The Pagan Next Door [Archive] - TheologyWeb Campus

Meh_Gerbil

June 19th 2005, 09:50 PM

technomage

June 19th 2005, 10:17 PM

Gods and Goddesses:
First off, I explained to her that some pagans worship a god or a goddess or perhaps a whole slew of 'em. However, these gods and goddesses aren't the same as the G_d of the Bible just like my daughter has a mom and the little boy has a mom but they aren't the same mommy. I told her (from our Christian perspective) that we believe our G_d is the one true god and that the others are false gods.

Hmmm. Well, the problem there is that some Wiccans believe that haShem of the Bible is the same as our Lord and Lady. However--again, from a Christian perspective--such a belief would be in error ... well meaning, but incorrect.

Magic:
I explained to her that Christians don't use magic and that there are two types of magic. There is the magic which is actually illusions - that from our perspective these tricks are harmless fun. Then there is the magic of the pagan where a god or goddess intervenes on behalf of the magic user -- and that this is magic we avoid.

That's an accurate enough explanation for a young lady. It's not technically accurate ... but at this age (and with most Christians at any age), that degree of accuracy is not necessary.

Potions:
I had to explain that medicine isn't the same as a potion - that a potion is a combination of elements the use of which is expected to gain intervention of a god or a goddess. There is nothing wrong with chemistry, or mixing ingredients together to make medicine, however, we don't invoke a pagan god or a goddess in the creation of our medicines -- which is why they aren't potions.

Again, as with magic ... close enough for most people.

Letme know what you think about my answers.

Sounds like you've given a great deal of thought to these answers. Thank you, my friend.

Justin

Darth Executor

June 19th 2005, 10:19 PM

Darth Executor

June 19th 2005, 10:25 PM

Gods and Goddesses:
First off, I explained to her that some pagans worship a god or a goddess or perhaps a whole slew of 'em. However, these gods and goddesses aren't the same as the G_d of the Bible just like my daughter has a mom and the little boy has a mom but they aren't the same mommy. I told her (from our Christian perspective) that we believe our G_d is the one true god and that the others are false gods.

Skip the false gods part. Just tell her Yahweh is stronger.

Magic:
I explained to her that Christians don't use magic and that there are two types of magic. There is the magic which is actually illusions - that from our perspective these tricks are harmless fun. Then there is the magic of the pagan where a god or goddess intervenes on behalf of the magic user -- and that this is magic we avoid.

Unlike Justin, I'm gonna come out and say this is pure bogus. Tell her that pagan magic is the equivalent of our prayer. That's all she needs to know for now.

Potions:
I had to explain that medicine isn't the same as a potion - that a potion is a combination of elements the use of which is expected to gain intervention of a god or a goddess. There is nothing wrong with chemistry, or mixing ingredients together to make medicine, however, we don't invoke a pagan god or a goddess in the creation of our medicines -- which is why they aren't potions.

I'm not really familiar with potions but I wasn't aware that they had anything to do with pagan gods. They're harmless unless somebody puts poison in them.

Then my daughter wanted to know why we believe the Bible and how we know its true and I told her that is something we can investigate together if she'd like. I always stress with my children that I'm a Christian, that I'd like them to be Christian because it is the only true way, but that in the end they must decide for themselves.

I suggest you read up on some pagan myths and explain to her why pagan gods are weak and unworthy of worship (for example, the Norse gods could be killed).

Meh_Gerbil

June 20th 2005, 05:15 AM

You'll put the temptation in her face then tell her not to do it. That's the best way to have her try to cast a spell on you so you can buy her that stuffed animal she's always wanted. Let me write up a better answer for you.

I'm concerned about accurately representing another world view -- I'd rather talk to her about it than have her learn Pagan on the street. You know, learning Pagan on the street -- how dangerous that can be -- street paganism.

Hey, I saw Grease. It ain't pretty.

Meh_Gerbil

June 20th 2005, 05:16 AM

Justin:

Feel free to pass along more accurate definitions for those terms.
Thanks for your input.

Darth Executor

June 20th 2005, 08:49 AM

tmancour

June 20th 2005, 04:22 PM

My daughter has a new friend, and as luck would have it, the little degenerate is a pagan. Seriously, though, he's a really polite 11 year old and they play very well together -- however, he's been telling my kid about his mommy's religion and I'm trying to help her fill in the gaps.

She wants to know about spells, potions, gods & goddesses and so forth. I'm trying to explain to her that these things aren't for the Christian and I want to run a couple of my explanations past some real infid-- er... pagans to make sure that I didn't flub it up too bad.

Thanks for making the effort. Not many Christians are as fair-minded as you.

It's ironic, actually, because I've just sent my two oldest kids (5 and 3) to a Christian Vacation Bible School, in order to appease the grandparents. Please note that this was done UNDER PROTEST, but I did it as a way of a) honoring my Christian ancestors (honoring your ancestors is a big pagan thing) and b) introducing them to a common mythology present in our society.

I had to preface the whole thing by explaining that there are Church People and Wizard People, and we are Wizard People. Church People don't really understand Wizard People, and have some funny ideas about the God and the Goddess, namely, they only have a God. He thought that was strange. He pointed out that he had a mommy and a daddy, just like there was a Goddess and a God, and then wanted to know if Church people had mommies. I explained to him that yes, they do, they just don't think that God is a mommy, just a daddy. That confused him and gave him something to talk about in class -- much to the mortification of my mother.

On the whole they behaved like perfect little heathens.

Gods and Goddesses:
First off, I explained to her that some pagans worship a god or a goddess or perhaps a whole slew of 'em. However, these gods and goddesses aren't the same as the G_d of the Bible just like my daughter has a mom and the little boy has a mom but they aren't the same mommy. I told her (from our Christian perspective) that we believe our G_d is the one true god and that the others are false gods.

Good, as far as it goes; I am a little concerned that they will have shouting matches over which God is real, and that could lead to some uncomfortable play dates. When talking to my kids, I never called Jehovah a false god; as a Pagan I would appreciate the same courtesy, even though I know you are probably bound by dogma otherwise.

Magic:
I explained to her that Christians don't use magic and that there are two types of magic. There is the magic which is actually illusions - that from our perspective these tricks are harmless fun. Then there is the magic of the pagan where a god or goddess intervenes on behalf of the magic user -- and that this is magic we avoid.

Again, good as far as it goes. You might point out that Pagans usually spell magick with a k to distinguish it from stage magick.

Potions:
I had to explain that medicine isn't the same as a potion - that a potion is a combination of elements the use of which is expected to gain intervention of a god or a goddess. There is nothing wrong with chemistry, or mixing ingredients together to make medicine, however, we don't invoke a pagan god or a goddess in the creation of our medicines -- which is why they aren't potions.

LOL. I had to chuckle because my wife (a secular humanist agnostic -- go figure) is a research scientist who "mixes potions" and "sacrifices animals" (mice -- hundreds of mice) and we often joke that she's more of an alchemist than I am.

In general, potions are a very minor, unimportant aspect of witchcraft.

Then my daughter wanted to know why we believe the Bible and how we know its true and I told her that is something we can investigate together if she'd like. I always stress with my children that I'm a Christian, that I'd like them to be Christian because it is the only true way, but that in the end they must decide for themselves.

At any rate, I want to make sure I accurately portray Pagan belief and I also told her to feel free to talk with the kid and learn more and that I'm always available to discuss it if she wants to know more about what I believe.

Letme know what you think about my answers.

I think you did admirably, under the circumstances. I hope you will continue to keep us posted about any further questions she might have.

Arion the Blue
High Druid of Durham

tmancour

June 20th 2005, 04:25 PM

I suggest you read up on some pagan myths and explain to her why pagan gods are weak and unworthy of worship (for example, the Norse gods could be killed).

This is a little disrespectful. If I recall correctly, there was a certain avatar of Jehovah that got nailed to a tree once and died. By most accounts he wasn't either weak or unworthy of worship. Why be insulting?

Arion

Meh_Gerbil

June 20th 2005, 05:13 PM

You're concerned about the wrong thing then. You should be marketing your own religion at the same time unless you want her to think paganism is "cooler" and abandon you.

I refuse to brow beat my children into getting on their knees and saying the 'Salvation Prayer'. If they are one of Jesus Christ's and are called they will hear his voice and they will follow him. If not, all the brainwashing in the world on my part will only cause them to grow up to be angry exchristians.

I'm very clear that I'm a Christian and that their mother and I are convinced that Jesus Christ is the 'one way, the one truth, and the one life' and that they will obey us while they are in our home -- however, they have to decide for themselves if they are going to be Christians or not.

I want to be there when they face the inevidible crises of deciding which path they are going to follow. If my daughter becomes a Wiccan I want her to do it out in the open and not have to pretend she is otherwise.

This is a difficult step of faith for me to take as a parent. I'd love to sit them down and force the 'Jesus Prayer' onto them just so I could write a date in their Bibles and forget about it. However, I'm looking for the call of the Holy Spirit upon their lives and I don't want some stupid rote prayer to get in the way of a vibrant, real, and lasting relationship with the holy.

Ever since I was 6 my relationship with G_d has been an intensly personal call -- if my kids don't pick up on that then there is nothing I can do about it.

Darth Executor

June 20th 2005, 05:17 PM

This is a little disrespectful.

Most Christians would simply tell you the gods are satan. Would you prefer that?

If I recall correctly, there was a certain avatar of Jehovah that got nailed to a tree once and died. By most accounts he wasn't either weak or unworthy of worship. Why be insulting?
Arion

:lol: There is more to strength and weakness than having a mortal physical body.

Meh_Gerbil

June 20th 2005, 05:20 PM

As an example of my approach:

We had some Mormons come to our door and my girls overheard us talking. After the Mormons left I explained to them that the Mormons believe that Jesus and Satan are brothers. I then asked them if they knew any verses that might cast such a claim into doubt.

They both recited John 3:16

"For G_d so love the world that He sent is ONLY BEGOTTEN SON....."

----------------------------------------

Learn all about the different world views and while doing so get so acquainted with the truth that the errors of these other world views become very obvious.

Darth Executor

June 20th 2005, 05:25 PM

I refuse to brow beat my children

You missed my point completely so there is little point in me trying to elaborate on it.

Meh_Gerbil

June 20th 2005, 05:37 PM

You missed my point completely so there is little point in me trying to elaborate on it.

I assure you, my concerns are very much like yours.
And your elaboration would be appreciated.

I'm very clear with them on what is right and what is wrong -- I left no question that Wicca is not the right way.

She definitely sees the 'cool' factor in it and I'll be explaining to her why we don't pick world views based on the 'cool' factor.

Darth Executor

June 20th 2005, 05:52 PM

I'll make one last comment. Try to show her the "cool factor" in Christianity. It's there but it's often overlooked.

eudyptes

June 20th 2005, 07:32 PM

I refuse to brow beat my children into getting on their knees and saying the 'Salvation Prayer'. If they are one of Jesus Christ's and are called they will hear his voice and they will follow him. If not, all the brainwashing in the world on my part will only cause them to grow up to be angry exchristians.

