What's the earliest recorded civilization?

[Darth Executor]

It seems strange that we have been around for about 50000 years yet we know so little about what happened during those years...

[Dave G]

This link says it was Sumer until recently, when Egyptian documents have been found to be older.

http://www.theology.edu/sumer.htm

[Cynic Sage]

This link says it was Sumer until recently, when Egyptian documents have been found to be older.

http://www.theology.edu/sumer.htm

Wasn't Mesopotamia "the cradle of civillization"?

[Dave G]

Sumer was in Mesopotamia, so was Akkadia and others.

[Minnesota]

If one takes the recognized definition of "civilization"


Civilization

1 a : a relatively high level of cultural and technological development; specifically : the stage of cultural development at which writing and the keeping of written records is attained b : the culture characteristic of a particular time or place

it isn't too difficult to see why nothing predating 6,000 BCE would be included. Civilizations simply did not exist before then.

[attachment]
SOURCE (http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Parthenon/2104/civilizations.html)

And, without writing to tell us about the life of primitives, all we have left are artifacts, and ancient artifacts were simply not designed to survive the effects of time. Plus, there were far fewer of them.

[CatholicSage]

Probably either Egypt, Mesopotamia, Indus Valley, or China. And out of those, probably a Mesopotamian one as has been said.

[Darth Executor]

If one takes the recognized definition of "civilization"


Civilization

1 a : a relatively high level of cultural and technological development; specifically : the stage of cultural development at which writing and the keeping of written records is attained b : the culture characteristic of a particular time or place

it isn't too difficult to see why nothing predating 6,000 BCE would be included. Civilizations simply did not exist before then.

[attachment]
SOURCE (http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Parthenon/2104/civilizations.html)

And, without writing to tell us about the life of primitives, all we have left are artifacts, and ancient artifacts were simply not designed to survive the effects of time. Plus, there were far fewer of them.

Sorry, but I find the idea that humanity lived in caves for 40000+ years ridiculous.

Take this for example:
http://www.morien-institute.org/yonaguni.html

Those structures are about 13k years old if I remember correctly.

I also find it equally strange that nothing but a few bones survive.

[Minnesota]

Sorry, but I find the idea that humanity lived in caves for 40000+ years ridiculous.
I also find it equally strange that nothing but a few bones survive.

Well, I certainly can't argue about you find ridiculous or strange. :shrug:

[technomage]

Sorry, but I find the idea that humanity lived in caves for 40000+ years ridiculous.

It doesn't mean that humans lived in caves ... it simply means that they weren't living in cities.

[bandecoot]

According to Stan Hendrickx and Pierre Vermeersch in "the Oxford History of Ancient Egypt" There are finds in the Nile valley that date back a lot further than 50KYA In fact they have found habitation sites 700 KYA.

But if by Civilisation you mean cities, You would have to go with either Egypt(predynastic) or The Fertile Cresent. Before that innovation you had mostly Seminomadic Hunter-Gatheres and a few Swidden Agriculturalists and Pastoralists. These groups even today do not leave much of a record.

The Sterkfontain caves might be something you might want to do some reading on however. The Clovis Culture in the US dates back 15kya and that could be something else to look at, or indeed the Indigenes of Australia at 30-40 kya.

[Cynic Sage]

It doesn't mean that humans lived in caves ... it simply means that they weren't living in cities.

What would br the approximate size of these cities?

[technomage]

What would br the approximate size of these cities?
Heck, the best answer most anthropologists are willing to give without argument is "Bigger than a breadbox." :hehe:

Seriously, if you have a settled group that's large enough for the people to develop specialized occupations (rather than everyone being hunter-gatherers or farmers), and where trade, food storage, and administrative control are happening, it's a city. Most of the first cities that we know about are in river valleys: the Nile, the Tigris-Euphrates, the Indus, and the Yang Tze rivers, though it's anyone's guess as to which one was first. Non-riverine early cities include Jericho, Mehrgarh, and Katal Hoyuk.

[FirstSunday33ad]

It seems strange that we have been around for about 50000 years yet we know so little about what happened during those years...

