Born again is not just for the 144,000

[Sparko]

The Watchtower wants you to think that only 144,000 (the little flock) are born again and will be with Jesus in Heaven.

That is not true. All Christians are born again and so can you be.

In John 3 Jesus tells how and who gets to be born again.


Lets go through John 3 and see what Jesus has to say...
John3:3In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again."
So no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is Born Again. But does that mean that anyone can be born again, or just a select few? Let's read on...
4"How can a man be born when he is old?" Nicodemus asked. "Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb to be born!"

5Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. 6Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You must be born again.' 8The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit."

9"How can this be?" Nicodemus asked.


10"You are Israel's teacher," said Jesus, "and do you not understand these things? 11I tell you the truth, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony. 12I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things? 13No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man. 14Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.

Jesus is speaking of being born again in this conversation with Nicodemus, but here he says EVERYONE who believes in the Son of Man (Jesus) may have eternal life. He is not just talking about being resurrected some day and living forever, he is talking about being born again with a new spirit and having eternal life. And he Jesus says this is available to EVERYONE who believes! Isn't that great news?

Let's go on...
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.


He says it AGAIN! Whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. The watchtower says that you WILL perish, and then if you were good, Jehovah will 'remember' you and recreate you some day. But that's not what Jesus says here! He says you will NEVER PERISH. And he says this is available for WHOEVER believes, not just 144,000. Paul reiterates this when he says
Philippians 1:22- If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose? I do not know! 23I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far; 24but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body.


Paul does not expect to die and wait to be remembered. He expects that when he will die he will be with the Lord. When Paul died he went straight to the Lord, he did not perish! There was no time when Paul did not exist and was not concious. One moment he was alive in a body, and the next he was in spirit with the Lord. And that is what eternal life is! One day the resurrection will occur and we will get our glorified bodies and then we will be flesh once more. But we never have to perish! We don't have to worry about 'getting' eternal life, we can know that we HAVE eternal life.
1 John 5: 13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.

Let's go back to the text...
17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.
Jesus doesn't divide the saved into two groups, a little flock and a great flock, those who are born again and those who must prove their worth some day at the end of the millenium. No. He makes only one distinction. Those who believe and those who do not believe. If you believe in Jesus you are not condemned but will have eternal life, but if you don't believe, you are already condemned. That's it. Two groups, not three.



You can be a child of God NOW. The Watchtower teaches that only after living a good life as a faithful witness will you even have a CHANCE to become a child of God. They tell you that if you are good, Jehovah will recreate you in the millenium, and then you have to live 1000 more years of proving yourself and if you pass the final test, then and only then will God adopt you.


So basically you can't even call Jehovah your "Heavenly Father" yet! He has not adopted you yet!


But what does the Bible teach?
John 1:12 Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.


1 John 5:1 Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God

ALL who receive him and who believe in him have the RIGHT to become the children of God. And BE BORN OF GOD.

ALL and there is no condition of living a perfect life or testing, the only condition is belief! You can be a child of God and be born again just by believing in Jesus! That's it.
1 John 3:1How great is the love the Father has lavished on us, that we should be called children of God! And that is what we are!
Did you read that? John doesn't say 'and that is what we WILL be' he says 'and that is what we ARE'

Right now you can be a child of God. Not after 1000 years. NOW.
Romans 8:14 because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. 15 For you did not receive a spirit that makes you a slave again to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship. And by him we cry, "Abba, Father."

16 The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children. 17Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.That is the REAL Good News, isn't it? You do not have to be some second class citizen of the Kingdom of God. You can be a Child of God and be born of God right NOW and HAVE Eternal life right NOW!

Halleluleah!

Just pray to God and tell him that you want to be his child, and that you know that Jesus died for your sins and that you believe and trust in him as your Lord and Savior.

This is all you need do to be born again as a child of God and have eternal life.

Amen!!!!

If you have any questions, feel free to ask them in this thread.
---
This thread is for those who may have honest questions about this subject only and won't be allowed to deteriorate into a free for all or go off the topic of being born again and being a child of God. The thread will be run similar to a Theology 101 or Sanctuary thread, where the posters can interact with the thread starter by asking questions or answering questions (respectful interaction), but it is not for debating and arguing.

[JimWW]

This is not true. I am not a Jehovah Witness but I have been doing a JW bible study for about 7 months now. I had mentioned once that I read the bible as maybe saying only 144,000 would be saved (not because I thought that is what Jehovah Witnesses believed) and I was immediately told that was not the case and not what the bible says.

[ApologiaPhoenix]

This is not true. I am not a Jehovah Witness but I have been doing a JW bible study for about 7 months now. I had mentioned once that I read the bible as maybe saying only 144,000 would be saved (not because I thought that is what Jehovah Witnesses believed) and I was immediately told that was not the case and not what the bible says.

It depends on what is meant.

Only 144,000 in JW doctrine get to go to the New Heaven. The rest are on Paradise Earth.

[JimWW]

That is true as I understand it and they seem to be able to clearly support that with biblical passages. I myself am no expert there and could not cite the passages for you but I did review that with the person I am studying with who did convince me that their belief is supported in the bible.

As I understand it, a Jehovah Witness believes in the bible and studies it carefully and strives to live by a literal translation as much as that is possible. They do understand that the bible is poetic in many cases and although I thought I had a fairly good understanding of the bible I have found that my studies with a Jehovah Witness has helped me better understand the bible.

[JimWW]

Also, as I understand it the 144,000 are not necessarily or even primarily Jehovah Witness's but rather people throughout history. I believe there is something in Revelations about this, members from the various tribes of Israel. I think they do believe that their may be specultion among Jehovah Witnesses that there may be a couple of Jehovah Witnesses who because of the exceptional lives they led are likely among that 144,000.