I'm very clear that I'm a Christian and that their mother and I are convinced that Jesus Christ is the 'one way, the one truth, and the one life' and that they will obey us while they are in our home -- however, they have to decide for themselves if they are going to be Christians or not.

I want to be there when they face the inevidible crises of deciding which path they are going to follow. If my daughter becomes a Wiccan I want her to do it out in the open and not have to pretend she is otherwise.

This is a difficult step of faith for me to take as a parent. I'd love to sit them down and force the 'Jesus Prayer' onto them just so I could write a date in their Bibles and forget about it. However, I'm looking for the call of the Holy Spirit upon their lives and I don't want some stupid rote prayer to get in the way of a vibrant, real, and lasting relationship with the holy.

Ever since I was 6 my relationship with G_d has been an intensly personal call -- if my kids don't pick up on that then there is nothing I can do about it.

My 2 cents...

I've been involved with youth/college age ministry since 1991. It is distressing and disturbing to watch "good church kids" fall/run away from the "faith of their parents".

I can't count how many times I've talked with a 'kid' who really didn't know why or what they believed, they just accepted things because that's what Mom and Dad told me to believe. Most of these kids had some real struggles with their faith - or lack thereof. I've always believed that we should represent what other faiths believe in a fair and nonsensationalized way, taking the time to explain why, as a Christian, I disagree with the belief. (Slightly off topic, even if they don't look at other beliefs I think we should challenge teens to learn the whats and whys -- not to debate or argue, but to make their faith, their faith -- to help them to develop a real relationship with Christ. Not a rote, Sunday school knowledge of Mom & Dad's beliefs.)

I've had some parents 'take me to task' on my approach...but in sitting down with most of them and talking through it, they tended to agree. If we refuse to talk - in reasonable tones and honestly - about other beliefs we set them up to be cool and taboo to the mind of someone wanting to rebel. If they already have the information and the counter to it, it takes away some of the taboo nature.

I think your approach is the right way to do things, be honest, reasonable and trust God, nothing wrong with that.

Meh_Gerbil

June 20th 2005, 08:11 PM

I'll make one last comment. Try to show her the "cool factor" in Christianity. It's there but it's often overlooked.

I agree in part -- but I'm looking for them to develop a relationship with G_d.

Darth Executor

June 20th 2005, 09:10 PM

I agree in part -- but I'm looking for them to develop a relationship with G_d.

First, spelling God "G_d" is annoying and unnecessary. Second, they can't do that if they dump Christianity.

technomage

June 20th 2005, 09:17 PM

First, spelling God "G_d" is annoying and unnecessary.

Darth, my friend ... you may find it annoying, but does not own scripture recommend that you not judge those who do such things for consience's sake? Rom 14:1 "Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters."

Second, they can't do that if they dump Christianity.

And this is the point where you both enter the land of "Doctrinally correct ... but factually in error." But that's a topic for another time.

Darth Executor

June 20th 2005, 09:26 PM

Darth, my friend ... you may find it annoying, but does not own scripture recommend that you not judge those who do such things for consience's sake? Rom 14:1 "Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters."

Conscience's sake? Trendyness's sake maybe. I don't really care if he does it or not I simply stated my opinion.

And this is the point where you both enter the land of "Doctrinally correct ... but factually in error." But that's a topic for another time.

Yes yes nothing can keep us away from God I know... :ahem:

technomage

June 20th 2005, 09:37 PM

Conscience's sake? Trendyness's sake maybe.

Maybe if you knew why he does so you'd be less likely to shoot your mouth off foolishly, my friend.

Darth Executor

June 20th 2005, 09:45 PM

Maybe if you knew why he does so you'd be less likely to shoot your mouth off foolishly, my friend.

Please enlighten me.

technomage

June 20th 2005, 09:46 PM

Please enlighten me.
Why not ask the Mad_Gerbil directly? I have my conjecture as to why, but MG is the "horse's mouth," so to speak.

Darth Executor

June 20th 2005, 09:48 PM

Why not ask the Mad_Gerbil directly? I have my conjecture as to why, but MG is the "horse's mouth," so to speak.

You postulated that I was wrong. Surely youd must have something to say otherwise you wouldn't have said anything.

technomage

June 20th 2005, 09:58 PM

You postulated that I was wrong.

No, I didn't. I postulated that this may be an issue of conscience with him. Of course, I also postulated that you were shooting your mouth off foolishly, and it doesn't look like that's changed, either.

As for my conjecture: I know many practicing Jews do not spell out the vowels in English words such as G_D or L_rd, to make a distinction (in their minds) between HaShem, the True G_d, and false Gods, and to prevent even taking the word G_D in vain. I would conjecture that MG does something very similar.

Darth Executor

June 20th 2005, 10:01 PM

No, I didn't. I postulated that this may be an issue of conscience with him. Of course, I also postulated that you were shooting your mouth off foolishly, and it doesn't look like that's changed, either.

Define "shooting my mouth of foolishly"? Do you mean that I did not think of the "good" reasons why he did it? Because I knew the stuff you gave me in the next section already and I don't buy it. I thought it was a dumb trend before and I still do. If that offends you or anybody else, too bad.

As for my conjecture: I know many practicing Jews do not spell out the vowels in English words such as G_D or L_rd, to make a distinction (in their minds) between HaShem, the True G_d, and false Gods, and to prevent even taking the word G_D in vain. I would conjecture that MG does something very similar.

And I would conjencture that it's a redundant Jewish trend that MG found catchy.

technomage

June 20th 2005, 10:07 PM

Define "shooting my mouth of foolishly"? Do you mean that I did not think of the "good" reasons why he did it?

Perhaps you are shooting off your mouth foolishly because Rom 14 makes it quite clear that, according to your scriptures, you are to respect your brother's choice to do this, regardless of your opinion of it.

Rom 14:4 "Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand."

Mad_Gerbil is not your servant, so who are you to look down on him for choosing to do this?

Darth Executor

June 20th 2005, 10:10 PM

Perhaps you are shooting off your mouth foolishly because Rom 14 makes it quite clear that, according to your scriptures, you are to respect your brother's choice to do this, regardless of your opinion of it.

Rom 14:4 "Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand."

Mad_Gerbil is not your servant, so who are you to look down on him for choosing to do this?

Would you like more straw for your man masta Justin?

technomage

June 20th 2005, 10:18 PM

Would you like more straw for your man masta Justin?
At this point you have a choice: you may bow to the authority of your scripture, or rebel against it. But if you choose to rebel against the authority of your scripture, I'd recommend changing the little icon by the penquin beneath your name.

You might also want to skip the racial jokes: I find them to be repugnant.

Darth Executor

June 20th 2005, 10:22 PM

At this point you have a choice: you may bow to the authority of your scripture, or rebel against it. But if you choose to rebel against the authority of your scripture, I'd recommend changing the little icon by the penquin beneath your name.

Or I can sit here and keep laughing as you're getting ridiculously worked up over a straw man of what you think I meant to say.

You might also want to skip the racial jokes: I find them to be repugnant.

What racial joke? It was a reference to Batman's butler...

technomage

June 20th 2005, 10:44 PM

Or I can sit here and keep laughing as you're getting ridiculously worked up over a straw man of what you think I meant to say.

Darth, I'm not making a "straw man"--that's my honest, earnest assesment of your statement regarding MG. Take it or leave it, but to be perfectly blunt your actions strike me as those of a bratty, offensive idiot, who only cares about his own likes and dislikes.

What racial joke? It was a reference to Batman's butler...

My apologies--I've not seen Batman, but I've lived in the South, and been accused of racism far too many times to accept such a statement with any good grace.

Justin

Darth Executor

June 20th 2005, 10:49 PM

Darth, I'm not making a "straw man"--that's my honest, earnest assesment of your statement regarding MG.

No, you've been getting worked up over nothing and don't even realise it. I commented on an annoyance and you're getting yourself so worked up that it now appears as if I am dictating divine justice and threatening to drop Mjolnir on the rodent's head. Chill.

Take it or leave it, but to be perfectly blunt your actions strike me as those of a bratty, offensive idiot, who only cares about his own likes and dislikes.

Thank you for making the previous psychoanalysis even easier.

My apologies--I've not seen Batman, but I've lived in the South, and been accused of racism far too many times to accept such a statement with any good grace.

Justin

Fair enough.

technomage

June 20th 2005, 10:50 PM

No, you've been getting worked up over nothing and don't even realise it. I commented on an annoyance and you're getting yourself so worked up that it now appears as if I am dictating divine justice and threatening to drop Mjolnir on the rodent's head. Chill.

Nice example of "mindreader's fallacy." Try reading this.

Darth Executor

June 20th 2005, 10:53 PM

Nice example of "mindreader's fallacy." Try reading this.

:hug:

tmancour

June 21st 2005, 09:35 AM

Most Christians would simply tell you the gods are satan. Would you prefer that?

That's why I said it was only a "little" disrespectful! :lol:

:lol: There is more to strength and weakness than having a mortal physical body.

My point exactly. Just ask Odin.

Arion

tmancour

June 21st 2005, 09:44 AM

:hug:

I'm glad you two made up -- but this "dueling scriptures" kind of thing is one of the reasons I feel closed canon text-based religions are not a very good idea. Sure, it's there in black and white -- but that just means it's one more thing to argue about.

Yeah, yeah, paganboy shoots his mouth off again. Let me get back to my bonfire and fertility rites . . .

Speaking of which, Happy Solstice to everyone! May your Summer be cool and mild, your mosquitos infertile, and your annoying neighbors visiting their in-laws for a month!

Blessed be,

Arion the Blue

Cu Mhorrigan

June 21st 2005, 10:31 AM

MG since you are honestly asking for advice, here is my two cents.

1) as hard as it may be fore you, dont turn it into "Which religion is the Cooler one". Hands down the parents religion will always be the loser in that battle because in most cases Parents are NEVER EVER cool.
No matter how hard you try to the child's mind the parent is LAME, GEEKY, NERDY, and down right embarrassing.

2) I would Humbly suggest, that perhaps you introduce your daughter to pagans you can trust Like Justin or tmancour and let THEM explain paganism to your child. SInce We who are older know beter than an 11 year old about our beliefs, some of us can explain it in such away that it does not sound like we are prosletysing your child. Then when your child asks about your religion talk to her and be as frank as you have been. Just keep in mind that you need to keep things in terms of "What I believe and What they believe" and do your best to keep Hostility out of it. If it ticks daddy off, then most likely little suzy is going to running right to it.

3) Check out witchvox.com, and locate some of the More family friendly pagan groups to check out with your daughter. Go to a few festivals and Maybe even a public ritual or two. (You can opt to stand outside of the circle with your daughter and let her see what goes on.) If your daughter likes it then make sure you are there to keep your eye on her. This way she doesnt sneak around and you are able to supervise.

4) If your daughter's friend's parents are pagans ask them if they would not mind you observing a ritual with them. again Let your daughter see what they are doing and let her ask the questions BEFORE you give the answers.