It was Sumer which preceded the Egyptian by about 1,000 years. The chronology is :

4,000 - 3,000 bce: Sumer (pre-historic and recorded)

3,000 bce: Egypt

2,500 - 2,000 bce: Akkadian/Sargon (Sumer II)

2,000 - 1,700 bce: Ur (Sumer III)

1,700 bce: Babylonia - Hammerabi

[FirstSunday33ad]

What would br the approximate size of these cities?

Ur of 2,000 bce was estimated by Sir Leonard Wooley to have had a population of 300,000. This was thought to be too much and a revised estimate of 150,000 to 200,000 is now the accepted level.

[bandecoot]

It was Sumer which preceded the Egyptian by about 1,000 years. The chronology is :

4,000 - 3,000 bce: Sumer (pre-historic and recorded)

3,000 bce: Egypt

2,500 - 2,000 bce: Akkadian/Sargon (Sumer II)

2,000 - 1,700 bce: Ur (Sumer III)

1,700 bce: Babylonia - Hammerabi


Actually You have the Naquada culture in the central Nile Valley 4000 bce. Badarian predates that by about 600 years. There is yet another one not yet named that may have preceded the Badarian culture or been the precursor.

But it depends on what DE is calling a civilisation. Does Organised Interment of bodies in a specific place fall under that Aegis? What about Serial settlements, in that the culture had 3 or 4 permanent sites used seasonally? Social stratification? Irrigation?

I am not arguing with you FS33AD, but I am not seeing any definition of Civilisation from DE, and as for that Japanese thing, if the Fortean Times is saying its a pryamid then it is a shelf of Fractured Basalt for sure.

I mean Japan is right on a faultline, you would expect there to be some Vulcanism.



Civilisation is not a simple thing. If he means cities let him say cities.

[Darth Executor]

Yes, I mean cities, as in all year round man made structure clusters.

[Darth Executor]

if the Fortean Times is saying its a pryamid then it is a shelf of Fractured Basalt for sure.

I mean Japan is right on a faultline, you would expect there to be some Vulcanism.


Are you saying those structures are natural?

[FirstSunday33ad]

Actually You have the Naquada culture in the central Nile Valley 4000 bce. Badarian predates that by about 600 years. There is yet another one not yet named that may have preceded the Badarian culture or been the precursor.

But it depends on what DE is calling a civilisation. Does Organised Interment of bodies in a specific place fall under that Aegis? What about Serial settlements, in that the culture had 3 or 4 permanent sites used seasonally? Social stratification? Irrigation?

I am not arguing with you FS33AD, but I am not seeing any definition of Civilisation from DE, and as for that Japanese thing, if the Fortean Times is saying its a pryamid then it is a shelf of Fractured Basalt for sure.

I mean Japan is right on a faultline, you would expect there to be some Vulcanism.



Civilisation is not a simple thing. If he means cities let him say cities.

You're right. My understanding was based on "civilization = cities". That would - as far as we know - be Sumer. But human group settlements obviously pre-date Sumer by 10's of millenia. A loose tribal structure on the Polynesian model could count as civilization.

[Ice Angel]

I heard that some of the oldest civilations were the Mayan, Incan or the Aztec cultures. Some of the temples and stuff have dated older than the pyramids and such in Egypt.

[bandecoot]

I heard that some of the oldest civilations were the Mayan, Incan or the Aztec cultures. Some of the temples and stuff have dated older than the pyramids and such in Egypt.

Sorry this took a while, I am not sure where you are getting your info from but it is about as wrong as it can possibly be. I would suggest that you read "The daily life of the Aztecs" by Jaques Soustelle. That gives a good general overview of the history Of the Aztec Culture.

You might look at a good book on the Mayan culture(2000bce {olmec} 900CE) but I cant think of the title of the one we used for that course at uni.

Sorry Ice Angel but your source has it very wrong.

[bandecoot]

Are you saying those structures are natural?


I am saying that if the Fortean Times say they are man-made then They are most probably not. I can offer no other info about them because I could find nothing online that was not some new age drivel or a UFO cult.

Short answer, I have no idea if they are man-made or not. But I tend to think based on what I do know of the area that its most likely a basalt formation.

[seekingmyway]

Ice Angel, I remember reading/seeing something about what you are referring to. I have notes on a video I watched regarding some discoveries in South America. Most of the discussion was regarding the fact that this discovery not only pushes the birth of civilization in the Americas back, but also raises new theories about why civilizations start. Some of the current theories was that war drove people to commune together, but the discovery of this new center seems to be showing that trade and commerce brought us all together.