I readily admit that after only a 7 month bible study with a Jehovah Witness and attendance at only 3 of their services I am certainly no expert on what Jehovah Witness believe and practice and what they do not believe and practice.

Nonetheless, I do think that the originating post of this thread is a Gross Misrepresentation of their faith and I find it strongly distasteful expecially with regard to the cavalier attitude it expresses toward this group as a whole.

[Sparko]

It is not a gross misrepresentation of their faith, JimWW.

Jehovah's witnesses believe that only 144,000 people will go to heaven and they will rule over all the rest of the people on earth. Only those 144,000 are "born again" and only they are allowed to partake of communion. The rest of the "flock" are not born again but if they are faithful to the Watchtower they will be resurrected again in Paradise on earth.

What they teach is a lie from Satan. Anyone who wants can be "born again" and saved. All true Christians are invited to partake of the sacrament of Communion.

[JimWW]

It is not a gross misrepresentation of their faith, JimWW.

Jehovah's witnesses believe that only 144,000 people will go to heaven and they will rule over all the rest of the people on earth. Only those 144,000 are "born again" and only they are allowed to partake of communion. The rest of the "flock" are not born again but if they are faithful to the Watchtower they will be resurrected again in Paradise on earth.

What they teach is a lie from Satan. Anyone who wants can be "born again" and saved. All true Christians are invited to partake of the sacrament of Communion.

Hmmm...
I just got back from my 4th visit to a kingdom hall and the words of the service seemed to contradict what you are saying. Are you sure you really understand what Jehovah Witnesses believe? Or are you speaking from some bias you have against them that is common in the group you belong to and is possibly based on misunderstandings that are grounded in a lack of knowledge regarding their faith? Or is it possible that some of the information you have learned about the Jehovah Witnesses is misleading or inaccurate? The Jehovah Witness that I am doing my bible study with, I can ask him anything and he can go right to the bible and show me in rather clear terms that what he is saying is supported in the bible.

[Sparko]

Hmmm...
I just got back from my 4th visit to a kingdom hall and the words of the service seemed to contradict what you are saying. Are you sure you really understand what Jehovah Witnesses believe? Or are you speaking from some bias you have against them that is common in the group you belong to and is possibly based on misunderstandings that are grounded in a lack of knowledge regarding their faith? Or is it possible that some of the information you have learned about the Jehovah Witnesses is misleading or inaccurate? The Jehovah Witness that I am doing my bible study with, I can ask him anything and he can go right to the bible and show me in rather clear terms that what he is saying is supported in the bible.

Ask them if anyone but the 144,000 are "born again"

Ask if any but the 144,000 can take communion. Communion is only done 1 time a year and they will pass the cup around from person to person and not one will drink except if they are one of the 144,000.

(Did YOU take communion at the Kingdom Hall?)

Ask if any but the 144,000 will go to heaven and rule over the earth. Ask them the difference between "everlasting" life and "immortal" life.

If you want to contradict me, at least SHOW me that I am wrong and not just suggest it. I too have studied the Jehovah's Witnesses and actually went to their Kingdom Hall many a time, JImWW.

Don't just come in here telling us we are wrong, show us we are wrong. Give me some guotes.

JimWW, the Jehovah's Witnesses are masters at manipulation. You should take a bible study at a normal Christian church, like a Baptist church, and contrast the two. Don't let the JW's drag you into their world with out checking out true Christianity first. Also please read some books about the Jehovah's Witnesses too. They are nothing but a cult.


---
Here are some quotes from the Watchtower society:

Watchtower 3/15/59 p. 184-187
"Who may partake of the Lord’s evening meal? All sincere Christians? No. Why not? Because the context of the record of Jesus’ institution of the Memorial as well as the testimony of other scriptures show that it is limited to those who have the hope of sharing heavenly glory with Jesus Christ, which number the Scriptures show to be limited to 144,000. The facts show that today only a small remnant of that number, who began to be selected at Pentecost, A.D. 33, remains. All men of good will, however, are welcome and should come and observe the celebration, as for them also it calls to mind what Jehovah God and Jesus Christ did, and how they can show appreciation therefor."


Watchtower 11/15/1992 Why Some Are Born Again
"Associated with Jesus as corulers are 144,000 who are bought from humankind. (Revelation 5:9, 10; 14:1-4) God has chosen some from Adam’s imperfect human family to become these “holy ones of the Supreme One,” who rule with Christ in the Messianic Kingdom. (Daniel 7:27; 1 Corinthians 6:2; Revelation 3:21; 20:6) These men and women put faith in Jesus Christ, who said that they would be “born again.”

[JimWW]

Ask them if anyone but the 144,000 are "born again"

Ask if any but the 144,000 can take communion. Communion is only done 1 time a year and they will pass the cup around from person to person and not one will drink except if they are one of the 144,000.

(Did YOU take communion at the Kingdom Hall?)

Ask if any but the 144,000 will go to heaven and rule over the earth. Ask them the difference between "everlasting" life and "immortal" life.

If you want to contradict me, at least SHOW me that I am wrong and not just suggest it. I too have studied the Jehovah's Witnesses and actually went to their Kingdom Hall many a time, JImWW.

Don't just come in here telling us we are wrong, show us we are wrong. Give me some guotes.

Your point is respectfully taken regarding contradicting you. Yet, what you had to say about the Jehovah Witnesses was directly contradicting MY real life experience and therefore I think that it makes sense for me to point that out, if for no other reason than that you did not make it clear in your post where you were getting your information. I will give you the benefit of the doubt that you are telling the truth with regard to your experiences with the Jehovah Witnesses, Mad Dee Dee Sparko.