I guess the point is get involved as much as you can. and if your daughter is serious about becomming a wiccan, be there to make sure she doesnt run into any lecherous boneheads like me. :wink:

Darth Executor

June 21st 2005, 11:01 AM

That's why I said it was only a "little" disrespectful! :lol:

Hey, that's the best I can do and still be faithful to my scriptures. :wink:

My point exactly. Just ask Odin.

Arion

*sigh*

My point was that I think pagan gods are weaker in terms of who can do more push-ups and blast stuff into oblivion faster There are some pagan gods that seem noble as well as some real jerks. The Jesus comparison was bad because unlike Baldr, when you kill Jesus He doesn't stay dead and when He dies He dies because God wills it, not because Loki tricked the gods into killing him..

Darth Executor

June 21st 2005, 11:06 AM

I'm glad you two made up -- but this "dueling scriptures" kind of thing is one of the reasons I feel closed canon text-based religions are not a very good idea. Sure, it's there in black and white -- but that just means it's one more thing to argue about.

Well, I never had a problem with Justin to begin with despite his liberal use of the word "idiot". I do wish he'd stop getting so worked up over what people say on the internet though.

tmancour

June 21st 2005, 01:10 PM

*sigh*

My point was that I think pagan gods are weaker in terms of who can do more push-ups and blast stuff into oblivion faster There are some pagan gods that seem noble as well as some real jerks. The Jesus comparison was bad because unlike Baldr, when you kill Jesus He doesn't stay dead and when He dies He dies because God wills it, not because Loki tricked the gods into killing him..

Point taken. As far as Unlimited Cosmic Power, the conception of Jehovah has got most of the Pagan gods beat. But that's one of the reasons Paganism has become attractive to people: it's really hard to relate to a deity that is just so freakin' potent that your entire life, in comparison, is negligable.

Arion

Meh_Gerbil

June 21st 2005, 03:11 PM

CU:

You actually have some decent advice in there.
Thanx.

technomage

June 21st 2005, 03:51 PM

I'm glad you two made up...

Ah, don't mind me ... I'm fairly short of temper anyway with my teeth having recently been yanked (got 29 teeth pulled on the 10th). Usually I'm at least a bit more patient.

Sorry, Darth ... chalk it up to sore gums.

Meh_Gerbil

June 21st 2005, 05:06 PM

Ah, don't mind me ... I'm fairly short of temper anyway with my teeth having recently been yanked (got 29 teeth pulled on the 10th). Usually I'm at least a bit more patient.

Sorry, Darth ... chalk it up to sore gums.

Out of respect for Darth I'm going to spell G_d in the future as _o_.
Hey, I'm willing to compromise.

Darth Executor

June 21st 2005, 05:43 PM

Out of respect for Darth I'm going to spell G_d in the future as _o_.
Hey, I'm willing to compromise.

:brood:

Darth Executor

June 21st 2005, 05:44 PM

Sorry, Darth ... chalk it up to sore gums.

No need, I don't get upset about the internet unless I'm sick and run into an LGM post.

technomage

June 21st 2005, 05:57 PM

No need, I don't get upset about the internet unless I'm sick and run into an LGM post.
Ah, I do occasionally. But this time I have an excuse!

:gummy:

Cynic Sage

June 21st 2005, 06:10 PM

I'll make one last comment. Try to show her the "cool factor" in Christianity. It's there but it's often overlooked.

As a former youth group leader, let me say that this "cool factor" in xtianity is but an illusion. Those who use the "cool factor" for evangelistic/instructional purpose will only succeed in sowing shallow baby-believers who either never grow into mature xtians, or apostasize.

Cynic Sage

June 21st 2005, 06:12 PM

I guess the point is get involved as much as you can. and if your daughter is serious about becomming a wiccan, be there to make sure she doesnt run into any lecherous boneheads like me. :wink:

MG didn't say anything about his daughter wanting to be Wiccan, did he?

Darth Executor

June 21st 2005, 06:55 PM

As a former youth group leader, let me say that this "cool factor" in xtianity is but an illusion. Those who use the "cool factor" for evangelistic/instructional purpose will only succeed in sowing shallow baby-believers who either never grow into mature xtians, or apostasize.

Really? It's worked pretty well for me. Of course, the cool factor isn't a good backbone but it is a good introduction and a way to get people's attention. When you start something it is good to take it to the end.

Darth Executor

June 21st 2005, 06:56 PM

Ah, I do occasionally. But this time I have an excuse!

:gummy:

What kind of teeth did they give you in return? Did you ask for adamantine ones alternating their coating between silver and diamond for maximum werewold biting efficiency?

Meh_Gerbil

June 21st 2005, 07:42 PM

Justin's bark is worse than his bite.

technomage

June 21st 2005, 07:48 PM

What kind of teeth did they give you in return? Did you ask for adamantine ones alternating their coating between silver and diamond for maximum werewold biting efficiency?
Dude, that's wa-a-a-ay to complex for me. :lol: Actually I don't even go see the prosthodontist until the end of July, so I get to sit around the house looking like my face has collapsed.

Justin's bark is worse than his bite.

:brood:

MG, why don't you come sit in this nice quiet room, and we'll have a chat. Won't take over about, oh, five minutes. And don't mind the lock on the door ... I have the key .... :bbat:

Cu Mhorrigan

June 22nd 2005, 02:00 PM

CU:

You actually have some decent advice in there.
Thanx.
COmes from My own search for spirituality and experience as a youth minister back in my xian days. The people who made my work easier were parents who actually got involved with the ministry and took the time to explain things to their child.

Meh_Gerbil

June 23rd 2005, 05:09 PM

COmes from My own search for spirituality and experience as a youth minister back in my xian days. The people who made my work easier were parents who actually got involved with the ministry and took the time to explain things to their child.

It is impossible for me to express how intriguing I find this paragraph.

Cu Mhorrigan

June 23rd 2005, 07:12 PM

Glad it amuses you, Unfortunately finding the parents was like pulling teet unless of course their kid wound up walking out of the church. then it was "Will you please go and talk to My daughter/SOn?"

Malista_Dove

November 17th 2006, 03:28 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Darth Executor

I suggest you read up on some pagan myths and explain to her why pagan gods are weak and unworthy of worship (for example, the Norse gods could be killed).

This is a little disrespectful. If I recall correctly, there was a certain avatar of Jehovah that got nailed to a tree once and died. By most accounts he wasn't either weak or unworthy of worship. Why be insulting?

Arion

I agree. This is extremely disrespectful. Wouldn't others feel offended by someone saying "The Christian god isn't worth worshipping." I believe many people would be offended.

I think that if you are going to post in a Pagan board that you should atleast take into consideration of their beliefs. It is disrespectful and offending.

I can understand if it was sarcasm, but if it wasn't....(which I'm sure it wasn't) then... :bonk:

Next time consider your words, your enviroment, and the fact that people that will be reading your post might actually be pagan and take it offensively.

Good Day... :bump:

Sevivon1913

November 17th 2006, 03:47 PM

I agree. This is extremely disrespectful. Wouldn't others feel offended by someone saying "The Christian god isn't worth worshipping." I believe many people would be offended.

I think that if you are going to post in a Pagan board that you should atleast take into consideration of their beliefs. It is disrespectful and offending.

I can understand if it was sarcasm, but if it wasn't....(which I'm sure it wasn't) then... :bonk:

Next time consider your words, your enviroment, and the fact that people that will be reading your post might actually be pagan and take it offensively.

Good Day... :bump:
What kind of psychopaths teach their children witchcraft and paganism?

I suggest to Meh Gerbil that he gives the little kid the phone number for child line.

Edit: That was a joke :tongue:

Malista_Dove

November 17th 2006, 04:52 PM

What kind of psychopaths teach their children witchcraft and paganism?

I suggest to Meh Gerbil that he gives the little kid the phone number for child line.

Edit: That was a joke :tongue:

Your funny.... :bravo:

Sevivon1913

November 17th 2006, 04:59 PM

Your funny.... :bravo:
I'm not going to enquire whether that was sarcasm or not :sad:

Malista_Dove

November 20th 2006, 11:08 AM

I'm not going to enquire whether that was sarcasm or not :sad:

No seriously..that was funny... :tongue:

aspiretohope

November 20th 2006, 11:28 AM

thread from the DEAD!

Malista_Dove

November 20th 2006, 01:08 PM

thread from the DEAD!

:eh:

aspiretohope

November 20th 2006, 01:15 PM

:eh:
melista duv = NECROMANCER

http://redwing.hutman.net/~Mreed/warriorshtm/necromancer.htm

Malista_Dove

November 20th 2006, 03:37 PM

melista duv = NECROMANCER

http://redwing.hutman.net/~Mreed/warriorshtm/necromancer.htm

Oh thanx for the insintive. Its a wonderful thing huh? =D

aspiretohope

November 20th 2006, 03:43 PM

Oh thanx for the insintive. Its a wonderful thing huh? =D
no

Malista_Dove

November 20th 2006, 04:19 PM

no

Why not? There isn't anything interesting enough for me that I have not already read on this site....So I will bring back old ones that I find interesting... :teeth:

aspiretohope

November 20th 2006, 04:39 PM

Why not? There isn't anything interesting enough for me that I have not already read on this site....So I will bring back old ones that I find interesting... :teeth:
you do that. just be aware that its not cool.

Malista_Dove

November 21st 2006, 10:51 AM

you do that. just be aware that its not cool.

Why is it not cool? What is wrong with discussing everything on the site even if its a little old? Or is there a reason at all...

guacamole

November 21st 2006, 11:20 AM

Why is it not cool? What is wrong with discussing everything on the site even if its a little old? Or is there a reason at all...

The kewel kids only like new threads. C'mon. Everyone's doin' it.

Malista_Dove

November 21st 2006, 04:28 PM

The kewel kids only like new threads. C'mon. Everyone's doin' it.

I'm not cool. I'm a nerd...=D I like to see what has been discussed in the past and to get new thoughts ....

FreezBee

May 30th 2007, 08:46 AM

The kewel kids only like new threads. C'mon. Everyone's doin' it.

Well, it is true that 90% of all threads are about a subject debated before -- and 72% of all threads is about a subject that is being debated in another thread that is at most three days old.

People lack imagination -- or possibly they just have a short memory?

- FreezBee

god rules

July 30th 2007, 10:23 AM

some advice from a former rebelious teen;
i was raised old school christianity. fire and brimestone. attended church every sunday twice and wednesday. if i didnt i was on a grease poll going down according to my dad. legalism and condemnation was the motivation to believe. this is so wrong and it is only by the grace of god that i came back to my faith in christ @ 35 yrs. old because if what my parents taught me was christianity i wouldn't want it. the best thing to do in my opinion is to lead by example, if your words don't match your actions your kids will see your faith as being disingenuine.

wowmy_sn

December 3rd 2007, 11:17 PM

Lepidopteryx

October 8th 2008, 09:38 AM

My daughter has a new friend, and as luck would have it, the little degenerate is a pagan. Seriously, though, he's a really polite 11 year old and they play very well together -- however, he's been telling my kid about his mommy's religion and I'm trying to help her fill in the gaps.