I'll try to find my info with names and dates.

Misty

[Darth Executor]

I am saying that if the Fortean Times say they are man-made then They are most probably not. I can offer no other info about them because I could find nothing online that was not some new age drivel or a UFO cult.

Short answer, I have no idea if they are man-made or not. But I tend to think based on what I do know of the area that its most likely a basalt formation.

A basalt formation with nice geometric shapes and castles of a similar design nearby?

[technomage]

A basalt formation with nice geometric shapes and castles of a similar design nearby?

Can you say "Giant's Causeway?"

[bhukkadakota]

Theres also evidence of settlement in the sahara desert by a dried up river bed, because about 10 000 years ago apparantly sahra desert was fertile. They even found a sun dial on the ground. I think its thought this is where egyptians came from because unlike most civilizations where tribes became larger and formed towns and cities, the egyptians seem like they just burst into the scene already civilized. Anyway theres human remains of aboriginals in the middle of australia which dates to about 45 000 years. Thats pretty old.

[Darth Executor]

Can you say "Giant's Causeway?"

Sorry that doesn't come close to those pyramids.

[FirstSunday33ad]

Theres also evidence of settlement in the sahara desert by a dried up river bed, because about 10 000 years ago apparantly sahra desert was fertile. They even found a sun dial on the ground. I think its thought this is where egyptians came from because unlike most civilizations where tribes became larger and formed towns and cities, the egyptians seem like they just burst into the scene already civilized. Anyway theres human remains of aboriginals in the middle of australia which dates to about 45 000 years. Thats pretty old.

But can these settlements properly be called "civilizations"? A proper working definition of civilization should be something higher than a mere settlement of humans. IMHO it should include a law-code, central government, division of property and an established social order. Under this definition, the earliest civilization is the Sumerian which influenced succeeding cultures up to the time of the Romans. They beat the Egyptians by about 500 to 1,000 years.

Also, akey word in the OP is "recorded". The Sumerians were also the first civilization to develop writing and to record their theology, daily activities and myths.

[bandecoot]

Sorry that doesn't come close to those pyramids.

I have looked at the site maps on the website that you posted, and had a good look at the photos, I am still not convinced but I would like GRMorton to take a look. The other thing that concerns me is your dates, where did you get them from? A fault that sunk 2000 ya would be as probable. Where do you get 13kya from?

[Darth Executor]

I have looked at the site maps on the website that you posted, and had a good look at the photos, I am still not convinced but I would like GRMorton to take a look. The other thing that concerns me is your dates, where did you get them from? A fault that sunk 2000 ya would be as probable. Where do you get 13kya from?

I don't remember where I got the 13kya from, it was likely another kook site. The link I posted says 10k. I do remember seeing a documentary about other underwater cities that were way too far from the coastline to have simply collapsed. I'll see if I can find more on it.

[technomage]

Sorry that doesn't come close to those pyramids.
I didn't intend for it to resemble the Yonaguni structures ... I intended it to demonstrate a "basalt formation with nice geometric shapes and castles of a similar design nearby."

As for the Yonaguni structures themselves ... I'm rather of the same mind as Bande. I can see that the structures seem to be natural rock features that show definite signs of toolwork (architectonic features). What I can't see is any evidence of dating, especially in such a seismically active area. Yes, some folks may believe that they date to before the end of the last ice age ... but frankly, I don't give a rat's barbecued carcas what people believe. I wanna know how old the thing really is. :wink:

[Darth Executor]

As for the Yonaguni structures themselves ... I'm rather of the same mind as Bande. I can see that the structures seem to be natural rock features that show definite signs of toolwork (architectonic features).

Actually I'd say it's pretty much terraforming. I don't care if they were carved out of the environment or if they were made out of bricks, I just want to know if they were man made.


What I can't see is any evidence of dating, especially in such a seismically active area. Yes, some folks may believe that they date to before the end of the last ice age ... but frankly, I don't give a rat's barbecued carcas what people believe. I wanna know how old the thing really is. :wink:

When was the last age? The 8-10k year range that I've seen around the net seems reasonable.

