Richard Carrier's Fight With a Demon!?

[jpholding]

This came as an interesting surprise while I was reading a chapter in Empty Tomb. Richard Carrier tells us about an experience he had -- which he chalks up as a hallucination -- of a "demon trying to crush my chest" that he fought with. As a preterist, I have every reason to doubt such a story myself, but it's rather fascinating as an example of how the paradigm governs the evidence:

...the experience felt absolutely real, and I was certainly awakem probably in a hypnagogic state. I could see and feel the demon sitting on me, preventing me from breathing, but when I "punched" it, it vanished. It is all the more remarkable that I have never believed in demons, and the creature I saw did not resemble anything I had ever seen or imagined before. So what was it? Supernatural encounter or hallucination? You decide.

One wonders how much this experience has affected Carrier's "evangelism" for the cause of anti-supernaturalism, to the point that he is even willing to misreport sources to garnish points.

[Meh_Gerbil]

This came as an interesting surprise while I was reading a chapter in Empty Tomb. Richard Carrier tells us about an experience he had -- which he chalks up as a hallucination -- of a "demon trying to crush my chest" that he fought with. As a preterist, I have every reason to doubt such a story myself, but it's rather fascinating as an example of how the paradigm governs the evidence:

...the experience felt absolutely real, and I was certainly awakem probably in a hypnagogic state. I could see and feel the demon sitting on me, preventing me from breathing, but when I "punched" it, it vanished. It is all the more remarkable that I have never believed in demons, and the creature I saw did not resemble anything I had ever seen or imagined before. So what was it? Supernatural encounter or hallucination? You decide.

One wonders how much this experience has affected Carrier's "evangelism" for the cause of anti-supernaturalism, to the point that he is even willing to misreport sources to garnish points.

I've talked to more than one person in college who has had similar -- actually identical experiences -- for whatever that is worth.

[Mark_S]

I've talked to more than one person in college who has had similar -- actually identical experiences -- for whatever that is worth.

:shudder:

[Meh_Gerbil]

I've also talked to people from India who claim that sort of thing isn't at all uncommon over there -- flying dishes and whatnot.

[NeilUnreal]

This is a common experience for people with various sleep disorders, major and minor, particulary sleep apnea. It also seems to occur every now and then even in people without any other discernable sleep disorder. The folk term for it in English is "the hag." The term "nightmare" is probably derived from an older name for the female demon the hag was thought to be.

It seems to be a purely physiological phenomenon.

-Neil

[Darth Executor]

This came as an interesting surprise while I was reading a chapter in Empty Tomb. Richard Carrier tells us about an experience he had -- which he chalks up as a hallucination -- of a "demon trying to crush my chest" that he fought with. As a preterist, I have every reason to doubt such a story myself, but it's rather fascinating as an example of how the paradigm governs the evidence:

...the experience felt absolutely real, and I was certainly awakem probably in a hypnagogic state. I could see and feel the demon sitting on me, preventing me from breathing, but when I "punched" it, it vanished. It is all the more remarkable that I have never believed in demons, and the creature I saw did not resemble anything I had ever seen or imagined before. So what was it? Supernatural encounter or hallucination? You decide.

One wonders how much this experience has affected Carrier's "evangelism" for the cause of anti-supernaturalism, to the point that he is even willing to misreport sources to garnish points.


:ahem:

I guess Carrier wants Jesus to incarnate again and punch him in the face before he'll believe in anything supernatural.

[technomage]

Dear heavens, you sound like Minn talking about Jinx ... or vice-versa. "Ooh, he picked his nose as a child, so he can't express an adult opinion today!" :lol:

C'mon, JP, it's too beautiful a day outside. Go walk the dog ... the exercise will do you good. :thumb:

[Piebald]

This is a common experience for people with various sleep disorders, major and minor, particulary sleep apnea. It also seems to occur every now and then even in people without any other discernable sleep disorder. The folk term for it in English is "the hag." The term "nightmare" is probably derived from an older name for the female demon the hag was thought to be.


Bingo. Apparently this has been happening to people for centuries.

Here it is depicted in renaissance art:


[attachment=1]
"The Nightmare


Waking dreams are unsettling.