She wants to know about spells, potions, gods & goddesses and so forth. I'm trying to explain to her that these things aren't for the Christian and I want to run a couple of my explanations past some real infid-- er... pagans to make sure that I didn't flub it up too bad.

Gods and Goddesses:
First off, I explained to her that some pagans worship a god or a goddess or perhaps a whole slew of 'em. However, these gods and goddesses aren't the same as the G_d of the Bible just like my daughter has a mom and the little boy has a mom but they aren't the same mommy. I told her (from our Christian perspective) that we believe our G_d is the one true god and that the others are false gods.

Not all Pagans view the God and Goddess the same way. This Pagan sees your god the same as I see all other deities - as different manifestations of the creative/generative force if the Universe. I see all gods as equally real in that they represent real human beings' connection to the rest of all existence. It makes each of us an integral part of something that is not only bigger than ourselves, but greater than the sum of its parts.

Magic:
I explained to her that Christians don't use magic and that there are two types of magic. There is the magic which is actually illusions - that from our perspective these tricks are harmless fun. Then there is the magic of the pagan where a god or goddess intervenes on behalf of the magic user -- and that this is magic we avoid.

Magik isn't so much direct divine intervention - Pagans don't see the divine and the mundane as distinctly separate. The divine is inextricably woven into the mundane - this makes een such simlpe acts as composting kitchen scraps an act of worship. Magik is a channeling of the energies that already exist within a person and within his surroundings toward a specific end. It is not used capriciously, as any time you bend energies from their natural flow, there are consequences, sometimes ones that you did not anticipate. Furthermore, the Law of Three comes into play with both magikal and non-magikal actions - that which you do to another comes back to you thricefold - this applies to beneficent as well as malevolent actions.
One question for you. If you believe our gods and goddesses are in fact false, how can you believe that they intervene? And if they can't intervene, why would Christians need to avoid Magik?

Potions:
I had to explain that medicine isn't the same as a potion - that a potion is a combination of elements the use of which is expected to gain intervention of a god or a goddess. There is nothing wrong with chemistry, or mixing ingredients together to make medicine, however, we don't invoke a pagan god or a goddess in the creation of our medicines -- which is why they aren't potions.

Potions in many cases, ARE medicine. Many Pagans, because of our reverence for the Earth, prefer to get our medicines from natural sources rather than from Pfizer.
I don't know of any Pagan who believes that s/he can cause supernatural events to occur by throwing eye of newt and tongue of frog into a cauldron on the stroke of midnight.

Then my daughter wanted to know why we believe the Bible and how we know its true and I told her that is something we can investigate together if she'd like. I always stress with my children that I'm a Christian, that I'd like them to be Christian because it is the only true way, but that in the end they must decide for themselves.

Great answer. Too many parents are afraid to admit to their children that they don't have all the answers for fear of appearing weak. Letting your daughter see you actively seeking answers and seeking answers with her as well lets her know that it's okay to ask questions and that not knowing doesn't mean you're stupid. It just means you have some homework to do.
And not pushing your child to your own faith is also smart. My parents were/are fire-and-brimstone Southern Baptists, and they dragged me to church with them every Sunday morning, Sunday night, and Wednesday night, as well as to Vacation Bible School every summer, long after I had stopped believeing in their faith. As soon as I was old enough that they couldn't force me to go, I stopped going. Since then, pretty much the only time I set foot in a Christian church is for weddings and funerals. I raised my daughter as a Unitarian and a Pagan, and encouraged her to explore as many faith paths as piqued her interest, and find or create one that fulfilled her spiritual needs. She has forged an eclectic path for herself, and I am happy that she has a belief system that feeds her spirit.

At any rate, I want to make sure I accurately portray Pagan belief and I also told her to feel free to talk with the kid and learn more and that I'm always available to discuss it if she wants to know more about what I believe.

Again, great answer. Cutting her off from her friends because their religious beliefs don't agree with yours or otherwise trying to isolate her from beliefs different from your own will ALWAYS blow up in your face. much better for her to know that you cinsider her intelligent enough to ask questions and seek answers, and thta you're willing to talk about such things with her.

Letme know what you think about my answers.

I have to say that in many ways, you're one of the more open-minded Christians I have "met" when it comes to educating your child about other faiths. Too many are only concerned with making sure that their child believes only what the parents believe, don't encourage questioning, and completely flip when their child expresses interest or even simple curiosity about other religions.

technomage

October 8th 2008, 11:05 AM

I have to say that in many ways, you're one of the more open-minded Christians I have "met" when it comes to educating your child about other faiths.

Hi, Lep,

Gerbil may not be posting here right now (this is a very old thread), but I must note that I completely agree with your assessment. For a dirty nasty rodent, Teh Gerb is pretty cool. :wink:

Krusader

October 8th 2008, 01:45 PM

I'm concerned about accurately representing another world view -- I'd rather talk to her about it than have her learn Pagan on the street. You know, learning Pagan on the street -- how dangerous that can be -- street paganism.

Hey, I saw Grease. It ain't pretty.

Please, this daughter of yours is very young. You don't "discuss" things like paganism and witchcraft (which is what you're deling with), and let them make up their mind about it. I raised five children, and I would never have put them into a situation where they would be tempted to participate in occultism, which is pretty much what you're doing when her little playmate appears to be proselytizing her. Come on, you're the parent and are responsible to God to keep your child from that kind of temptation. Tell her that her playmate and mother are in a false religion that God has commanded that we have nothing to do with. That pretty much should do it. And keep her away from occultism and those who practice it.

Krusader

October 8th 2008, 01:47 PM

As a daughter, I appreciate your open-mindedness. I'm exploring religions right now (leaning towards Wicca, but was raised Christian) and my mom has been open-minded about it (she's a christian). It helps a lot to talk to her about it and I listen to her thoughts because she listens to mine. Anyways, just wanted to tell you I appreciate that you respect and care for your daughter... wish I had a dad that would do that lol.

Yeah, so you're a good example where all this "open-mindedness" in parenting gets you. Pretty soon the kid in Sunday School is doing the spookies up in the attic and drawing pentagrams.

technomage

October 8th 2008, 02:18 PM

Durthorin, Seri, and Lepidopteryx,

My friends, let this one go. I'll handle it. :smile:

Durthorin

October 8th 2008, 02:22 PM

Durthorin, Seri, and Lepidopteryx,

My friends, let this one go. I'll handle it. :smile:

May the Goddess bless your patience.

technomage

October 8th 2008, 02:27 PM

Every time I ask for patience, She puts me in circumstances that allow me to exercise and strengthen my patience. Sooner or later, I'll get smart and stop asking! :hehe:

Durthorin

October 8th 2008, 02:46 PM

Every time I ask for patience, She puts me in circumstances that allow me to exercise and strengthen my patience. Sooner or later, I'll get smart and stop asking! :hehe:

Yea, I can understand that, I once asked how can I serve and She has not stopped providing me answers in 7 years. :lol: Next time, no open ended questions. :ahem:

Seri

October 8th 2008, 02:53 PM

Durthorin, Seri, and Lepidopteryx,

My friends, let this one go. I'll handle it. :smile:

As you will it, my friend. Patience and strength of heart from the God and Goddess with you.

Krusader

October 8th 2008, 06:10 PM

As you will it, my friend. Patience and strength of heart from the God and Goddess with you.

Justin is going to handle it? Well, whatever he does say has no credulity with me, I remember very well what happened here. I remember very well.

Krusader

October 8th 2008, 06:14 PM

Yea, I can understand that, I once asked how can I serve and She has not stopped providing me answers in 7 years. :lol: Next time, no open ended questions. :ahem:

Talk to the horned god alot, do you?

Durthorin

October 8th 2008, 08:20 PM

Talk to the horned god alot, do you?

I speak to God and Goddess every day..

Brigid, grant me your courage this day
Danu, grant me your love and campassion
Morrigan, grant me your wisdom
Lugh, grant that what I do this day I do well.

I also ask their blessings on my family and loved ones.

Krusader

October 8th 2008, 11:11 PM

I speak to God and Goddess every day..

Brigid, grant me your courage this day
Danu, grant me your love and campassion
Morrigan, grant me your wisdom
Lugh, grant that what I do this day I do well.

I also ask their blessings on my family and loved ones.

Do you believe these gods and goddesses are actual spiritual entities?

Durthorin

October 9th 2008, 12:15 AM

Do you believe these gods and goddesses are actual spiritual entities?

Yes. I've spoken with my God's. I have been dead on an operating table and told I would not walk without a walker or use my left arm again. I've fallen and cried out for their help and been given it.

When a Doctor told me I should not expect to be able to walk without a walker in under a year, he looked at me with shock when I was running 3 miles in the morning inside of 2 months. I think his exact words were "I don't know what church you go to but I think I need to get a seat on one of those pews." he said I was a miracle. I take his word for it. From my standpoint I was the guy who could not walk up three steps and cried out to the Goddess when I fell down and had no strength and was given healing and strength.

Lepidopteryx

October 9th 2008, 07:40 AM

Yea, I can understand that, I once asked how can I serve and She has not stopped providing me answers in 7 years. :lol: Next time, no open ended questions. :ahem:

She'll do that - got to be careful what you ask for. :lol:

Krusader

October 9th 2008, 12:05 PM

Yes. I've spoken with my God's. I have been dead on an operating table and told I would not walk without a walker or use my left arm again. I've fallen and cried out for their help and been given it.

When a Doctor told me I should not expect to be able to walk without a walker in under a year, he looked at me with shock when I was running 3 miles in the morning inside of 2 months. I think his exact words were "I don't know what church you go to but I think I need to get a seat on one of those pews." he said I was a miracle. I take his word for it. From my standpoint I was the guy who could not walk up three steps and cried out to the Goddess when I fell down and had no strength and was given healing and strength.

Well, you've been through some tough experiences, indeed. However, I would remind you that Christian Science, Voodoo, and many cultic systems (not to mention false revivals) claim all kinds of cures for this or that disease or injury. Jesus warned us of false signs and wonders in chapter 24 of Matthew.

I believe the "goddess" might give you everything you want - for a time. And after you've served your purpose, Dur, who will pay for your sins?

Durthorin

October 9th 2008, 03:08 PM

Well, you've been through some tough experiences, indeed. However, I would remind you that Christian Science, Voodoo, and many cultic systems (not to mention false revivals) claim all kinds of cures for this or that disease or injury. Jesus warned us of false signs and wonders in chapter 24 of Matthew.

I believe the "goddess" might give you everything you want - for a time. And after you've served your purpose, Dur, who will pay for your sins?

I have no sins, that is a Christian concept. As for my Goddess. She has stood by me, supported me and guided me over 20 years. She has the advantage over your god of consistency. Your response is also if you will pardon my amusement predictable. When one sees the spiritual as a duality like you do, then if other gods manifest themselves in the lives of their worshipers since they can not be your "God", then they must be your "Devil". No matter what they do you must view it as a preamble to an evil purpose.. If not, then one of the underpinnings of your faith would be false.

