Five Fold Ministry

[b488]

Has anyone heard of this term? It is used, I believee, in some Pentecostal (third-wave) circles. I am curious to hear various takes on it and some opinions from various perspectives. My understanding is that some have used this idea to organize church leadership. If this is so, is there any theologians or other types that advocate this sort of ecclesiology?

[JardinPrayer]

Here's the biblical reference they are referring to when that is said:


1 Corinthians 12:27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and severally members thereof.
28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondly prophets, thirdly teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, [divers] kinds of tongues.
29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all [workers of] miracles?
30 have all gifts of healings? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
31 But desire earnestly the greater gifts. And moreover a most excellent way show I unto you.

I attend a church that prides itself in being structured as a "five fold ministry." Can't say I find anything particularly wrong with it...though there is this other scripture that seems to elaborate on that:


Romans 12:4 For as we have many members in one body, but all the members do not have the same function,
5 so we, being many, are one body in Christ, and individually members of one another.
6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, let us prophesy in proportion to our faith;
7 or ministry, let us use it in our ministering; he who teaches, in teaching;
8 he who exhorts, in exhortation; he who gives, with liberality; he who leads, with diligence; he who shows mercy, with cheerfulness.

and this one from the same book as the first:


1 Corinthians 12:8 For to one is given through the Spirit the word of wisdom; and to another the word of knowledge, according to the same Spirit:
9 to another faith, in the same Spirit; and to another gifts of healings, in the one Spirit;
10 and to another workings of miracles; and to another prophecy; and to another discernings of spirits; to another [divers] kinds of tongues; and to another the interpretation of tongues.

My church calls itself "pentacostal" but I don't. Using the five fold structure seems like a fine idea...but not necessarily biblically commanded.

I think all the scriptures are simply telling us to search within ourselves for the gift(s) of the Holy Spirit and glorify God by developing and using them in His service...AND not to take on the virtues of others or think of ourselves too highly, rather as members of a greater body. I know the way our pastors (we've got about 12 of them) function is very much like that...each one has a clearly manifested gift and uses that gift to his utmost. Together, they make a complete church leadership.

Just last Sunday, however, one of our pastors who has the gift of preaching proudly proclaimed in his sermon that he has the gift of "helps" because he started out with the church cleaning the bathroom and setting up chairs and playing Jesus in the Cantata. "Helps" isn't part of the five folds, but it's obviously recognized as a valid gift.

I, too, would be interested in knowing how this works in other churches. This is my first and only church home since I was saved.

JardinPrayer

[JardinPrayer]

Actually, on reading that post again, I realize that the five fold is still not clear. In my church, this is how they delineate it:

1) apostles
2) prophets
3) preachers (pastors)
4) teachers
5) evangelists

We have psalmists and healers, too, but those gifts seem to fall to the pastors who have already identified themselves with one of the 5.

[themuzicman]

IMHO, the five fold ministry structure thing is just a way for people to assert for themselves authority and control over other people in the church, rather than seeing these roles as for the purpose of edifying the church.

I don't see any connection between these roles and the overseers Paul refers to in 1 Tim 3, other than possibly teacher, since overseers need to be able to teach.

Michael

[JardinPrayer]

Today @ 10:50 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=118343#post118343)
themuzicman:

IMHO, the five fold ministry structure thing is just a way for people to assert for themselves authority and control over other people in the church, rather than seeing these roles as for the purpose of edifying the church.
Michael

That isn't my experiece. The role of pastor already carries with it authority. The administrators of the church SHOULD have control of how it is run (though not of the people). My pastoral staff certainly uses their gifts to edify the church. If you have a gift, there's nothing wrong with proclaiming it and using it to glorify God.

The structure thing seems unecessary to me, but, hey, it's an okay model to use. My pastors CERTAINLY are not claiming they are the only ones in the church with these gifts. In fact, at our healing services, the teach us that everyone has the ability not only to heal themselves by receiving their healing from the Holy Spirit, but to heal others. They make a big deal about saying we don't need their hands on us to receive from God. I don't see an abuse of authority there.

Do you have a different experience?

Peace,
JardinPrayer

[b488]

Thank you for your responses. I appreciate them.

Jardin: I also thank you for the passages you cited and for your list of the 5 given at your church. You also mentioned that there are 'subcategories' under the pastor role. I am curious as to why it is felt necessary to limit these roles to five. It there any more basis for this other than the verses you cited? why cant a psalmist have their own category for example. (I think 'theusicman' might have a more favorable view of it all in that case :lol: ) I suppose I see (only on the face of it) that 5 is an arbitrary number. Any comments on this would be appreciated.

themusicman: Are you saying the structure is bad because it lends itself to people exploiting those identified positions to 'lord it over people' ? Or are you saying that the structure is bad in some other way? From what I see Jardin saying about it, they have a number of people involved in the leadership instead of very few more common in more traditional churches (a pastor, an ast. pastor. a couple-three elders, and a deacon or two if that) I see more opportunity for a smaller number of people to abuse their leadership than perhaps more looking out for each others behavior (one would hope, at least)


Ciao! :smile:

[themuzicman]

My experience has been that people who take on biblical titles start to get into their own power.