This may also be the origin for Alien abduction stories. Which makes me wonder why Carrier (though he was in a state of mind with compromised reasoning) interpreted this as something supernatural rather than something "natural," like abductees do.

[Darth Executor]

Maybe it's not too late for him.

[jpholding]

Dear heavens, you sound like Minn talking about Jinx ... or vice-versa. "Ooh, he picked his nose as a child, so he can't express an adult opinion today!" :lol:

Well, you'd understand if you knew the history and all the nonsense I've had to deal with from him. :ahem:

C'mon, JP, it's too beautiful a day outside. Go walk the dog ... the exercise will do you good. :thumb:

Can't. It'll be raining like the plague here; tropical wave today. Besides, poor Toby is so small he has to take 10 steps for every one I take. The poor little guy is pooped within a block.

[technomage]

Can't. It'll be raining like the plague here; tropical wave today. Besides, poor Toby is so small he has to take 10 steps for every one I take. The poor little guy is pooped within a block.

Well, that's why I suggested it yesterday. :wink:

[Darth Executor]

Rain... I wish we got some of that. All we get is infernal heat.

[salvationfound]

Wow that is freakingly similar to the story of a child of a person I went
to school with. Course that story was even weirder with the friend claiming
the demon raped the child. But still I can't believe how similar it sounds.

[The Empty Hours]

Wow that is freakingly similar to the story of a child of a person I went
to school with. Course that story was even weirder with the friend claiming
the demon raped the child. But still I can't believe how similar it sounds.

I've heard of, and read about, quite a few similar stories (I've been interested in paranormal phenomena for a while). I wonder how psychological some of these cases are -- I'm guessing that some of the cases are psychological, while some are wholly supernatural phenomena. They tend to look alike sometimes -- I wonder if there's any definitive way of telling the difference? Interesting stories though...

One weird thing that has happened to me a number of times in sleep is an experience of being paralysed for what seems a very long time. It happens in the middle of the night, as I 'awake' to a semi-conscious state. I'm caught between waking and dreaming -- I am not fully aware in quite the same way I am now, but I am sure it's not just a dream either. I'm conscious at the time that I am at that halfway point. Simply put, I lie in bed and am unable to move. I strain and strain until I am sweating, but no matter how hard I try to control any part of my body, it remains rigid. Sometimes after a long time I can get a finger to move a millimetre or so. It's absolutely hellish and strangely terrifying, and my head races with panicked thoughts, especially the first couple times it happened. At the time I'm overcome with the intense fear that I'm going to be locked in this state forever. After a couple times, I had some hope that by going back to sleep again everything would go back to normal.
I would assume it can be chalked up to some simple psychological explanation -- I don't know what it is, though.

Anyone else ever have this happen, or have any idea why it happens?

As a preterist, I have every reason to doubt such a story myself

Excuse my ignorance of eschatology (and apparently, its implications), but why would a preterist disbelieve such a story? I wouldn't have thought that certain interpretations of Revelation would change a person's beliefs about demons. Clearly I am wrong

[technomage]

One weird thing that has happened to me a number of times in sleep is an experience of being paralysed for what seems a very long time.

This is actually a not uncommon phenomenon called "sleep paralysis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleep_paralysis)."

[The Empty Hours]

This is actually a not uncommon phenomenon called "sleep paralysis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleep_paralysis)."

Wow, snappy response! thanks

[technomage]

Wow, snappy response! thanks

You're more than welcome! :teeth:

I had a couple of episodes of sleep paralysis in my life when I was a teenager--they scared the heck out of me. However, back then I was on dexedrine for what they now call ADHD--I don't recall having any since I went off that.

[The Empty Hours]

Here's my favourite nightmare-related painting
btw, that Fuseli painting is stunning.

[The Empty Hours]

You're more than welcome! :teeth:

I had a couple of episodes of sleep paralysis in my life when I was a teenager--they scared the heck out of me. However, back then I was on dexedrine for what they now call ADHD--I don't recall having any since I went off that.

yeah, it's really no fun is it? The Wikipedia article you linked to lists it as hypnopompic paralysis, and says you need to move your eyes or try to twitch your extremities, which was my instinct at the time anyway (but which is very difficult to do). interesting stuff

[Ryokan]

I get sleep paralysis all the time, and doctor's can't seem to figure out why. All you have to do is wiggle your fingers and toes and in 10 minutes or so you are ready to go. It helps not to lay on your back sleeping, too.