Blessed Be, Dur

Krusader

October 9th 2008, 05:10 PM

I have no sins, that is a Christian concept. As for my Goddess. She has stood by me, supported me and guided me over 20 years. She has the advantage over your god of consistency. Your response is also if you will pardon my amusement predictable. When one sees the spiritual as a duality like you do, then if other gods manifest themselves in the lives of their worshipers since they can not be your "God", then they must be your "Devil". No matter what they do you must view it as a preamble to an evil purpose.. If not, then one of the underpinnings of your faith would be false.

Blessed Be, Dur

So, you have no sin. Tell me, is it alright to lie in Wicca?

Durthorin

October 9th 2008, 06:04 PM

So, you have no sin. Tell me, is it alright to lie in Wicca?

Whatever you do will return to you threefold. In my faith what is looked for is intent. If I lie for my own greed, then my greed will turn on me and I will suffer for it. If I lie to protect another from harm, then my intent is good.

Would it be a sin for you to lie to a husband searching for his wife hiding in your house when you knew that if he found her he would beat and possible kill her?

In my Faith if my intent is to protect and innocent then my Gods & Ancestors will judge me on that.

Would it be a sin in a business deal for you to tell the truth but omit something you were not required to tell him that would make your buyer walk away from the purchase if he knew?

An if my intent was to gain at another's expense I would be judged on that.. even if I did not lie.

One thing I forgot to mention in that prayer earlier is a line where I call upon my father now dead and my ancestors to walk with me and guide me so that what I do brings honor to my Gods and to my Ancestors.

Krusader

October 9th 2008, 06:07 PM

Whatever you do will return to you threefold. In my faith what is looked for is intent. If I lie for my own greed, then my greed will turn on me and I will suffer for it. If I lie to protect another from harm, then my intent is good.

Would it be a sin for you to lie to a husband searching for his wife hiding in your house when you knew that if he found her he would beat and possible kill her?

In my Faith if my intent is to protect and innocent then my Gods & Ancestors will judge me on that.

Would it be a sin in a business deal for you to tell the truth but omit something you were not required to tell him that would make your buyer walk away from the purchase if he knew?

An if my intent was to gain at another's expense I would be judged on that.. even if I did not lie.

One thing I forgot to mention in that prayer earlier is a line where I call upon my father now dead and my ancestors to walk with me and guide me so that what I do brings honor to my Gods and to my Ancestors.

So, basically you're into Karma and situation ethics. I've noted the link betwen Hinduism and Wicca, actually. You need to study Thomas Aquinas to get some answers to your questions.

Durthorin

October 9th 2008, 07:37 PM

So, basically you're into Karma and situation ethics. I've noted the link betwen Hinduism and Wicca, actually. You need to study Thomas Aquinas to get some answers to your questions.

I have no questions my own faith does not answer. Mostly I seem to be answering yours. Hinduism and most polytheistic pagan faiths have certain commonalities. Then again we have differences as well.

Blessed Be, Dur

Krusader

October 9th 2008, 08:49 PM

I have no questions my own faith does not answer. Mostly I seem to be answering yours. Hinduism and most polytheistic pagan faiths have certain commonalities. Then again we have differences as well.

Blessed Be, Dur

The questions you are answering are about you personal belief system. I'm not seeking your theological opinion in Christian matters. But, thanks for the responses. Interesting.

Ex Nihilo

October 9th 2008, 08:52 PM

Ah, don't mind me ... I'm fairly short of temper anyway with my teeth having recently been yanked (got 29 teeth pulled on the 10th). Usually I'm at least a bit more patient.

Sorry, Darth ... chalk it up to sore gums.

This thread is three years old and I don't see a single comment asking why on this good earth did you get TWENTY NINE teeth pulled?

Not being mean, being serious here... heroin? That's the only way I can think of.

technomage

October 10th 2008, 07:46 AM

So, you have no sin. Tell me, is it alright to lie in Wicca?

"Sin" is a human concept--and one that is a grave error. There is nothing that a person can do to separate them from the Creator. Even you, who do not know our Gods, and have forgotten your own, are indwelled by the Goddess.

That is not a statement you will accept or agree with, but it is true.

technomage

October 10th 2008, 07:49 AM

This thread is three years old and I don't see a single comment asking why on this good earth did you get TWENTY NINE teeth pulled?

Not being mean, being serious here... heroin? That's the only way I can think of.

:hehe: Back when I was abusing drugs, I messed up my liver, and went for a while with horrible calcium absorption--which in turn, really weakened my teeth. I had to get some of them pulled and just decided to pull the lot. :gummy:

Ex Nihilo

October 10th 2008, 09:25 AM

:hehe: Back when I was abusing drugs, I messed up my liver, and went for a while with horrible calcium absorption--which in turn, really weakened my teeth. I had to get some of them pulled and just decided to pull the lot. :gummy:

Craziness. It seems you got out of that, and I am glad to hear it.

technomage

October 10th 2008, 09:43 AM

I've been clean 19 years this last June. "Craziness" doesn't even begin to cover it--"abject stupidity" is closer, but doesn't quite catch all of the nuances of idiocy.

Krusader

October 10th 2008, 10:46 AM

"Sin" is a human concept--and one that is a grave error. There is nothing that a person can do to separate them from the Creator. Even you, who do not know our Gods, and have forgotten your own, are indwelled by the Goddess.

That is not a statement you will accept or agree with, but it is true.

I know the only God Who exists, YHWH, the I AM WHO I AM. The God of Abraham, and Jacob, and Moses, and Isaiah, and the One Who took on flesh and went to the cross to pay the sin penalty. Sin is very real, and has very real consequences.

technomage

October 10th 2008, 11:06 AM

I know the only God Who exists, YHWH, the I AM WHO I AM. The God of Abraham, and Jacob, and Moses, and Isaiah, and the One Who took on flesh and went to the cross to pay the sin penalty. Sin is very real, and has very real consequences.

As I said, that is your belief--and you believe many things. Your beliefs have no bearing on objective reality. (Mine don't either, by the way.)

Krusader

October 10th 2008, 02:44 PM

As I said, that is your belief--and you believe many things. Your beliefs have no bearing on objective reality. (Mine don't either, by the way.)

The Resurrection of Christ was a defining moment in history - and that is an objective reality.

technomage

October 10th 2008, 02:48 PM

The Resurrection of Christ was a defining moment in history - and that is an objective reality.

Oh, and here I thought you were going to put me on ignore. You didn't. How sweet of you.

The resurrection of Christ is a Christian myth. You're welcome to it, but it makes no difference to me or to my beliefs.

Krusader

October 10th 2008, 06:36 PM

Oh, and here I thought you were going to put me on ignore. You didn't. How sweet of you.

The resurrection of Christ is a Christian myth. You're welcome to it, but it makes no difference to me or to my beliefs.

And, if it isn't a myth?

I put you on ignore on CARM. You're getting your sites mixed up. This particular forum is for witches, so I don't think I need to.

I'd really like for you to see what this Phd. says about the resurrection, and refute it if you can:

http://www.askelm.com/doctrine/d071101.htm

Durthorin

October 10th 2008, 07:23 PM

And, if it isn't a myth?

I put you on ignore on CARM. You're getting your sites mixed up. This particular forum is for witches, so I don't think I need to.

I'd really like for you to see what this Phd. says about the resurrection, and refute it if you can:

http://www.askelm.com/doctrine/d071101.htm

That would be this guy? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernest_L._Martin

Background in meteorology

Ernest L. Martin attended grade and high school in Exeter, California (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exeter,_California) and graduated from the College of the Sequoias (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/College_of_the_Sequoias) in Visalia, California (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visalia,_California) which specialized in meteorology (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meteorology). From 1950 to 1954 he was a member of the United States Air Force (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Air_Force) who sent him to the University of New Mexico (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_New_Mexico) to further his education in meteorology and following this he then became a weather forecaster (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weather_forecaster) in Greenland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenland). He spent another year working at Lowry AFB (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lowry_AFB) working in research and development for High Altitude studies at Denver, Colorado (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denver,_Colorado).

Ambassador College

During 1955 Ernest Martin became a supporter of the ministry of Herbert W. Armstrong (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herbert_W._Armstrong) and the Radio Church of God (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_Church_of_God) (later known as the Worldwide Church of God (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worldwide_Church_of_God)). He attended Ambassador College (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ambassador_College) at Pasadena, California (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pasadena,_California) in 1958 and later transferred to the campus in England (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/England). He was ordained as a minister of the Radio Church of God in 1959 and continued with his studies at Ambassador College to finally earn an unaccredited Ph.D in education during 1966. From 1960 to 1972 he taught history, theology and elementary meteorology at the Ambassador College campus in Bricket Wood (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bricket_Wood), England where he became Dean of Faculty.

Krusader

October 12th 2008, 10:19 AM

In case you weren't aware of the fact, Armstrongism has now moved into the Christian camp. Regardless of his connection, his argument is sound.

Durthorin

October 12th 2008, 12:33 PM

In case you weren't aware of the fact, Armstrongism has now moved into the Christian camp. Regardless of his connection, his argument is sound.

My point was you attempted and "Argument from Authority" i.e. "I'd really like for you to see what this Phd. says about the resurrection, and refute it if you can:" Now the point of the evidence is that his education is in meteorology and that the Phd. that you stress is from an unaccredited institution in Education, Not in any subject that would lend itself to be supportive of the point your trying to make. In short, strip away your argument from authority and this might as well read "Bob says:"

An frankly there is nothing there that has not been taken issue with over time. I could put down my beliefs for why I don't believe it, but those refutations are valid for me, not for you. The points he makes he supports primarily with your Bible which you see as the "Word of God" thus without dispute for you. You and I therefore start from different points. Yours that the Bible is infalliable, mine that its just a book written by the early members of your faith.

But if you wish to pick out what you think its strongest point is I will happily go over why I believe it to be less than "Truth".

Blessed Be, Dur

technomage

October 12th 2008, 02:31 PM

And, if it isn't a myth?

Isn't that rather like asking "If my aunt had testicles, would she be my uncle?"

That sounds crude, but the point is well-made: one can say "And if" until the cows come home, and that doesn't change anything. The Bible is a collection of myths.

I put you on ignore on CARM. You're getting your sites mixed up. This particular forum is for witches, so I don't think I need to.

Oh, not mixed up in the slightest, dearie--you put me on ignore over there, but continue to make snide comments addressed to me because you're too much of a coward to address me directly.

I'd really like for you to see what this Phd. says about the resurrection, and refute it if you can:

http://www.askelm.com/doctrine/d071101.htm
Don't argue by link--start a thread and make the arguments yourself.

Krusader

October 12th 2008, 07:10 PM

Isn't that rather like asking "If my aunt had testicles, would she be my uncle?"

That sounds crude, but the point is well-made: one can say "And if" until the cows come home, and that doesn't change anything. The Bible is a collection of myths.

Oh, not mixed up in the slightest, dearie--you put me on ignore over there, but continue to make snide comments addressed to me because you're too much of a coward to address me directly.

Don't argue by link--start a thread and make the arguments yourself.