I cannot confidently debate you with regard to the eucharist or the communion of a body of people with a common faith. And I have not asked anyone about how they might view a difference between the concepts of an 'immortal life' vs. an 'everlasting life', in fact, I have yet in a 1/2 century + of living asked anyone I know that question regardless of their faith or lack thereof.

Nonetheless for me, my direct and real experience was this very day that the speaker at the Kingdom Hall seemed to contradict what you are saying. Possibly, I am wrong. Possibly, there are many fine points you understand that I don't. I am the first to admit that I am no expert with regard to the bible or religious matters in general.

Where Christ was so great and where so many of us fail is number one, that he was perfect and we are not and number two that he could say what he had to say in such beautiful ways that didn't single out particular groups but rather seemed to point out the sinful nature in all of us, even those who followed him, in many cases. Wouldn't it be nice if we could all achieve that state of grace or at least make an effort to work toward that goal when it comes to how we communicate with one another?

[Sparko]

Your point is respectfully taken regarding contradicting you. Yet, what you had to say about the Jehovah Witnesses was directly contradicting MY real life experience and therefore I think that it makes sense for me to point that out, if for no other reason than that you did not make it clear in your post where you were getting your information. I will give you the benefit of the doubt that you are telling the truth with regard to your experiences with the Jehovah Witnesses, Mad Dee Dee Sparko.

Jim, sorry if I came off harsh at you. I didn't mean to. If you read through this area you will see we have had some pretty militant JW's on here and I guess I got a bit defensive.

Jim, I too studied with the Witnesses once upon a time, and let me tell you, they have a very rote method where they lead you into their religion little by little, and they try to make themselves sound as mainstream as they can and as helpful as they can to get you on board. And this is not even some "conspiracy" or anything. Most of the people who are "teaching" you genuinely think they are helping you with the truth. They are not being sinister or anything. But they have been sucked previously and are trying to do the same with you. The watchtower controls everything. As you get in deeper you will find that if you question too much you will be rebuffed and told that you should trust your elders and so on.

But I really don't want to drag this thread off topic (as I said in the opening thread) and want to just discuss the area around being saved in Christianity verses in the Jehovah's Witnesses (JW) - If you want we can start a new thread to talk about the tactics of the cult.




I cannot confidently debate you with regard to the eucharist or the communion of a body of people with a common faith. And I have not asked anyone about how they might view a difference between the concepts of an 'immortal life' vs. an 'everlasting life', in fact, I have yet in a 1/2 century + of living asked anyone I know that question regardless of their faith or lack thereof.
In the bible, Eternal life is for all who follow Christ. We will be given immortal glorified bodies and life with Christ on the New Earth and Heaven. In JW terminology, they twist that and make "eternal life" what the 144,000 have, and they will live in a spiritual heaven with Christ ruling over the Earth, or Paradise. Those who are not "born again" but are faithful JWs will get "immortal" life in that paradise.

The bible says that God will be with mankind on the New Earth, not in some remote spirit place.

Rev 21:1Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away."



Where Christ was so great and where so many of us fail is number one, that he was perfect and we are not and number two that he could say what he had to say in such beautiful ways that didn't single out particular groups but rather seemed to point out the sinful nature in all of us, even those who followed him, in many cases. Wouldn't it be nice if we could all achieve that state of grace or at least make an effort to work toward that goal when it comes to how we communicate with one another?

Christ did not play word games when it came to condemning those groups that were leading his people astray, Jim. He most certainly DID single them out.

Some of what Jesus said to the pharisees was particularly harsh and to the point.

John 8:43
Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. 44You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me!

Matthew 23:15 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=23&verse=15&version=31&context=verse)
"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are.

[ApologiaPhoenix]

Jim. I don't make a statement out of ignorance on the JWs. You can say "They show it in the Bible!" Well, bring us their argument and let's see how well it stands up.

[JimWW]

I think that here I am repying to both Mad Dee Dee Sparko and Apologia Phoenix in this one post:


Jim, I too studied with the Witnesses once upon a time, and let me tell you, they have a very rote method where they lead you into their religion little by little, and they try to make themselves sound as mainstream as they can and as helpful as they can to get you on board. And this is not even some "conspiracy" or anything. Most of the people who are "teaching" you genuinely think they are helping you with the truth. They are not being sinister or anything. But they have been sucked previously and are trying to do the same with you. The watchtower controls everything. As you get in deeper you will find that if you question too much you will be rebuffed and told that you should trust your elders and so on.[\QUOTE]

You have successfully scared me with this one.

[QUOTE]Jim, sorry if I came off harsh at you. I didn't mean to. If you read through this area you will see we have had some pretty militant JW's on here and I guess I got a bit defensive. [\QUOTE]

I didn't really check out your site in detail so I was not aware of this. Please believe me, I am not a militant member of any group. It is just that I very much like the people I have met through this bible study and my attendance at the local Kingdom Hall and you might say I was attempting to defend my new found friends. It is funny, I did not do a search regarding the Jehovah Witnesses but rather theology in general and it was an accident that I came across this thead. I have yet to even discuss what I was thinking about when I did this search.

[QUOTE]Jim, I too studied with the Witnesses once upon a time, and let me tell you, they have a very rote method where they lead you into their religion little by little, and they try to make themselves sound as mainstream as they can and as helpful as they can to get you on board. And this is not even some "conspiracy" or anything. Most of the people who are "teaching" you genuinely think they are helping you with the truth. They are not being sinister or anything.

This pretty much coincides with my experience.


But they have been sucked previously and are trying to do the same with you. The watchtower controls everything. As you get in deeper you will find that if you question too much you will be rebuffed and told that you should trust your elders and so on.

Again, you have successfully scared me.


...the tactics of the cult.

Really scares me as I have been hurt quite badly by a bad experience many years ago with a cult whose name I am afraid to even mention on the internet.