[technomage]

Actually I'd say it's pretty much terraforming. I don't care if they were carved out of the environment or if they were made out of bricks, I just want to know if they were man made.

That's what is meant by the word "architectonic"--it's originally a natural stone structure ("tectonic") that's been altered by man for some architectural purpose ("archi-"). The Sphinx is an architectonic structure, because it was carved on a pre-existing sandstone outcrop. Stonehenge is not architectonic, because they had to move the stones to the site.

When was the last age? The 8-10k year range that I've seen around the net seems reasonable.

Last glaciation period was about 10 kya. The question that goes begging is whether or not it was glaciation that lifted the Yonaguni area above sea level. It's quite possible that the area sunk under sea level much more recently than 10 kya--some of the scientists who have studied the area are saying 3 kya.

[yuzuha]

I suspect that with the end of the ice ages and the seas rising over 100 metres (300 feet) in various stages between 12k and 7k years ago, that all the good costal real estate is miles out in the ocean now.

I'm very curious to see what will become of this http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/1768109.stm 9,000 year old city if the political climate of the region stabilizes enough to enable large scale archaeology of the site (I do have a feeling that prehistoric cities would have been built along the costal margins, but it isn't easy to dig under 100-300 feet of water ^-^)

[anthrogirl]

During the Neolithic Revolution (10,000 - 4,000 b.c.e.) most of the elements of modern civilization emerged. The first cities were built about 5,000 years ago (y.a) in Mesopotamia and the Indus valley of northwest India (they had beurocrats, tax collectors, priests, metalworkers, scribes, schools, housing and traffic problems, and almost all of the features of our own times).


"The Neolithic revolution in agriculture and town building transformed the lives of everyone incolved, which was most people. The change came about over several thousand years, probably first in the Near East and then spreading to other parts of Eurasia; similiar development in East Asia and much later in Mexico and Peru probably began independently. "Neolithic" refers to a stage of development rather than to specific years or centuries. It came later in western Europe and most of the rest of the world; isolated areas like Australia or the tropical rain forest were still in the Paleolithic when they were invaded by Europeans after the eighteenth century."




Soon after 4000 bce, villiages began to grow into small cities at the conjunction of the Tigris and Euphrates and in the lower Nile (which is actually the northern stretch of the river). Lower Nile sites have since been buried under silt, and we do not know their names or locations; but in Mesopotamia, perhaps slightly earlier than in Egypt, these first true cities included Ur, Nippur, Uruk, and Eridu. Their names are recorded in the world's first written texts, which have been preserved on clay tablets. The ancient city of Harappa also dates to this period.


Perhaps through the medium of trade, agricultural and irrigation techniques spread east from Mesopotamia and western Iran, and, by at least 3500 bce, both were fully developed at sites in eastern Iran, Afghanistan, Baluchistan, and the fringes of the Indus valley. By or before 3000 bce irrigated agriculture was fully established on the floodplain of the Indus and its major tributaries, where the first true cities of monsoon Asia arose, growing out of Neolithic villages and towns.



ag

[bandecoot]

I suspect that with the end of the ice ages and the seas rising over 100 metres (300 feet) in various stages between 12k and 7k years ago, that all the good costal real estate is miles out in the ocean now.

I'm very curious to see what will become of this http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/1768109.stm 9,000 year old city if the political climate of the region stabilizes enough to enable large scale archaeology of the site (I do have a feeling that prehistoric cities would have been built along the costal margins, but it isn't easy to dig under 100-300 feet of water ^-^)


Well now, Thats Interesting. You do realise that, if accurate, this story will drag attention away from the ANE as the centre of Civilisation. That will cause more problems for YEC. What a shame.

[technomage]

Well now, Thats Interesting. You do realise that, if accurate, this story will drag attention away from the ANE as the centre of Civilisation. That will cause more problems for YEC. What a shame.

:lol: Bande, you're a naughty boy!

Though truth to tell, my interest in history is not to "prove" or "disprove" the YEC paradigm ... I just want to find out what happened.

[bandecoot]

:lol: Bande, you're a naughty boy!

Though truth to tell, my interest in history is not to "prove" or "disprove" the YEC paradigm ... I just want to find out what happened.


Oh me too, but I'll take my bit of icing if it happens to come with the cake. The story as written is very interesting. I will be waiting for the next round of journals to come out to see what the story really is. I dont really trust journalists to get anything right.