Interestingly, tech-Eiler, the only one making snide remarks is you, which anyone can plainly see. You can continue with your nastiness and call me coward, ignorant, etc. I don't really care, because your opinion of me is meaningless. However, what you believe about Jesus will determine your eternal destiny.

Krusader

October 12th 2008, 07:11 PM

My point was you attempted and "Argument from Authority" i.e. "I'd really like for you to see what this Phd. says about the resurrection, and refute it if you can:" Now the point of the evidence is that his education is in meteorology and that the Phd. that you stress is from an unaccredited institution in Education, Not in any subject that would lend itself to be supportive of the point your trying to make. In short, strip away your argument from authority and this might as well read "Bob says:"

An frankly there is nothing there that has not been taken issue with over time. I could put down my beliefs for why I don't believe it, but those refutations are valid for me, not for you. The points he makes he supports primarily with your Bible which you see as the "Word of God" thus without dispute for you. You and I therefore start from different points. Yours that the Bible is infalliable, mine that its just a book written by the early members of your faith.

But if you wish to pick out what you think its strongest point is I will happily go over why I believe it to be less than "Truth".

Blessed Be, Dur

Well, at least you had the courtesy to review it. And thanks. I'll get back to you on what I think are the most significant argumets for the resurrection.

technomage

October 13th 2008, 08:24 AM

Interestingly, tech-Eiler, the only one making snide remarks is you, which anyone can plainly see.

That is an outright lie on your part. (Citations provided: 1 (http://www.christiandiscussionforums.org/v/showpost.php?p=3653929&postcount=140), 2 (http://www.christiandiscussionforums.org/v/showpost.php?p=3653444&postcount=133))

You can continue with your nastiness and call me coward, ignorant, etc. I don't really care, because your opinion of me is meaningless.

More than opinion--substantiated fact, dearie.

However, what you believe about Jesus will determine your eternal destiny.

No more (and no less) than what I believe about Santa Clause. And no, that's not mockery--that statement is as as serious as life itself.

Krusader

October 15th 2008, 03:55 PM

That is an outright lie on your part. (Citations provided: 1 (http://www.christiandiscussionforums.org/v/showpost.php?p=3653929&postcount=140), 2 (http://www.christiandiscussionforums.org/v/showpost.php?p=3653444&postcount=133))

More than opinion--substantiated fact, dearie.

No more (and no less) than what I believe about Santa Clause. And no, that's not mockery--that statement is as as serious as life itself.

That's no lie. You not only wanted to go back to Egypt, you are living there now.

As far as No. 2 goes, I stand by ever word, which was not addressed to you, by the way.

technomage

October 15th 2008, 04:03 PM

That's no lie. You not only wanted to go back to Egypt, you are living there now.

The lie was that you made no snide comments.

As far as No. 2 goes, I stand by ever word, which was not addressed to you, by the way.

it was still a lie.

Krusader

October 15th 2008, 06:55 PM

The lie was that you made no snide comments.

it was still a lie.

You're very quick to throw around words like ignorant and liar, aren't you? But just so people know what we're talking about, here's the song from Keith Green which I thinks squarely addresses your predicament:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nf3Sm1tmdSA

Listen to it again, and stop already with the nasty comments.

technomage

October 16th 2008, 07:23 AM

You're very quick to throw around words like ignorant and liar, aren't you?

And you're very quick to throw around terms such as hypocrite, anti-christ, and betrayer, yet you see no problem with such behavior when you do it.

Listen to it again,

I didn't listen to it the first time, and will be refraining now, thank you very much.

and stop already with the nasty comments.

Carol, why is it that when you oppose my actions, you're "opposing witchcraft," but when I oppose your actions, using the precise same techniques that you use, I'm making "nasty comments"?

The long and the short of the matter is this, Carol--you do some of the very same things you chide me for--such as "nasty comments--and do further things I refrain from because they are wrong--such as lying. You act in a manner contrary to the Bible but find it acceptable to do so because it's you doing so.

You are completely and utterly transparent. You do not give a tinker's curse about whether or not those you disagree with get "saved," your only concern is that you are right, and they are wrong, and your only technique is to heap derision on those with whom you disagree.

I've stopped feeling sorry for you at this point, Carol. At this point, sometimes you amuse me, and sometimes you bore me. I will never trust you again--doing so once was an error on my part that I will not be repeating.

You are a phony. And as far as I'm concerned, the Gospel you preach is just as phony as you are. There are Christians whom I will take seriously, and to whose words I will pay attention, even if those words contradict my understanding of the world around me. Please do not ever deceive yourself that you are one of them.

In the meantime, if you're pleased to go on deriding the people with whom you disagree, I'm pleased to return your efforts in kind, unless I have something better to do.

Krusader

October 16th 2008, 03:56 PM

Cu Mhorrigan

October 16th 2008, 04:43 PM

I find it amazing that People are so insecure about their OWN religion that they have to butt into a friendly conversation (That ended months ago) and gripe about things that they have no control over.
Nice Job making Christians Look stupider Krusader!
Jesus has a Happy hat just for you...As long as you don't mind the word Dunce written across it.

Krusader

October 16th 2008, 05:25 PM

Cu Mhorrigan

October 16th 2008, 05:56 PM

No thanks, I tried your jesus and found His people to be too obnoxious to be around them for ever...

Krusader

October 17th 2008, 05:37 PM

No thanks, I tried your jesus and found His people to be too obnoxious to be around them for ever...

Or, was that an excuse? I've heard this same excuse before. If you didn't like the group of Christians you were worshipping with, go elsewhere. Don't turn to mythological deities and forbiden practices.

Cu Mhorrigan

October 17th 2008, 10:07 PM

tmancour

October 20th 2008, 10:19 AM

Now you've added a new word to your nasties: phony. I recall, Justin, that I'm the one who is still here posting away, combating heresy. Maybe not perfectly, but consistently. You can call me ignorant, dumb, unsaved, or what have you..............but phony, I'm not. You don't know me, my personal life, or what I do and do not do. You only know that I challenge your belief system, speaking truth to error. Sorry, Justin, but that is my ministry. You may hate and despise me, Justin, but I still will pray for your salvation, and hope that one day soon I can call you brother. I don't hate you at all Justin, "I just want to see you there."

This is a new song for you, Justin: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exQAD74YOUA&feature=related

For the record, by coming here you are not combating heresy. Heresy is a violation of a religion's covenants by a practitioner. With a marginal few exceptions, we don't practice Christianity here and do not revere Jehovah in any important way. What you are doing here is prostheltyzing.

Just wanted to clear that up.

Arion the Blue
High Druid of Durham

tmancour

October 20th 2008, 10:20 AM

Or, was that an excuse? I've heard this same excuse before. If you didn't like the group of Christians you were worshipping with, go elsewhere. Don't turn to mythological deities and forbiden practices.

We did go elsewhere. The loving embrace of the gods of our ancestors. They're just as mythological as Jehovah, and they're a lot more welcoming. And they don't go around smiting and forbidding. That's just tacky.

Arion

Durthorin

October 20th 2008, 11:27 AM

Or, was that an excuse? I've heard this same excuse before. If you didn't like the group of Christians you were worshipping with, go elsewhere. Don't turn to mythological deities and forbiden practices.

In my case I came to a crisis of Faith an called out to the God of Heaven and the Goddess, the Goddess answered. I have not turned from Her and She has been with me through all the trials since. She is far from myth.

Blessed Be, Dur

Krusader

October 22nd 2008, 06:50 PM

In my case I came to a crisis of Faith an called out to the God of Heaven and the Goddess, the Goddess answered. I have not turned from Her and She has been with me through all the trials since. She is far from myth.

Blessed Be, Dur

Did it ever occur to you that God had given you an answer, and you just didn't like it or recognize it. And when you kept on seeking other answers - others answered.

Krusader

October 22nd 2008, 06:52 PM

For the record, by coming here you are not combating heresy. Heresy is a violation of a religion's covenants by a practitioner. With a marginal few exceptions, we don't practice Christianity here and do not revere Jehovah in any important way. What you are doing here is prostheltyzing.

Just wanted to clear that up.

Arion the Blue
High Druid of Durham

Wiccans/Witches are always coming to Christian sites - I suppose they want to proselytize people to their gods and ghouls. Who knows. But, I'm not proselytizing, I'm combating the darkness occultism brings with it, and the dangers.

Krusader

October 22nd 2008, 06:53 PM

Why Not? You did, You worship a god that was worshiped by Shepards and Later Mass Murderers, dictators, Liars, Adulterers, Child Molesters, Whores, Thieves and Drug Addicts. And those are the ones IN the church.
My gods are just as real as Yours and in Many ways they do alot more for me than your bitter sexually frustrated Sky God.

And you worship demonic personages posing as "gods" and "goddesses." Don't you understand that there is only ONE True God, and these other beings are not Him.

Durthorin

October 23rd 2008, 10:07 AM

Did it ever occur to you that God had given you an answer, and you just didn't like it or recognize it. And when you kept on seeking other answers - others answered.

Yes, an I prayed about that and spoke at length with my Pastor. The trail was not easier, nor quicker. But in the end it was true to my spirit and has given me peace. All men do not walk the same path nor do they follow the same gods. I found my way home, I can but hope you found yours.

Brighid Bless, Dur

Durthorin

October 23rd 2008, 10:09 AM

And you worship demonic personages posing as "gods" and "goddesses." Don't you understand that there is only ONE True God, and these other beings are not Him.

But in that we see you as incorrect, there is *not* one true God. There is the God you follow and the Gods we follow. An what is true is that your God is not our Gods. In your theology you accept these others as well.. you simply define any who are not your God as lessor and evil. This is your way. But it is not a truth only a matter of your faith.

Brighid Bless, Dur

Durthorin

October 23rd 2008, 10:17 AM

Wiccans/Witches are always coming to Christian sites - I suppose they want to proselytize people to their gods and ghouls. Who knows. But, I'm not proselytizing, I'm combating the darkness occultism brings with it, and the dangers.

I asked myself long ago why I came here, this is the only Christian site I do come to. At first I came as a test of my faith. It is only by listening to those like you and your arguments that I was able to strengthen my own faith. So in that I will say it was selfish. I also thought that I would find in discussion with Christians a way to find common ground. A way that Christian and Pagan could look to one another and not see an enemy. In that I will say I have found Christians with whom I can talk, converse and who do not see my as a "demon worshiping baby eater" at the same time I have seen and spoken with many such a yourself. To you what you "see" is what you wish to see and you will not see past that perception. That is your choice and while there is no doubt good in you as well, that choice will always be an example to those of my faith why one should beware of Christians. You come to fight but your arguments are founded not on what is but on what you believe they are, you do not listen when Pagan's in good faith try to correct you. As I said before, you talk *at* us, not *to* us.