[Bill the Cat]

I had a similar experience, although slightly different. You may say I'm :lolo: but it was very real to my wife and me

I woke up one night and could not speak. I felt like I was being choked. I tried to speak and sqiurmed enough to wake my wife (not the exorcist squirming up the side of the wall, mind you). She said that she saw an opaque figure kneeling over me and what looked to be hands around my neck. I managed to get the words "In the Name of Jesus" out, and immediately, I could breathe. My wife said at that exact time, the opaque figure vanished. Before I could explain what was happening to me, she said "Did you see that thing that was choking you?" We discussed it for about 5 minutes, then went back to sleep. To this day, I still remember that feeling and my wife says she remembers that figure vividly.

Call me coocoo for cocoa puffs or whatever, but I know that it was not in my mind because my wife experienced it with me. But I also know I can't convince anyone else that it was real, but I wanted to share my experience.

[technomage]

Call me coocoo for cocoa puffs or whatever

Bill I trust you, and I trust that you experienced something. That has absolutely nothing to do with your taste in breakfast cereals. :hehe:

[Ryokan]

I had a similar experience, although slightly different. You may say I'm :lolo: but it was very real to my wife and me

I woke up one night and could not speak. I felt like I was being choked. I tried to speak and sqiurmed enough to wake my wife (not the exorcist squirming up the side of the wall, mind you). She said that she saw an opaque figure kneeling over me and what looked to be hands around my neck. I managed to get the words "In the Name of Jesus" out, and immediately, I could breathe. My wife said at that exact time, the opaque figure vanished. Before I could explain what was happening to me, she said "Did you see that thing that was choking you?" We discussed it for about 5 minutes, then went back to sleep. To this day, I still remember that feeling and my wife says she remembers that figure vividly.

Call me coocoo for cocoa puffs or whatever, but I know that it was not in my mind because my wife experienced it with me. But I also know I can't convince anyone else that it was real, but I wanted to share my experience.
Silly Rabbit, Trix are for kids!

Seriously, that is strange.

[The Empty Hours]

I had a similar experience, although slightly different. You may say I'm :lolo: but it was very real to my wife and me

I woke up one night and could not speak. I felt like I was being choked. I tried to speak and sqiurmed enough to wake my wife (not the exorcist squirming up the side of the wall, mind you). She said that she saw an opaque figure kneeling over me and what looked to be hands around my neck. I managed to get the words "In the Name of Jesus" out, and immediately, I could breathe. My wife said at that exact time, the opaque figure vanished. Before I could explain what was happening to me, she said "Did you see that thing that was choking you?" We discussed it for about 5 minutes, then went back to sleep. To this day, I still remember that feeling and my wife says she remembers that figure vividly.

Call me coocoo for cocoa puffs or whatever, but I know that it was not in my mind because my wife experienced it with me. But I also know I can't convince anyone else that it was real, but I wanted to share my experience.


You ain't cocoa puffs or rice krispies or anything...I've heard a few times of that sort of thing happening. I absolutely believe you. You gotta wonder about the ones who don't know to call on Jesus, don't you? of all those random deaths in sleep or on the road, i wonder if 1% or whatever have supernatural causes?

I think it's good to be skeptical about some people's claims of supernatural experiences, cos there are many hoaxes, half-remembered untruths, unexplained psychological phenomena, etc. But there are also genuine supernatural phenomena that happen all over the world, on both sides of the fence (with Christians and with non-Christians)

[jpholding]

Here's my favourite nightmare-related painting


Good grief. It looks like Elvis surrounded by legions of his fans that are now bored with him. :glare:

[jpholding]

but why would a preterist disbelieve such a story?

Preterists believe we are now in the thousand years of Rev. and that Satan is currently bound (demons, too).

[Darth Executor]

Preterists believe we are now in the thousand years of Rev. and that Satan is currently bound (demons, too).

When did the thousand years start? And when do they end? I thought some of the "end time" prophecies were fulfilled in 70 ad (including Satan's bounding). But wouldn't the thousand years be over by now? Or is it symbolic?