[Darth Executor]

What happened with that dude who claimed he found Atlantis?

[yuzuha]

What happened with that dude who claimed he found Atlantis?
Don't know. Lots of people claim to have found Atlantis. AFAIC it was the volcanic island of Thera / Santorini until someone dredges up some better evidence. Yes, I do suspect there is evidence for older civilizations sitting out there on the sea bed that have not yet been found, but I'm strictly a hard science nut and think aliens/mu/atlantis mystical freaks just make it difficult for anyone to suggest there might have been anything before Mesopotamia.

[technomage]

Don't know. Lots of people claim to have found Atlantis. AFAIC it was the volcanic island of Thera / Santorini until someone dredges up some better evidence. Yes, I do suspect there is evidence for older civilizations sitting out there on the sea bed that have not yet been found, but I'm strictly a hard science nut and think aliens/mu/atlantis mystical freaks just make it difficult for anyone to suggest there might have been anything before Mesopotamia.

Eh ... I'm awfully skepical of the whole "Thera = Atlantis" thing--not because I object to Thera (the best candidate if there was a historical Atlantis), but because I don't buy Plato's account as historical. IMO, "Atlantis" was always allegorical: for them to find a nice convenient island and slap the name "Atlantis" on it makes no more sense than if they found a new continent and named it "Erewhon."

[Duder]

Sorry, but I find the idea that humanity lived in caves for 40000+ years ridiculous.

Take this for example:
http://www.morien-institute.org/yonaguni.html

Those structures are about 13k years old if I remember correctly.

I also find it equally strange that nothing but a few bones survive.

Hello, DE -

Civilization (if I remember my Early Western Civ) means there are three things present: cities, writing and metal. These three are thought to have come together in Mesopotamia around 3000 BCE or maybe a little earlier, at cities like Sumer, Eridu and Ur (If you recall, Abraham was an urbanite).

Before that, everyone was not necessarily in a "caveman" level of development. Around 8000 BCE, the neolithic era (new stone age) began in southern Turkey and northern Iraq. There were permanent settlements of 200-300 people who made a living growing crops and raising livestock. They made pottery and wove baskets, but still relied heavily on stone tools.

That may have to be revised if these Morian structures turn out to be older and if the culture that made them had the three elements of civilization.

[shunyadragon]

Hello, DE -

Civilization (if I remember my Early Western Civ) means there are three things present: cities, writing and metal. These three are thought to have come together in Mesopotamia around 3000 BCE or maybe a little earlier, at cities like Sumer, Eridu and Ur (If you recall, Abraham was an urbanite).

Before that, everyone was not necessarily in a "caveman" level of development. Around 8000 BCE, the neolithic era (new stone age) began in southern Turkey and northern Iraq. There were permanent settlements of 200-300 people who made a living growing crops and raising livestock. They made pottery and wove baskets, but still relied heavily on stone tools.

That may have to be revised if these Morian structures turn out to be older and if the culture that made them had the three elements of civilization.

The present earliest civilization by these standards is a little further east in what is know Pakistan and India.

This a classical worldview of civilization, but I take a different view of priorities of what a civilization is. I put the existence of regional and extra-regional trade, and various elements of industrial and commercial development as high priorities. Writing is shown to result from these activities.

Chinese Neolithic cultures show signs of trade and industrial development older than this. A curious development in chinese culture is the early evolution of the jade culture and industry. The jade carving industry is at least 8000 years old, and the extra-regional trade in jade is at least 4,000 to 6,000 years old. It is unusal in this case, because jade contributed nothing to the food, transportation, shelter, and little in the way of weapons, because of it's rarity and role in society. Despite this there is evidence of a clan type jade carving industry reproducing thousands of carvings with the skills being passed down from one generaltion to the other. This industry was almost purely ceremonial in nature and had to be supported by much larger organized social structure. In this case the writing was in the symbolism of the jade carvings themselves. These actually are the basis of many early Chinese characters.

In the case of China the desire of nephrite jade was the driving force for extra-regional trade in search of the stone. The Silk Road in reality the Jade road with evidence of trade from Persia to Eastern China over 4,000 years old. An older trade route was from Siberia to south China. Similar Neolithic trade routes in jade exist in Europe - Celtic trade from the British Isles to the Black Sea via the Danube River Valley for Swiss/Austrian jade. Americas - Native American trade route from North America to South America for Guatamalian jade. In these cases the source of the jade was in the middle of the trade route.