Brighid Bless, Dur

Krusader

October 23rd 2008, 12:00 PM

I asked myself long ago why I came here, this is the only Christian site I do come to. At first I came as a test of my faith. It is only by listening to those like you and your arguments that I was able to strengthen my own faith. So in that I will say it was selfish. I also thought that I would find in discussion with Christians a way to find common ground. A way that Christian and Pagan could look to one another and not see an enemy. In that I will say I have found Christians with whom I can talk, converse and who do not see my as a "demon worshiping baby eater" at the same time I have seen and spoken with many such a yourself. To you what you "see" is what you wish to see and you will not see past that perception. That is your choice and while there is no doubt good in you as well, that choice will always be an example to those of my faith why one should beware of Christians. You come to fight but your arguments are founded not on what is but on what you believe they are, you do not listen when Pagan's in good faith try to correct you. As I said before, you talk *at* us, not *to* us.

Brighid Bless, Dur

My opinion has always been that witches/wiccans/occultists should not be allowed on a Christian site. This is because this belief system is especially dangerous and repugnant. The Bible counsels against this particular form of sinful cultism and charges us to have nothing to do with it, at the very least. The God of Israel especially abhorred witchcraft, as I'm sure you knowl

But, since I don't own this site and do not control who is or is not here, I still think that witchcraft must be addressed and analyzed by the Word of God. Christianity and Witchcraft have absolutely no common ground, for light and darkness can have no fellowship whatsoever.

I would urge you to come to Jesus, repent of your involvement with false gods, and be cleansed by His precious blood.

Durthorin

October 23rd 2008, 01:54 PM

My opinion has always been that witches/wiccans/occultists should not be allowed on a Christian site. This is because this belief system is especially dangerous and repugnant. The Bible counsels against this particular form of sinful cultism and charges us to have nothing to do with it, at the very least. The God of Israel especially abhorred witchcraft, as I'm sure you knowl

But, since I don't own this site and do not control who is or is not here, I still think that witchcraft must be addressed and analyzed by the Word of God. Christianity and Witchcraft have absolutely no common ground, for light and darkness can have no fellowship whatsoever.

I would urge you to come to Jesus, repent of your involvement with false gods, and be cleansed by His precious blood.

:smile: I have been there, I have done that.. For 8 years I followed your path I think it is now closer to 30 in my Pagan walk and I have neither heard nor seen anything that would draw me from my path only that which has strengthened me. But you have said all that needs saying in your world view. To you I am a creature of darkness and a cultist. An there can be no common ground between us. As I said, there is something worthwhile in everyone, in some it is simply buried deeper than others.

Brighid Bless, Dur

Krusader

October 24th 2008, 06:15 PM

:smile: I have been there, I have done that.. For 8 years I followed your path I think it is now closer to 30 in my Pagan walk and I have neither heard nor seen anything that would draw me from my path only that which has strengthened me. But you have said all that needs saying in your world view. To you I am a creature of darkness and a cultist. An there can be no common ground between us. As I said, there is something worthwhile in everyone, in some it is simply buried deeper than others.

Brighid Bless, Dur

How sad that nobody comes over to visit you guys. I find that Christians aren't particularly involved in witnessing to witches/wiccans. However, I do hope you guys won't shut yourself off from the Gospel of Christ. If He did rise from the dead, then that is something worth considering. I believe He did.

Cu Mhorrigan

October 26th 2008, 02:45 PM

How sad that nobody comes over to visit you guys. I find that Christians aren't particularly involved in witnessing to witches/wiccans. However, I do hope you guys won't shut yourself off from the Gospel of Christ. If He did rise from the dead, then that is something worth considering. I believe He did.
Let's put it to you this way, I for one couldn't really care less about your need to "Witness" us...For the most part we have found a religion that works best for us and people, like myself, who came out of your toxic brand of religion think that is is nothing more than you needing to validate your religion to Us even thought it really doesn't affect us what you believe. The problem I (since I can't really speak for other pagans) have is your blatant arrogance and willingness to distort what we believe in order to demonize our religion. It has become abundantly clear that you have no real interest in us or in discussing Wicca/Neo-Pagan beliefs, but rather to get us to grovel at your feet and worship your bitter, angry, sexually frustrated, genocidal maniac of a Sky God. And if you are really honest with yourself, you will have to admit that some of what you said has nothing to do with "Truth" but rather your need to have the center of attention directed towards you. In short, you come across as a very nasty and vindictive attention-whore when you insult our religion on a thread that had absolutely NOTHING to do with you.
You see, my dear Krusader, People like you are the reason I got sick and tired of christianity and the down right negative energy people like you resonate that makes me truly disgusted with fundamentalist christianity. Please don't insult Our intelligence by pretending to care about us Wiccans and Pagans. To you it is a game of conquer the infidel, and Many of us see right through it.

Durthorin

October 26th 2008, 05:30 PM

Lepidopteryx

October 27th 2008, 08:05 AM

How sad that nobody comes over to visit you guys. I find that Christians aren't particularly involved in witnessing to witches/wiccans. However, I do hope you guys won't shut yourself off from the Gospel of Christ. If He did rise from the dead, then that is something worth considering. I believe He did.

I've had evangelists come to my door - they get freaked out when I answer it skyclad.

I have many Christian friends - they don't attempt to convert me, and I don't attempt to convert them. Several of them even attended and participated in the house blessing ritual I held when we bought our new house. A few responded to the invitation saying that they didn't feel comfortable participating in or even observing a Pagan ritual, and I hold no hard feelings toward them for it. In fact, I appreciate their honesty, as their discomfort would have injected negative energy into the ritual. I told them that the house-warming party would start as soon as we had put away the blessing tools, and they came for that portion of the evening.
Visitors who come to my house for the first time often hae questions about my altar (which I make no attempt to hide from view), I explain to them the significance and meaning of the items on it and their arrangement, and they respect it as sacred space.

Krusader

October 30th 2008, 07:36 PM

I've had evangelists come to my door - they get freaked out when I answer it skyclad.

I have many Christian friends - they don't attempt to convert me, and I don't attempt to convert them. Several of them even attended and participated in the house blessing ritual I held when we bought our new house. A few responded to the invitation saying that they didn't feel comfortable participating in or even observing a Pagan ritual, and I hold no hard feelings toward them for it. In fact, I appreciate their honesty, as their discomfort would have injected negative energy into the ritual. I told them that the house-warming party would start as soon as we had put away the blessing tools, and they came for that portion of the evening.
Visitors who come to my house for the first time often hae questions about my altar (which I make no attempt to hide from view), I explain to them the significance and meaning of the items on it and their arrangement, and they respect it as sacred space.

If you are answering your door naked, you are a sick person. Also, you are probably violating the law.

Seri

October 31st 2008, 05:01 AM

If you are answering your door naked, you are a sick person. Also, you are probably violating the law.

Just because you find your own humanity and that of others to be morally objectionable does not mean that anyone else necessarily does the same. There is potential for legal issues, but I hardly think that the law would indicate that someone is a "sick person." The law is not a moral agency, but an enforcement of existing moral agencies.

Lepidopteryx

October 31st 2008, 09:24 AM

If you are answering your door naked, you are a sick person. Also, you are probably violating the law.

As long as I am INSIDE my house naked, I am not breaking any laws. I like being sans clothes, and often hang around my house in a state of undress. I have a legal right to do so.
I always look to see who is at the door before I answer it, and I only answer it skyclad when I see strangers with Bibles, the Book of Mormon, or copies of The Watchtower in their hands standing my doormat. Otherwise, I throw on a robe.
Quite frankly, I consider it incredibly rude and presumptuous for a total stranger to come to my house in order to tell me how I should relate to the Divine.

Cu Mhorrigan

October 31st 2008, 09:40 AM

And you worship demonic personages posing as "gods" and "goddesses." Don't you understand that there is only ONE True God, and these other beings are not Him.
Again, You assume that My Mythology has anything to do with yours, All you are doing is proving the myth that Christians are self righteous bigots who crap all over other religions to satisfy their elitist urges.
The universe is too dang big for me to believe that there is only one god/goddess and life is too diverse for me to believe that your bitter, angry, sexually-frustrated sky god and his Masochistic "Dead Jew on a Stick" Son are the only ones I should worship.

tmancour

November 3rd 2008, 10:26 AM

If you are answering your door naked, you are a sick person. Also, you are probably violating the law.

And if you pretend to indulge in ritualistic cannibalism once a week, you are a sick person. Takes all kinds.

Arion the Blue

Tasogare

December 19th 2008, 03:12 AM

And you worship demonic personages posing as "gods" and "goddesses."

Hah...wow, what? Bitter much?

My opinion has always been that witches/wiccans/occultists should not be allowed on a Christian site. This is because this belief system is especially dangerous and repugnant. The Bible counsels against this particular form of sinful cultism and charges us to have nothing to do with it

You're not very secure in your faith if you can't handle even the remotest sense of disagreement in your world, are you?

You see, my dear Krusader, People like you are the reason I got sick and tired of christianity and the down right negative energy people like you resonate that makes me truly disgusted with fundamentalist christianity. Please don't insult Our intelligence by pretending to care about us Wiccans and Pagans. To you it is a game of conquer the infidel, and Many of us see right through it.

I couldn't put it better myself. I've only been here for all of half an hour or so, and already someone like you is crawling out of the woodwork. I'd been raised Christian for twenty years, and it still disagreed with me. I found what I was looking for in Eris, the same warmth, protection, safety, everything family claimed I would find in their own God I found in Her.

Since then I've become even more religious than most in my family, only in my own way. I am even training to become a priestess, something that I could not do in my family's Christian faith. Being unable to dedicate myself so fully to the God that gave me such warmth, I couldn't imagine it. I love to give back to the gods what they've granted me, and that's just one thing that Christianity kept me from.

I've been more generous, more outgoing, more confident in general since finding my faith. If you can remotely, honestly say that is a bad thing, then I will be amazed. Your shroud of blind faith is even thicker than first expected.

Freya

December 19th 2008, 04:55 AM

Wow.. Krusader has done a great job of reminding me why I've refused to speak to my aunt, uncle or sisters since I turned 16... And I'd been thinking recently that I should look them up.. But you've done a great job of reminding me of the two zealots yelling at a girl who'd mother just died, telling her to stop worshiping demons and to stop giving into her sinful desires for members of the same sex.

Many thanks for the reminder, Krusader!

{Tim}

December 19th 2008, 06:20 AM

As long as I am INSIDE my house naked, I am not breaking any laws. I like being sans clothes, and often hang around my house in a state of undress. I have a legal right to do so.
I always look to see who is at the door before I answer it, and I only answer it skyclad when I see strangers with Bibles, the Book of Mormon, or copies of The Watchtower in their hands standing my doormat. Otherwise, I throw on a robe.
Quite frankly, I consider it incredibly rude and presumptuous for a total stranger to come to my house in order to tell me how I should relate to the Divine.
:hehe: well, it certainly would be somewhat distracting if I were to knock at your place and you answered the door completely starkers. But then OTOH, I doubt I would be holding a bible out in plain view, even if I was for some reason witnessing door-to-door (and in your country, at that).

