they can be redeemed. He's dead Jim!


I don't see how this is relevant; it refers to the actions of Jesus, not the person.

I think it demonstrates how hardy salvation is once received. Once one is saved, Christ doesn't seem to be in the habit of shooing those away if and when they fall.


I would not say that all who claim Christianity are born again. Was Simon Magus?

That's pretty much my point.

Adrift
02-12-2015, 08:15 PM
IMHO, this thread is wandering off into well known territory that kind of excludes me from participating as a non-Christian. We seemed to reach consensus that it was very difficult if not well nigh impossible to judge another's salvation state but then reversed and some of you now claim that although you can't be sure of the salvation state of your fellow Christians you CAN be sure of mine. It seems an odd place to be.

It doesn't seem odd at all. The apostate has, in a way, shown their hand. While it may be nigh impossible to figure out who belongs to Christ based purely on their denominational, doctrinal, or theological views, the one who has said "I do not accept Christ" makes things rather easy. For some Christians there can only be a few options on the table (1) The apostate was never truly in Christ to begin with (2) The individual is still in Christ but badly backslidden, but, like the Prodigal Son, will come back to reclaim his inheritance, or (3) The Christian has done the truly unthinkable and committed the Unforgivable Sin, which I think is probably extremely rare. There are some who believe it cannot even be committed post-Jesus' death and resurrection.

Adrift
02-12-2015, 08:17 PM
Yeah, it's time for somebody to mention Hitler and bacon.

I don't get the Hitler thing. I think I missed that in-joke.

Chrawnus
02-12-2015, 08:19 PM
I don't get the Hitler thing. I think I missed that in-joke.

I don't think Godwin's law is much of an in-joke. :shrug:

footwasher
02-12-2015, 08:31 PM
It doesn't seem odd at all. The apostate has, in a way, shown their hand. While it may be nigh impossible to figure out who belongs to Christ based purely on their denominational, doctrinal, or theological views, the one who has said "I do not accept Christ" makes things rather easy. For some Christians there can only be a few options on the table (1) The apostate was never truly in Christ to begin with (2) The individual is still in Christ but badly backslidden, but, like the Prodigal Son, will come back to reclaim his inheritance, or (3) The Christian has done the truly unthinkable and committed the Unforgivable Sin, which I think is probably extremely rare. There are some who believe it cannot even be committed post-Jesus' death and resurrection.

Hi Adrift, have you been reading my posts in the other forum? Warning: some people are not ready for solid food.

Notice
Ill be busy for awhile: got to put on my doctoral gowns and get ready for the ordination of our seminary students. We have the top guys from the top seminary stateside sharing the dais. I know, I know, any group willing to have me is not going to be any worthwhile group in the near future, but they still don't muzzle me, so as long as they'll have me ill stick around.

Also been invited to do some reviews:

Hi, Wordkeeper!
I noticed You like scholarship, so it'd be fascinating for me and others to see You review some academic commentary volumes here on CF. I welcome You to post reviews in the main thread for commentary reviews on Christianforums: Practical Commentary on Scripture. (At some point I'm going to have some of the now irrelevant posts removed (ones that talk about hundreds of years old commentaries).) You can cite some post when You write the review if there are any that touch approximately the same thing, in order to continue the discussion.

Or post in: A guide to commentaries on deuterocanonical/apocryphal books?.
/Unix
Please don't advertise other websites

Adrift
02-12-2015, 08:44 PM
I don't think Godwin's law is much of an in-joke. :shrug:

Oh. that's one of those internet things, like Poe's Law or something. There's too many of them to keep up with. There's one that has something to do with skipping, like, the first 15 seconds of a Youtube video too (can't remember what its called). When I was a kid we just had Murphy's Law, and that was all I needed to remember.

Adrift
02-12-2015, 08:48 PM
Hi Adrift, have you been reading my posts in the other forum? Warning: some people are not ready for solid food.

No. I'm not sure what you're talking about.


Notice
Ill be busy for awhile: got to put on my doctoral gowns and get ready for the ordination of our seminary students. We have the top guys from the top seminary stateside sharing the dais. I know, I know, any group willing to have me is not going to be any worthwhile group in the near future, but they still don't muzzle me, so as long as they'll have me ill stick around.

Also been invited to do some reviews:

Hi, Wordkeeper!
I noticed You like scholarship, so it'd be fascinating for me and others to see You review some academic commentary volumes here on CF. I welcome You to post reviews in the main thread for commentary reviews on Christianforums: Practical Commentary on Scripture. (At some point I'm going to have some of the now irrelevant posts removed (ones that talk about hundreds of years old commentaries).) You can cite some post when You write the review if there are any that touch approximately the same thing, in order to continue the discussion.

Or post in: A guide to commentaries on deuterocanonical/apocryphal books?.
/Unix

Little confused by this. Thought for a second maybe your account was hacked or something...

footwasher
02-12-2015, 09:04 PM
No. I'm not sure what you're talking about.



Little confused by this. Thought for a second maybe your account was hacked or something...

Sorry, you are bringing up all the issues I answered elsewhere. If you are still interested, I can link you by PM to views that promote growth and enjoyment of the results of Jesus's work, on the Cross, in this life.

pancreasman
02-12-2015, 09:09 PM
I think I'll be leaving this thread now until it turns productive and/or sane again.

Cow Poke
02-13-2015, 04:15 AM
Hi Adrift, have you been reading my posts in the other forum? Warning: some people are not ready for solid food.


Translation: I'm so incredibly immature that I think that sowing discord is more important than unity.

Cow Poke
02-13-2015, 04:16 AM
I don't get the Hitler thing. I think I missed that in-joke.

Yeah, just the Godwin's law thing. :shrug:

Adrift
02-13-2015, 05:38 AM
I think I'll be leaving this thread now until it turns productive and/or sane again.

:shrug: One of the great things about Christianity 201 is that it allows Christians to discuss Christian topics without having to be too concerned with how non-Christians may react to the conversation. If the discussion had the potential to offend you, then perhaps you shouldn't have participated.


Yeah, just the Godwin's law thing. :shrug:

Ah, got it. Thanks! :thumb:

pancreasman
02-13-2015, 01:42 PM
I'm not offended. It's justvwandered into an area that I'm not interested in.

Adrift
02-13-2015, 02:05 PM
I'm not offended. It's justvwandered into an area that I'm not interested in.

You implied in your last post that the conversation has become both unproductive and insane after it "reversed" (your word) into an area that you're apparently uncomfortable with or offended by.

As a reminder, you're the one who "reversed" the thread. No one was talking about apostasy until you brought up the topic in post #17. I don't have a problem with the fact that you brought it up, but in the last 3 posts you've said that certain views on apostasy are odd, unproductive, and not altogether sane, so you can see how one might think you were offended.

pancreasman
02-13-2015, 02:18 PM
P
You implied in your last post that the conversation has become both unproductive and insane after it "reversed" (your word) into an area that you're apparently uncomfortable with or offended by.

As a reminder, you're the one who "reversed" the thread. No one was talking about apostasy until you brought up the topic in post #17. I don't have a problem with the fact that you brought it up, but in the last 3 posts you've said that certain views on apostasy are odd, unproductive, and not altogether sane, so you can see how one might think you were offended.

The 'insane' part is just footwasher. Never mind, I'll leave if you stop addressing me and let you Christians conduct your business determining who's in and who's out. You can surely see how this is deteriorating. Some of it may be my fault.

Jedidiah
02-13-2015, 03:43 PM
The 'insane' part is just footwasher. Never mind, I'll leave if you stop addressing me and let you Christians conduct your business determining who's in and who's out. You can surely see how this is deteriorating. Some of it may be my fault.

Don't leave on this account. It ain't your your fault a thread titled "Who's a Christian?" got to where it is.

footwasher
02-14-2015, 07:56 AM
No. I'm not sure what you're talking about.

Little confused by this. Thought for a second maybe your account was hacked or something...

Hi Adrift, I noticed the issues discussed are exactly the ones being dealt with on another discussion I'm having. I was pressed for time and was not clear in my post. I apologize. I also included text that should have gone into another thread. Apologies to all for that.

Adrift
02-14-2015, 08:02 AM
Hi Adrift, I noticed the issues discussed are exactly the ones being dealt with on another discussion I'm having. I was pressed for time and was not clear in my post. I apologize. I also included text that should have gone into another thread. Apologies to all for that.

Okay understood. No worries.

37818
02-14-2015, 08:49 AM
Being a genuine Christian is easy. Since it is God who does the saving. "Whosoever believes Jesus is the Christ is born from God, . . ." -- 1 John 5:1. The condition being that the believer believes in God's Christ, and in what that means for Jesus to be God's Christ. (1 Corinthians 15:1-8 etc)

footwasher
02-14-2015, 10:28 AM
Okay, so in your view, how many chances do we get at this assuming we do lose our salvation? Are we re-reborn every time we come back into salvation? Do we become new creations over and over again? Is there a hypothetical limit to the number of times we can be reborn? Are we filled with the holy spirit each time? And what does it mean to have eternal life? Is eternal life something we only have once we die and go to heaven, or is it something we can live in right here and now when we make Christ Lord? If the latter, then how is it that eternal life can dissipate and go away? How can we call it eternal if it can be squelched? How does keeping up minimal faith requirements square up with passages like James 2:12 which says "For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it."? What does the author of Hebrews mean when he writes in 6:4, "For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame." Is Christ crucified again and again when we come back into saving grace? How do we square this view with passages like John 6:37, 1 John 2:19, and 1 John 3:6?



Apostasy is about rejecting appointment, ordination, of a nation, in this text. Disobedience of Israel is set off against the later obedience of Christ. The first son said he would go and work in the field, and did nothing . The second said he would not go, and later went.

Jesus was not fearful: He crossed the Jordan

Jesus was not disrespectful: He did not test God by using His anointing to prove he could do anything he wanted, could jump from a high place, was all powerful, was protected by God.

1. Israel was fearful about their ministry. They shrank back, refusing to cross the Jordan and fight the enemy. They expected God to plonk them into the Promised Land, where they could drink of the milk and honey, and be adulated by all the nations. Instead their conditions became worse than when they were in Egypt. They did not know that this was to teach them that fulfilling the role of being God’s blessing to the world depended on being loyal to God, not doubting Him, not murmuring. They needed to be unselfish to one another in the Promised Land through following Law which could only be done by depending on God (as Christ did). This was a sin that leads to death, because they had a fearful spirit, unlike Joshua and Caleb. God saw it revealed in them, knew it could not be turned to repentance, and let them die in the desert.

2. They were disrespectful of the election. They thought it gave them carte blanche, a blank check to do as they pleased, because it obligated God to protect them. They ignored the warning that they needed to have God with them to defeat the Canaanites. This is also a sin that leads to death and nothing, not even prayers can cure a man of this. They were defeated by the Canaanites. Allowing them to win would have proved that God chose them because they were special, when they were like the rest of the world dead in transgression, only chosen by grace.

Like Esau they were disrespectful of their election. Just as Esau was the eldest, had birthright and thought it obligated God to protect him, even when he risked it for a bowl of soup. Israel thought that being the first chosen people of God entitled them to protection from the Canaanites. They went into battle disobeying Moses. Their defeat showed that God was not be tested, taken for granted.

The letter to the Hebrews was written to teach them not to nurture these faults, but to nip them in the bud, because God never gave Israel or Esau a second chance when they committed these sins:

Hebrews 3:1Therefore, holy brethren, partakers of a heavenly calling, consider Jesus, the Apostle and High Priest of our confession; 2He was faithful to Him who appointed Him, as Moses also was in all His house. 3For He has been counted worthy of more glory than Moses, by just so much as the builder of the house has more honor than the house. 4For every house is built by someone, but the builder of all things is God.5Now Moses was faithful in all His house as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken later; 6but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house—whose house we are, if we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end.
7Therefore, just as the Holy Spirit says,
“TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE,
8DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS AS WHEN THEY PROVOKED ME,
AS IN THE DAY OF TRIAL IN THE WILDERNESS,
9WHERE YOUR FATHERS TRIED Me BY TESTING Me,
AND SAW MY WORKS FOR FORTY YEARS.
10“THEREFORE I WAS ANGRY WITH THIS GENERATION,
AND SAID, ‘THEY ALWAYS GO ASTRAY IN THEIR HEART,
AND THEY DID NOT KNOW MY WAYS’;
11AS I SWORE IN MY WRATH,
‘THEY SHALL NOT ENTER MY REST.’”



12Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God. 13But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called “Today,” so that none of you will be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. 14For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end,
15while it is said,
“TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE,
DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS, AS WHEN THEY PROVOKED ME.”
16For who provoked Him when they had heard? Indeed, did not all those who came out of Egypt led by Moses? 17And with whom was He angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the wilderness? 18And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who were disobedient? 19So we see that they were not able to enter because of unbelief.