[Meh_Gerbil]

Here's my favourite nightmare-related painting
btw, that Fuseli painting is stunning.

Me?

I'm still freaked out that he has a favorite nightmare related painting.
I guess I should pick on out.

*begins flipping through the big book of Salvador Dali*

[technomage]

Me?

I'm still freaked out that he has a favorite nightmare related painting.
I guess I should pick on out.

*begins flipping through the big book of Salvador Dali*

Melted watches and fuzzy spoons?

[A Cup of No]

When did the thousand years start? And when do they end? I thought some of the "end time" prophecies were fulfilled in 70 ad (including Satan's bounding). But wouldn't the thousand years be over by now? Or is it symbolic?

Most preterists view the thousand years as symbolic of Christ's reign which began at the Ascension. Christ's first coming broke in the kingdom of God and Satan's kingdom began failing at that moment (remember Jesus' words, "If I cast out demons by the finger of God, know that the kingdom of God has come upon you."). The "thousand years" end when Christ returns. Now, what happens inbetween now and then depends on your millenial position.

[The Empty Hours]

Preterists believe we are now in the thousand years of Rev. and that Satan is currently bound (demons, too).

Really? So your view is that demons can't interact with us at all during the symbolic thousand years? strange..

Good grief. It looks like Elvis surrounded by legions of his fans that are now bored with him.

:lol: that makes no sense, but for some reason i'm laughing

[The Empty Hours]

Me?

I'm still freaked out that he has a favorite nightmare related painting.
I guess I should pick on out.

*begins flipping through the big book of Salvador Dali*

hehe, that's little gothic emo deathwish me

i also have a top 10 demon paintings, favourite 20 serial killers list and an unnerving obsession with ABBA's first two albums

[/selfmockery]

favourite nightmare related painting
(just came out funny is all)

[A Cup of No]

Just a side note for Empty Hours: Not all preterists believe in the complete cessation of satanic and demonic activity. There is debate as to how much Satan is bound from doing.

[jpholding]

Darth, the Cup's answer is more or less my own.

Really? So your view is that demons can't interact with us at all during the symbolic thousand years? strange..

It is indeed if you've had Left Behind to chew on all these years. :teeth:


:lol: that makes no sense, but for some reason i'm laughing

Well, the guy looks like Elvis to me, and all those faces around him look like they're yawning. I guess they're supposed to be screaming but somehow it just doesn't look like that to me. :twitch:

[The Empty Hours]

Just a side note for Empty Hours: Not all preterists believe in the complete cessation of satanic and demonic activity. There is debate as to how much Satan is bound from doing.

OK, interesting. Looks like I'm going to be doing some digging through the Eschatology archives sometime soon :sigh:


It is indeed if you've had Left Behind to chew on all these years.

Hehe, touche.

And don't worry...I think Left Behind is as just cheesy as you do. It's just a new experience for me -- I've never encountered this concept before. All the supernatural activity I have heard tell of for my entire life -- I've entertained the concept that some of these people are liars/misinformed/confused, but not all of them. I could go into specific examples, but I won't... Suffice it to say that I cannot uniformly discount the experiences of people I trust.

Well, the guy looks like Elvis to me, and all those faces around him look like they're yawning. I guess they're supposed to be screaming but somehow it just doesn't look like that to me.

Maybe they are -- maybe they need sleep too. It's just a happy family snapshot, all 10 or so members packed into the one double bed together. How lovely!

[SkepticBoyLee]

Your body is paralysed during sleep so that you do not physically act out your dreams. Imagine a husband punching a wife because of a fight dream.

Anyhoo, sometimes something malfunctions. Your eyes are open yet that paralysis is still in effect. Also you are still half in your dream state of sleep. Hence the hallucinations.

It would be rare if you HAVENT had this happen in some form at some point in your life.

No little demon monsters here. sorry. I was always curious though. Why would the fallen angels look like monsters? According to that Bible book aren't they simply 1/3 of the legion of Angels who left with that cool Satan guy who helped all those rock musicians write all those cool rock songs?? Why would a fallen angel want to sit on peoples chests and choke them? Really. That strikes me as so silly. Also why would demons show themselves to non christians. If I saw one it would lend credence to Christianity for me.