In the bible, Eternal life is for all who follow Christ. We will be given immortal glorified bodies and life with Christ on the New Earth and Heaven. In JW terminology, they twist that and make "eternal life" what the 144,000 have, and they will live in a spiritual heaven with Christ ruling over the Earth, or Paradise. Those who are not "born again" but are faithful JWs will get "immortal" life in that paradise...<snip> Jim. I don't make a statement out of ignorance on the JWs. You can say "They show it in the Bible!" Well, bring us their argument and let's see how well it stands up.

You have convinced me that you are not making your statements out of ignorance.


...they twist that and make "eternal life" what the 144,000 have, and they will

live in a spiritual heaven with Christ ruling over the Earth, or Paradise. Those who are not "born again" but are faithful

JWs will get "immortal" life in that paradise.

This seems so different from what your original post seemed to imply where my understanding from a quick reading lead me to believe that you were saying that Jehovah Witnesses are saying that only 144,000 people will be saved period. Maybe that is not what you were saying, I will have to read that first post again.

But the idea of a distinction between 'eternal life' vs. 'immortal life' is hard for me to conceive of as it seems like different words for the same thing and this is the first time I have ever heard this distinction made and yet it seems to be at the core of your criticism (in your first post) of the Jehovah Witnesses. Am I wrong about this?


Christ did not play word games when it came to condemning those groups that were leading his people astray, Jim. He most certainly DID single them out.

I agree with you here and I did not mean to imply that Christ played word games. What I hoped to express was that he took on the whole of the "teachers of the law and Pharisees" rather than singling out a specific group of say, teachers or Pharisees who wear blue robes vs. those who wear green robes. It seems to me that he was condemming the structure as a whole. In other words, if this statement were made by Christ today, would he not be taking on all organized religion not just say, the Jehovah Witnesses? It seems that way to me.

I do the best I can with the bible and I am not quick to quote it as I often fear that I might take something out of context and do more harm then good as I have seen and heard so many others do. But as we have spent a bit of time discussing this I have found a quote that I think is appropriate and applies to our discussion and (and I believe to a larger disturbing picture) I can quote this with somewhat of a feeling of confidence:

Hosea 4:4 through 4:9
4 But let no man bring a charge,
let no man accuse another,
for your people are like those
who bring charges against a priest.
5. You stumble day and night,
and the prophets stumble with you.
So I will destroy your mother -
6. my people are destroyed from
lack of knowledge.
Because you have rejected
knowledge,
I also reject you as my priests,
because you have ignored the law of
your God,
I also will ignore your children.
7 The more the priests increased,
the more they sinned against me;
they exchanged their glory for
something disgraceful.
8 They feed on the sins of my people
and relish their wickedness.
9 And it will be: Like people, like
priests,
I will punish both of them for their
ways and repay them for their deeds.

In my opinion, this scripture if applied to current events, points to and applies to a much larger picture than just this website - a much bigger picture.

I understand Christ as a savior through faithful belief in him, his words, and through following him. And Jesus said:
Matthew 15:10
Listen and understand. What goes into a man's mouth does not make him 'unclean' but what comes out of his mouth, that is what makes him 'unclean'.

These days, we have keyboards. I don't criticize you anymore than I would criticize myself and so much of what I see on the web but personally, much of it makes me sick. Sometimes I make myself sick. I think we could all clean up our acts a bit.

[ApologiaPhoenix]

I would suggest going to some ex-Jw websites and getting some testimonies to validate what Sparko has said. You could also get a copy of a book called "30 Years A Watchtower Slave."

[Sparko]

Jim, The JW's divide the "saved" into two groups. The 144,000 are "born again" and are an elite class that they claim will rule with Jesus in some spiritual heaven. The rest of mankind that are "saved" are the immortal ones who will live on earth in paradise and will be ruled by the elite. Basically they are 'second class citizens' (although they would not call them that)

The bible on the other hand DOES use immortality and eternal life as synonyms as you said. We all can be saved the same way. When we accept Jesus as our Lord and Savior, God gives us his Holy Spirit to seal us as his own and we are born again with a new spirit. All of us, not just 144,000. That was the distinction I was making in the first part of the thread.

The 144,000 mentioned in the bible was a figurative number talking about 12,000 sealed from each of the 12 tribes of israel. It has nothing to do with the watchtower, they are not even Jewish. Their founder Russell, just twisted bible verses to fit what he wanted them to say. He used the figurative language in revelation to claim that only 144,000 faithful would serve with God in heaven.

Well if that were the case, then NONE of the JW's will be among them. because they are not from the 12 tribes of Israel.

Rev 7:4Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.
From the tribe of Judah 12,000 were sealed,
from the tribe of Reuben 12,000,
from the tribe of Gad 12,000,
from the tribe of Asher 12,000,
from the tribe of Naphtali 12,000,
from the tribe of Manasseh 12,000,
from the tribe of Simeon 12,000,
from the tribe of Levi 12,000,
from the tribe of Issachar 12,000,
from the tribe of Zebulun 12,000,
from the tribe of Joseph 12,000,
from the tribe of Benjamin 12,000.

[JimWW]

Jim, The JW's divide the "saved" into two groups. The 144,000 are "born again" and are an elite class that they claim will rule with Jesus in some spiritual heaven. The rest of mankind that are "saved" are the immortal ones who will live on earth in paradise and will be ruled by the elite. Basically they are 'second class citizens' (although they would not call them that)

The bible on the other hand DOES use immortality and eternal life as synonyms as you said. We all can be saved the same way. When we accept Jesus as our Lord and Savior, God gives us his Holy Spirit to seal us as his own and we are born again with a new spirit. All of us, not just 144,000. That was the distinction I was making in the first part of the thread.