…..

Heberews 12:14Pursue peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no one will see the Lord. 15See to it that no one comes short of the grace of God; that no root of bitterness springing up causes trouble, and by it many be defiled; 16that there be no immoral or godless person like Esau, who sold his own birthright for a single meal.17For you know that even afterwards, when he desired to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no place for repentance, though he sought for it with tears.[/QUOTE]

Summary
Those who hear God's voice to put to death the deeds of the body and shrink back are in a category of never being able to enter God's rest. God tested them with withholding of water and then provided. Similarly with food. This was proof enough of God's ability to bring into His rest. Believers should trust God and start on the task of putting to death that which stood between them and rest.


In the case of the believers mentioned in Hebrews, they were Jews who had become Christians. They underwent fiery trials, as if something strange was happening to them. They should have realised that it was God testing them, understood by reading the Scriptures which were written for their benefit, showing parallel situations . Instead they thought they were facing God's wrath and wanted to revert back to Judaism, as Israel had wanted to go back to Egypt.

God had already confirmed their justification with signs and miracles:

Galatians 3:5So then, does He who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?

Having tasted His gifts, parallel to Israel seeing God's powerful rescue, to revert back to Judaism was to proclaim Christ had not been sent, that Jesus was an imposter.

Hebrews 6:4For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

Rushing Jaws
02-14-2015, 09:52 PM
You are right, we cannot know for sure about anyone else but ourselves.

Paul's advice, "Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, . . . " -- 2 Corinthians 13:5.## I would question whether we can know even about ourselves. ISTM one can have a high degree of testable moral certainty about one's condition at a given time, but that one cannot use the results to make predictions about one's status in the future.
God may see one as saved, being saved, to be saved - it does not follow one can use this knowledge oneself, because no-one knows perfectly the state of his soul, so cannot see all the corruption in him, nor how it may yet destroy him, or at least cause him to fall. I think it's much better to take the attention away from self, and put it back on Christ. That way one can avoid neurotic self-absorption & tying oneself in knots.

footwasher
02-14-2015, 10:06 PM
## I would question whether we can know even about ourselves. ISTM one can have a high degree of testable moral certainty about one's condition at a given time, but that one cannot use the results to make predictions about one's status in the future.
God may see one as saved, being saved, to be saved - it does not follow one can use this knowledge oneself, because no-one knows perfectly the state of his soul, so cannot see all the corruption in him, nor how it may yet destroy him, or at least cause him to fall. I think it's much better to take the attention away from self, and put it back on Christ. That way one can avoid neurotic self-absorption & tying oneself in knots.

http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showthread.php?5389-Question-for-church-goin-Christians&p=159575&viewfull=1#post159575

Wrong. Paul fears he will, after ensuring others have been sanctified, himself lose the prize, so he beats his body to ensure he enters rest. His success is recorded here:

2 Timothy 4:6For I am already being poured out as a drink offering, and the time of my departure has come.7I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith.

Phillipians 2:17But even if I am being poured out as a drink offering upon the sacrifice and service of your faith, I rejoice and share my joy with you all.

Rushing Jaws
02-14-2015, 10:09 PM
This may be something of a sidetrack, but it is related.

I am one of those horrid folks who believe that there is no such thing as an ex-Christian. In support of this let me tell you of two men I know of, one more intimately than the other. These two men were pastors in Christian churches. One spent his life as a pastor and ultimately retired. Both of these men, after preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ for years, came to the realization that their sincerity and experience was misleading. These were honest faithful men. One of them led a friend of mine to salvation in Christ. Both of these men thought they were real Christians until they were actually saved. So if it offends you that I do not count active and ardent behavior as real salvation so be it. If you are not a Christian now, you never were.## That may be their experience - but why must it be everyone else's too ? After all, every single one of us has a conscience of his own - the human race does not share one corporate conscience. if different Christians can be laid hold on by God in different ways, & can differ in graces, talents & opportunities - why can some not be Christian, and fall, while others stand ? God is Faithful - it does not follow that men are.

Rushing Jaws
02-14-2015, 10:15 PM
http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showthread.php?5389-Question-for-church-goin-Christians&p=159575&viewfull=1#post159575

Wrong. Paul fears he will, after ensuring others have been sanctified, himself lose the prize, so he beats his body to ensure he enters rest. His success is recorded here:

2 Timothy 4:6For I am already being poured out as a drink offering, and the time of my departure has come.7I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith.

Phillipians 2:17But even if I am being poured out as a drink offering upon the sacrifice and service of your faith, I rejoice and share my joy with you all.## That is St Paul. Neither passage claims to be a universally-applicable description of all God's People under both Covenants, or even of Christians alone. There is no sign in either text that his testimony need be valid for all Christians everywhere for all time to come.

Rushing Jaws
02-14-2015, 10:31 PM
IMO the language of the NT points to salvation as a continuing procss, not a point event. English translations tend to obscure this entirely. Thus in this life, when following Christ, one is being saved; when one is not following Christ, one is not being saved. Though we are faithless, still He is faithful (2 Tim 2:13). If anyone repents and turns to Christ, he is being saved. That possibility is there at least until death. I think these men confused a new, deeper understanding of Christianity with a salvation event.## Since English has the resources to render the distinctions, it's disappointing if the translations don't do justice to them.

STM that this three-stage distinction is essential to NT theology. Jesus is:

the Messiah Who has come - in the past
the Messiah Who is the Coming One - in the present
the Messiah Who is to come - in the future at the Last Day.

All as in Revelation 1.7-8:

7 (http://biblehub.com/revelation/1-7.htm) BEHOLD, HE IS COMING WITH THE CLOUDS, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen.
8 (http://biblehub.com/revelation/1-8.htm) “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”

http://biblehub.com/nasb/revelation/1.htm

## And the Kingdom seems to be talked about in the same way: it is "among you", "at hand", "to come". So it would make sense if the salvation of men, which is a work of the Kingdom & a sign of its presence, were spoken of in the same way.

Paprika
02-14-2015, 10:48 PM
IMO the language of the NT points to salvation as a continuing process, not a point event. English translations tend to obscure this entirely. Thus in this life, when following Christ, one is being saved; when one is not following Christ, one is not being saved. Though we are faithless, still He is faithful (2 Tim 2:13). If anyone repents and turns to Christ, he is being saved. That possibility is there at least until death. I think these men confused a new, deeper understanding of Christianity with a salvation event.
It should also be noted that salvation is being saved from more than one thing, including the kingdom of darkness (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Colossians+1%3A13&version=ESV) (past), Satan (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+6%3A13&version=ESV) (present continuous), and the wrath of God (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+5%3A9&version=ESV) (future).

Paprika
02-14-2015, 11:06 PM
## Since English has the resources to render the distinctions, it's disappointing if the translations don't do justice to them.
Translations aren't really to blame as much as the sloppy popular usage of 'salvation' that glosses over its complexities in Scripture; similar things could be said about 'justification' (which is incidentally not equivalent to salvation). It doesn't help that there's a strong stream of Protestant thought that is rather resistant to the role of 'works' in all of justification and salvation that completely ignores the tenses in the relevant passages usually cited.

footwasher
02-15-2015, 01:14 AM
## That is St Paul. Neither passage claims to be a universally-applicable description of all God's People under both Covenants, or even of Christians alone. There is no sign in either text that his testimony need be valid for all Christians everywhere for all time to come.

Actually, there IS a way to know if a person is a completed Christian. As Paul stands before his listeners, his wish is that they be like him in all ways except for his chains. He has been made right with God through Christ and he wishes for the same for all his readers.

IOW, it isn’t a goal that is set ONLY for Paul.

Acts 26:29And Paul said, "I would wish to God, that whether in a short or long time, not only you, but also all who hear me this day, might become such as I am, except for these chains."



2 Corinthians 5:21For God made Christ, who never sinned, to be the offering for our sin, so that we could be made right with God through Christ.

http://ntwrightpage.com/Wright_Becoming_Righteousness.pdf

Quote
Third, this reading of 5:21 has tied it in quite tightly, I think, to the whole argument of chaps. 3-5. This suggests to me that, although of course the first half of chap. 6 grows organically out of just this conclusion, it is misleading to treat 5:19 as though it were the conclusion of the long preceding argument and 5:20 as though it were the start of the new one. When it is read in the way I have suggested, 5:20-21 forms the natural climax to the entire argument of the preceding three chapters, with 6:1 being the point where Paul turns to address a specific appeal to the Corinthians. They have, after all, already been reconciled to God (5:20); 15 now they need to be urged not to receive this grace in vain (6:1). Moreover, they now have a significant new motive to heed this appeal: the one who speaks is not simply an odd, shabby, battle-scarred jailbird, but one who, however surprisingly, is a revelation in person of the covenant faithfulness of God.

Cow Poke
02-15-2015, 04:29 AM
Actually, there IS a way to know if a person is a completed Christian.

Nope. Not really.

footwasher
02-15-2015, 04:50 AM
Nope. Not really.

You don't want to enter the kingdom of God and won't allow others to enter it?

Cow Poke
02-15-2015, 05:34 AM
You don't want to enter the kingdom of God and won't allow others to enter it?

That's just dumb.

Adrift
02-15-2015, 08:26 AM
## That is St Paul. Neither passage claims to be a universally-applicable description of all God's People under both Covenants, or even of Christians alone. There is no sign in either text that his testimony need be valid for all Christians everywhere for all time to come.

Hey Rushing Jaws, why do you use hashtags in your posts? It looks like you know how to use the quote tags just fine, so it doesn't appear that you use them to distinguish your writing from those you're quoting.

37818
02-15-2015, 09:21 AM
Actually, there IS a way to know if a person is a completed Christian. Well, there are two issues here. One, knowing about another. And second, as to what you mean by, "completed Christian."

Rushing Jaws
02-15-2015, 11:26 AM
Actually, there IS a way to know if a person is a completed Christian. As Paul stands before his listeners, his wish is that they be like him in all ways except for his chains. He has been made right with God through Christ and he wishes for the same for all his readers.

IOW, it isn’t a goal that is set ONLY for Paul.

Acts 26:29And Paul said, "I would wish to God, that whether in a short or long time, not only you, but also all who hear me this day, might become such as I am, except for these chains."



2 Corinthians 5:21For God made Christ, who never sinned, to be the offering for our sin, so that we could be made right with God through Christ.

http://ntwrightpage.com/Wright_Becoming_Righteousness.pdf

Quote
Third, this reading of 5:21 has tied it in quite tightly, I think, to the whole argument of chaps. 3-5. This suggests to me that, although of course the first half of chap. 6 grows organically out of just this conclusion, it is misleading to treat 5:19 as though it were the conclusion of the long preceding argument and 5:20 as though it were the start of the new one. When it is read in the way I have suggested, 5:20-21 forms the natural climax to the entire argument of the preceding three chapters, with 6:1 being the point where Paul turns to address a specific appeal to the Corinthians. They have, after all, already been reconciled to God (5:20); 15 now they need to be urged not to receive this grace in vain (6:1). Moreover, they now have a significant new motive to heed this appeal: the one who speaks is not simply an odd, shabby, battle-scarred jailbird, but one who, however surprisingly, is a revelation in person of the covenant faithfulness of God.## As you say, it's "his wish" - which AFAICS allows for the possibility that what he wishes for his correspondents & hearers, may not be fulfilled, or not in all of them. Since "they need to be urged not to receive this grace in vain", it is not impossible that they will receive it in vain. No words of the Apostle can replace their experience of God's grace - he cannot be faithful to it for them; their reception of it is irreducibly personal. And persons can be faithless, even though God is not.

There is also the complication that someone who falls away, may yet rise again. While still fallen, such a person may give no evidence of being someone who will rise again, and this time, persevere without falling. And conversely, people can have a very strong & productive faith, and "register" by every NT test as genuine, solid, sincere, & fervent Christians - yet be undone, and perhaps not be restored. The notion that a fallen Christian never was a Christian STM to take far too simple a view of human nature - it makes certainty that one is a Christian impossible, because for all one knows one may fall away. If salvation is not only an accomplished fact in the past, but also a present process & a good to be realised fully only in time to come, that seems to allow for the possibility of falling away - not because God is Unfaithful (!!!), but because man is.

That's why I think we should leave the question in God's hands, and trust to His Mercy to make up in us for all the ways in which He sees that we are defective; we are woefully skillful at deceiving ourselves, but we cannot in any way deceive Him. I think this kind of uncertainty is good for us, or for some of us, since the conviction of our own feebleness and untrustworthiness forces us to trust in God, & to rely on Him Alone for help. Maybe assurance of salvation would be deadly for some, but is just what others need.