But then, people I know have told me that they answer questions about their religious beliefs with "oh, I'm a satanist", just to shock the people doorknocking... :rofl: ... so I don't tend to get surprised by much any more. The worst I might do is raise an eyebrow at you. :hehe:

(Oh, and I don't think it's terribly rude to go around to people's places asking if they want you to explain your beliefs to them... what IS rude is if you don't go away when they say they aren't interested...)

Seri

December 19th 2008, 07:02 AM

:hehe: well, it certainly would be somewhat distracting if I were to knock at your place and you answered the door completely starkers. But then OTOH, I doubt I would be holding a bible out in plain view, even if I was for some reason witnessing door-to-door (and in your country, at that).

But then, people I know have told me that they answer questions about their religious beliefs with "oh, I'm a satanist", just to shock the people doorknocking... :rofl: ... so I don't tend to get surprised by much any more. The worst I might do is raise an eyebrow at you. :hehe:

(Oh, and I don't think it's terribly rude to go around to people's places asking if they want you to explain your beliefs to them... what IS rude is if you don't go away when they say they aren't interested...)

A large number of Neo-Pagans tend to believe that it is amoral to proselytize. Our general attitude is "we'll explain it if you ask us, but Neo-Paganism is a personal calling, not a revealed mystery." Essentially, only the Goddess and the God will call someone to faith in this view, and only if it is right and proper for that person to be called.

I realize that things are likely different in Australia, but in America, the overwhelming Christian majority is unwilling to even consider that there are other faiths. I've met someone who now responds to the street proselytizers by telling them, with a smile on her face, that she is a Pagan Priestess. The Christian Priests in particular are taken back by that. They never know what to say.

I understand that Christians believe that they have the right answers to everything faith related. Pagans tend to say "We're chasing Wisdom, catching it piece by piece, and know that it is a personal process." It's a severe theological disjunct.

technomage

December 19th 2008, 08:30 AM

A large number of Neo-Pagans tend to believe that it is amoral to proselytize.

I would say "It is considered unethical within many neo-Pagan paths," but as morality is defined by the cultyre (and American culture is overwhelmingly Christian), it's not actually against morality. Beyond that minor quibble, however, you make some splendid poinst, such as this one:

"We're chasing Wisdom, catching it piece by piece, and know that it is a personal process."

I hadn't heard it expressed that way before, but I do like it.

{Tim}

December 19th 2008, 08:51 AM

A large number of Neo-Pagans tend to believe that it is amoral to proselytize. Our general attitude is "we'll explain it if you ask us, but Neo-Paganism is a personal calling, not a revealed mystery." Essentially, only the Goddess and the God will call someone to faith in this view, and only if it is right and proper for that person to be called.

I realize that things are likely different in Australia, but in America, the overwhelming Christian majority is unwilling to even consider that there are other faiths. I've met someone who now responds to the street proselytizers by telling them, with a smile on her face, that she is a Pagan Priestess. The Christian Priests in particular are taken back by that. They never know what to say.Heh, your view sounds kinda like the Calvinist take on Christianity... God calls whom He wills. Chances are you won't get that many Calvinists at your door.
Anyway, over here it's mostly the overwhelmingly apathetic majority, as far as religion is concerned; most people don't mind if you "have religion" so long as you don't bother them with it when they're happy. Though I'll be honest and say that's something of a stereotype, and won't be true for everyone. Most people will just politely tell you to go away, though.

I understand that Christians believe that they have the right answers to everything faith related. Pagans tend to say "We're chasing Wisdom, catching it piece by piece, and know that it is a personal process." It's a severe theological disjunct.Actually, I like that statement. It's something that could fit very well within a Christian framework. However, being in pursuit of wisdom doesn't mean you can't know certain things to be true already... it's just that there is much more to be learned beyond the simple "God loves you and died for your sins".

(BTW, I wouldn't necessarily say Christians have the answers to 'everything'... although I guess in a sense *God* is the answer... but I mean that there are some things we haven't been revealed the answer to, because we don't need to know it or whatever.)

Tasogare

December 19th 2008, 12:33 PM

Essentially, only the Goddess and the God will call someone to faith in this view, and only if it is right and proper for that person to be called.

This seems very true. While I don't believe simply in one god or one goddess, Eris' calling was definitely much like that. I'd been seeing her name popping up here and there for years before I finally gave in and opened myself to the idea of polytheism. Every time I saw it it always stood out to me very heavily, and had me compelled to know more about her. If that wasn't a calling I don't know what is. (Why a goddess of chaos would be calling people, though, is beyond me!)

technomage

December 19th 2008, 02:08 PM

Why a goddess of chaos would be calling people, though, is beyond me!)
Eris as a "Goddess of chaos" is a very recent concept: she is actually the Goddess of Strife, and was called "the abhorred daughter of Nix" by Hesiod.

Tasogare

December 19th 2008, 02:42 PM

Eris as a "Goddess of chaos" is a very recent concept: she is actually the Goddess of Strife, and was called "the abhorred daughter of Nix" by Hesiod.

That's only one version of Eris. You seem familiar with Hesiod, so you should be familiar with the fact that he differentiated quite clearly between the "hated" Eris, and the daughter of Nix who is anything but abhorred, at least in Works and Days. Why he changed his tune in Theogony is beyond me, but I don't necessarily agree with it entirely.

Either way, I don't think Eris as a personification of Chaos is especially modern. She's always sown seeds of discord and chaos, nearly every time she shows up. xD

technomage

December 19th 2008, 03:01 PM

That's only one version of Eris. You seem familiar with Hesiod, so you should be familiar with the fact that he differentiated quite clearly between the "hated" Eris, and the daughter of Nix who is anything but abhorred, at least in Works and Days. Why he changed his tune in Theogony is beyond me, but I don't necessarily agree with it entirely.

Oh, I don't necessarily agree with it either--and indeed, I did not mean it as any form of critique of the theology. Call it pedantry on my part--I'm guilty of that once in a while.

Ok ... maybe more than "once in a while.: :teeth:

Seri

December 19th 2008, 10:04 PM

This seems very true. While I don't believe simply in one god or one goddess, Eris' calling was definitely much like that. I'd been seeing her name popping up here and there for years before I finally gave in and opened myself to the idea of polytheism. Every time I saw it it always stood out to me very heavily, and had me compelled to know more about her. If that wasn't a calling I don't know what is. (Why a goddess of chaos would be calling people, though, is beyond me!)

To clarify my position, when I say the Goddess and the God, I mean for two very distinct ideas to go along with the conception: first, that all goddesses are Goddess and all gods are God and, second, that the Goddess and the God are thoughtforms. My conception of cosmology is pantheistic and non-personal, but extremely complex. When I read that Eris called you, I take it to mean that the conception of traits associated with the name Eris (strife, discord, chaos, etc.) and an interpretation of those traits personified from the raw substance of existence more easily identified with you than other traits and personifications. More simply, we use personifications as interpretive tools, sort of the fulcrum and lever by which to move the universe. The concept here being that we cannot properly interact with that which we do not have a means of understanding.

A useful comparison is to a car. A mechanic, an interior decorator, a race driver, and the car's designer all have different interpretive tools by which they judge the car based on their individual preferences and values. I claim that the thoughtforms behind Goddess and God are interpretive tools by which to interpret the whole of existence.

As I've said elsewhere (including in-person discussions of such topics), I'm roughly 3 metaphysical steps from atheism. I just posit more extra-material forces than the average atheist.

Tasogare

December 19th 2008, 10:22 PM

When I read that Eris called you, I take it to mean that the conception of traits associated with the name Eris (strife, discord, chaos, etc.) and an interpretation of those traits personified from the raw substance of existence more easily identified with you than other traits and personifications.

No, not at all. I'm very much a "pan-polytheist." While I do believe that certain gods are the same simply given different names depending on the culture, I also believe in many, many different deities. The way I see it is they simply have their own jurisdiction, as it were. Thus why there can be various gods of the same "domain," depending on where one is in the world.

I admit this makes my thoughts on creation a bit vague, and I'm certainly still trying to figure out many things. I'm by no means completely settled in my beliefs. I've only been finding polytheism agreeable for the past three to four years, so there's still very much to learn!

Seri

December 19th 2008, 11:25 PM

No, not at all. I'm very much a "pan-polytheist." While I do believe that certain gods are the same simply given different names depending on the culture, I also believe in many, many different deities. The way I see it is they simply have their own jurisdiction, as it were. Thus why there can be various gods of the same "domain," depending on where one is in the world.

I admit this makes my thoughts on creation a bit vague, and I'm certainly still trying to figure out many things. I'm by no means completely settled in my beliefs. I've only been finding polytheism agreeable for the past three to four years, so there's still very much to learn!

What I meant when I said that is that I interpret such a statement in that way. Sorry if I was unclear.

Lepidopteryx

December 20th 2008, 09:33 PM

:hehe: well, it certainly would be somewhat distracting if I were to knock at your place and you answered the door completely starkers. But then OTOH, I doubt I would be holding a bible out in plain view, even if I was for some reason witnessing door-to-door (and in your country, at that).

Ah - a stealth evangelist. I can always identify the Mormons because they travel in pairs on bicycles, always dress in whie shirts, balck slacks and a tie, and they have those little name tags pinned to their shirts. The JW's (at least the ones I've encountered) also travel in pairs and always carry a satchel full of copies of The Watchtower.

But then, people I know have told me that they answer questions about their religious beliefs with "oh, I'm a satanist", just to shock the people doorknocking... :rofl: ... so I don't tend to get surprised by much any more. The worst I might do is raise an eyebrow at you. :hehe:

A reasonable response. Once, they offered to wait until I got dressed, I told them I had no plans to get dressed until I had to go to work in two days.

(Oh, and I don't think it's terribly rude to go around to people's places asking if they want you to explain your beliefs to them... what IS rude is if you don't go away when they say they aren't interested...)

If I wanted to be Christian, there are three Christian churches literally walking distance from my house - two on opposite sides of the street leading into one entrance to the subdivision, and one across the street from the other entrance to the subdivision. There is also a megachurch less than 5 miles up the road.
Maybe it's just me, but I would never dream of presenting myself at a stranger's home in order to check and make sure they're worshipping in the way I think is best.

tmancour

December 22nd 2008, 12:28 PM

Now you've added a new word to your nasties: phony. I recall, Justin, that I'm the one who is still here posting away, combating heresy. Maybe not perfectly, but consistently. You can call me ignorant, dumb, unsaved, or what have you..............but phony, I'm not. You don't know me, my personal life, or what I do and do not do. You only know that I challenge your belief system, speaking truth to error. Sorry, Justin, but that is my ministry. You may hate and despise me, Justin, but I still will pray for your salvation, and hope that one day soon I can call you brother. I don't hate you at all Justin, "I just want to see you there."

This is a new song for you, Justin: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exQAD74YOUA&feature=related

Point of clarification: if you are posting on this particular board, then you are not combatting heresy, because heresy refers to a willfull distortion of a particular creed. Since we do not adopt your creed, we are not heretics: we are heathens, and fiercly proud of it. We are not heretics. (some of us might be apostates, but that's between them and their former religion).

Thanks, keep up the infighting, it's entertaining.

Arion the Blue