The 144,000 mentioned in the bible was a figurative number talking about 12,000 sealed from each of the 12 tribes of israel. It has nothing to do with the watchtower, they are not even Jewish. Their founder Russell, just twisted bible verses to fit what he wanted them to say. He used the figurative language in revelation to claim that only 144,000 faithful would serve with God in heaven.

Well if that were the case, then NONE of the JW's will be among them. because they are not from the 12 tribes of Israel.

Rev 7:4Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.
From the tribe of Judah 12,000 were sealed,
from the tribe of Reuben 12,000,
from the tribe of Gad 12,000,
from the tribe of Asher 12,000,
from the tribe of Naphtali 12,000,
from the tribe of Manasseh 12,000,
from the tribe of Simeon 12,000,
from the tribe of Levi 12,000,
from the tribe of Issachar 12,000,
from the tribe of Zebulun 12,000,
from the tribe of Joseph 12,000,
from the tribe of Benjamin 12,000.

Now this is much better in my opinion. Basically you have a disagreement with the Jehovah Witnesses regarding their interpretation of Rev 7:4 as you understand their interpretation.

I agree with you, if that is their interpretation I disagree with that interpretation too and think that they should correct it and make any changes in their organization that are based on that interpretation.

I think that what you write here is not inflamatory or misleading and had this been the basis for your first post I probably would not have had this conversation with you. I am not sure if that would have been a good thing or a bad thing.:teeth:
Jim

[Sparko]

Just remember when you discuss this with them, Jim, asking who can be born again. They will tell you only the special 144,000 get to be born again and have "eternal" life (life in Heaven) but you can have "immortal" life on earth.

But the bible says that whosoever believes in Jesus shall have ETERNAL life, not just the 144,000.

Now that you understand the points I am discussing, go back and re-read my first post in this tread for the proof that everyone who believes can have eternal life and be born again, not just the 144,000.

[Storico]

Sparko, thank you for posting the Rev 7:4 reference. I was just about to ask WHERE that 144,000 CAME from, and you beat me to it. It had been a while since I'd seen the verse and I forgot which it was.

I've heard that number, 144,000, tossed around so often. The question, though, is 144,000 WHAT? It doesn't seem to come right out and say "people". Men? Women? Both? Each? The language isn't specific enough to infer "persons".

Verses 1:1-3 say this:


7:1 After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth, that no wind might blow on earth or sea or against any tree. 2 Then I saw another angel ascending from the rising of the sun, with the seal of the living God, and he called with a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm earth and sea, 3 saying, “Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until we have sealed the servants* of our God on their foreheads.”

* = bondservants in the original Greek



Okay. So, I'm wondering this: HOW do you get "only 144,000 saved/sent to Heaven" out of "do not harm the earth or sea or trees until we've sealed God's bondservants"? Who are these bondservants? Prophets? People chosen for a specific mission/purpose in the end times? It just doesn't seem to mean that those people are the ONLY people who can go to Heaven -- Heaven isn't mentioned there. It seems like they're being set aside and protected for something, or from something.

One of those "I've wondered for a while" things.

[Sparko]

Sparko, thank you for posting the Rev 7:4 reference. I was just about to ask WHERE that 144,000 CAME from, and you beat me to it. It had been a while since I'd seen the verse and I forgot which it was.

I've heard that number, 144,000, tossed around so often. The question, though, is 144,000 WHAT? It doesn't seem to come right out and say "people". Men? Women? Both? Each? The language isn't specific enough to infer "persons".

Verses 1:1-3 say this:



Okay. So, I'm wondering this: HOW do you get "only 144,000 saved/sent to Heaven" out of "do not harm the earth or sea or trees until we've sealed God's bondservants"? Who are these bondservants? Prophets? People chosen for a specific mission/purpose in the end times? It just doesn't seem to mean that those people are the ONLY people who can go to Heaven -- Heaven isn't mentioned there. It seems like they're being set aside and protected for something, or from something.

One of those "I've wondered for a while" things.

Storico, remember its the Jehovah's Witnesses that say only 144,000 will be saved. How did they get that doctrine? It came about over many years starting with Charles T. Russell back in the 19th century, He started a magazine called Zion's Watchtower and the modern day JWs are based on that. He did some major scripture twisting and took a lot of stuff out of context and the doctrine developed that only 144,000 would be in heaven to rule over the earth. Part of the reason is that the JWs believe that Jesus did not rise physically but only as a spirit and he is a spirit now and that means he won't be coming down to earth in their theology, so he has to rule from heaven. So they somehow got that 144,000 to be up there with him.

The bible on the other hand teaches that Jesus rose bodily and he will come back one day and rule bodily on earth. And all Christians will be with him, not just a special few.

[Storico]

Storico, remember its the Jehovah's Witnesses that say only 144,000 will be saved. How did they get that doctrine? It came about over many years starting with Charles T. Russell back in the 19th century, He started a magazine called Zion's Watchtower and the modern day JWs are based on that. He did some major scripture twisting and took a lot of stuff out of context and the doctrine developed that only 144,000 would be in heaven to rule over the earth. Part of the reason is that the JWs believe that Jesus did not rise physically but only as a spirit and he is a spirit now and that means he won't be coming down to earth in their theology, so he has to rule from heaven. So they somehow got that 144,000 to be up there with him.

The bible on the other hand teaches that Jesus rose bodily and he will come back one day and rule bodily on earth. And all Christians will be with him, not just a special few.

Oh yes, I know it's only the JWs saying this. I've just never spoken with one yet who could tell me exactly HOW they got 144,000 in heaven out of those verses, or why they believe Christ only rose spiritually, or why they say all Christians will not be with Him. Any takers who are JW? :smile:

[JimWW]

Mad Dee Dee Sparko,
This is the best I could do to conclude our thread in a sensible way:
After todays bible study, I believe that you are technically right about Jehovah's Witnesses
and their belief about the 144,000.