Rushing Jaws
02-15-2015, 11:35 AM
Hey Rushing Jaws, why do you use hashtags in your posts? It looks like you know how to use the quote tags just fine, so it doesn't appear that you use them to distinguish your writing from those you're quoting.

## Actually, it is "to distinguish [my] writing from those quoting." Quotation are tags for quoting - not for stuff that is all/mostly my own work. It's not ideal, but I need to use [I]something to distinguish my stuff from that written by others. FWIW, that makes 2 or possibly 3 people who've asked that question. Is it ugly, unreadable, confusing or something ?

Adrift
02-15-2015, 11:44 AM
## Actually, it is "to distinguish [my] writing from those quoting." Quotation are tags for quoting - not for stuff that is all/mostly my own work. It's not ideal, but I need to use [I]something to distinguish my stuff from that written by others. FWIW, that makes 2 or possibly 3 people who've asked that question. Is it ugly, unreadable, confusing or something ?

Yeah, it seems unnecessary. The quote tags work just fine for most of us. I mean, I had absolutely zero issues distinguishing between your writing and mine or Footwasher's quotes in the above scenarios. Adding the hashtags just makes the posts look needlessly confusing. To be honest, and this is just me personally, but a lot of the time I tend to only skim over posts that are formatted oddly, or that are very very long. Just something in my mind is like I don't have to the time to try and figure out what's going on here.

Chrawnus
02-15-2015, 11:48 AM
Yeah, it seems unnecessary. The quote tags work just fine for most of us. I mean, I had absolutely zero issues distinguishing between your writing and mine or Footwasher's quotes in the above scenarios. Adding the hashtags just makes the posts look needlessly confusing. To be honest, and this is just me personally, but a lot of the time I tend to only skim over posts that are formatted oddly, or that are very very long. Just something in my mind is like I don't have to the time to try and figure out what's going on here.

All true, although I think the way Rushing Jaws formats his posts isn't half as confusing as some other posters here.

Adrift
02-15-2015, 12:02 PM
All true, although I think the way Rushing Jaws formats his posts isn't half as confusing as some other posters here.

Agreed. I've seen worse.

Cow Poke
02-15-2015, 03:00 PM
Yeah, it seems unnecessary. The quote tags work just fine for most of us. I mean, I had absolutely zero issues distinguishing between your writing and mine or Footwasher's quotes in the above scenarios. Adding the hashtags just makes the posts look needlessly confusing. To be honest, and this is just me personally, but a lot of the time I tend to only skim over posts that are formatted oddly, or that are very very long. Just something in my mind is like I don't have to the time to try and figure out what's going on here.

It's like some posters use "Adrift said...." and then "Robert: " to show their own words.... The QUOTE tags help out tremendously because they automatically include a hyperlink to take you to the source material, so you can see what the heck was being talked about. it's not unusual for somebody to do a PARTIAL quote, which could look damaging, but when you "jump" to the quote using the Hyperlink, you see what was ACTUALLY said and intended.

It just adds confusion unnecessarily to invent your own conventions. :shrug:

One Bad Pig
02-15-2015, 06:06 PM
It should also be noted that salvation is being saved from more than one thing, including the kingdom of darkness (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Colossians+1%3A13&version=ESV) (past), Satan (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+6%3A13&version=ESV) (present continuous), and the wrath of God (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+5%3A9&version=ESV) (future).
:hrm: Sort of. Salvation from one entails salvation from all three, however.

37818
02-15-2015, 07:16 PM
## I would question whether we can know even about ourselves. ISTM one can have a high degree of testable moral certainty about one's condition at a given time, but that one cannot use the results to make predictions about one's status in the future.
God may see one as saved, being saved, to be saved - it does not follow one can use this knowledge oneself, because no-one knows perfectly the state of his soul, so cannot see all the corruption in him, nor how it may yet destroy him, or at least cause him to fall. I think it's much better to take the attention away from self, and put it back on Christ. That way one can avoid neurotic self-absorption & tying oneself in knots.

I am of the persuasion that one can know with absolute certainty for themselves. If one does not, :uhoh:.

The whole reason I accepted Christ as Savior was on the premise of knowing for sure.

The principle is not difficult.

". . . In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began; . . ." -- Titus 1:2.

And it is promised further, ". . . These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, . . ." -- 1 John 5:13.

Please explain your problem with this.

Did Christ or did not Christ die for our sins?
Did Christ or did not Christ raise bodily from the tomb?
Did God or did not God promise, ". . . for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more?" -- Jeremiah 31:34?

footwasher
02-15-2015, 08:04 PM
## As you say, it's "his wish" - which AFAICS allows for the possibility that what he wishes for his correspondents & hearers, may not be fulfilled, or not in all of them.

When we choose, make decisions, we evaluate and then act.

God allowed Israel to evaluate his faithfulness and power. They failed to trust him. Finally the deadline was reached.

Today we have also had time to evaluate God's ability. The deadline approaches:

http://www.google.co.in/search?q=today+when+you+hear+His+voice+biblehub&gws_rd=cr&ei=32nhVJuLEOezmwXsqYCwDg

Hebrews 3:15 As has just been said: "Today, if you hear his voice ...
biblehub.com/hebrews/3-15.htm‎
Remember what it says: "Today when you hear his voice, don't harden your hearts as Israel ... Scripture says, "If you hear God speak today, don't be stubborn.

Hebrews 3:7 So, as the Holy Spirit says: "Today, if you hear his voice,
biblehub.com/hebrews/3-7.htm


Hebrews 4:7 God again set a certain day, calling it ... - Bible Hub
biblehub.com/hebrews/4-7.htm‎
This he did when a long time later he spoke through David, as in the passage already quoted: "Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts."


I can tell you that it's possible to see if a believer has matured or not. In fact in 1 John, we are shown how to do it.

37818
02-15-2015, 08:14 PM
footwasher,
Can you answer my question?
Well, there are two issues here. One, knowing about another. And second, as to what you mean by, "completed Christian."

footwasher
02-15-2015, 08:16 PM
:hrm: Sort of. Salvation from one entails salvation from all three, however.

Actually, that is a great take away from scripture.

Paul is not content to have only his spirit resurrected and already united with Christ's Spirit in heaven , (past) he worked to make alive his body as well (present):

Romans 8:10If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

To avoid an unfavorable judgment (future):

Mark 9:43If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It's better to enter eternal life with only one hand than to go into the unquenchable fires of hell with two hands.

Matthew 5:29If your right eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell.

footwasher
02-15-2015, 08:25 PM
Well, there are two issues here. One, knowing about another. And second, as to what you mean by, "completed Christian."

John says he knew the false believers because they went out from the assembling of the saints.

The believer can be completed matured only by remaining, and we see the completed Christian by looking at Paul.

Hint: the offering must be unblemished, righteous in God's eyes.



Acts 26:29And Paul said, "I would wish to God, that whether in a short or long time, not only you, but also all who hear me this day, might become such as I am, except for these chains."



2 Corinthians 5:21For God made Christ, who never sinned, to be the offering for our sin, so that we could be made right with God through Christ.

http://ntwrightpage.com/Wright_Becom...hteousness.pdf

Quote
Third, this reading of 5:21 has tied it in quite tightly, I think, to the whole argument of chaps. 3-5. This suggests to me that, although of course the first half of chap. 6 grows organically out of just this conclusion, it is misleading to treat 5:19 as though it were the conclusion of the long preceding argument and 5:20 as though it were the start of the new one. When it is read in the way I have suggested, 5:20-21 forms the natural climax to the entire argument of the preceding three chapters, with 6:1 being the point where Paul turns to address a specific appeal to the Corinthians. They have, after all, already been reconciled to God (5:20); 15 now they need to be urged not to receive this grace in vain (6:1). Moreover, they now have a significant new motive to heed this appeal: the one who speaks is not simply an odd, shabby, battle-scarred jailbird, but one who, however surprisingly, is a revelation in person of the covenant faithfulness of God.

37818
02-15-2015, 08:31 PM
. . .

To avoid an unfavorable judgment (future):

Mark 9:43If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It's better to enter eternal life with only one hand than to go into the unquenchable fires of hell with two hands.

Matthew 5:29If your right eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell.

That is under the Law not under grace. And then under the Law:
". . . Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are [these]; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told [you] in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God." -- Galatians 5:19-21.

Law or grace? The choice:
"Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting." -- Galatians 6:7-8.

"For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, [even] our faith. . . ." -- 1 John 5:4.
"He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." -- Revelation 21:7-8.

footwasher
02-15-2015, 08:48 PM
That is under the Law not under grace. And then under the Law:
". . . Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are [these]; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told [you] in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God." -- Galatians 5:19-21.

Law or grace? The choice:
"Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting." -- Galatians 6:7-8.

"For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, [even] our faith. . . ." -- 1 John 5:4.
"He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." -- Revelation 21:7-8.

Every covenant, agreement, has requirements and rewards.

The old covenant had requirements (glorify God for His promise of a future deliverance) and rewards: (safety instructions, Torah, Law).

The new covenant had requirements (glorify God for a present deliverance) and rewards: (user instructions, Gospel, Grace).

footwasher
02-16-2015, 01:59 AM
The problem with studying Scripture is that we have to depend on commentaries that are mainly word centric, grammatico historical based, ie they depend on linguistics, on lexicons that provide word usages from archaeological documents and help explain how a word is used in biblical times,

Since a word has divergent meanings depending on contexts, we really need context resources to help us choose the particular usage of the word chosen by the writer, and lexicons cannot give us those contexts. Often We import modern contexts to the words and misunderstand the text.

New archaeological documents have surfaced which give clues to the contexts of the biblical material. The new commentaries are historical critical depending on studies of ancient cultures rather than studies of words . They give information about what cultural models existed when the words were used and offer more choices of interpretations for us to consider.

Faith, grace and justification are not :


mental assent of the sufficiency of the Cross , leading to
removal from the jurisdiction of law, leading to
receiving righteousness from Christ


but:


actively being loyal to God by turning away from sin
being rewarded with the gift of the Holy Spirit, leading to
making alive of our previously dead spirits


Contrast this with John the Baptists’s requirements and reward:


actively being loyal to God by turning away from sin
being rewarded with the label of REPENTANT, leading to
receiving protection from wrath


Similarly, sanctification is not


mental assent of the sufficiency of the Cross , leading to
removal from the jurisdiction of law, leading to
receiving righteousness from Christ


but


actively being loyal to God by turning away from sin through the Spirit
being rewarded with the making alive of our previously dead body, leading to
becoming an acceptable sacrificial offering


The historical context of faith and grace

Let’s examine an event recorded in history in the time of Christ. Here we will see the model of the client patron relationship in action and find out where faith and grace play their parts.

Pontius Pilate was a commoner in Rome belonging to the Pontii family of the defeated Samnite tribe when primacy was won by a competing tribe of Rome. He joined the political party of a ruling tribe senator and helped in his election campaign. When the senator defeated his rival and won, he gave Pilate the governorate of Palestine. (Like Obama rewarded loyal campaigners!).

The client is an advertising agency, campaign worker, PRO for the Patron, supporting him in many ways: singing his praises, highlighting his good points, proclaiming the works he will do when he has been elected to office and empowered by victory.

When the Patron wins, he gives favours, gifts, grace: not to those who mentally acknowledged he was good and could deliver on promises and was worthy of electing and following, but to those who worked in his campaign.

Now after the victory, (the wedding feast) the client has a new job requirement: that of a salesperson, marketing agency. He must put on the uniform (wedding garments), demonstrate the products, gifts, grace, deliver results and convince more people to become clients.

Israel was supposed to sing God's praises (Jew means praiser of God), make public the oracles she received by depicting them through observing the Law. The observance of the Covenant requirements were like previews of the future acts of God to bless the world, similar to pre-launch press releases. These acts were the righteous acts of God, types for what He would do in the future, but Israel mistook them for a righteousness of their own, stumbling right from the start, needing God to send prophets to straighten them out, but they killed the prophets!

Observing the requirements made the faithful realise how inadequate they were to be God's People. That's why the publican was justified, reconciled, because he observed all the law and was crushed by his sinfulness, inadequacy, and God lifted Him up, because the Lord loves the humble. The Pharisee tithed mint and cummin and skipped the major requirements of the law, but was proud he was an observant Jew, (although he really wasn't) leading to rejection. By skipping the important parts of the law, the Pharisee had missed the part of the law that was a protector, a guardian, the part that humbled! Humility was the fruit the prophets were sent to collect as rent from the wicked tenants. (See John the Baptist’s faithful preaching of God’s requirement above).