Trade requires records and is much older than the current evidence of writing. The origins of writing are probably much older than the evidence that we have on clay, stone and primative paper. The Mongolian writing likely originated from the tieing of a series of different types of knots in horse hair, the evidence of these will not likely survive the ravages of time, but these practices are likely much older than then the writing itself.

[Adam]

Don't know. Lots of people claim to have found Atlantis. AFAIC it was the volcanic island of Thera / Santorini until someone dredges up some better evidence. Yes, I do suspect there is evidence for older civilizations sitting out there on the sea bed that have not yet been found, but I'm strictly a hard science nut and think aliens/mu/atlantis mystical freaks just make it difficult for anyone to suggest there might have been anything before Mesopotamia.
Talking about Atlantis as proto-history before Egypt and Mesopotamia is just the tip of the iceberg. In Egypt itself it seems well established that the Sphinx was built in its original form well before the usual 4000 BC date for the first Egyptian kings.
That Atlantis was merely Thera in the Mediterranean blowing its top about 1450 BC is not so standard now. Serious attempts have been made to find Atlantis not just in the Bermuda Triangle (with impressive results), but in South America. Some of the earlier posters were talking about the Aztecs, Incas, and Mayans, but they were all later immigrants. The early story revolves around the Bolivian Highlands and the likely very early civilization of Tiahuanoco. In addition to it, there is another set of huge structures probably very early at a place I can no longer spell, but it was something like Saskahausen.
There is a well developed new archaeology that finds civilization began in Europe before 4000 BC. Not to mention the settlements in what is now the Black Sea that got flooded about 7000 BC (or was is years ago?) when the Mediterranean burst into the basin there. Some look upon this as the Great Flood referenced in the Bible.
Adam

[MuggleOrSquib]

The Mongolian writing likely originated from the tieing of a series of different types of knots in horse hair, the evidence of these will not likely survive the ravages of time, but these practices are likely much older than then the writing itself.

The Mongolian script is derived from the Uighur script (do a comparison), which in turn is either derived from Sogdian or Pahlavi. On the other hand, the Orkhon runes are more likely derived from the Aramaic alphabet, or so I would guess, given the importance of Aramaic in Central Asia during the Persian Empire.

Be Well,
Bob Griffin

[HerodionRomulus]

Catal Huyuk http://www.ancientroute.com/cities/catal_huyuk.htm
was a well-developed city and trade center by the 7th millenium bce.
There are also traces of settlements in the Black Sea, now flooded and dates to approx. 5600 bce.

A culture (forget the name) in what is now Peru built pyramids as large as the Egyptians and at about the same time.

[MuggleOrSquib]

A culture (forget the name) in what is now Peru built pyramids as large as the Egyptians and at about the same time.
Purgatorio (purgatory) is the name by which local people refer to the dozens of prehispanic pyramids, enclosures and mounds found on the plain around La Raya Mountain, south of the La Leche River. This is the site of Tucume, covering an area of over 540 acres and encompassing 26 major pyramids and platforms.

This site was a major regional center, maybe even the capital of the successive occupations of the area by the Lambayeque/Sican (1000/1100-1350 AD) CHECK CHECK, Chimú (1350-1450 AD) and Inca (1450-1532 AD).
...
The beginnings of Tucume are to be found in a legend recorded by Father Cabello de Balboa (1586 AD). Cala, a grandson of the mythical Naymlap, founder of the Lambayeque royal dynasty, is said to have gone to Tucume to "start new fan-tilies and settlements, bringing many people him with". The founding of the settlement seems to have taken place around 1000-1100 AD, when the old regional center at Batán Grande, to the south of the Chancay river, was burnt and abandoned. Tucume quickly rose to a preeminent position within the valley.
( http://www.inkanatura.com/coastchiclayotrujillotucumepyramids.asp )

Over 3000 years after the 6th Dynasty pyramids at Gizeh.