As I understand it, I was partially right regarding my post about an earlier bible study
teaching regarding Jehovah Witnesses and the 144,000. It was my understanding then that the
144,000 will consist of people from throughout history. Based on today's bible study, I believe
my understanding was incomplete as it was further explained in today's study, that what was
meant by the statement 'throughout history' was history after the forming of the new covenant.

As I understand it, Jehovah Witnesses believe that all of the 144,000 will be Jehovah Witnesses
in this sense: The word 'witness' has a greek root which means something like: 'bearer of the truth'.
To be a Jehovah Witness means that one is the bearer of the truth about God, Jehovah. Therefore,
anyone who would bear the truth about God after the new covenant was formed is a Jehovah Witness,
therefore calling one's self a Jehovah Witness and or being a member of a particular organization
is not what makes one a Jehovah Witness but rather it is the act of being a bearer of the truth
about God, Jehovah that makes one a Jehovah Witness from the time of the new covenant until the
time that the new kingdom is formed.

To simplify:
1. It is my understanding that members of the Jehovah Witness Organization believe that the 144,00
will be picked from among all people who have lived after the new covenant involving Jesus, was made.

2. From this select group, the 144,000 will then be selected from only those who bear the truth
about God, Jehovah.

So, technically your first post is right. I thought you were implying that the Jehovah Witnesses
Organizations official teaching is that the 144,000 referred to in Revelation would all be members
of the current organization that calls itself Jehovah Witnesses and that that teaching is Satanic.
What I understand from todays bible study is that the 144,000 referred to in Revelation are to be
picked from people throughout history, since the new covenant, who bear the truth about God, Jehovah.
As a student of the bible, I don't see anything wrong with that nor does it appear to be a Satan
inspired twisting or interpretation of the bible.

[Sparko]

Mad Dee Dee Sparko,
This is the best I could do to conclude our thread in a sensible way:
After todays bible study, I believe that you are technically right about Jehovah's Witnesses
and their belief about the 144,000.

As I understand it, I was partially right regarding my post about an earlier bible study
teaching regarding Jehovah Witnesses and the 144,000. It was my understanding then that the
144,000 will consist of people from throughout history. Based on today's bible study, I believe
my understanding was incomplete as it was further explained in today's study, that what was
meant by the statement 'throughout history' was history after the forming of the new covenant.

As I understand it, Jehovah Witnesses believe that all of the 144,000 will be Jehovah Witnesses
in this sense: The word 'witness' has a greek root which means something like: 'bearer of the truth'.
To be a Jehovah Witness means that one is the bearer of the truth about God, Jehovah. Therefore,
anyone who would bear the truth about God after the new covenant was formed is a Jehovah Witness,
therefore calling one's self a Jehovah Witness and or being a member of a particular organization
is not what makes one a Jehovah Witness but rather it is the act of being a bearer of the truth
about God, Jehovah that makes one a Jehovah Witness from the time of the new covenant until the
time that the new kingdom is formed.

To simplify:
1. It is my understanding that members of the Jehovah Witness Organization believe that the 144,00
will be picked from among all people who have lived after the new covenant involving Jesus, was made.

2. From this select group, the 144,000 will then be selected from only those who bear the truth
about God, Jehovah.

So, technically your first post is right. I thought you were implying that the Jehovah Witnesses
Organizations official teaching is that the 144,000 referred to in Revelation would all be members
of the current organization that calls itself Jehovah Witnesses and that that teaching is Satanic.
What I understand from todays bible study is that the 144,000 referred to in Revelation are to be
picked from people throughout history, since the new covenant, who bear the truth about God, Jehovah.
As a student of the bible, I don't see anything wrong with that nor does it appear to be a Satan
inspired twisting or interpretation of the bible.

It is satanic in that they are teaching that not all believers in Christ are "born again" and can partake of the sacrament of communion. It is Satanic to divide up Christ's church in to two sets of people, one elite set that gets to live and rule with Christ, and the peons that live on earth to be ruled. This is never taught in the bible.

All who believe are born again, all who believe will live with Christ forever ON THE NEW EARTH.

And guess what? Most of that 144,000 has (according to the watchtower) already been chosen. That means you don't have much chance to be born again. Nobody does.

You can be born again, Jim. You can be one of Christ's chosen and live with him forever. You don't have to be a second class citizen in Christ's Kingdom, Jim.

Tell that cult to leave you alone and find yourself a good bible teaching church. I suggest a good southern baptist church.

[ApologiaPhoenix]

Jim. Go to a JW Kingdom Hall when the bread and wine for Communion are passed around and asked why you can't partake. You can't because all of the 144,000 were chosen before 1935 and only they can partake.

[Cal_Minian]

Just remember when you discuss this with them, Jim, asking who can be born again. They will tell you only the special 144,000 get to be born again and have "eternal" life (life in Heaven) but you can have "immortal" life on earth.

[Dear Sparko,
One thing which should be clarified is that Jehovah's Witnesses view the reference to kingdom in John 3:3,5 to be a sharing in the act of ruling in the heavenly kingdom, not merely to live in the territory governed by the heavenly kingdom which would also include the earth. ]

But the bible says that whosoever believes in Jesus shall have ETERNAL life, not just the 144,000.

[Jehovah's Witnesses view John 3:15 as pertaining to all humanity and not just those who participate in the kingdom by ruling in heaven. ]

Now that you understand the points I am discussing, go back and re-read my first post in this tread for the proof that everyone who believes can have eternal life and be born again, not just the 144,000.