Paul co opted the Roman client patron model to explain what Israel did wrong, rather than use the sovereign-vassal model of the OT writers, because he is in a Roman dominated world, so the paradigm is not strange, AND ALSO because the Patron could be seen to be dispensing gifts, grace, favours!

Sovereign kings would take decades to defeat their enemies, win victories and give resources to their vassals. Here, however, senators won victories every 5 years and empowered their supporters to in turn defeat their opponents in their own battles, right then, making it a better teaching model for the Gospel to be communicated, the Gospel of the New Covenant, with a greater glory than the Old Covenant, with the new gift of the Holy Spirit!

The Church, New Covenant believers, unlike Israel, publicise a post launch event. It is now not a preview of the Gospel of deliverance, it's a RE-VIEW, a user feedback.


The sacrifice predicted in the old covenant and fulfilled by Christ is the Cross.
The Sabbath rest predicted and fulfilled is the rest in Christ.



Observing the requirements of the old Covenant of Law, gave safety, protection from the wrath of God. The Law was a guardian. The old covenant had rewards.

Depicting the righteous work of God by observing the requirements of the Covenant of Grace, gave gifts. Grace was a gift giver. The new covenant had better rewards, greater glory.

Paprika
02-16-2015, 03:01 AM
:hrm: Sort of. Salvation from one entails salvation from all three, however.
Entails in what sense?

37818
02-16-2015, 06:15 AM
Every covenant, agreement, has requirements and rewards.

The old covenant had requirements (glorify God for His promise of a future deliverance) and rewards: (safety instructions, Torah, Law).

The new covenant had requirements (glorify God for a present deliverance) and rewards: (user instructions, Gospel, Grace). The New Covenant is the one God alone keeps. The only part man can have in the New Covenant is to receive it as a gift, not as any kind of reward.

footwasher
02-16-2015, 07:33 AM
The New Covenant is the one God alone keeps. The only part man can have in the New Covenant is to receive it as a gift, not as any kind of reward.

Show scriptural support for this view, please.

37818
02-16-2015, 08:58 AM
Show scriptural support for this view, please.

". . . Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. . . ." -- Romans 4:4.

One Bad Pig
02-16-2015, 09:22 AM
Entails in what sense?
Upon reconsideration, I perhaps should not have posted. The wrath of God is against the kingdom of darkness and its ruler, the satan. So if one is not of the kingdom of darkness, one is not an object of the wrath of God and one is not under the power of its ruler.

footwasher
02-16-2015, 01:50 PM
". . . Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. . . ." -- Romans 4:4.

The one who is uncircumcised, Abraham, is contrasted with the one who is circumcised maybe 430 years later and God justified the law keeping person as His part of the agreement/covenant of Law. Abraham was uncircumcised when God justified him.

It does not contrast one who does not turn away from evil with one who does turn away from evil.

footwasher
02-16-2015, 03:13 PM
Upon reconsideration, I perhaps should not have posted. The wrath of God is against the kingdom of darkness and its ruler, the satan. So if one is not of the kingdom of darkness, one is not an object of the wrath of God and one is not under the power of its ruler.

Israel left Egypt, Judas, Simon Magus, Ananias and Sapphira left following the world, on the promise of being led into God's rest. So it's possible to be out of the darkness without being immune from God's wrath. These are baptised believers being address here, whose spirits have been made alive and are seated with Christ in high places, advocating alongside him:

Romans 8:6For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

One Bad Pig
02-16-2015, 05:08 PM
Israel left Egypt, Judas, Simon Magus, Ananias and Sapphira left following the world, on the promise of being led into God's rest. So it's possible to be out of the darkness without being immune from God's wrath. These are baptised believers being address here, whose spirits have been made alive and are seated with Christ in high places, advocating alongside him:

Romans 8:6For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
:twitch: Just because someone is baptized doesn't mean they've left the kingdom of darkness; one can be baptized under false pretenses. And Ananias and Sapphira fell prey to temptation.

37818
02-16-2015, 05:24 PM
The one who is uncircumcised, Abraham, is contrasted with the one who is circumcised maybe 430 years later and God justified the law keeping person as His part of the agreement/covenant of Law. Abraham was uncircumcised when God justified him.

It does not contrast one who does not turn away from evil with one who does turn away from evil.

You are still arguing merit over grace. Which is a false gospel, BTW.


When God change Abram's name to Abraham, God add to the convent with Abraham.

"And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I [am] the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect. And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly. And Abram fell on his face: and God talked with him, saying, As for me, behold, my covenant [is] with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations. Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee. And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee. And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee. And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God. And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations. This [is] my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised. And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you. And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which [is] not of thy seed. And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which [is] not of thy seed. He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant. And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant. . . ."

While the promise was made to Abraham and his seed 430 years before the Law, the covenant of circumcision was given to Abraham 406 years before the Law.

footwasher
02-16-2015, 09:11 PM
Delinking reward from merit makes nonsensical all those texts in Scripture that shows this happening. See merit receiving reward here:

Romans 8:13For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

footwasher
02-16-2015, 09:17 PM
:twitch: Just because someone is baptized doesn't mean they've left the kingdom of darkness; one can be baptized under false pretenses. And Ananias and Sapphira fell prey to temptation.

Israel traded the slave food of Egypt for the promise of milk and honey. Judas, Simon Magus, A & S traded working for worldy reward for reward in heaven. They should have persevered.

Cow Poke
02-17-2015, 04:25 AM
Israel traded the slave food of Egypt for the promise of milk and honey.

PARTLY true.

Adrift
02-17-2015, 05:14 AM
Are we talking about the same Simon Magus that was later accused by the early church fathers of founding the Gnostic cult called Simonianism, and whose disciples may have included Marcion?

37818
02-17-2015, 05:53 AM
Delinking reward from merit makes nonsensical all those texts in Scripture that shows this happening. See merit receiving reward here:

Romans 8:13For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
Again, "according to the flesh" is a matter of merit. "By the Spirit" is wholy of grace. "The deeds," merit, "of the body," that meaning the flesh.

One Bad Pig
02-17-2015, 09:12 AM
Are we talking about the same Simon Magus that was later accused by the early church fathers of founding the Gnostic cult called Simonianism, and whose disciples may have included Marcion?

Yes.

footwasher
02-17-2015, 11:09 AM
Again, "according to the flesh" is a matter of merit. "By the Spirit" is wholy of grace. "The deeds," merit, "of the body," that meaning the flesh.


Romans 8:13For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

You understand Paul is setting off “flesh” against “Spirit”, but in fact he is setting of “live according to the flesh” against “put to death deeds of the body”. The METHOD of putting to death the deeds of the body is “by the Spirit”.

IOW "living according to the flesh" is set off against "putting to death the deeds of the body",

Apples to apples, actions to actions.

Not:

Living according to the flesh is set off against by the Spirit.

Apples to oranges, actions to methods.

The syntax is clear, the method in which the deeds of the body CAN be put to death is BY the Spirit.


Actually, the paraphrase could go like this

Paraphrase
Romans 8:13For if you live according to the desires of the flesh you will die, but if, by the Spirit which you received from Christ, you put to death the desires of the flesh, you will live.

Why does Paul use

"according to the flesh"

in one place and

"deeds of the body"

in another place?

To improve readability! Writers have long known that repetitious phrases are dull and boring, so they use alternate phrases, synonyms, to brighten up their work, improve the readability.

Example of using synonyms correctly:

http://essay-advice.papercheck.com/?p=52

Quote
4a) Hundreds of happy people were happily celebrating the happy occasion.

is improved by rephrasing thus:

4b)Hundreds of happy people were ecstatically celebrating the joyful occasion. (Use synonyms whenever possible; use the Microsoft Word Thesaurus.)

Luther thought the Jews were trying to earn their way into heaven by observing the Law when he invented the term “legalism”. That’s funny, because they were actually trying to muscle their way in without working because they thought they were entitled, because they were related to Abraham, the proof being their circumcision! It's like people trying to get into a "meet the General reunion event" by showing a photograph of them hanging out together with the General at a family reunion, when the real qualification was the campaign ribbon the General gave to the person for serving with him in battle, a justification ribbon, a sign of loyalty.

Jesus told them that God could make stones into Abraham’s relatives, so that was not what identified who were the people of God, it was those who had FAITH, loyalty, like Abraham!

Before Luther, no one ever thought about doing good deeds as being legalism! Luther made several other errors as well, translating "faith" as "belief", when it actually meant loyalty, thereby creating a whole new system of theology that was picked up by Calvin and the rest of the major reformed theologians. In attacking the sale of indulgences, buying your way into heaven, he attacked all ways that did not depend only on belief, when the writers of Scripture all taught loyalty to God, demonstrated by deeds, as the way to be accepted (justified) by God.

http://www.cresourcei.org/jameslaw.html

Quote
This perspective was basically adopted by the Reformers, especially Martin Luther and John Calvin. In fact, this misconception of the Old Testament understanding of Torah partly contributed to the difficulty that the Reformers had in distinguishing between their own struggle with 16th century legalistic "works righteousness" and the biblical perspective of torah as faithful response to God’s grace (see Torah as Holiness: Old Testament "law" as Response to Divine Grace). It was easy for them to see in the New Testament the struggle between Old Testament legalism and New Testament grace with the primary issue salvation by works or salvation by faith, because that was the struggle they were waging in their own historical context. Therefore, it was easy for Luther, for example, to see and emphasize not only the differences between the Old Testament (law) and the New Testament (grace), but also between Paul’s perspective seen in terms of grace and James’ views seen in terms of legal requirement.
Yet the reader would be misled if s/he stopped at this point of the intertextual conversation, for there is a far more impressive list ofsimilarities between the two texts. Paul and James agree that the "law" must still be kept in some manner (Gal 5:3, James 2:10). Paul and James further agree on the need to translate Christian identity into consistent moral behavior (Eph 2:10, James 1:16), behavior that is called "law" in James. The oneness of God is prominent in both authors (James 2:19, Gal 3:28), and in a stunning similarity both authors specifically claim that being an "heir to the kingdom" is linked with the promise of God (Gal 3:29, James 2:5). More importantly to this discussion both authors thoroughly ground the responsibility of Christians in the words of Jesus quoted from the Torah, Leviticus 19:18, "love your neighbor as yourself."

In one other interesting note, when each author is forced to respond to the most pressing issue of their respective communities, both Paul and James immediately turn to the example of Abraham and Isaac on Moriah (James 2, Gal 4, Rom 8, referencing Genesis 22). Far from existing in tension, the vast similarities these authors share suggest a common approach to the concerns and needs of the young Christian community.

footwasher
02-17-2015, 11:27 AM
PARTLY true.

You're right CP. My bad. They were getting royal food in Egypt:


Exodus 16:3
The Israelites said to them, "If only we had died by the LORD's hand in Egypt! There we sat around pots of meat and ate all the food we wanted, but you have brought us out into this desert to starve this entire assembly to death."

Numbers 16:13
Isn't it enough that you have brought us up out of a land flowing with milk and honey to kill us in the wilderness? And now you also want to lord it over us!

Psalm 78:19
They spoke against God; they said, "Can God really spread a table in the wilderness?


Hmm. Must try to brush up my reading comprehension.

Cow Poke
02-17-2015, 02:28 PM
You're right CP. My bad. They were getting royal food in Egypt:


Exodus 16:3
The Israelites said to them, "If only we had died by the LORD's hand in Egypt! There we sat around pots of meat and ate all the food we wanted, but you have brought us out into this desert to starve this entire assembly to death."

Numbers 16:13
Isn't it enough that you have brought us up out of a land flowing with milk and honey to kill us in the wilderness? And now you also want to lord it over us!

Psalm 78:19
They spoke against God; they said, "Can God really spread a table in the wilderness?


Hmm. Must try to brush up my reading comprehension.

Well, that and the fact that not ALL of Israel made it into the land of milk and honey. (I have no doubt you know this :smile:)

One Bad Pig
02-17-2015, 06:05 PM
You're right CP. My bad. They were getting royal food in Egypt:


Exodus 16:3
The Israelites said to them, "If only we had died by the LORD's hand in Egypt! There we sat around pots of meat and ate all the food we wanted, but you have brought us out into this desert to starve this entire assembly to death."

Numbers 16:13
Isn't it enough that you have brought us up out of a land flowing with milk and honey to kill us in the wilderness? And now you also want to lord it over us!

Psalm 78:19
They spoke against God; they said, "Can God really spread a table in the wilderness?


Hmm. Must try to brush up my reading comprehension.

:no: Slaves would not have been getting royal food.

This seems to me to be the equivalent of reminiscing about "the crispy bacon like we used to get before the war" while kvetching about the current food available. :shrug:

footwasher
02-17-2015, 07:37 PM
:no: Slaves would not have been getting royal food.