Be Well,
Bob Griffin

[cozee]

Purgatorio (purgatory) is the name by which local people refer to the dozens of prehispanic pyramids, enclosures and mounds found on the plain around La Raya Mountain, south of the La Leche River. This is the site of Tucume, covering an area of over 540 acres and encompassing 26 major pyramids and platforms.

This site was a major regional center, maybe even the capital of the successive occupations of the area by the Lambayeque/Sican (1000/1100-1350 AD) CHECK CHECK, Chimú (1350-1450 AD) and Inca (1450-1532 AD).
...
The beginnings of Tucume are to be found in a legend recorded by Father Cabello de Balboa (1586 AD). Cala, a grandson of the mythical Naymlap, founder of the Lambayeque royal dynasty, is said to have gone to Tucume to "start new fan-tilies and settlements, bringing many people him with". The founding of the settlement seems to have taken place around 1000-1100 AD, when the old regional center at Batán Grande, to the south of the Chancay river, was burnt and abandoned. Tucume quickly rose to a preeminent position within the valley.
( http://www.inkanatura.com/coastchiclayotrujillotucumepyramids.asp )

Over 3000 years after the 6th Dynasty pyramids at Gizeh.

Be Well,
Bob Griffin
What's the earliest recorded civilization?

Adam and Eve!!

[shunyadragon]

The Mongolian script is derived from the Uighur script (do a comparison), which in turn is either derived from Sogdian or Pahlavi. On the other hand, the Orkhon runes are more likely derived from the Aramaic alphabet, or so I would guess, given the importance of Aramaic in Central Asia during the Persian Empire.

Be Well,
Bob Griffin

Comparison only can logically conclude some sort of relationship and not one necessarily derived from another. There are several alternative explanations for this relationship. Even if the Mongolian is either wholey or in part derived from Ughar, this does not change my conclusions.

I do not necessarilly accept this chain of events based on older methods of tracing origins, which are sometimes culturial ethnocentric. There is a possibility of a relationship between Ughur and Mongolian, but the relationship is more likely a shared heritage in trade and communication and not necassarily one derived from another. Part of the problem with this older method of trying to trace scripts to a somewhat distant source is that in many localities they are finding older and older examples of script insitu of the region of origin. This method has also broken down in the origins of spoken languages, and technologies like bronze and iron, as more is known of languages, and older and older discoveries are made indicating multiorigins for the advancement of human civilization.

An example of shared heritage is trade. The silk road is actually the jade road ~4000 plus years old extending through the Xinjiang region - origin of the jade - from Persia to eastern central China. This and other examples trade routes encouraged the early formation of common charactoristics between languages that did not necessarily mean one was derived from another.

[MuggleOrSquib]

Comparison only can logically conclude some sort of relationship and not one necessarily derived from another. There are several alternative explanations for this relationship. Even if the Mongolian is either wholey or in part derived from Ughar, this does not change my conclusions.

I believe that I read of Genghiz Khan requiring the creation of a Mongolian script, based on the Uighur alphabet.

We have evidence for vertically written Syriac from the time of the Tang dynasty. I don't know about the earliest Uighur writings, but the presence of several alphabets in the area (Syriac, Pahlavi, Manichean) and the resemblance between the Uighur alphabet and the Syriac Estrangelo alphabet suggest an adaptation.

Alphabets do not appear to be a natural development, as while writing systems developed separately in various areas of the world, only those centering on the Middle East, the Mediterranean, or Iran in their earliest forms, are alphabetic. The others tended to be either logographic or syllabic.

Be Well,
Bob Griffin

[shunyadragon]

I believe that I read of Genghiz Khan requiring the creation of a Mongolian script, based on the Uighur alphabet.

We have evidence for vertically written Syriac from the time of the Tang dynasty. I don't know about the earliest Uighur writings, but the presence of several alphabets in the area (Syriac, Pahlavi, Manichean) and the resemblance between the Uighur alphabet and the Syriac Estrangelo alphabet suggest an adaptation.

Alphabets do not appear to be a natural development, as while writing systems developed separately in various areas of the world, only those centering on the Middle East, the Mediterranean, or Iran in their earliest forms, are alphabetic. The others tended to be either logographic or syllabic.

Be Well,
Bob Griffin

I still feel trade is an important issue. The claims of Ghengiz Khan are probably over rated. The alphabet was likely in independent development.

By the way ancient knots series have been found that would have been a form of communication.