Really? So your view is that demons can't interact with us at all during the symbolic thousand years? strange..


Curious. I find belief in demon monsters strange period.

[The Empty Hours]

Your body is paralysed during sleep so that you do not physically act out your dreams. Imagine a husband punching a wife because of a fight dream.

Anyhoo, sometimes something malfunctions. Your eyes are open yet that paralysis is still in effect. Also you are still half in your dream state of sleep. Hence the hallucinations.

It would be rare if you HAVENT had this happen in some form at some point in your life.
Really? I've never heard of anyone I know having it.
As for the husband punching the wife thing, yeah, I guess so, but sometimes people do act out their dreams. I heard of one guy who dreamt he could fly and stood up in bed and 'flew' straight out of bed onto the floor. ...not the best way to wake up!


No little demon monsters here. sorry. I was always curious though. Why would the fallen angels look like monsters?
How should I know?


According to that Bible book aren't they simply 1/3 of the legion of Angels who left with that cool Satan guy who helped all those rock musicians write all those cool rock songs??
:hehe: good call. Actually, the only songs Satan helped write are Limp Bizkit and Linkin Park's back catalogue. Oh, and also Queen's "Another One Bites the Dust". And Frankie Valli and the Four Seasons' "Sherrie". I hate that song.


Why would a fallen angel want to sit on peoples chests and choke them? Really. That strikes me as so silly. Also why would demons show themselves to non christians. If I saw one it would lend credence to Christianity for me.
To you, and other naturalistic intellectualising Westerners, sure. Maybe that's why you haven't! There are plenty of cases where knowing that a spiritual realm exists isn't exactly convinving proof for people that Christianity must necessarily be true.
Even in a simplistic understanding of demons, why wouldn't they want to kill people?


Curious. I find belief in demon monsters strange period.
To paraphrase, the greatest trick the demon monsters ever pulled was convincing the world they didn't exist :wink:

[Darth Executor]

It would be rare if you HAVENT had this happen in some form at some point in your life.

I haven't, but I've heard of it a lot.

No little demon monsters here. sorry. I was always curious though. Why would the fallen angels look like monsters?

Who knows what they look like. I just imagine them to look like evil regular angels.

According to that Bible book aren't they simply 1/3 of the legion of Angels who left with that cool Satan guy who helped all those rock musicians write all those cool rock songs?? Why would a fallen angel want to sit on peoples chests and choke them? Really. That strikes me as so silly.

I don't know, though I'd imagine that not all of the 1/3 legion is still under Satan's command. One could simply be having some fun. Not only that but it didn't have to be a fallen angel. There are other spirits too.

Also why would demons show themselves to non christians. If I saw one it would lend credence to Christianity for me.

Why? Christianity isn't the only religion that has demons.

[The Empty Hours]

Not only that but it didn't have to be a fallen angel. There are other spirits too.

Interested to know what you mean here

[Darth Executor]

Interested to know what you mean here

Read the bible.

Jdg 9:23 And God sent an evil spirit between Abimelech and the leaders of Shechem, and the leaders of Shechem dealt treacherously with Abimelech,

1Sa 16:14 Now the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD tormented him.
1Sa 16:15 And Saul's servants said to him, "Behold now, an evil spirit from God is tormenting you.
1Sa 16:16 Let our lord now command your servants who are before you to seek out a man who is skillful in playing the lyre, and when the evil spirit from God is upon you, he will play it, and you will be well."

1Ki 22:21 Then a spirit came forward and stood before the LORD, saying, 'I will entice him.'
1Ki 22:22 And the LORD said to him, 'By what means?' And he said, 'I will go out, and will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.' And he said, 'You are to entice him, and you shall succeed; go out and do so.'

There are more verses if you care to look.

[The Empty Hours]

Read the bible.

Jdg 9:23 And God sent an evil spirit between Abimelech and the leaders of Shechem, and the leaders of Shechem dealt treacherously with Abimelech,

1Sa 16:14 Now the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD tormented him.
1Sa 16:15 And Saul's servants said to him, "Behold now, an evil spirit from God is tormenting you.
1Sa 16:16 Let our lord now command your servants who are before you to seek out a man who is skillful in playing the lyre, and when the evil spirit from God is upon you, he will play it, and you will be well."