This seems to me to be the equivalent of reminiscing about "the crispy bacon like we used to get before the war" while kvetching about the current food available. :shrug:


Bingo!

rogue06
02-17-2015, 08:12 PM
:no: Slaves would not have been getting royal food.

This seems to me to be the equivalent of reminiscing about "the crispy bacon like we used to get before the war" while kvetching about the current food available. :shrug:
You take complaints about bacon not being as delicious as it used to be as a personal insult don't you?

One Bad Pig
02-18-2015, 06:37 AM
Bingo!
Ah, you were waxing sarcastic. Could you please not put the worst possible spin on a two-word answer?

footwasher
02-18-2015, 09:09 PM
Ah, you were waxing sarcastic. *Could you please not put the worst possible spin on a two-word answer?


That was the irenic version! The polemic would have been unpostable, by the new standards I've set myself:

2 Timothy 2:24The Lord's bond-servant must not be quarrelsome, but be kind to all, able to teach, patient when wronged, 25with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth


The problem of identifying Christians was increased by Luther's view on the place in a Christian's life of works of the law, good deeds compliant to law. He views them as a natural result of faith and confused the Roman Catholic Church, which labeled him a rebel not a heretic (Newman wondering if Protestants were saved by the mere fact of believing in the doctrine of salvation by faith alone!).

It also confused Protestants, at least the thinking ones, the ones who proceeded to the logical conclusions of Luther's view. The lazy ones just parrot "Saved by grace, not works! Anything else is legalism!", not thinking about how good works are manifested.

Does faith automatically result in good works? What if works do not ensue? What if good works are not the result of true faith, but an effort by a false professor, to imitate the fruit of true faith? Is worrying about false fruit an indication that one's faith is true? How do I explain the continued presence of sin in my life?


http://www.faithalone.org/journal/1997ii/Wilkin.html

Quote
Dr. R. C. Sproul is a very articulate spokesman for the view that assurance is not certainty. A few years back he described his own struggles with assurance, and in so doing he explained his view of assurance:

There are people in this world who are not saved, but who are convinced that they are. The presence of such people causes genuine Christians to doubt their salvation. After all, we wonder, suppose I am in that category? Suppose I am mistaken about my salvation and am really going to hell? How can I know that I am a real Christian?

A while back I had one of those moments of acute self-awareness that we have from time to time, and suddenly the question hit me: "R.C., what if you are not one of the redeemed? What if your destiny is not heaven after all, but hell?" Let me tell you that I was flooded in my body with a chill that went from my head to the bottom of my spine. I was terrified.

I tried to grab hold of myself. I thought, "Well, it's a good sign that I'm worried about this. Only true Christians really care about salvation." But then I began to take stock of my life, and I looked at my performance. My sins came pouring into my mind, and the more I looked at myself, the worse I felt. I thought, "Maybe it's really true. Maybe I'm not saved after all."

I went to my room and began to read the Bible. On my knees I said, "Well, here I am. I can't point to my obedience. There's nothing I can offer. I can only rely on Your atonement for my sins. I can only throw myself on Your mercy." Even then I knew that some people only flee to the Cross to escape hell, not out of a real turning to God. I could not be sure about my own heart and motivation. Then I remembered John 6:68. Jesus had been giving out hard teaching, and many of His former followers had left Him. When He asked Peter if he was also going to leave, Peter said, "Where else can I go? Only You have the words of eternal life." In other words, Peter was also uncomfortable, but he realized that being uncomfortable with Jesus was better than any other option!

According to this way of thinking, certainty is not an option. The very best option available is "being uncomfortable with Jesus."
__________________

Pentecost
02-18-2015, 11:35 PM
Are we talking about the same Simon Magus that was later accused by the early church fathers of founding the Gnostic cult called Simonianism, and whose disciples may have included Marcion?

Don't forget he invents simony... And maybe flew and was a powerful sorcerer; little less detail on that.

One Bad Pig
02-19-2015, 06:42 AM
That was the irenic version! The polemic would have been unpostable, by the new standards I've set myself:

2 Timothy 2:24The Lord's bond-servant must not be quarrelsome, but be kind to all, able to teach, patient when wronged, 25with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth
Good for you!


Does faith automatically result in good works? What if works do not ensue?
If you love Me, keep My commandments.
It will automatically result in at least an attempt to do good works. If works do not ensue, that's a good sign we don't have faith.


What if good works are not the result of true faith, but an effort by a false professor, to imitate the fruit of true faith?
Works do not save anyone. If one's works are done in an attempt to please God, then odds are quite good one has true faith.

Is worrying about false fruit an indication that one's faith is true?
I think that worrying about false fruit is unnecessary. People generally know when they do something what their motives are. False fruit is an attempt to please men rather than God.


How do I explain the continued presence of sin in my life?
IMO Romans 7:23-25 adequately explains that.

<on the lack of certainty of salvation>

IMO, someone who distinguishes between certainty and assurance is playing word games; they're essentially synonymous. I think that this is something that Calvinists in particular will struggle with, because they believe they can do nothing about it. Though, ironically, Calvin himself believed one could be sure of one's salvation. IMO Romans 8:16 shows that we can be assured of our salvation:

The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God

One Bad Pig
02-19-2015, 06:44 AM
Don't forget he invents simony...
I would somewhat disagree with this. IMO the term 'simony' was coined in an attempt to shame by association those who bought offices in the church.

footwasher
02-20-2015, 07:59 AM
Does faith automatically result in good works? What if works do not ensue?



Source: John 14:15 NKJV
If you love Me, keep My commandments.

So we keep His commandments because we love Him. Does that mean that we know we are saved because we appreciate what Jesus did for the world?


It will automatically result in at least an attempt to do good works. If works do not ensue, that's a good sign we don't have faith.

But I do believe Jesus died for my sins and was resurrected. That's faith by your definition. However, sin still plagues my life. So why is this happening?


S
Works do not save anyone. If one's works are done in an attempt to please God, then odds are quite good one has true faith.

Sproul is uncertain about his condition. He desires to do good works because he felt the lack. He expected good works to be a natural outflow from his mental assent that Christ died and was raised. Since it didn't happen, he did good works anyway, supposing that this type of good works would suffice. Now he is in a quandary. Suppose his faith was artificial, was not from belief, but from fear of going to hell. Really, Sproul has no way to discover or confirm what his motives are. What a predicament!

The text says that if we live according to the desires of the flesh we will die and if we are putting to death the deeds of the body, we will live.

So works do save us:

Romans 8:12So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh— 13for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

Is worrying about false fruit an indication that one's faith is true?



I think that worrying about false fruit is unnecessary. People generally know when they do something what their motives are. False fruit is an attempt to please men rather than God.

You said an attempt at good works was a good sign. What made you change your mind? Remember, authentic fruit is a result of mental assent of Christ's death and resurrection. False fruit is good works done out of fear.

How do I explain the continued presence of sin in my life?



IMO Romans 7:23-25 adequately explains that.

Romans 7:23but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members. 24Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death? 25Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.

Why is Paul thanking God?


<on the lack of certainty of salvation>

IMO, someone who distinguishes between certainty and assurance is playing word games; they're essentially synonymous. I think that this is something that Calvinists in particular will struggle with, because they believe they can do nothing about it. Though, ironically, Calvin himself believed one could be sure of one's salvation. IMO Romans 8:16 shows that we can be assured of our salvation:

Source: Rom 8:16 NKJV
The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God.

How?

One Bad Pig
02-20-2015, 11:41 AM
Does faith automatically result in good works? What if works do not ensue?
Then one does not have faith.


So we keep His commandments because we love Him. Does that mean that we know we are saved because we appreciate what Jesus did for the world?
If we appreciate that in word and deed, then I'd say that's a decent indication.


But I do believe Jesus died for my sins and was resurrected. That's faith by your definition. However, sin still plagues my life. So why is this happening?
Because you're still living in your corrupt body of flesh.


Sproul is uncertain about his condition. He desires to do good works because he felt the lack. He expected good works to be a natural outflow from his mental assent that Christ died and was raised. Since it didn't happen, he did good works anyway, supposing that this type of good works would suffice. Now he is in a quandary. Suppose his faith was artificial, was not from belief, but from fear of going to hell. Really, Sproul has no way to discover or confirm what his motives are. What a predicament!
As a Calvinist, Sproul has no control over his motives anyway. And what does God say about worrying (Mat 6:25-34)?


The text says that if we live according to the desires of the flesh we will die and if we are putting to death the deeds of the body, we will live.

So works do save us:

Romans 8:12So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh— 13for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
Without faith, works will not save us. And please note the tense of the verb 'putting.' We are not promised that we will become perfect on this side of death; it is, however, a goal to strive for (Mat 5:48).


Is worrying about false fruit an indication that one's faith is true?
It is worrying, which goes against Christ's commandments. Keep doing the works; there are occasions when one starts by doing something for the wrong motive, but by dint of persistence one's heart is changed so that one eventually does it for the right motive.


You said an attempt at good works was a good sign. What made you change your mind? Remember, authentic fruit is a result of mental assent of Christ's death and resurrection. False fruit is good works done out of fear.
I didn't change my mind. I would say that authentic fruit is a result of fear of and love for God due to Christ's death and resurrection. Fear is an essential component of this (Eccl 12:13 - see also ch. 5,8; 2 Cor 7:1).


How do I explain the continued presence of sin in my life?
Sin is a continued presence in your life because you're still living in a corrupt body of flesh.


Why is Paul thanking God?
Because, despite Paul's weakness and failure to always do what he wants to do, God is saving him anyway.


How [can we be assured of our salvation]?
That, I cannot answer. Only by listening for and to the Spirit can one find that out.

footwasher
02-20-2015, 01:48 PM
Then one does not have faith.


Sproul says there are people who believe they are saved, but those around them seriously doubt it.

These are people who have been baptised:

Romans 10:9If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

They have faith but have no fruit so you can't say that situation cannot exist.




If we appreciate that in word and deed, then I'd say that's a decent indication.

Again there are people like I have described, who have faith and believe a strange doctrine that they will eventually and inevitably produce fruit.


Because you're still living in your corrupt body of flesh.

So will my faith inevitably produce fruit?



As a Calvinist, Sproul has no control over his motives anyway. And what does God say about worrying (Mat 6:25-34)?

It says this:
"For this reason I say to you, do not be worried about your life, as to what you will eat or what you will drink; nor for your body, as to what you will put on. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothing?

What does worrying about provision for sustaining the physical body, an exercise condemned by Scripture, have to do with examining myself, which is approved by Scripture?



Without faith, works will not save us. And please note the tense of the verb 'putting.' We are not promised that we will become perfect on this side of death; it is, however, a goal to strive for (Mat 5:48).

Not true. This passage shows that if a person in the deepest jungle, does not have faith in Christ, through no fault of his own but because he has not heard of Christ, because he has not been preached to, but who does good works, will be found law abiding on the Day of Judgment:

Romans 2:14For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

And Jesus could not have offered an unblemished sacrifice. He put to death ALL the desires of the body BEFORE he offered it on the Cross. We are taught to be like Him, as we cannot share in what remains of His afflictions if we cannot do the same.



It is worrying, which goes against Christ's commandments. Keep doing the works; there are occasions when one starts by doing something for the wrong motive, but by dint of persistence one's heart is changed so that one eventually does it for the right motive.

Rather its an indication about the incoherence of Calvinism. It requires a check to be made for bad fruit, when scripture says there are NO checks against ANY fruit:

Galatians 5:22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.



I didn't change my mind. I would say that authentic fruit is a result of fear of and love for God due to Christ's death and resurrection. Fear is an essential component of this (Eccl 12:13 - see also ch. 5,8; 2 Cor 7:1).

I think I have clarified the view. There is no such thing as false fruit.



Sin is a continued presence in your life because you're still living in a corrupt body of flesh.

However, we have the gift of the Spirit.



Because, despite Paul's weakness and failure to always do what he wants to do, God is saving him anyway.

Not so. God does not save unless we put to death the desires of the body through the gift of the Spirit. That is why Paul thanks God. Because of the gift.



That, I cannot answer. Only by listening for and to the Spirit can one find that out.

Has the Spirit confirmed it to you through words yet? Rather is it not those who are LED by God to put to death the desires of the flesh who are confirmed to be sons of God?

Romans 8:12So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh— 13for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. 15For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, “Abba! Father!” 16The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, 17and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him.

Encapsulated
Those who believe that Christ has removed the curse of the law are saved

Those who are free are saved

Those who know they can choose to serve sin and die, or choose to serve Christ and live are saved

Those who choose to serve Christ are saved

37818
02-21-2015, 05:43 AM
Those who choose to serve Christ are savedRather, those who are saved choose to serve Christ.