There is an appropriate role for overseers, and in most western denominations, the head overseer is called the "pastor". However, as a church grows, he's really the leader and head administrator, along with doing preaching/teaching in large corporate services. His "pastoring" is generally limited to staff members, who are pastors of other staff and/or volunteers.

Apostles, evangelists, prophets, pastors and teachers (and depending on how you read that, it could be 4 or 5 roles), function best when they can do their thing without their being formalized into a pigeon hole in the church.

Personally, I fall into the preacher/teacher mold (at least I think I do), but my ministry has varied from bible study leader to drama director. Not formalizing me allows me to bring my gift into any ministry situation where it may be needed.

I think when you start organizing around these 5 (or 4) ministries, you limit where they can go and be effective.

Michael

[JardinPrayer]

As for the "5," that seems to have become a popular list among charismatic churches (the "top 5," so to speak. As I said, I don't think it's necessary, but it seems to provide a decent model from the perspecting of a church being able to say all of those ministries are offered to their congregation.

Muzicman, I think I understand what you're saying. My pastoral staff doesn't really pigeonhole themselves, in my opinion. Our senior pastor is referred to as simply "Pastor," as in "Pastor has been considering..." This distinguishes him from the other pastors. He's THE pastor. He is also referred to as our Apostle and our Bishop, interchangably. I find this kind of amusing since I'm really not a label person.

Some of our pastors also carry the gift of evangelism, some of teaching, some of healing, etc. Though we have about a dozen pastors, each is assigned to one or more ministry. So, one pastor who preaches on Sunday morning is the pastor over the music ministry (and called a "psalmist,") another is pastor over the finances (the one who always takes the offering), one is pastor over the youth ministry. Most of them teach on Wednesday nights, usually in 10 week stints. One runs the Christian school attached to the church. So, I don't see limitations there. In fact, I think this is closer to what the bible is telling us to do...figure out where your gifts are and develop them to glorify the Lord.

To you both: Are your churches large and charismatic as well? We've got a congregation of about 4,000 and a big theatre-like sanctuary and get lots of community attention. Actually, I think our church would benefit from MORE organization!

Peace,
JardinPrayer

[b488]

Jardin: I have attended a Vineyard, but am currently with a Free Methodist congregation in central new york. It is rather small, but growing. The music worship is contemporary and lively, but maybe does not have some of the fervor associated with some of the charismatic churches. I believe that God gives spriitual gifts for the edification of the church. I have never spoken in tongues, so have no problem going back and forth to churches that do/do not emphasize them.

I have a question with regard to the position of prophet. What is that at your church, and what would that 'gift' be best suited for in a practical term (ie what sort of ministry would they be involved in)

Thank you for your responses again, to both of you.


Ciao :smile:

[DBoone]

Another reference, one that defines the purpose of the five-fold ministry is listed below.

Eph.4
[1] I therefore, a prisoner for the Lord, beg you to lead a life worthy of the calling to which you have been called,
[2] with all lowliness and meekness, with patience, forbearing one another in love,
[3] eager to maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
[4] There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call,
[5] one Lord, one faith, one baptism,
[6] one God and Father of us all, who is above all and through all and in all.
[7] But grace was given to each of us according to the measure of Christ's gift.
[8] Therefore it is said, "When he ascended on high he led a host of captives,
and he gave gifts to men."
[9] (In saying, "He ascended," what does it mean but that he had also descended into the lower parts of the earth?
[10] He who descended is he who also ascended far above all the heavens, that he might fill all things.)
[11] And his gifts were that some should be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers,
[12] to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ,
[13] until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ;
[14] so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the cunning of men, by their craftiness in deceitful wiles.
[15] Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ,
[16] from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by every joint with which it is supplied, when each part is working properly, makes bodily growth and upbuilds itself in love.

Hope you find this helpful in your discussion.

[JardinPrayer]

Yeah...that must be the scripture they're getting the five from. Thanks for that!

As for prophets, my chuch describes them as people who speak the word of the Lord through direct inspiration and instruction from God...particularly things about to happen. The important thing to remember is that there must be absolutely no contradiction to what a prophet is saying in the bible...that's the acid test for false prophets. We have "celebrity prophets" visit our church on occasion...The most popular is a fellow named Kim Clement. http://www.kimclement.com/words/words.htm
Our "bishop" prophecies sometimes...he most recently said he had a word from the Lord that there would be an assassination attempt on the President...don't know if that's happened, but I haven't heard of it.

Of course, our bishop has the gifts of Apostleship, Prophecy, Pastorship, and Teaching...probably Evangelism, too...I've just never heard him address the unsaved. So, hey...where does that leave us?

Personally, I am EXTREMELY skeptical of prophecy. My two checks are whether I can find a contradiction in the bible, and whether I can get confirmation by two others (the bible says prophecy should be verified by others). As yet, I have not seen a convincing example of that.

Peace,
JardinPrayer