[Jehovah's Witnesses would agree that all who believe can have eternal life and that the being born again (Jn 3:3,5) is for those who rule with Christ in heaven.]



How have you been, Sparko?

Regards,
Cal

[Cal_Minian]

Sparko:
The Watchtower wants you to think that only 144,000 (the little flock) are born again and will be with Jesus in Heaven.

Cal:
The number 144,000 is found in the book of Revelation. It is the number of the group who rules with Christ on Mount Zion.

NRS Revelation 14:1 Then I looked, and there was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion! And with him were one hundred forty-four thousand who had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads.

I would also like to note that we did not make up this number like Trinitarians make up the number three with respect to God. God is one. Everybody knows that.

Sparko:
That is not true. All Christians are born again and so can you be. In John 3 Jesus tells how and who gets to be born again. Lets go through John 3 and see what Jesus has to say...John3:3In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again."

Cal:
All of the references to kingdom in John 3 are said by [I]Bauer-Danker-Arndt-Gingrich to have the sense of the act of ruling:
a term relating to royal administration 1. the act of ruling

There are rules and there are subjects. Both have everlasting life. However the subjects are not being discussed in detail in this passage. However ruling in heaven is one the "heavenly things" to which Jesus refers in John 3:12. The subjects are "about earthly things."


NRS John 3:12 If I have told you about earthly things and you do not believe, how can you believe if I tell you about heavenly things?

More earthly things:
LXE Psalm 37:11 But the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.. 29 But the righteous shall inherit the earth, and dwell upon it for ever.


-Cal

[Sparko]

Sparko:
The Watchtower wants you to think that only 144,000 (the little flock) are born again and will be with Jesus in Heaven.

Cal:
The number 144,000 is found in the book of Revelation. It is the number of the group who rules with Christ on Mount Zion.


I would also like to note that we did not make up this number like Trinitarians make up the number three with respect to God. God is one. Everybody knows that.

Where does it say that the 144,000 will be the only ones in heaven?




Sparko:
That is not true. All Christians are born again and so can you be. In John 3 Jesus tells how and who gets to be born again. Lets go through John 3 and see what Jesus has to say...John3:3In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again."

Cal:
All of the references to kingdom in John 3 are said by [I]Bauer-Danker-Arndt-Gingrich to have the sense of the act of ruling:

There are rules and there are subjects. Both have everlasting life. However the subjects are not being discussed in detail in this passage. However ruling in heaven is one the "heavenly things" to which Jesus refers in John 3:12. The subjects are "about earthly things."


More earthly things:
LXE Psalm 37:11 But the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.. 29 But the righteous shall inherit the earth, and dwell upon it for ever.


-Cal

which one of the tribes do you belong to Cal? The 144,000 are the from the 12 tribes of israel. can you tell me which tribe Russell was from? Or any of the other JW leaders?

[Cal_Minian]

Sparko:
Where does it say that the 144,000 will be the only ones in heaven?

which one of the tribes do you belong to Cal? The 144,000 are the from the 12 tribes of israel. can you tell me which tribe Russell was from? Or any of the other JW leaders?

Cal:
Sparko, how have you been? Here is the difference between JWs and Trinitarians. JWs take a basic concept that is taught by bible writers in context and then, yes, we do make interpretations based upon our understanding of facts. We do not infer that there are 144,000 because there are twelve different verses each mentioning a group of 12,000 and then just flat out make up the number.

However Trinitarians have many verses where it says that God is one and that there is one God but still decide on their own that God is three. How? I don't know, they pulled that number out of thin air! And then before they prove God is three they start trying to identify the three persons of God.

You should never get to the point of trying to identify the three until you prove that three is a number of God.

JWs on the other hand are interpreting a basic concept a bible writer taught in context. There is nothing wrong with that, is there?

Bible writers also teach the basic concept of monotheism. Monos = only and Theos = God. Jesus combined those words when he described his Father in John 17:3. He called his Father the MONOS QEOS. We are also told there is one-God. Mal 2:10, 1Co 8:6, Eph 4:6 are three different witnesses for this and guess what. They also in the same text identify the Father as that one God.

That is the monotheism of the first century bible writers.

So how can you criticize JWs for interpreting a concept taught by a bible writer when you hold to a concept that no bible writer teaches in context, that God is three persons and that those three persons are Father, Son and Holy Ghost?

-Cal


Cal_Minian, please avoid derailing these threads with off-topic rants on your pet topic.

[Sparko]

Sparko:
Where does it say that the 144,000 will be the only ones in heaven?

which one of the tribes do you belong to Cal? The 144,000 are the from the 12 tribes of israel. can you tell me which tribe Russell was from? Or any of the other JW leaders?

Cal:
Sparko, how have you been? Here is the difference between JWs and Trinitarians. JWs take a basic concept that is taught by bible writers in context and then, yes, we do make interpretations based upon our understanding of facts. We do not infer that there are 144,000 because there are twelve different verses each mentioning a group of 12,000 and then just flat out make up the number.

I never claimed you did that. But you do use the number mentioned in Revelation (you just quoted it to me in the last post) and claim that 144,000 Jehovah's witnesses will be there.

But the verse says that the 144,000 will be from the 12 tribes.

Rev 7
4Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.
5From the tribe of Judah 12,000 were sealed,
from the tribe of Reuben 12,000,
from the tribe of Gad 12,000,
6from the tribe of Asher 12,000,
from the tribe of Naphtali 12,000,
from the tribe of Manasseh 12,000,
7from the tribe of Simeon 12,000,
from the tribe of Levi 12,000,
from the tribe of Issachar 12,000,
8from the tribe of Zebulun 12,000,
from the tribe of Joseph 12,000,
from the tribe of Benjamin 12,000.


So which tribe are you from? Which tribe was Russell from? or any of the other JW leaders over the years?