Cow Poke
02-21-2015, 05:44 AM
CHRISTIANS are Christians! Peoples is peoples!

:smile:

One Bad Pig
02-21-2015, 06:04 AM
Sproul says there are people who believe they are saved, but those around them seriously doubt it.

These are people who have been baptised:

Romans 10:9If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

They have faith but have no fruit so you can't say that situation cannot exist.



Again there are people like I have described, who have faith and believe a strange doctrine that they will eventually and inevitably produce fruit.

So will my faith inevitably produce fruit?



It says this:
"For this reason I say to you, do not be worried about your life, as to what you will eat or what you will drink; nor for your body, as to what you will put on. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothing?

What does worrying about provision for sustaining the physical body, an exercise condemned by Scripture, have to do with examining myself, which is approved by Scripture?



Not true. This passage shows that if a person in the deepest jungle, does not have faith in Christ, through no fault of his own but because he has not heard of Christ, because he has not been preached to, but who does good works, will be found law abiding on the Day of Judgment:

Romans 2:14For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

And Jesus could not have offered an unblemished sacrifice. He put to death ALL the desires of the body BEFORE he offered it on the Cross. We are taught to be like Him, as we cannot share in what remains of His afflictions if we cannot do the same.



Rather its an indication about the incoherence of Calvinism. It requires a check to be made for bad fruit, when scripture says there are NO checks against ANY fruit:

Galatians 5:22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.



I think I have clarified the view. There is no such thing as false fruit.



However, we have the gift of the Spirit.



Not so. God does not save unless we put to death the desires of the body through the gift of the Spirit. That is why Paul thanks God. Because of the gift.



Has the Spirit confirmed it to you through words yet? Rather is it not those who are LED by God to put to death the desires of the flesh who are confirmed to be sons of God?

Romans 8:12So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh— 13for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. 15For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, “Abba! Father!” 16The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, 17and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him.

Encapsulated
Those who believe that Christ has removed the curse of the law are saved

Those who are free are saved

Those who know they can choose to serve sin and die, or choose to serve Christ and live are saved

Those who choose to serve Christ are saved
Before I answer this (as I don't have time at the moment), I'd like you to answer this: Do YOU still sin? If yes, does that mean you are not saved?

footwasher
02-21-2015, 09:40 AM
Before I answer this (as I don't have time at the moment), I'd like you to answer this: Do YOU still sin? If yes, does that mean you are not saved?

My spirit has already been made alive and is now with Christ in high places (Eph 2:6). Israel wandered in the desert for 40 years but their sandals never wore out. Gods gifts and calling can never be revoked.

Now our bodies remain to be made alive through putting to death the desires of the flesh. Those who continually put to death the deeds of the body by the Spirit are without sin. It's an attitude, not a state:

1 Peter4:1Therefore, since Christ has suffered in the flesh, arm yourselves also with the same purpose, because he who has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin, 2so as to live the rest of the time in the flesh no longer for the lusts of men, but for the will of God.

One Bad Pig
02-22-2015, 05:29 PM
My spirit has already been made alive and is now with Christ in high places (Eph 2:6). Israel wandered in the desert for 40 years but their sandals never wore out. Gods gifts and calling can never be revoked.

Now our bodies remain to be made alive through putting to death the desires of the flesh. Those who continually put to death the deeds of the body by the Spirit are without sin. It's an attitude, not a state:

1 Peter4:1Therefore, since Christ has suffered in the flesh, arm yourselves also with the same purpose, because he who has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin, 2so as to live the rest of the time in the flesh no longer for the lusts of men, but for the will of God.
So you... refuse to acknowledge your sin?

Are you better than Paul, who said, "Christ came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief"? (1 Tim 1:15)

Are the words of James not in your canon?

Confess your trespasses to one another...

It seems our views are mutually incompatible. I see little further point in continuing this, because there is no arguing with the blind who do not wish to see (John 9:41).

footwasher
02-22-2015, 07:55 PM
So you... refuse to acknowledge your sin?

Are you better than Paul, who said, "Christ came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief"? (1 Tim 1:15)

Are the words of James not in your canon?

Confess your trespasses to one another...

It seems our views are mutually incompatible. I see little further point in continuing this, because there is no arguing with the blind who do not wish to see (John 9:41).

Contrast the statements:

Whilst in this body, to receive a better resurrection, a resurrection that will affect both our spirits and our bodies, that will avoid the consignation of our bodies to hell:


We are required to share in Christ's work of being a sin offering (proved with Scripture)

We are required to be unblemished to be acceptable offerings (proved with Scripture)

We are required to suffer to be unblemished (proved with Scripture)



with the incoherent statement:


We will be perfected after we are resurrected (unsupported by Scripture).

One Bad Pig
02-23-2015, 07:04 AM
Contrast the statements:

Whilst in this body, to receive a better resurrection, a resurrection that will affect both our spirits and our bodies, that will avoid the consignation of our bodies to hell:


We are required to share in Christ's work of being a sin offering (proved with Scripture)

We are required to be unblemished to be acceptable offerings (proved with Scripture)

We are required to suffer to be unblemished (proved with Scripture)



with the incoherent statement:


We will be perfected after we are resurrected (unsupported by Scripture).
...your sin remains. You can't represent what I've posted here correctly, let alone scripture.

footwasher
02-23-2015, 09:53 AM
...your sin remains. You can't represent what I've posted here correctly, let alone scripture.

Here you say the sanctification of the body is a future event:

Quote

OBP wrote:
That's talking about the future!

http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showthread.php?5389-Question-for-church-goin-Christians&p=158472&viewfull=1#post158472

Cow Poke
02-23-2015, 10:16 AM
Here you say the sanctification of the body person is a future event:

I say it's an ongoing process. :smile:

One Bad Pig
02-23-2015, 10:56 AM
Here you say the sanctification of the body is a future event:

Quote

OBP wrote:
That's talking about the future!

http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showthread.php?5389-Question-for-church-goin-Christians&p=158472&viewfull=1#post158472
In which I am referring to scripture. IOW, my statement is nether incoherent nor unsupported by scripture. Further, why will we all be changed at the resurrection if we're already perfected then (1 Cor 15:35-54)?

And I agree with the poker of cows that sanctification is an ongoing process.

footwasher
02-23-2015, 12:30 PM
In which I am referring to scripture. IOW, my statement is nether incoherent nor unsupported by scripture. Further, why will we all be changed at the resurrection if we're already perfected then (1 Cor 15:35-54)?

And I agree with the poker of cows that sanctification is an ongoing process.


Did the Israelites murmur when faced with lifethreatening shortage of water?

Was it not God training/ testing them?

Did they not reveal their true colors, their disloyalty to do whatever God asked of them, promised to God at Sinai, at the time of taking on the Canaanites?

Did Joshua and Caleb not put to death ALL the desires of the flesh, including preservation of life and go forward into battle?

Did Jesus not put to death ALL the desires of the flesh, including preservation of life and go forward into battle?


Hebrews 10: 32But remember the former days, when, after being enlightened, you endured a great conflict of sufferings, 33partly by being made a public spectacle through reproaches and tribulations, and partly by becoming sharers with those who were so treated. 34For you showed sympathy to the prisoners and accepted joyfully the seizure of your property, knowing that you have for yourselves a better possession and a lasting one. 35Therefore, do not throw away your confidence, which has a great reward. 36For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God, you may receive what was promised.

37FOR YET IN A VERY LITTLE WHILE,
HE WHO IS COMING WILL COME, AND WILL NOT DELAY.

38BUT MY RIGHTEOUS ONE SHALL LIVE BY FAITH;
AND IF HE SHRINKS BACK, MY SOUL HAS NO PLEASURE IN HIM.

39But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.

Were all the obedient not rewarded with rest, Joshua with rest from his enemies, Jesus with rest from desires of the flesh?

1 Corinthians 15:42So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body; 43it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45So also it is written, “The first MAN, Adam, BECAME A LIVING SOUL.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual. 47The first man is from the earth, earthy; the second man is from heaven. 48As is the earthy, so also are those who are earthy; and as is the heavenly, so also are those who are heavenly. 49Just as we have borne the image of the earthy, we will also bear the image of the heavenly.

Heavens, man, how are the saints able to intercede in high places without being sanctified on earth? We can't share in what remains of Christ's afflictions unless we become unblemished like him.

Colossians 1:24Now I rejoice in what I am suffering for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ's afflictions, for the sake of his body

2 Corinthians 6:4 but as servants of God we commend ourselves in every way: by great endurance, in afflictions, hardships, calamities

Cow Poke
02-23-2015, 12:43 PM
And I agree with the poker of cows that sanctification is an ongoing process.

Actually, I should have said it SHOULD be an ongoing process.

37818
02-23-2015, 01:53 PM
Actually, I should have said it SHOULD be an ongoing process.

Actually sanctification precedes our faith in Christ. (1 Peter 1:2; 2 Thessalonians 2:13, 14.)

Cow Poke
02-23-2015, 01:55 PM
Actually sanctification precedes our faith in Christ. (1 Peter 1:2; 2 Thessalonians 2:13, 14.)

I don't think those verses are saying what you think they're saying, but I can't know that, because you're not really saying what you're saying they say. :smile:

Hesitations 2:15

One Bad Pig
02-23-2015, 02:00 PM
Did the Israelites murmur when faced with lifethreatening shortage of water?

Was it not God training/ testing them?
<snip rest>
None of this addresses my post in any way; it ignores it in favor of pushing your own private interpretation.

footwasher
02-23-2015, 10:43 PM
None of this addresses my post in any way; it ignores it in favor of pushing your own private interpretation.

If a single desire of the flesh remains, your entire body is going to be burned:

Matthew 5:30"If your right hand makes you stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to go into hell.

One Bad Pig
02-24-2015, 06:46 AM
If a single desire of the flesh remains, your entire body is going to be burned:

Matthew 5:30"If your right hand makes you stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to go into hell.
...which is your private interpretation. :thumb: With your criteria, no one would be saved. Pretending your sinful nature is not there does not make it go away.

KingsGambit
02-24-2015, 10:00 AM
Actually sanctification precedes our faith in Christ. (1 Peter 1:2; 2 Thessalonians 2:13, 14.)

It seems to me that all we can conclude from 1 Peter 1:2 is that God knows ahead of time who will be saved. :shrug:

Leonhard
02-24-2015, 02:40 PM
Who is a Christian? That's going to be a discussion about who can be properly assigned the term 'Christian', this can broader or narrower, depending on the context.

The real question is who Jesus considers to be His friends on Earth.

Paprika
02-25-2015, 03:53 AM
The real question is who Jesus considers to be His friends on Earth.
We're not the heart-searcher. However, one important question is who we should consider as Christians, because Christians owe each other mutual responsibilities due to being part of one Body.

footwasher
02-25-2015, 08:55 AM
...which is your private interpretation. :thumb: With your criteria, no one would be saved. Pretending your sinful nature is not there does not make it go away.

That's right, my views, presented in bits, now to put them together.

Paul says those who have switched loyalty to Christ have had their spirits revived, towards sitting with Him in high places:

Romans 8:10If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.

Ephesians 2:4But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

Those who put to death the deeds of the body will have their bodies revived, made alive, as well, and be able to function in a heavenly treasure earning mode, inheriting mode:

Romans 8:11But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you. 12So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh— 13for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. 15For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, “Abba! Father!” 16The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, 17and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him.


He beats his body so that even while helping others to succeed he himself should not lose the prize, eternal living,the making alive of the body through putting to death its deeds by the Spirit:

1 Corinthians 9:27but I beat my body and bring it into submission, lest by any means, after I have preached to others, I myself should be rejected.

That mode of living is the empowerment to share in Christ's suffering, possible only by being co heirs with Christ, through being found sinless:

1 Peter4:1Therefore, since Christ has suffered in the flesh, arm yourselves also with the same purpose, because he who has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin, 2so as to live the rest of the time in the flesh no longer for the lusts of men, but for the will of God.

Towards being an unblemished offering:

Philippians 2:17But even if I am being poured out like a drink offering on the sacrifice and service coming from your faith, I am glad and rejoice with all of you.

2 Timothy 4:6 For I am already being poured out like a drink offering, and the time for my departure is near.

One weakness continues to plague him. He prays to God to deliver him from this oppression and God tells him that His grace is sufficient for him, weakness becomes an advantage:

7Because of the surpassing greatness of the revelations, for this reason, to keep me from exalting myself, there was given me a thorn in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to torment me—to keep me from exalting myself! 8Concerning this I implored the Lord three times that it might leave me. 9And He has said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for power is perfected in weakness.” Most gladly, therefore, I will rather boast about my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may dwell in me. 10Therefore I am well content with weaknesses, with insults, with distresses, with persecutions, with difficulties, for Christ’s sake; for when I am weak, then I am strong.