1Ki 22:21 Then a spirit came forward and stood before the LORD, saying, 'I will entice him.'
1Ki 22:22 And the LORD said to him, 'By what means?' And he said, 'I will go out, and will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.' And he said, 'You are to entice him, and you shall succeed; go out and do so.'

There are more verses if you care to look.


I was just reading the Samuel one the other day and wondering about it. But couldn't these just as easily be demons that God is using to achieve his ends (in the same way the Devil asked God for permission to test Job, and Satan asked permission to sift Peter as wheat)? Or what about the angel of death from God who killed the Egyptian children before the Exodus? Also, the Samuel one, where Saul gets an "evil spirit from the Lord" and can only be soothed by David's harp playing -- this actually makes more sense if you interpret 'evil spirit' to be depression or deep anger. It makes sense that Saul would feel that way in the context, and why would an evil spirit leave him alone because of music? The mood could also be said to be from God in the same way that God hardened the heart of Pharoah. I don't know, what do you think?

I'm not dismissing the possibility, but I'd just ask where non-angelic and non-demonic spiritual beings fit into a Biblical understanding? Who/what/where from? Interesting suggestion though

[Darth Executor]

I was just reading the Samuel one the other day and wondering about it. But couldn't these just as easily be demons that God is using to achieve his ends (in the same way the Devil asked God for permission to test Job, and Satan asked permission to sift Peter as wheat)?Or what about the angel of death from God who killed the Egyptian children before the Exodus? Also, the Samuel one, where Saul gets an "evil spirit from the Lord" and can only be soothed by David's harp playing -- this actually makes more sense if you interpret 'evil spirit' to be depression or deep anger. It makes sense that Saul would feel that way in the context, and why would an evil spirit leave him alone because of music? The mood could also be said to be from God in the same way that God hardened the heart of Pharoah. I don't know, what do you think?



A few problems:

First, the OT does mention devils, many times, as well as several types of demons (I found shades and satyrs after a quick search on e-sword). In the verses I mentioned they are not identified as demons. While the word used for spirit CAN mean emotions, some of them are clearly personified (like the one in Kings). In addition, the spirit in Kings is not identified as evil at all.

I'm not dismissing the possibility, but I'd just ask where non-angelic and non-demonic spiritual beings fit into a Biblical understanding? Who/what/where from? Interesting suggestion though

You'd need to ask God. ;) However, I don't see why the bible needs to give us a detailed outline of EVERYTHING God created. If God made more things than what He told us about, He is under no obligation to report everything He does to us, like Jesu said:

Joh 21:21 When Peter saw him, he said to Jesus, "Lord, what about this man?"
Joh 21:22 Jesus said to him, "If it is my will that he remain until I come, what is that to you? You follow me!"
Joh 21:23 So the saying spread abroad among the brothers that this disciple was not to die; yet Jesus did not say to him that he was not to die, but, "If it is my will that he remain until I come, what is that to you?"

[The Empty Hours]

A few problems:

First, the OT does mention devils, many times, as well as several types of demons (I found shades and satyrs after a quick search on e-sword). In the verses I mentioned they are not identified as demons. While the word used for spirit CAN mean emotions, some of them are clearly personified (like the one in Kings). In addition, the spirit in Kings is not identified as evil at all.

OK, interesting. If the word for spirit also refers to emotions sometimes, then that's the interpretation I'm going to go with, I think, in the case of the Samuel passage. So if the Kings one isn't identified as evil, couldn't it be an angel in the same sense that the angel of death in Exodus is an angel?



You'd need to ask God. ;) However, I don't see why the bible needs to give us a detailed outline of EVERYTHING God created. If God made more things than what He told us about, He is under no obligation to report everything He does to us, like Jesu said

'course not, but neither would it be sensible to assume that there are non-angelic and non-demonic spirit beings unless God has revealed this. I'm not saying there aren't, but have we got good enough reason to say there are?

[Darth Executor]

OK, interesting. If the word for spirit also refers to emotions sometimes, then that's the interpretation I'm going to go with, I think, in the case of the Samuel passage. So if the Kings one isn't identified as evil, couldn't it be an angel in the same sense that the angel of death in Exodus is an angel?