It also says in rev 14 that they were all men and virgins.

rev 14:2 ...No one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth. 4These are those who did not defile themselves with women, for they kept themselves pure.

which of the JW leaders were virgins?

[John Goddard]

It also says in rev 14 that they were all men and virgins.

This probably refers to being a virgin with God, as in, not following other gods. I doubt it has anything to do with being a man who has not had sex.

Revelation 2:20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.

Revelation 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

[Sparko]

This probably refers to being a virgin with God, as in, not following other gods. I doubt it has anything to do with being a man who has not had sex.

Revelation 2:20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.

Revelation 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

:argh:

IT specifically SAYS they were virgins and they have not defiled themselves with women and were virgins. That means NO SEX. sheeh.

[John Goddard]

:argh:

IT specifically SAYS they were virgins and they have not defiled themselves with women and were virgins. That means NO SEX. sheeh.

This specifically says Samaria and Jerusalem were virgins and later whores, but it has nothing to do with sex either.

Ezekiel 23:3 And they committed whoredoms in Egypt; they committed whoredoms in their youth: there were their breasts pressed, and there they bruised the teats of their virginity.

Add: JWs also do not pledge Roman goddesses Liberty and Justice for all. Hint.

[Cal_Minian]

I never claimed you did that. But you do use the number mentioned in Revelation (you just quoted it to me in the last post) and claim that 144,000 Jehovah's witnesses will be there.

But the verse says that the 144,000 will be from the 12 tribes.

Rev 7
4Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.
5From the tribe of Judah 12,000 were sealed,
from the tribe of Reuben 12,000,
from the tribe of Gad 12,000,
6from the tribe of Asher 12,000,
from the tribe of Naphtali 12,000,
from the tribe of Manasseh 12,000,
7from the tribe of Simeon 12,000,
from the tribe of Levi 12,000,
from the tribe of Issachar 12,000,
8from the tribe of Zebulun 12,000,
from the tribe of Joseph 12,000,
from the tribe of Benjamin 12,000.


So which tribe are you from? Which tribe was Russell from? or any of the other JW leaders over the years?

It also says in rev 14 that they were all men and virgins.

rev 14:2 ...No one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth. 4These are those who did not defile themselves with women, for they kept themselves pure.

which of the JW leaders were virgins?

Your opening post was trying to make the claim that in John 3 one had to be born again to have everlasting life. I showed you that the Greek and the context indicates that this passage deals with those who rule in the kingdom, not everyone. So before you change the subject to the identity of the 144,000, do you concede that point?

[Sparko]

Your opening post was trying to make the claim that in John 3 one had to be born again to have everlasting life. I showed you that the Greek and the context indicates that this passage deals with those who rule in the kingdom, not everyone. So before you change the subject to the identity of the 144,000, do you concede that point?

since the people you think will rule will be the 144,000 mentioned in revelation, it is on topic. The 144,000 is from the 12 tribes of isreal, it even specifically mentions each tribe by name.

it is you trying to change the topic.

[Sparko]

This specifically says Samaria and Jerusalem were virgins and later whores, but it has nothing to do with sex either.

Ezekiel 23:3 And they committed whoredoms in Egypt; they committed whoredoms in their youth: there were their breasts pressed, and there they bruised the teats of their virginity.

Add: JWs also do not pledge Roman goddesses Liberty and Justice for all. Hint.


ezekiel 23 is a parable and the LORD explains who the two sisters were in the introduction to the parable. You can't just play hop scotch and equate the two completely different books and situations just because you want to.

[John Goddard]

ezekiel 23 is a parable and the LORD explains who the two sisters were in the introduction to the parable. You can't just play hop scotch and equate the two completely different books and situations just because you want to.

Sounds like the same situation to me, following Jesus wherever he goes, not other gods -- spiritual virgins and loyal, not whores with other gods.

Of what purpose would it serve for these 144,000 to never have had sexual intercourse, are they Catholic priests or something? That doesn't even fit with any relevant theme here.

Anyway they are the opposite of the Whore of Babylon which is the same whore Aholibah/Jerusalem in Ezekiel. Faith vs. unfaithful Israel, no hopscotch.

[Sparko]

Sounds like the same situation to me, following Jesus wherever he goes, not other gods -- spiritual virgins and loyal, not whores with other gods.

Of what purpose would it serve for these 144,000 to never have had sexual intercourse, are they Catholic priests or something? That doesn't even fit with any relevant theme here.

Anyway they are the opposite of the Whore of Babylon which is the same whore Aholibah/Jerusalem in Ezekiel. Faith vs. unfaithful Israel, no hopscotch.

Catholic priests????? what are you smoking?

Obviously you have not even bothered to read the context of the chapters. Kindly don't reply to my messages until you do your homework.

[Cal_Minian]

Catholic priests????? what are you smoking?

Obviously you have not even bothered to read the context of the chapters. Kindly don't reply to my messages until you do your homework.

I don't think you can limit who posts to you unless you go into the locker room:eek:

[John Goddard]

There's no good reason why these 144,000 need to be sexual virgins. Is sex nasty and sinful or something? :duh:

But we all know it is important to be spiritually faithful and not whores by following other gods.

[Sparko]

I don't think you can limit who posts to you unless you go into the locker room:eek:

read the first post again. This is my thread and I specifically said this is not a regular debate thread.

Let me repeat it here and any further posts that are not in align with this message will be deleted:

This thread is for those who may have honest questions about this subject only and won't be allowed to deteriorate into a free for all or go off the topic of being born again and being a child of God. The thread will be run similar to a Theology 101 or Sanctuary thread, where the posters can interact with the thread starter by asking questions or answering questions (respectful interaction), but it is not for debating and arguing.