This highlights two issues:

As long as we identify our sins through confessing to one another and putting ourselves under accountability, we have a correct and Scriptural horizontal relationship with our fellow believers.

James 5:16Therefore, confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another so that you may be healed. The effective prayer of a righteous man can accomplish much.

As long as the Spirit is not grieved through denying His conviction, His revelation of our hidden sins, we are IN good standing, in correct and Scriptural vertical relationship, with God.

We must not deny our sin, but must continue to acknowledge they exist, so that God can cleanse us:

1 John 1:9If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

One Bad Pig
02-25-2015, 07:21 PM
That's right, my views, presented in bits, now to put them together.

Paul says those who have switched loyalty to Christ have had their spirits revived, towards sitting with Him in high places:

Romans 8:10If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.

Ephesians 2:4But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

Those who put to death the deeds of the body will have their bodies revived, made alive, as well, and be able to function in a heavenly treasure earning mode, inheriting mode:

Romans 8:11But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you. 12So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh— 13for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. 15For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, “Abba! Father!” 16The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, 17and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him.


He beats his body so that even while helping others to succeed he himself should not lose the prize, eternal living,the making alive of the body through putting to death its deeds by the Spirit:

1 Corinthians 9:27but I beat my body and bring it into submission, lest by any means, after I have preached to others, I myself should be rejected.

That mode of living is the empowerment to share in Christ's suffering, possible only by being co heirs with Christ, through being found sinless:

1 Peter4:1Therefore, since Christ has suffered in the flesh, arm yourselves also with the same purpose, because he who has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin, 2so as to live the rest of the time in the flesh no longer for the lusts of men, but for the will of God.

Towards being an unblemished offering:

Philippians 2:17But even if I am being poured out like a drink offering on the sacrifice and service coming from your faith, I am glad and rejoice with all of you.

2 Timothy 4:6 For I am already being poured out like a drink offering, and the time for my departure is near.

One weakness continues to plague him. He prays to God to deliver him from this oppression and God tells him that His grace is sufficient for him, weakness becomes an advantage:

7Because of the surpassing greatness of the revelations, for this reason, to keep me from exalting myself, there was given me a thorn in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to torment me—to keep me from exalting myself! 8Concerning this I implored the Lord three times that it might leave me. 9And He has said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for power is perfected in weakness.” Most gladly, therefore, I will rather boast about my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may dwell in me. 10Therefore I am well content with weaknesses, with insults, with distresses, with persecutions, with difficulties, for Christ’s sake; for when I am weak, then I am strong.

This highlights two issues:

As long as we identify our sins through confessing to one another and putting ourselves under accountability, we have a correct and Scriptural horizontal relationship with our fellow believers.

James 5:16Therefore, confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another so that you may be healed. The effective prayer of a righteous man can accomplish much.

As long as the Spirit is not grieved through denying His conviction, His revelation of our hidden sins, we are IN good standing, in correct and Scriptural vertical relationship, with God.

We must not deny our sin, but must continue to acknowledge they exist, so that God can cleanse us:

1 John 1:9If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
Generally correct, but relatively few suffer in the flesh as Christ suffered (though in my experience, those who have been tortured for the sake of Christ and remained steadfast are indeed holy). I also think Paul would disagree with your assessment that he was perfect except for that one weakness.

footwasher
02-25-2015, 10:10 PM
Generally correct, but relatively few suffer in the flesh as Christ suffered (though in my experience, those who have been tortured for the sake of Christ and remained steadfast are indeed holy). I also think Paul would disagree with your assessment that he was perfect except for that one weakness.


Could it be that Paul's weakness is a stammer, like Moses, who needed Aaron to speak for him?

Paul believes he has the authority to be a source of living waters, words of eternal life, not by being perfect:

2 Corinthians 10:10For they say, “His letters are weighty and strong, but his personal presence is unimpressive and his speech contemptible.”

but by being sealed with God’s seal:

2 Corinthians 4: 11For we who live are constantly being delivered over to death for Jesus’ sake, so that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our mortal flesh.

It could mean that suffering is a sign that one has put to death the desire for self preservation, shrinking back. Intriguing...

One Bad Pig
02-26-2015, 04:59 PM
Could it be that Paul's weakness is a stammer, like Moses, who needed Aaron to speak for him?
:shrug: If it were important, I'm sure it would have been recorded. Moses didn't need Aaron to speak for him; Moses was using his speech impediment as an excuse, and God called him on it.


Paul believes he has the authority to be a source of living waters, words of eternal life, not by being perfect:

2 Corinthians 10:10For they say, “His letters are weighty and strong, but his personal presence is unimpressive and his speech contemptible.”

but by being sealed with God’s seal:

2 Corinthians 4: 11For we who live are constantly being delivered over to death for Jesus’ sake, so that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our mortal flesh.
Eh, I would say conduit rather than source.


It could mean that suffering is a sign that one has put to death the desire for self preservation, shrinking back. Intriguing...
:hrm: Suffering might be brought about because love for the cause for which one suffers is greater than the desire for self-preservation, but that is not the only cause of suffering.

footwasher
02-27-2015, 06:13 AM
Now let's recap.

For a long time, salvation has been viewed as a scenario of believing in Christ, receiving His righteousness through imputation, being saved, bearing fruit, this confirming that the belief is genuine and then waiting for the resurrection of our bodies, towards full enjoyment of heaven.

This scenario misses out a very important element. Where does the promise to Abraham that his seed would be a blessing to the whole world come in?

Is this taken care of by the fact that the term fruit covers deeds that result in other people turning to God? Is this the extent of how we can be blessings to the world?

How about this alternative scenario:


Salvation can be viewed as a scenario of believing in Christ, as in believing in an ideology, a worldview, repentance, turning from working for superficial temporary treasure by serving self to working for substantive permanent (eternal!) treasure by serving God. Resulting in receiving the Holy Spirit which makes possible the task, formerly not possible, because of the weakness of the flesh, of serving God. Enabled by the Spirit, believers are empowered to pass training and testing, strange trials, suffering sent by God, to demonstrate His ability to help in the future task.


Now, the task of being a blessing to the world is given, denoted in Scripture by the term "call". This involves preaching Christ and His crucifixion, a foolish message, guaranteed to bring on persecution, as shown by the suffering endured by the Apostles. God showing His confirmation of the message through signs and wonders, what Paul calls the power of the Gospel, which he does not want to rob it off, by substituting it with high philosophy.


Let's keep in mind that this courageous task has been made possible by the giving of the Spirit.


Let's also remember that this is an active work of God, His faithful keeping of His Covenantal promise.


Through the sacrifice of His Son as a sin offering, Paul has been given the Holy Spirit, resulting in becoming the embodiment of God's covenantal faithfulness.


Now he has become a source of life giving, "living" waters, of words of life, through surviving murderous attacks on his life, bearing marks of those attacks, confirming his ambassadorship of God's message.


Those marks rather than being a demerit, are now buttressing his message, giving it more credibility, towards life giving action for his hearers, and death for him, interestingly towards a better resurrection for him.


http://www.google.co.in/search?q=2+cor+5:21+n+t+wright&gws_rd=cr&ei=uHrwVLjUEIixuASQh4DgBg


Quote

Th i r d , t h i s r e a d i n g o f 5 : 2 1 h a s t i e d i t i n q u i t e t i g h t l y , I t h i n k , t o t h e w h o l e a r g u m e n t o f c h a p s . 3- 5 . T h i s s u g g e s t s t o m e t h a t , a l t h o u g h o f c o u r s e t h e f i r s t h a l f o f c h a p . 6 g r o w s o r g a n i c a l l y o u t o f j u s t t h i s c o n c l u s i o n , i t i s m i s l e a d i n g t o t r e a t 5 : 1 9 a s t h o u g h i t w e r e t h e c o n c l u s i o n o f t h e l o n g p r e c e d i n g a r g u m e n t a n d 5 : 2 0 a s t h o u g h i t w e r e t h e s t a r t o f t h e n e w o n e . W h e n i t i s r e a d i n t h e w a y I h a v e s u g g e s t e d , 5 : 2 0- 2 1 f o r m s t h e n a t u r a l c l i m a x t o t h e e n t i r e a r g u m e n t o f t h e p r e c e d i n g t h r e e c h a p t e r s , w i t h 6 : 1 b e i n g t h e p o i n t w h e r e P a u l t u r n s t o a d d r e s s a s p e c i f i c a p p e a l t o t h e C o r i n t h i a n s . T h e y h a v e , a f t e r a l l , a l r e a d y b e e n r e c o n c i l e d t o G o d ( 5 : 2 0 ) ; 1 5 n o w t h e y n e e d t o b e u r g e d n o t t o r e c e i v e t h i s g r a c e i n v a i n ( 6 : 1 ) . M o r e o v e r , t h e y n o w h a v e a s i g n i f i c a n t n e w m o t i v e t o h e e d t h i s a p p e a l : t h e o n e w h o s p e a k s i s n o t s i m p l y a n o d d , s h a b b y , b a t t l e- s c a r r e d j a i l b i r d , b u t o n e w h o , h o w e v e r s u r p r i s i n g l y , i s a r e v e l a t i o n i n p e r s o n o f t h e c o v e n a n t f a i t h f u l n e s s 'o f G o d .

Cow Poke
02-27-2015, 06:16 AM
Th i r d , *t h i s *r e a d i n g *o f *5 : 2 1 *h a s *t i e d *i t *i n *q u i t e *t i g h t l y , *I *t h i n k , *t o *t h e *w h o l e *a r g u m e n t *o f *c h a p s . *3- 5 . **T h i s *s u g g e s t s *t o *m e *t h a t , *a l t h o u g h *o f *c o u r s e *t h e *f i r s t *h a l f *o f *c h a p . *6 *g r o w s *o r g a n i c a l l y *o u t *o f *j u s t *t h i s *c o n c l u s i o n , *i t *i s *m i s l e a d i n g *t o *t r e a t *5 : 1 9 *a s *t h o u g h *i t *w e r e *t h e *c o n c l u s i o n *o f *t h e *l o n g *p r e c e d i n g *a r g u m e n t *a n d *5 : 2 0 *a s *t h o u g h *i t *w e r e *t h e *s t a r t *o f *t h e *n e w *o n e . **W h e n *i t *i s *r e a d *i n *t h e *w a y *I *h a v e *s u g g e s t e d , *5 : 2 0- 2 1 *f o r m s *t h e *n a t u r a l *c l i m a x *t o *t h e *e n t i r e *a r g u m e n t *o f *t h e *p r e c e d i n g *t h r e e *c h a p t e r s , *w i t h *6 : 1 *b e i n g *t h e *p o i n t *w h e r e *P a u l *t u r n s *t o *a d d r e s s *a *s p e c i f i c *a p p e a l *t o *t h e *C o r i n t h i a n s . **T h e y *h a v e , *a f t e r *a l l , *a l r e a d y *b e e n *r e c o n c i l e d *t o *G o d *( 5 : 2 0 ) ; 1 5 *n o w *t h e y *n e e d *t o *b e *u r g e d *n o t *t o *r e c e i v e *t h i s *g r a c e *i n *v a i n *( 6 : 1 ) . **M o r e o v e r , *t h e y *n o w *h a v e *a *s i g n i f i c a n t *n e w *m o t i v e *t o *h e e d *t h i s *a p p e a l : *t h e *o n e *w h o *s p e a k s *i s *n o t *s i m p l y *a n *o d d , *s h a b b y , *b a t t l e- s c a r r e d *j a i l b i r d , *b u t *o n e *w h o , *h o w e v e r *s u r p r i s i n g l y , *i s *a *r e v e l a t i o n *i n *p e r s o n *o f *t h e *c o v e n a n t *f a i t h f u l n e s s *o f *G o d .

If you stare at that kinda cross-eyed you can see a picture of the Virgin Mary!

footwasher
02-27-2015, 06:32 AM
If you stare at that kinda cross-eyed you can see a picture of the Virgin Mary!

Have a heart , Chappie, I lent my laptop to a friend. Doing this on a smartphone is TORTURE!

Cow Poke
02-27-2015, 07:25 AM
Have a heart , Chappie, I lent my laptop to a friend. Doing this on a smartphone is TORTURE!

When you get back on a computer, stare at that block of text til you see the picture.

Leonhard
03-04-2015, 12:32 AM
What footwasher meant to write.