Could be, but malach (the word for angel) isn't used so it seems a bit of a stretch to assume it's an angel when it was not called an angel. In addition, the spirit was not "straightforward" like angels usually are, but instead was rather insidious. About Saul, the spirit in that case does not seem to be conveying any emotion on Saul's part, it's just tormenting him. If it had said something that "In Saul was an evil spirit and Saul commited <insert evil here>" it would make sense but the way it's put it seems to suggest that the spirit is not simply one of Saul's emotions like the spirit mentioned in Numbers 15:4





'course not, but neither would it be sensible to assume that there are non-angelic and non-demonic spirit beings unless God has revealed this. I'm not saying there aren't, but have we got good enough reason to say there are?

Yes, there are. I gave you verses where God uses some of them. If you're a preterist who thinks all demons are bound like JP it would be a reasonable explanation regardless.

[The Empty Hours]

Could be, but malach (the word for angel) isn't used so it seems a bit of a stretch to assume it's an angel when it was not called an angel. In addition, the spirit was not "straightforward" like angels usually are, but instead was rather insidious. About Saul, the spirit in that case does not seem to be conveying any emotion on Saul's part, it's just tormenting him. If it had said something that "In Saul was an evil spirit and Saul commited <insert evil here>" it would make sense but the way it's put it seems to suggest that the spirit is not simply one of Saul's emotions like the spirit mentioned in Numbers 15:4

ok, fair enough re 'malach'. But I don't see why Saul needed to commit an evil act in order for the 'spirit' to be counted as a mood rather than a demon.

What's in Numbers 15:4? is that a typo?





Yes, there are. I gave you verses where God uses some of them. If you're a preterist who thinks all demons are bound like JP it would be a reasonable explanation regardless.

Well yeah, if you interpret the verses you mentioned your way then there are. But the Bible makes it clear that angels are God's servants and demons (1/3rd of the angels) chose to rebel against God. Neutral/non-angelic/non-demonic spirit beings? I'm not ruling out the possibility, cos I agree that some of those OT references are pretty freaking weird, but they don't seem to fit in to the rest of the picture the Bible paints. There isn't even one verse that directly says there are non-angelic/non-demonic spirits

[Cynic Sage]

Just a side note for Empty Hours: Not all preterists believe in the complete cessation of satanic and demonic activity. There is debate as to how much Satan is bound from doing.

What, so then he's like a mob-boss locked up in the pen or something?

[Darth Executor]

ok, fair enough re 'malach'. But I don't see why Saul needed to commit an evil act in order for the 'spirit' to be counted as a mood rather than a demon.

Because it would show the fruits of that bad mood. As it stands, Saul is being TORMENTED by something.

What's in Numbers 15:4? is that a typo?

Yep, it should be Numbers 14:5. It's an example of a "mood spirit"

Num 5:14 and if the spirit of jealousy comes over him and he is jealous of his wife who has defiled herself, or if the spirit of jealousy comes over him and he is jealous of his wife, though she has not defiled herself,


Well yeah, if you interpret the verses you mentioned your way then there are. But the Bible makes it clear that angels are God's servants and demons (1/3rd of the angels) chose to rebel against God. Neutral/non-angelic/non-demonic spirit beings?

I don't even think it's a problem of interpretation. The bible could have said they are angels. They did not, they called them spirits. I don't know how much more straightforward it can get.

I'm not ruling out the possibility, cos I agree that some of those OT references are pretty freaking weird, but they don't seem to fit in to the rest of the picture the Bible paints.

What do you mean?

There isn't even one verse that directly says there are non-angelic/non-demonic spirits

Why would it say it? If it does not identify something as a demon, it's rather safe to say it isn't. How would this sound?

Jdg 9:23 And God sent an evil spirit who was not an angel/demon between Abimelech and the leaders of Shechem, and the leaders of Shechem dealt treacherously with Abimelech.

It's redundant and silly.

[The Empty Hours]

What, so then he's like a mob-boss locked up in the pen or something?

Actually that sorta makes sense. I've always imagined demons to be like vicious dogs held on a leash by God. Sometimes he loosens the chain and allows them to scare us a little or take a bite or two, in order to shape us to his ends and strengthen us. But they're never allowed to truly go wild.