"Third, this reading of 5:21 has tied it in quite tightly, I think, to the whole argument of chaps. 3-5. This suggests to me that, although of course the first half of chap. 6 grows organically out of just this conclusion, it is misleading to treat 5:19 as though it were the conclusion of the long preceding argument and 5:20 as though it were the start of the new one. When it is read in the way I have suggested, 5:20-21 forms the natural climax to the entire argument of the preceding three chapters, with 6:1 being the point where Paul turns to address a specific appeal to the Corinthians. They have, after all, already been reconciled to God (5:20); 15 now they need to "be urged not to receive this grace in vain (6:1). More over, they now have a significant new motive to heed this appeal: the one who speaks is not simply an odd, shabby, battle-scarred jail bird, but one who, however surprisingly, is a revelation in person of the covenant faith fullness of God."

Rushing Jaws
03-18-2015, 08:41 PM
I used to be pretty black-n-white about this. I would say "there are only two kinds of people in the world - saved and lost" or "it's like being pregnant - you either are or you're not". An absolute binary dichotomy.

I heard Paul Little though propose another possibility -- "those who are still on the way". His point was that this gives an opportunity, when witnessing, to leave the door open to somebody who hasn't accepted Christ, but may be contemplating it. Instead of "pigeonholing" them into a "saved or lost" category, show them that it's a journey, and help them to figure out where they are on that journey.

I think a number of us have talked about the aspects of salvation -- I am saved, I am being saved, I will be saved....

But occasionally I see somebody say "[whatever denomination] are not Christians".

As I pointed out in a different thread (that inspired this one) I don't like to declare people "not Christians" because they align themselves with a certain group or religion or denomination. They may well be there out of ignorance, or because they were born into that, or because they're the spouse or dependent of somebody who's in that denomination.

I can only "know" that you (or anybody else) is "saved" by your testimony and your fruit, but only God knows your heart. Therefore, even in Pastoring, I try NEVER to assume that somebody is "saved" just because they're a deacon in my Church, or have been there "forever", or was "born in the Church nursery".

One of my favorite sayings is "if a cat climbed into an oven and gave birth to kittens, would we call them muffins?"

So, I guess the thread title should really be "who are WE to say who's a Christian and who's not".## STM that "being Christian" admits of countless degrees. Does the question mean "What beliefs count as Christian ?" IMHO, it is God's business, not ours (unless in a provisional & hesitant way) to say who is Christian. If a Mormon is more responsive to God's grace than a Catholic or a Calvinist or a Mennonite, our theologies need to take account of such things, rather than dictating to God whom He is to bless, & how.

The question seems to assume that the Christian life is static & changeless - but the NT often uses the language of growth, which is dynamic, not static. And maybe one needs to ask "Christian for what purpose ?" - failings that are tolerable in a Christian child, are less easily tolerable in a pastor. And the question seems not to allow for the action of the Holy Spirit over a period of time - someone who may be unChristian at a given moment, can change for the better, or the worse; and change back. God is constant - are we ?

Jedidiah
03-19-2015, 11:19 AM
I was saved, I am saved, I will be saved.

Cow Poke
03-19-2015, 12:39 PM
I was saved, I am saved, I will be saved.

Yeah!

One Bad Pig
03-19-2015, 12:49 PM
I was saved, I am saved, I will be saved.
I am being saved. By God's grace I will persevere.

Jedidiah
03-19-2015, 02:12 PM
I am being saved. By God's grace I will persevere.

Thru that same grace.

footwasher
03-20-2015, 07:15 AM
I am being saved. By God's grace I will persevere.

Where in Scripture is this teaching found, that God's grace automatically sanctifies?

Cow Poke
03-20-2015, 08:12 AM
Where in Scripture is this teaching found, that God's grace automatically sanctifies?

Try the New Testament.

One Bad Pig
03-20-2015, 10:49 AM
Where in Scripture is this teaching found, that God's grace automatically sanctifies?
:eh: What else sanctifies? I said nothing, by the way, about "automatically."

footwasher
03-20-2015, 05:46 PM
:eh: What else sanctifies? I said nothing, by the way, about "automatically."

You wrote, "By God's grace I will persevere."

Believers persevere through choice not through grace.

IOW, the teaching should be

By God's grace I will be successful in my attempt to overcome, choice to persevere.

Here are the choices:

Romans 8:13for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

That choice involves doing the following:

Gathering of the saints
Confession to one another
Prayer for each other

It's called walking in the light:

1 John 1:5This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. 6If we claim to have fellowship with him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live out the truth. 7But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.

8If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.


Then God is faithful and cleanses us from all unrighteousness.

IOW, God's grace ensures that that choice is fruitful. It does not ensure perseverance.



tt

37818
03-20-2015, 06:45 PM
Moderator's note:

This area is for orthodox Christians only.

One Bad Pig
03-20-2015, 07:17 PM
You wrote, "By God's grace I will persevere."

Believers persevere through choice not through grace.

IOW, the teaching should be

By God's grace I will be successful in my attempt to overcome, choice to persevere.

Here are the choices:

Romans 8:13for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

That choice involves doing the following:

Gathering of the saints
Confession to one another
Prayer for each other

It's called walking in the light:

1 John 1:5This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. 6If we claim to have fellowship with him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live out the truth. 7But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.

8If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.


Then God is faithful and cleanses us from all unrighteousness.

IOW, God's grace ensures that that choice is fruitful. It does not ensure perseverance.



tt
You're way over-thinking this. :shrug:

rogue06
03-20-2015, 07:36 PM
If you stare at that kinda cross-eyed you can see a picture of the Virgin Mary!
I got sizzling bacon :shrug:

Cow Poke
03-20-2015, 07:40 PM
I got sizzling bacon :shrug:

Yeah! In the shape of the Virgin Mary!!!! :yes:

footwasher
03-20-2015, 11:49 PM
No. Believers are persevered by God's grace alone through faith alone in God's Christ alone. No other way.
"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: the gift of God: . . . ." -- [I]Ephesians 2:8.


Saved conditional on loyalty:

For by the gifting of Christ are you saved by loyalty to Him, and even this is a gift, not deserved, because Gentiles and Jews are both unrighteous, not better than the rest of the world, in case you want to boast...



"For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, [even] our faith. " -- 1 John 5:4.

Conditional on loyalty:

For whoever is born of God will overcome the world, and this is the victory that overcomes the world, our loyal perseverance.


"He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." -- Revelation 21:7, 8.

Inheritance conditional to overcoming.

footwasher
03-20-2015, 11:59 PM
You're way over-thinking this. :shrug:

You'll be waiting till the cows come home if you believe grace ensures perseverance.

John Reece
03-21-2015, 06:12 AM
You'll be waiting till the cows come home if you believe grace ensures perseverance.

You underestimate God's grace.

37818
03-21-2015, 12:06 PM
Moderators note: For orthodox Christians only

footwasher
03-21-2015, 02:37 PM
No. You conflate faith with faithfulness [loyalty].

The word of God teaches through faith. Faithfulness is a work of faith. One is not saved by works of faith.


http://www.tektonics.org/whatis/whatfaith.php

Quote
Second, note that in very few cases is this form of pistis, as meaning a proof, in view. The meaning does give us a clue as to the nature of other meanings. It is often used as a noun to refer to the Christian "faith" as a set of convictions. In far many more cases the meaning intended is in the sense of faithfulness, or loyalty as owed to one in whom one is embedded for service (in this case, the body of Christ).

This now leads to an expansion of the pistis concept as derived from deSilva. As deSilva shows, the relationship between the believer and God is framed in terms of an ancient client-patron relationship. As God's "clients" to whom he has shown unmerited favor (grace), our response should be, as Malina and Neyrey frame it, a "constant awareness" of prescribed duties toward those in whom we are indebted (God) and the group in which we are embedded (God's kin group, the body of Christ).




No. God is the one who keeps.

". . . I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave [them] me, is greater than all; and no [man] is able to pluck [them] out of my Father's hand. . . . " -- John 10:28, 29.
That means not even self can cause removal from God's hold.


Non sequitur.

The teaching is that God is able to protect those who are pure of heart, His sheep, just as He protected Peter, who misunderstood Christ's mission, from Satan's claim on him, but could not protect Judas, who was not His sheep, not pure of heart.


No. God is doing the saving and keeping.

". . . Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, . . ." -- James 1:18.




He begat us with the word, meaning He convinced us to obey, through the word, reasoning. No mention of protecting the impure.

37818
03-21-2015, 06:34 PM
Moderator's note:

This area is for orthodox Christians only.

footwasher
03-21-2015, 09:32 PM
So what?

Pistis is the noun, not the adjective pistos, which as an adjective could be translated as loyal.

Actually, the noun you're looking for, is "loyalty" as in the quote from the tWeb blog, tektonics.org. As also here, in tWeb member Tercel's blog:

http://theogeek.blogspot.in/2006/03/patron-client-system-and-hebrews-111.html

Quote
Anyway, the take home lesson is:
Next time you're reading the bible and you see the words "faith" or "belief" read "faithfulness" instead and think "Patron-Client system = faithfulness repaid with favours". (Of course the result won't make much sense because it won't fit with how the translators have translated the rest of the sentence)

A great rule to keep in mind is this: Faithfulness is targeted at people, belief is targeted at ideas. You can be committed to a person, or committed to an idea. But talking about faithfulness to an idea, or belief in a person is nonsense.

Another example: Jesus says "believe in me". [which is a mis-translation of course, breaking the above rule] Jesus is asking for people to become his clients. ie he's saying "follow me". He's not saying "believe that I am God". There are other examples in classical literature of people saying "believe in me", and guess what, they were wanting clients, not claiming divinity.


Well, the pure in heart do not need a Savior. ". . . for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance." -- Matthew 9:13.

"Blessed [are] the pure in heart: for they shall see God." -- Matthew 5:8.

"The heart deceitful above all [things], and desperately wicked: who can know it?" -- [I]Jeremiah 17:9.

"Who shall ascend into the hill of the LORD? or who shall stand in his holy place? He that hath clean hands, and a pure heart; who hath not lifted up his soul unto vanity, nor sworn deceitfully." -- Psalm 24:3, 4.

"Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what his name, and what [is] his son's name, if thou canst tell?" -- [I]Proverbs 30:4.

"Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things." -- Ephesians 4:9, 10.

" And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, [even] the Son of man which is in heaven." -- John 3:13.

" For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, [which are] the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us: . . ." -- Hebrews 9:24.

". . . that we might be made the righteousness of God in him." -- 2 Corinthians 5:21.

". . . these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for [the sins of] the whole world." -- 1 John 2:1, 2.

The pure in heart are His sheep, who are His People, who John the baptist said He came to save from their sins, because of the weakness of the flesh.


It no where says that.


John 15:3You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you.

You expect everything to be pre-digested for you? You have a very flimsy, loophole filled theology, filled with mysteries and paradoxes. Better leave that kid stuff, and get with the program. To grow, you really need to get into the meat, the robust, all comprehending, all inclusive, totality of Scripture stuff.

37818
03-22-2015, 01:20 AM
Moderator's note:

This area is for orthodox Christians only.

footwasher
03-22-2015, 06:48 AM
footwasher,

One question for you: Would you say that you now possess eternal life?

Of course, mon!

37818
03-22-2015, 07:42 AM
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This area is for orthodox Christians only.

footwasher
03-22-2015, 11:05 AM
Do you agree eternal life possessed cannot be lost?

That teaching would be very attractive, even glorifying of God's work, projecting a powerful and effective gifting of eternal life, that not even the saved person himself can undo.

However that's like saying the traffic system in a modern advanced city is so robust even the most careless jaywalker or drunk driver can not bring it to a grinding halt. Eternal life in a person is in the hands of the person, just as keeping the smooth flow of traffic is in the hands of those who use the roads. If you live according to the flesh, you WILL die (Romans 8:13) whereas if you put to death the deeds of the flesh by the Holy Spirit, through fellowship, confession and forgiving of sins, and prayer, you will enhance your state of eternal living, till you receive your prize. Even Paul feared the stunting/terminating of his growth towards that result:

1 Corinthians 9:27but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified.

37818
03-22-2015, 07:41 PM
Moderator's note:

This area is for orthodox Christians only.

footwasher
03-22-2015, 10:02 PM
First, thank you.

Lastly, 1 Corinthians 9:27, I understand that to refer to being used in ministry.

Salvation isn't about going to heaven. It's about finally being able to be a blessing to the world, as promised to Abraham.

So eternal life is being able to minister.

Scripture calls it knowing God, and His Christ.

37818
03-23-2015, 06:07 AM
Moderator's note:

This area is for orthodox Christians only.

footwasher
03-23-2015, 06:52 AM
Hmm. . . . The only reason I am not an atheist is that I have eternal life knowing God through His Christ.

You had made the following assertion:

So how are you a blessing to the world?